Blogs Aug 30, 2010 at 9:49 am

Comments

1
Wow, it's kind of shocking how ignorant some women are about men.
2
i seriously don't get it. the guy was jerking off, watching porn. what's the big deal. certainly nothing to end a relationship over. give the guy some alone time for fucksake.
3
DTMFA.
4
Don't you ever feel like your wasting your breath?
5
I know that type of woman, and they're nuts. He'd be well rid of her, and should take the kids with him, as she'll just get worse as she ages.
6
Holy crap, that was depressing. Why can't my fellow straight women calm the hell down?
7
shit like this (and romantic comedies *shudder*) make me embarrassed to be female. we're not all psychotic shrews, I swear.

but the husband must have his own issues about porn if he's crying and apologizing rather than telling the wife to fuck off.
8
Yes, she's a delusional manipulative clueless bitch.

But he sounds pretty pathetic too. Crying? Because he got sorta busted with porn? What is he, 13 years old? The husband seriously needs to man up.
9
You gotta wonder if she is also this controlling with her children. Also I wonder if she thinks that the "porn" (fantasies) her husband runs in his head when he masturbates are her business too. She does sound totally unreasonable and batshit crazy. He should dump her to save his own sanity and for the sake of his children.
10
@7 - The husband's issue is that he lacks the self-esteem to stand up to a crazy, emotionally abusive wife. It's the same issue that compels some women to stick with their abusive husbands.
11
fact: if she got him off 1st thing every morning he'd never look at porn.
12
The core issue here, beyond porn, is that people are responsible for their own feelings & emotions. No one "makes you feel" *anything*. It is YOU who are feeling the emotion, and that's that. Everyone, on the Slog & elsewhere, either subtlety or explicitly, thinks that their emotions are a reaction to outside stimuli. If you've ever said "...make me feel," then this is you.

What's really happening is that your emotions are always sitting there, unexpressed, waiting for you to express them. Usually this takes some sort of outside stimulus. We do have the capacity to choose how we feel, but it is something that is rarely encouraged, let alone acknowledged. So people continue to live their emotional lives are the seeming mercy of whatever is going on outside them.

Both these schlubs are blaming outside forces for how they feel. The woman blames the man for her disgust, and the man blames some nebulous "addiction" for being horny. (Although Dan & I saw the same thing w/ that excuse-- it was said in an effort to mollify his wife, not as an honest expression of how he feels.)
13
@10: or he may be deeply ashamed of using porn and masturbating. which, of course, he shouldn't be. but somewhere along the line she picked up the idea that it's disgusting and wrong; it's likely he did too.
14
Y'know, all these women who can't stand for their men to look at porn seem to think that they should be enough. Personally, I'd _love_ to have a woman who'd satisfy 100% of my truly epic sexual urges. But it's just not realistic.
15
He's crying because he's going to lose his family when she up and leaves with the children. We live in a sex negative culture. It would be very difficult to find a marriage counsilor who wouldn't agree with her, much less a judge.

We could speculate that that the wife really couldn't care less about porn. This is possibly just a casus belli for divorce so that she can have the moral high ground, the child support money and not have to put up making accomadations to another equal adult in her life.
16
I love that i can totally tell my wife that I rubbed one out while she was at work.

I will never understand the squares.
17
Sigh. Physically sickened? Really? REALLY? Ugh.

Anyway, what? What's left to say? It's just sad. I feel the sorriest for the children.
18
@ 12, you're onto something, but "no one makes you feel anything" is too black and white. After all, if I kick you in the shin, aren't I responsible for your pain and resulting anger?
19
What a great excuse to destroy a family. "I'm sorry kids, I had to destroy our family because daddy masturbates."
20
@18: pain is not an EMOTION. anger in response to it is an emotion, and is natural, but you have a choice whether to feel it and act on it, or feel it and let it pass.

21
I agree: "Bitch be crazy." Well put, Savage.
22
@12

It sounds like you're projecting some personal issues here. emotions are "always sitting there waiting"? really? so if I'm happy with my girlfriend, but she cheats on me, those feelings of betrayal and sadness and anger were always there, just waiting to be expressed? No. She caused them. Her actions created them.

To say no one can "make" us feel anything (because we ultimately can choose exactly what to feel, how long to feel it, and how strong to feel it) is either a semantic issue over the word "make", or it's misrepresenting the very idea of emotions.
23
I was married to this bitch 7 years ago. The guy needs to get the fuck out of the marriage.
24
@15,

Why would a judge care?

@12,

That is nonsensical reasoning and is invariably the argument of people who seek to make excuses for shitty behavior. Leaving this specific woman and her husband out of it, the argument that only you can control how you feel lets all manner of abusers and users off the hook for their behavior.
25
Yikes. Hopefully they do end up separating. It's not just porn that many straight women go crazy about - it comes down to a root problem of insecurity that is rampant in young women, and it seems to be welcomed and justified and expected by the culture. Teach young girls how to do things on their own, teach them skills, foster their talents and promote the idea that looks aren't everything.
Most young women have no talents and are completely bored, and this leads them to doubt their self-worth and control a man by the only way they know how - his sexuality.
BTW, my boyfriend walked in on my masturbating while watching porn and after having a good laugh at what I was rubbing off to (girl-on-girl porn) we now have included it into our sex lives and everything is wonderful. As Dan has said before, pornography and masturbation make it possible most of the time for two people to remain committed to each other - men and women. My boyfriend is not and cannot be my ultimate sexual fantasy 100% of the time for the rest of my life. And I can't be his. But together we can explore each other's fantasies and (apart, as well, of course) and it helps us remain faithful.
26
Hey guys--

Listen, I don't claim to have it all figured out, but Max Solomon is doing a good job. It's our responsibility how we choose to react to *our* emotions.
@22 In answer to your rhetorical question, Yes. And our current models of how emotions/feelings interact is totally inadequate. Notice a lot of crazy around lately?
@24 You have it completely backwards. People blaming others for how they feel are the "people who seek to make excuses for their shitty behavior." If you think about it, my way of modeling the world puts the responsibility of people's behavior squarely on the person doing the behaving. Yes, it means that if someone manipulated you, then you allowed yourself to be manipulated. That's doesn't mean that person isn't a manipulating asshole-- they are. It also means that you're easily manipulated. Don't like it? Then stop being manipulated.

Yes, it's much easier to say than to do. I don't have it all figured out. But I'd much rather live my way, where I see hope, and not the way society likes to pass emotional blame around like an untreatable STD, where I'd always be at the mercy of big pharma, the media, therapists & advice columnists. (No offense, Dan :)
27
Women who freak out about porn can learn and grow and manage to accept it. I have seen it happen. It's indicative of deeper insecurity issues, though. Those won't necessarily go away; they might just die back a little and emerge somewhere else later down the line.

Still, give people some credit. Anyone can change and improve, and people who have been badly misled and poisoned by ridiculous, badly thought out societal expectations need an opportunity to grow up and get over it. Give 'em a chance before you DTMFA.

She's got it bad though, no doubt about it. "Physically sickened"? Why? I feel terrible for this woman. Someone sold her a really hurtful line of bull, and she bought it all, and now some harmless porn has left her feeling like her husband doesn't love her. That sucks.
28
@26

feelings that are a reaction to an event can't exist before the event takes place. and before you say, "You can be mad at someone if you THINK they cheated, regardless of whether it actually happened," you're not mad at the actual event, but rather your belief as to what happened.

but i do agree that those people were schmucks. and your theory holds true in a lot of cases. many people hide behind their emotions rather than exercising emotional self-control. but not all emotional reactions are voluntary, and therefore it is possible to "make" someone feel something whether they want to or not.
29
Porn is a proxy for the male 'harem impulse' present in most human men (and most social mammals, for that matter). Not all men (and not all male social mammals) have multiple sex partners, but the interest in that possibility is pretty much built in. It's gotta get channelled somewhere, and the illusion of a harem can work just fine. There are exceptions, of course, but there are also plenty of exceptions to the rule that babies aren't born with club feet.

Freaking out about porn is a proxy for the female 'fidelity impulse' present in most women (and most social primates) where females show a strong preference for males that (a) can provide resources and (b) won't suddenly divert all of those resources to some other female who wanders by. That aggressive impulse toward competition cannot be just 'turned off,' even when it's triggered by just the illusion of a competing female. Inside every porn-cruising male and irate bride is a horny chimp and a screeching chimpesse.

Neither of these impulses is reasonable or intelligent or in any way self-aware. As intelligent (sort of) animals, human beings try to place a reasonable veneer of argument over these much older impulses to explain them, but this reasoning is usually tangential to the actual triggers causing the emotions involved. ["Does it really kill you if I look at a little porn?"] ["I feel like you're betraying your vow to me and dismissing my feelings!"]

It's never gonna change, folks. All we can do is realize that our emotions don't make sense, but they're gonna happen anyway, and we ought to try and control 'em 50% of the way. Let the other guy or gal carry the other 50%. It takes a little work, but most people grow towards this realization. That's why most guys aren't as slimy as they were in high school, and almost all the good catfights happen IN high school.
30
"Do NOT be needy; be confident that you have as much to offer as she does. Allow personal time and space for you both, as well as time together. Forget your past "story," this woman isn't the same as the other and neither are the circumstances."

That woman's advices suuuhuuucks...
31
@6

Because most of them seem to be deeply insecure. Hence all the catty, cutting-down-other-women bullshit to make themselves feel better. Honestly, I have no idea how straight men and lesbians put up with these bitches. I can't stand 'em and there's A LOT of them out there. So glad I just deal with dudes. Just fuck 'em and feed 'em and it pretty much solves most problems.
32
@31. . . yeah my straight friends can be pretty wacky trying to mange that opposite sex relationship stuff.

You know there are women out there (ahem) that aren't straight, and don't find much interest in porn either.

Difference is, some of us just marry other like minded women. problem solved. back to work.
33
that's "manage" not "mange"

They're different. . . but under the context and circumstances, it's kinda' funny.
34
Not all straight women who don't like porn are batshit insane. This specific woman has ISSUES! And is batshit insane.

Me personally, I like to think I'm a relatively thoughtful and reasonable person.

I don't like porn.

To a certain extent, I totally agree with arguments for porn, and for watching porn etc. But there is a point when it stops being ok. The mainstream pornography that I have watched is incredibly misogynistic and degrading to women. The idea that female porn stars love their jobs and are just as involved in the business as men; and EARN as much as men is more an exception than a rule.

I honestly don't think that it is healthy for young men and women to watch that kind of porn because regardless of intention, and regardless of how smart said young person may be, it still instills a sense that it is in any way acceptable to treat women as objects. At least in a normative sense. If a woman is turned on by being treated as an object in her personal sexual script and is able to healthily express that, hey great! Me too!

I totally and heartily believe in sexual freedom. But the porn industry is a sick, exploitative business that needs to be regulated. Yes, I know it's better than it used to be but come on. What a high standard that is!

I am always impressed at how clear and thoughtful your advice is Dan, and I almost always agree with you. This time though, I'm starting to feel fed up. Can't you find a woman or man who ISN'T batshit insane and has a thoughtful, well-reasoned argument against porn instead of painting all us straight girls who don't like porn as either insanely insecure or just plain insane? I would really appreciate that.
35
The thing I hate most about women who think it's wrong for men to watch porn is that they foster the belief that it's ABSOLUTELY GROSS AND ABHORRENT for other women to watch porn.
36
@34 Women make more money in porn than the men do.
37
Mer-Mer, I understand your viewpoint; I have often enough encountered it in conversation with females, both in real life and here in cyberspace. But I disagree with your opinion, and I want to respectfully indicate why. I would appreciate it if you would comment back on my words. They are well-meant and hopefully no misrepresentation of either your or anyone else's feelings.

In order to see exactly what you don't like in the "mainstream porn" you've watched (porn is so varied these days, that any cursory look at a big porn site reveals literally hundreds of different categories, subcategories, and niches), you would have to give an example. Can you mention specifically something that you saw and found "demeaning, objectifying, humiliating" etc.?

Still, regardless of what exactly elicited this reaction from you, here are two thoughts:

(a) The reaction against "bad porn" is to produce and support "good porn" -- UNLESS you assume that ANY porn (i.e. any explicit graphic representation of naked people and/or sexual acts) is per se demeaning and humiliating (and in this case, why?). If (as I hope) you don't assume that porn per se is bad, then the problem is similar to that of introducing new voices in literature.

For most of its existence, literature was produced mostly by male writers; and in more conservative times, the roles female characters played in these literary works were often very limited. This has already changed to a large extent, though some things still remain to be done. Think about this: the fact that literature had lots of misogynistic (or at least female-excluding) expressions DOESN'T IMPLY that the solution is to give up literature (prose and poetry); the solution was to give voice to other people, read other authors (e.g. women), to create other kinds of stories, other roles for characters (while at the same time not throwing away the good things in the literature that existed up to then).

Why should it be any different with porn?

(b) The implied message -- that 'we copy what we see in porn' -- is a bit simplistic to me. While nobody disagrees with the idea that images in art (and porn is a form of art -- graphic depictions of our wishes, desires, fears, loves, anxieties, joys, thoughts...) can affect and change us, it is far from clear how this is achieved, and if there is a simple relationship between "content" and "effect". (Among others, Umberto Eco is famous for having suggested the idea of purposefully reinterpreting messages to mean the opposite of what their authors wanted them to mean, his "semiotic guerilla".) The 'reinforcement' theory that you seem to defend is simplistic; it is basically the principle that 'monkey sees and monkey does'. Humans have never been that simple.

As a consequence, I am willing to bet that making the 'bad' images disappear -- or making them inaccessible, so that no man or woman ever sees them -- is not going to change much about social stereotypes or the problems of either men and women. Personally, I would even predict it would make them worse (since what is never seen ends up becoming a bigger monster in our imaginations...).

(c) What exactly is 'humiliating'? Do you think that consensual BDSM sex -- which involves a number of 'humiliating' elements PRECISELY BECAUSE they are 'humiliating' (or else they wouldn't be erotic to those involved) -- is necessarily 'bad' or 'wrong', or has to reflect a real desire to harm others or be harmed by them? Shouldn't we look at the word 'consensual' instead? (There are plenty of images that are quite 'humiliating' and 'dehumanizing' and 'demeaning' to men in pornography; there is a whole multi-million-dollar niche -- femdom -- dedicated to producing such images. It's one of the most popular fetishes; I'd bet there are more men interested in being humiliated, or seeing men being humiliated, than there are gay men [the two may overlap].).

------

For the reasons sketched in my thoughts above, I disagree with the idea that "porn" (or even "most mainstream porn") is per se misogynistic and contributes to make women be treated like lesser humans. I hope you'll be willing to comment on any disagreements you may have with my ideas here (or answers to the questions I raised).

Finally, I would only like to say that I also don't agree that "straight girls who don't like porn [are] either insanely insecure or just plain insane". No -- there are other options. They may harbor misconceptions, or they may be misnformed about porn, and how men (and women) react to porn. Just like men who used to think women belonged in the kitchen, some straight girls (no doubt aided by a culture that is still mostly sex-negative -- all conservative bigots, Christian fundies, etc. will agree that 'porn is evil and satanic') end up believing in the demonization of porn. It is another case of 'thinking in stereotypes', I believe.
38
What I never understand is what did these women think that their boyfriends or husbands were masturbating to all these years? Even if it's not literally porn or pictures they're using, I think it's fair to say that most men can and do use their imaginations as sexual aides just as effectively. It's almost better that he uses porn, because at least that distances his sexual imagery from let's say- you're best friend. And ok, if you're best friend has nice legs or a nice butt or nice tits, well then, he's probably thinking about that too when he yanks it. For all you know, he's thinking about you and your best friend having a lesbian fling while you two are going at it missionary style. At least porn takes his mind off of getting it on with your hot coworker for awhile. It gives him a good outlet for the needs that you don't have the desire, time or energy to fulfill. It also lets him explore fantasies that he might enjoy theoretically, but not want to try in real life- let's say for example, because he doesn't actually want to lose you or get syphilis from a hooker, he just wants to yank it now and again, because it reminds him that he's still theoretically attractive to other women. I think that porn is actually way less personal than the fantasies he has about your sister, your roommate, your best friend or god forbid, even your mom (not my mom, but maybe your mom is a MILF- heh heh- stick that in your pipe and smoke it). Porn is somewhat of a non-issue, because if he's not looking at it on a computer screen, he could just as easily be fantasizing about it at any time during the day. You can't be the thought police with your man's dick. Either you trust him and believe that he loves you or you don't.

39
Ankylosaur: You make a lot of sense. I don't disagree with you on a lot of what you have to say and I don't have all the answers to your questions.

The porn I watched was a couple of years ago and it was Pirates: XXX and I have seen clips from some of the flicks my husband has watched, which was mostly girl on girl. (BTW, I respectfully explained my reasoning and concerns with him about porn and as far as I know, he doesn't watch it any more. Because we respect each others wants and needs and I provided him with an alternative!)
And I would like to clarify that I never said anything about humiliation. Mostly I was talking about my personal reaction to pornography that I have seen, and also how I feel when my husband watches porn. Which may make me insecure. I can admit that. And I can also admit that I don't have a wide repertoire of specifics against porn. It's not something that comes up a lot in my life, except when I read about it here! Which is mostly what my argument is: a lack of grace for people who may not agree.

The not insane ones that is.

a) I don't think that all representations of naked people and people having intercourse are wrong or icky or bad. I think we should definitely have new and more varied voices in the industry. And I never advocated that it should be gotten rid of all together. I should have been clearer.

b) I agree, you make sense. But I still feel uneasy about the impact it has on people. I'm having a hard time articulating the source of my unease though. Every time I try to explain it, it doesn't sound right. Maybe that's a sign, huh? :)

c) There is nothing wrong with BDSM as long as people are safe about it. I said nothing about BDSM, or humiliation.

I may be more influenced by our sex-negative culture than I thought or would like, but I still think that there are things about porn and the porn industry that are not healthy for our psyche. And I don't think I have promoted the demonization of porn. I mostly think that Dan is demonizing women who don't like porn. I am just looking for some moderation. But of course, we are all entitled to our own opinions, and this is Dan's blog, so he may post whatever he wishes. I am just trying to posit a different perspective.
But I appreciate your respectful response, questions and opinion ankylosaur!
40
Why does the issue of porn always spark a trollercoaster?
41
So the overall reaction here in this very sex-positive space is to jump all over this woman and call her a crazy, controlling bitch, etc. But the rest of the mainstream world is NOT this sex-positive space. Women like this woman react with craziness to the discovery of porn because of what they have been TOLD that it MEANS. The culture that most girls are raised in teaches an ideal of romantic love that means *any* outside sexual interest is a betrayal. It *means* that their partner doesn't love them enough, or doesn't find them sexually attractive enough, or is on a slippery slope to worse and worse behavior. (And bear in mind if an adult woman hasn't been exposed to porn before, it can be incredibly shocking. I was somewhere around 20 when I saw a XXX video for the first time and I was horrified before I was excited.)

Obviously, many of us learn at some point that these messages are simply not true. Or at least not necessarily true. But imagine that you've been in certain kinds of churches or subcultures your whole life, then you find this shocking thing and everything you've ever been told and will be told if you take it to your group, says that this is a Serious! Problem! It might be the beginning of the end of your marriage and family, and you may even have a responsibility to leave the marriage if he doesn't overcome this sin. (This is exactly what would happen in my extended family if a porn "problem" were discovered.) Well, it's no wonder that there is some serious overreacting going on (from our perspective). She's not reacting to the porn itself as much as what the porn represents (the destruction of her marriage).

So, dear Sloggers, before piling on this woman (who didn't write to Dan Savage for advice, after all), please consider the soup she's likely swimming in.

(Not that I think porn is an unalloyed good for society in general.)
42
I could see tolerating her weird overreaction to porn if not for one thing: SHE BROUGHT THIS UP IN EVERY SINGLE FIGHT THEY HAD FOR YEARS AFTERWARD? Seriously?

Run away, sir, run far far away!
43
"Castrating," "bitch," "hoping... he gets his balls back?"

Obviously it's not okay for a partner to be controlling and manipulative of a partner. But this is not because one partner has a dick. I assume the sexist vitriol is supposed to be somehow ironic, but that doesn't really redeem it for me.

I agree the letter writer is being unreasonable and unkind, but I'm not convinced this viciously gendered scorn adds anything to the discussion. @41's reflections seem more useful.
44
I think a lot of women who don't like porn fall into two camps: That of the letter writer, who sees porn as some sort of fundamental betrayal and moral failing, and the more intellectualized version of the woman who thinks it's wrong because it's degrading to women in general. The women in the first case *are* castrating, it may be a harsh term, but it's apt. In the second case, I think those women who see it as degrading are reading WAY too much into it. I think it's just a tool for men, plain and simple. I don't think they're planning on modeling future relationships on it, they don't think they'll end up with some pneumatically enhanced bimbo as a wife, they just like the visuals for a short time to get the job done. I'm pretty sure most men don't watch porn in the kitchen before work while they're eating their Wheaties, they don't watch it on airplanes, they watch porn the same way women use vibrators, for the most part: In private with a specific *goal* in mind. Criticizing men for watching porn is no different than criticizing women for using vibrators, they're just different tools.
45
44: There is a third category of women who don't like porn: the ones who take it personally. I.e., "You watch that stuff because that's what you REALLY wanted all along, isn't it? Why am I not good enough?"

Your answer still applies, though. Hon, It's not about YOU. And it's not about HER on the screen, either. It's about ME, looking at it and getting off all BY MYSELF. Alone. Really. The porn star isn't present in the room. It's just me. Porn is the visual equivalent of a vibrator.
46
I think this is linked to a sort of internalized misogyny. If you as a woman think you have a value that's only measured in sex (or doing other things for men), then of course you're going to freak out when it seems like men *might* be interested in other women for sex. These women brainwash themselves into believing that they have a spiritual connection with their husbands and that the husbands will only want them for sex ever and will be attracted to them forever and never leave them. Yes, it's stupid, but what is even more stupid is that they can't seem to brainwash themselves into thinking that they have worth in and of themselves -- not about what they provide for other people. Fortunately, this is fading with time. Feminism benefits everyone.
47
About mainstream porn being degrading to women: is that really the case? Are we talking about non-kinky porn here or are we talking about DVDs or something? Because on the internet, you can find just about anything (and your porn-watching men surely do). I think some women's studies people might get a weird view of things because they order some classic porn DVD's and call it a day. But how many people even watch those any more? The 'women's studies' perception of porn, I'll bet, is grounded in the 70's.

....or am I just kinky? I find all sorts of fem-dom and 'women loving it' stuff regardless of what I'm searching for online. There is less fem-dom (or women instigating) porn than male-dom porn, it is true, but if you want to change that, make a market for it!! Horny men will watch just about anything that's available. You aren't going to get rid of porn, so you might as well make it in your own image. Who knows, it could be a powerful tool for social reform.
48
I would love to see a study about women who feel truly devastated and threatened by porn and how often they have older or younger brothers who they are close to. I wonder if being able to observe the male porn dynamic in a beloved sibling promotes greater tolerance (if not understanding) for same behavior in other men who they love. Of course it wouldn't be a hard-and-fast rule, but there might be some interesting trends.

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