More interesting is that the flight attendant appears to have two faces.

Dr. Phil? George Bluth? Oscar Bluth?

What's wrong with the head ? and which one is the target of attention, the bald one or the other ? Not enough venom today I suppose. recoup soon.

I don't see a head in front of you.....

Is is a kid? A little person? Is the guy on the left a big fatty so he had to pay for two seats?

Steve Ballmer?

Yes, Dan, we get it. You're on an airplane. Yawn.

Well, @4, that's something that requires study, I think.

I would hypothesize that LGBT people in the Netherlands are still born into families that don't automatically accept them. And just because a society is tolerant or affirming of gay people, it doesn't follow that all members of that society accept or affirm gay people. There are homophobes in the Netherlands, some of them have children, some of their children may feel deeply conflicted by who they are despite having access to marriage licenses.

And, all things being equal, LGBT children are likely to experience a certain degree of estrangement from their families. We would expect that black kids, if they were randomly distributed through the population—if they were born to white families primarily (as most families in the Netherlands are white), and a certain percentage were born into families headed by racists (whether the racism was subtle and under the surface or brutal and overt)—might have higher suicide rates due to their life experiences, being raised by bigots, etc.

Gay people are randomly distributed through the population, and many of us—in the USA, Canada, Holland, Nigeria, Whereveristan—are born to people who are homophobic to lesser or greater degrees. It has impact, emotionally.

But we could go on like this all day—theorizing, speculating. I'd like to see the issue studied. I assume it has been studied, actually, and maybe someone out there has the time to dig those studies up. (Any Sloggers in the Netherlands know anyone who might have the research at their fingertips?)

I would be very interested in what science has to say about this phenomenon... as opposed to bigoted and anonymous trolls and/or Tony Perkins.

Pam's House Blend's Alvin McEwen has the trollbot covered here in "Another professor cries foul over religious right misrepresentation of research":
http://www.pamshouseblend.com/diary/8952…

I wouldn't say that life is easy for most people. Most people, to various degrees, suffer periods of depression. But if you have no support or if you have no dependents who would directly suffer your loss should you commit suicide, you might be more likely to carry it out. I have had both straight and gay friends commit suicide and in every case they had nobody depending on their survival.

You fly first class?

11, From where are you getting this information?

@8, it's already impossible to google up "suicide rates in netherlands" -- the results are all starting to point back to this wapo FAIL incident...! That's some strong google-fu you've got, Dan.

But here's the Statistics Netherland site: http://www.cbs.nl/en-GB/menu/home/defaul… and by a bit of poking around (suicide is spelled the same) I did find a spread sheet, but it looks like the breakdown is men/women. Someone who knows dutch might have better luck going thru this and seeing if they did a breakdown by sexual orientation or not.

@ 15 - There doesn't seem to be. But this link http://www.gk.nl/index.php?id=9&a=berich…
says that 9% of gay male youths and 16% of gay female youths have attempted suicide, and it generally paints a picture of a not-so-accepting population: 27% of the people find the idea of sex between men disgusting, for instance...

Funny: in Mexico, the governor of the state of Jalisco said last week that he thought homosexuality was "a bit disgusting" (le da asquito); this Monday, there were 53 charges against him with the state Human Rights commission...

Maybe that's the difference between tolerance and acceptation. Viva Mexico, cabrones!

http://archpsyc.ama-assn.org/cgi/content…

But some of this prevalent throughout all of western europe where homosexuality has been embraced and celebrated is way more frightening :

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20100909/hl_n…

The figures are alarming but somehow they're not worthy of videos or pleas from gays in positions of prominence. Leaving many to doubt the 'caring' about youth that grown gay men and women have been propagating recently.

Yahoo link seems broken,

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk…

@18, not as broken as whatever connection must at least once have existed between your head and your heart, dear.

Again, debunked:

Via email, Professor Sandfort said:

There is a difference between the U.S. and the Netherlands in terms of acceptance of homosexuality. That does not mean that there is no homophobia (and homophobic damage) in the Netherlands. It is not clear how difference in climate affects the prevalence of mental disorders. We don't know the final answers, but in the U.S. as well as the Netherlands, homophobia is related to mental health problems.

He also said that Griggs and others who use the study to claim that homophobia does not have an effect on negative lgbt behavior are clearly distorting his work:

They use data to promote their moral convictions without truly understanding what the issues are. They are not interested in understanding how people's lives are affected by their social environment.

http://www.pamshouseblend.com/diary/8952…

Ah, Loveschild. We thought you'd given up on your bile-ridden hateful comments. Where you been? A church conference?
How's your hate-filled Jeebus days? Good thing you're there to stick up for him, lest anyone think that gay people are like the rest of humanity.

@20 - probably travelling around protecting teens from anti-gay-discrimination discrimination.

(Actually the master's thesis probably needed more research)

The other way to approach this might be to come up with a not-hypothetical population that resembles gay children. Obviously black children aren't randomly distributed among white parents but I'd look at populations of disabled children (eg born to/distributed among abled parents) and look at general correlations between acceptance of the disability and the suicide rates in those groups. So if higher acceptance correlates with lower suicide rates when looking at groups of disabled or gay children that could furnish further information.

(I can't think of a population that's randomly distributed among non peers that are unknown until puberty or older, though.)

However that may run into similar difficulties (lack of research). I found this for the deaf population which suggests there's not many good studies out there: http://www.annals-general-psychiatry.com…

I know that mental disorders tend to be higher in these populations, but I'd say that's related to being defined "not normal" in a world very fiercely adamant that we all fit a "norm."

I'm sort of amused to see which ones here are providing backup links to their assertions and which ones are not...

You wanna show us your new zealand links? I showed you mine...

Also, @11: "The Netherlands lacks fundamentalist Christianity of the type..."

WRONG. They have just as high a rate, if not more, of orthodox religion than the US. And what "type" are you talking about?

You know, societies can be outwardly very progressive and accepting of homosexuality and still contain individuals and families who are homophobic and have a negative impact on someone's psyche. Britain has almost full civil equality, as do the Netherlands, Scandinavia etc, and none of these countries have the vast money-spinning Christian right organizations present in their culture that the US does.

But that doesn't mean there aren't homophobic people within these societies. There are large swathes of these countries, often, like in the US, rural and conservative, where being gay is not so accepted at all. Simply because publically shaming gays is not acceptable or very politically advantageous in public life does not mean homophobia does not exist within a culture, especially in schools. It is simply more covert.

@4, etc. You guys are so fucking funny with your post names. It's like they continue the posts! So funny.

I hope everyone knows to click the "Unregistered: Off" button at the top of the comments. Out of sight, etc. And if you don't feed the trolls...maybe they'll go somewhere else.

.

@1: I thought it looked a little like Christine O'Donnell. A witch! A WITCH! (or Loveschild).

Nice to have you back, Loveschild. You must have gotten the power turned back on in your double-wide.

@29: "Unregistered Comment" = Troll. I always leave that switch turned off.

Repost for those with Trollock. I am from NZ and while it is more accepting than many places, there is still quite a lot of homophobia and inequalities- gay couples are not allowed to adopt here, and kids also use 'gay' in a derogatory sense. Plus NZ is quite small so it can be harder to find a partner and loneliness may be a risk factor for suicide......Ima med student and we have done a bit about suicide which is slightly higher in the LGBT population, just like it is for other minorities here-such as Maori (NZs native people)

Re: The Netherlands, that seems surprising to me. The dutch people I've known have been very open, funny, unconventional, liberal, etc., including the very flamboyant Dutch owner of a flower shop I frequent (he talks about seeing his mum in Holland on a regular basis) so based on that very small amount of circumstantial evidence, well, colour me surprised. However, I have also noticed that in Norway, where we have other friends, while it's very progressive, there's also a real macho element to the men (we are vikings!), you know, "no sissy stuff" kind of talk, so maybe those gay kids who don't fit the macho mold are suffering. And yes, I know there's a big difference between Norway and Holland, but they're both outwardly progressive countries that might be more traditional than you'd think.

@24 - I like how this troll is defending his homophobia. "Gay people don't kill themselves because Christians like me say they are mentally deranged. Telling people they are damaged & going to hell has no effect on their mental being."

If you are trying to defend Christians, troll, you're making a mess of it. With you as an example, I'd assume that Christ went around preaching hate and intolerance.

@3 - Speaking of untrue Christians, so nice to see you back Loveschild. I was worried about you.

@37: Yeah, it is surprising. I think there is a different public/private divide there: broad support for a very liberal civil and political culture, but not necessarily great joy if your own kids turn out to be gay. So I've heard, anyway. I guess I can understand it in a way: I support freedom of religion, but I wouldn't be overjoyed if my best friend announced he was joining some wacko fundamentalist group.

And I love how the fundies are all, "well, we stopped jailing gays 5 minutes/25 years ago, why the hell aren't they over it yet?" Social change takes decades or centuries. It doesn't march in lockstep with changes to the law. Not that there isn't still legal discrimination. Look at how the legacy of slavery or women's disenfranchisement continue to be felt in the present. I know people whose whole lives have been shaped by the fact that their parents were prisoners of war. So suck it trolls, with your simple minds and your shrivelled black hearts.

Dan, you seriously need to stop doing shit like this. "Somebody's not pretty! I'm going to mock said person on a nationally read blog." The man just wants to get from point A to point B. Leave him alone.

Or are we supposed to be looking at the Flight Attendant? Ah, who the fuck knows.

Has anyone told you you travel a lot?

Homophobes keep posting so called "statistics", but can't seem to back them up with anything substantial.

42, Did Dan say remark about the bald guy, who is NOT the back of the head in front of him?

Also New Zealand is a very religious country. I've been there, and my brother and his family live there. They teach Christianity in schools. Which upsets my brother no end that the government wants to force there version of religion on his children.

Loveschild is back? Awesome! It's so entertaining making her angry.
I kinda missed her cute little picture. Wait til I'm done desecrating it.