I like your disclaimer. Good luck!

I hate when people say grace aloud in public. It always seems to me that they're trying to shame the people around them into doing it as well. Is it so hard to sit down, fold your hands, bow your head and silently pray?
Also, public displays such as that always make me want to have completely inappropriate conversations, loudly, just to annoy/upset/offend. I refrain but I sometimes just want to yell things like "premartial sex is such fun, don't ya think?". In deed I'm a pretty decent person but in my head not so much.

I accuse you of trashing the planet, by flying so much that you know there is naturally a long line at Starbucks.

And it's yet another part of the Bible that "Christians" ignore.

Matthew 6

Prayer

5 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
Matthew 6:6

But hey, it's just what Jesus said, so I suppose there's no real point in Christians paying attention eh?

i would never kiss a guy with a goatee.

Well on the bright side the dope ate a starbucks pastry, that's pretty much punishment in itself.

You just had to mix a showtune in there, didn't you. Now it is going to be stuck in my head all day.

@4 beat me to it ;-)

Enjoy the relative anonymity that allows you to discreetly observe the goateed rabble while you can, Dan. MTV is gonna make many more of these doofuses walk up to your Starbucks table and introduce themselves in the not-too-distant future.

@2, I completely agree. Except I sometimes don't refrain, and I don't call it premarital sex, I call it fucking. Hey, if I have to listen to things I find offensive (loudly and pretentiously saying grace), so do they. It's even better when they have younger kids with them.

I agree # 2. It always reminds me of the Hypocrites tearing their clothes on the street from the bible. Its like the christian version of getting served, which is appropriate, because those public prayers probably aren't allowed to dance

Fascinating. Just fascinating.

@11, fucking? You're trying to annoy a Jesus Freak with the f-word? YOu have to do better. Talk about enemas, creamed corn as a lubricant, fisting and "there was a little tearing, but she says it's better now". Maybe even a little "the good news is, I found my high school class ring".

If the guy had a goatee he was NOT Dopey. Dopey has no hair. However the guy behind him sounds just like Grumpy. Albeit, with good reason.

I should mention that I LOVE Dopey and Grumpy! The GF has a t-shirt that says "I'm Grumpy because you're Dopey"! Yep, love those guys.

Correct answer to the "What's in that?" question:

"Babies. Well, not whole babies. That'd be illegal. No, just those leftover bits."

Probably wouldn't wait until getting to his table to start praying.

My least favorite person at Sea-Tac is that annoying woman on the PA system who "would like to remind you that the City of Seattle is here to serve you" along with other inane announcements in the most cloying, stilted voice that's even worse than the annoying, stilted delivery of most KEXP DJs. Oddly, I have heard this same woman's voice on the PA in other airports. Who is she and why won't she shut up??

@ 14, living in NYC I've become completely desensitized to the word fuck. And pretty much any and all foul language. It's so common place here. Which is why I go for the "premarital sex" route. I would want to make sure to draw attention to my secular, immoral, non-Christian values without being crass. I think someone saying grace aloud in public would be more appalled if I talk about these things while being totally moderate in language, tone and temperment. Screws with their heads more than being over-the-top crass.
Not that I take issue with over-the-top crass. It'll upset them plenty.

@17, I feel your pain. I don't know how many times I've sat waiting at Sea-Tac or LAX listening to the shrill overamplified lady yelling about unattended bags and whatnot, over and over and over on a loop. After a couple of hours -- and what would a trip through LAX be without many, many hours of layover? -- one is reduced to a twitching wretch, where even the sound of someone shifting in his seat is like a living hell. Actually, I'm pretty sure hell IS LAX.

Bless you after a sneeze grinds my gears too. OH THANK HEAVEN MY SOUL DIDN'T FALL OUT, what ever would I be without that bless. XD

@8:

I'm not sure Gilbert & Sullivan, technically-speaking, counts as "show tunes" - Lerner & Loewe, definitely, but G&S?

@4:

I now want to have a bunch of business-sized cards printed up with that passage, just so that I can hand them out to these faux-pius religo-bitionists.

@14:

Throw in a few choice "Santorum" references, and I think you've got something there!

It's not butter, it's hydrogenated cottonseed oil.

The barista probably hated you for forcing him/her not to laugh in the guy's face...ha.

Public prayer, so many levels of fail. Glad I don't generally hear that sort of thing.

@20: That's why you cover your mouth when you sneeze silly! To catch your soul!

@ 23, having worked retail, I can assure you that having of one customer's assholishness/cluelessness called out by another customer was always welcome and never not appreciated.

@19 - That LAX Alaska terminal is the deepest pit of hell.

As a Starbucks barista, I wish I had something amusingly snarky to add. But if the barista was anything like me, neither the goateed dope (nor your response to the dope) got under her skin.

@4 ... pretty sure MLK said that first.

I can't help imagining this guy devouring the sermons at his local Mars Hill.

@27: Your restraint is admirable. Personally, during my four years at Starbucks, I would have comped Dan's drink for his pithy little display of solidarity against the Stupid. (Crumbs indeed!) God, there were times the choice was walk off the floor or leap the counter swinging a carafe of half and half. But then I'm not Zen like you SpaceGirl. :)

That's funny.

Yesterday I went to the best Indian buffet in the Puget Sound, India Combo on Kent East Hill.

There was a quiet couple in the booth next to me.

While I was shoveling goat curry onto my plate, before they ate, they held hands saying grace. He had a cast/bandage on, so she could grasp only the last segment of his fingers.

31, Says the person who spends hour after hour, day after day, angrily obsessing on Dan Savage.

What kind of question about any food is "What's that like?" It's like white food. It's like cake. It's like cinnamon toast. It's like macaroni.

The more important question is:

How do you make/where do you find that "does not equal" symbol on a keyboard?

Whenever anyone does that in line in front of me, I tell them whatever they're thinking about ordering is AMAZING!, and that they have to try it. Even if I know nothing about it. It makes everybody happy, keeps the line moving, and I get a little passive-aggressiveness out of my system.

@34: how about "ne", or "<>" ?

@34: or "!="

Fuck the grace part. Offense was rightly taken at the "what's in that?" bullshit, holding up the line. I hate self-centered dipshits like this.

@18

Yeh, it's a little different here in Seattle when everyone gets their panties all up in a wad when you say FUCK. And enough w/the "please" and "thank you's" and passive aggressiveness already, people. The East Coast needs to seriously kick this place in the ass and put some hair on its tiny bird chest.

@21 Let the punishment fit the crime, yo.

@34: Well, depending on the programming language it can be a variety of things including
<>
and also
!=

@30 you made me laugh out loud. In fairness, perhaps I'm speaking too soon; there's still plenty of time for me to evolve into a carafe-swinging maniac. Time will tell!

Well, aren't I slow off the mark.

Well, at least we don't have to wonder who will replace Andy Rooney as the crazy curmudgeon on 60 Minutes.

If he had been fat, you would have gone off on him, right Dan?

Dan, what you witnessed is the proof that a startling number of adults were apparently raised by wolves. Quality parents train their children at an early age to be aware of other people in public places, be respectful and conduct their business promptly.
Parents who view their children as burdens or trophies typically teach their children to be assholes by example. This guy probably had assholes for parents, and therefore has no clue that he has become one himself.

Dan, I really want to be your friend on Yelp!

@41: My store was special! I once found my manager sitting on the floor in the back room swearing that the place must have been built on a Native American burial ground. Good times.

Who says grace over Starbucks? "Thank you, Lord, for this bounty of shade-grown, fair-trade coffee I am about to inbibe, giving me strength for the faith-journey ahead. Thank you sweet, merciful Jesus for giving unto me this slice of pumpkin bread, even though it's a little a dry on one side, doubtless a reminder of the sacrifice you made to redeem mankind. Amen."

I get being annoyed at someone who holds up the line and inconveniences others. I don't get being annoyed simply because someone is praying in public. That does indeed strike me as intolerant, because tolerance would be to simply ignore it as meaningless to you.

#2, I don't understand this either: "I hate when people say grace aloud in public. It always seems to me that they're trying to shame the people around them into doing it as well." Or maybe it has nothing to do with the people around them at all? People say lots of things aloud in public, where others can hear them. I don't understand why a prayer is more offensive than anything else people say.

Those who think it would be funny to talk about fucking or fisting in front of other people's kids, just because of the praying? I hope your joking, but wouldn't assume. What you're proposing is not at all comparable--you do get that, right? The prayer affects you zero, while what you're proposing would be a rather unpleasant thing to do to the kids, don't you think? Why would you want to do that, regardless?

I think the saying grace in public is a form of self-flagellation and they are kind of hoping that someone will have a go at them for it so that

a) They can start preaching their fossilized 2000 year old dogma
b) They can feel that they have "suffered" for their belief
c) Feel morally superior for talking to the invisible magic man

All that pales into insignificance compared to expecting the barista to produce the recipe for every confection being sold. If you are that picky take your own damned food with you.

@49: Well Suzy I believe your question was addressed up thread with the citation of Matthew 6:6. It isn't really the praying that some are annoyed by per se. It's the being ostentatious about it. And I would debate your assertion that sitting next to some one praying loudly over their crumb cake would have zero effect on me. I mean I don’t care what they get up to in the privacy of their own homes but do they have to flaunt their lifestyle like that in public?
That being said, I for one wouldn't go out of my way to be vulgar in response. And neither did Dan.

@48: I like it! I may have to start praying sardonically in public!

@49: "...because tolerance would be to simply ignore it as meaningless to you." No, you're describing indifference, not tolerance. People can't find prayer unpleasant? The fact that you're not annoyed by public prayer doesn't mean others aren't. Who's to say child X will find a discussion of fucking/fisting unpleasant, if sie even understands it? You're making an awful lot of assumptions here. I, for example, think public prayer is funny and a little sad, though not annoying; I think discussions of sexuality are mostly boring and occasionally interesting, and I would in no way object to a/my child overhearing such a conversation, because I don't think there's anything wrong with or shameful/secretive about sexuality. It's absolutely comparable - the family next to me is doing something in public that I find objectionable (the way in which it affects me), and I do something the family finds objectionable (the way it affects them). How is that not comparable? As for why one would want to subject others to conversation they might find unpleasant, I can think of a few possible reasons: vindictiveness, joy in exercising free speech, a desire to force others to confront the fact that their values are not universal, a desire to force devotedly Christian parents to actually discuss sexuality with their children instead of perpetuating a socially-damaging culture of silence around it, a true belief in the ideas of "do unto others" and "an eye for an eye", a true belief in the idea that a free and open exchange of ideas from different perspectives is healthy for a society, etc.

It's hard for me to imagine who wouldn't be annoyed by that, except of course for other loud public prayers. It's kind of like whistling in public; that shit drives me insane. Why the hell does anyone want to make so much noise around so many other people? I'm not going to lie, I'd sign a petition against public whistling.

...What was I talking about? Praying loudly in public, yes. Annoying to anyone with common sense. I once heard a really cool priest say that he found it very annoying when, in conversation with another person, anytime he said "Jesus" the other would immediately say, "Praise Jesus!" The priest said he had to keep himself from responding with, "Well, yes, but could you wait until I'm finished speaking?" Point being, there's a time and a place.

@34: on a Mac hold down the alt/option key while typing the equal sign and voilà: #.

No idea how it's done in wintel world.

oops: ≠

"Babies. Well, not whole babies. That'd be illegal. No, just those leftover bits."

Thanks. I'd been wondering what was done with all those snipped off foreskins.

There's an older gentleman who's often seen at the local supermarket walking around half-assedly playing the harmonica. Kind of annoying, but in the grand scheme of things, not worth getting flustered about.

When someone starts to say grace, I just start eating. More for me!

Religion is like a penis: it's fine to have one, it's fine to love yours, but it's not polite to whip it out in public.

@ 38 My family came to NY from Italy in the early 1900s and so far I am the only person (beside my brother) who has moved away ( I live on the Hill). Every time I go back there I remember how everyone seems to say "please" and "thank you" and tip very well. Everyone seems polite. It may have to do with my strong Italian background (people respect their elders), or that I tend to ignore assholes. The thing about all the "pleases" and "thank yous" in NY is that they mean them. No passive aggressiveness. They will also give you a good "fuck you" to your face if you deserve it.

Many years ago I was a flight attendant for a major airline. There was one woman on the plane who was simply a C*** to the entire crew. There were two African American men sitting in the row behind her (sometimes, it just takes a person of color to sort things out for the white folks) After she had also been rude to me, before I could say anything, the following exchange took place (and very loudly, I might add)

AA # 1: "Waz wid hu?"
AA # @ "She a bitch!"

Everyone within earshot: Riotous laughter.

I don't know that I've ever been so glad to have friends I just met like that on the plane before or after.

@58: My god, if your church ever needs to locate you, they should be pointed to Savage's jock, where you're busily nomming away 24/7. Do you always get obsessed with men in positions of power, or is Savage your first big crush?

Er, nothing against Dan, but these trolls need to stop being ashamed of how they feel.

The person I hate the most is the big, buff flight attendant who sat down and prayed during takeoff and landing (in their ENTIRETY) - directly in view of passengers. I completely understand being nervous during those parts of the trip, but I fly once every couple of years and I showed less fear than this person who flies at least once a day.

@20: I fucking HATE bless you, but I'll say gesundheit. I don't understand why people can't just let a sneeze be a sneeze.

52, 53, 54, 55... Perhaps I'm interpreting this situation differently, but since the man was sitting right next to Dan, I assumed the perception of the prayer as "loud" was mainly a matter of their proximity. If he was actually booming out the grace in a voice loud enough that many people around could hear, then yes, I agree, it's totally understandable that people would be annoyed. However, this is the key: it's not annoying because of GOD, but because someone is being too loud. It would be just as annoying if he were reciting yesterday's baseball scores, or simply having a conversation with his wife at a volume distracting to the nearby patrons. And yet, the GOD part seems to be causing most of the annoyance here.

Why, I wonder? What's so terrible about saying grace, that it cannot be done in public without causing offense? People say stupid shit all the time, and unless you wander the earth in a constant state of annoyance with others (which I suppose is possible), I see no reason why prayer or grace is specially annoying.

Of course, it could be annoying if you have made a number of unwarranted assumptions, such as John's suggestion that "devotedly Christian parents" are silent about sexuality, or would claim that their values are universal. So then the expression of prayer is offensive because you believe that a lot of other things are being expressed along with it--except that, they're not! You merely decided that they were.

The other crucial point is, it would indeed be more annoying to discuss fisting around someone's small kids. Why are the two situations different? Not because of any inherent value in the subject-matter, but because of what we think parents should be able to decide on behalf of their children, and because of how it may (not necessarily, but very often, very predictably) affect the child listeners. Fisting crosses that line, but prayer does not. In the same way, it would be totally acceptable for the man to discuss his boyfriend or husband in front of the children, but totally offensive for someone to tell another person's children that they are going to hell because of their inadequate religious faith. See the distinction?

If the mere public expression of "thanks for the food, Lord" is so offensive to people, I submit the problem lies with them, just as much as the mere public expression of things like "John and his boyfriend went to Springfield..." should not be offensive.

@69 So parents shouldn't get to decide what their children hear about religion? As for what's so terrible about saying grace in public, why not ask the author of your bible? Considering that the bible itself explicitly forbids praying in public.

@68,

Even, "gesundheit", why?! Like you say, it's a fucking sneeze -- there's no other bodily functions that seem to require public acknowledgement, and we should do away with the idiocy surounding sneezing immediately. I work in an office full of morons, all of whom seem to revel in some sort of self-congratulatory butt-waddishness over saying "bless you", though I never do (acknowledge others sneezing) and it's always awkward if the sneezer is near me and I've not explained my radical position to them. God, I hate Christains.

If you need to pray over your Starbucks pastries, perhaps you should be bringing your food from home. It's kind of the way I felt about one theatre that had a tradition of cast prayers before every show - guys, if we really need to pray before every show, maybe we should have had another week in rehearsal.

For some reason, SeaTac seems to be infested with people who have Never Seen a Starbucks Before In Their Lives. I had some couple from the midwest in front of me a couple months ago who literally did not know what anything was, and kept asking, "what's in a cappucino? what's in a mocha? oh, maybe I'd like that - you want to try that, honey?" until I was about ready to stab them in the eye with a spork. I beg you, just go buy a cup of regular coffee at Mickey D's and get the fuck out of the way of the approximately 10,000 people who are about to go postal because they have not yet had their caffeine and you are further delaying its ingestion.

Not that I'm an addict or anything. I could quit anytime. I just don't want to.

@72: It's not an addiction Geni, it's an unmet need.

@69: I'd be delighted to see your reaction when someone opens a mosque, complete with call to prayer in your neighborhood.

@24- Don't cover you mouth! Use the Vampire Sneeze: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSqB0h8b4…

It's the hip new way to keep your soul from coming out and infecting everything you touch.

70/redwulf, it's interesting that people who are hostile to public prayers are nevertheless such excellent Biblical interpreters as to know for sure that Matthew forbids any public prayer! I don't interpret the text that way, actually. I interpret it as rejecting ostentatious displays of religiosity, for a number of good reasons. I don't think saying grace in earshot of other people qualifies on any of the relevant grounds in that text. If you want to discuss the Bible further, I suppose we could get into that--I find your reading a little too "fundamentalist" for my taste. Also interesting that you assume it's "my" Bible--what, nobody favors indifference to public prayer unless they're Bible followers?

...see, for example, #74, who points out that Muslims are often fond of public prayer. If I'm not a Muslim, I expect "tolerance" demands that I remain indifferent to the public prayers of Muslims, because they have nothing to do with me. Intolerance doesn't have to mean, contra Dan, that I actively interfere with the praying! As it happens, I find the Muslim "call to prayer" rather beautiful--at least, what I've heard of them. I like church bells too. Crazy.

"I am, as ever, the very model of a modern major tolerator. "

ROFL...I love this. I'm going to make it my new motto. The next time (probably tomorrow about 7:45AM) I feel like throwing a particularly stupid colleague off the balcony (I work on the 21st floor), I'm going to remember this. I, too, can be the very model of a modern major tolerator.

@76 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

If all they meant was don't be ostentatious why the direct instruction to go into your closet and shut the door? My main objection to public prayer is the number of Christians who expect everyone to follow their rules on sex while they proceed to flagrantly violate other biblical rules themselves.

@71 I always say bless you and I'm an atheist. I dunno! Maybe it was where I was raised, I feel it's rude not to say it when someone sneezes!

As for praying in public, I can't help but stare!!

@2: premartial sex? like shagging before you join the armed forces? ooh.

don't mind suzy, folks. she just can't seem to unknot her knickers.

@79,

Yeah, I think I did (say bless you) for a while also, and think I'd probably also attribute it to where/how I was raised. But then, I guess I feel as if we're obligated to re-examine some of those "virtues" we were raised with, in light of the worldly culture we're exposed to upon getting out to the rest of the world. The truth is it's NOT rude to not acknowledge bodily function, but an awful lot of people will certainly make you feel otherwise (and I know it's a broad & sweeping generalization to blame it on the Christains, though my particular department at work is where I notice it most prominently, and my co-workers seem to skew heavily toward the Christain & uneducated, for what it's worth.)

redwulf, I agree with the gist of this: "My main objection to public prayer is the number of Christians who expect everyone to follow their rules on sex while they proceed to flagrantly violate other biblical rules themselves." Christians have no business making demands about other people's sex lives, and they shouldn't be hypocritical about following their own rules. However, I disagree that "no public prayer" is a biblical rule, and I don't think it's your business to be laying down the rules of hermeneutics for Christians. Why should Christians read this text in the rather literalist way that you do?

First, the Matthew passage you mention appears in a longer section, the main point of which is to reject superficiality in religious expression in favor of a relationship between humans and the divine that comes from the heart. Standing up to be seen by everyone in the Synagogue, or praying on the street corner before an audience--these are the very opposite of the idea that you can successfully pray all by yourself in secret. The example of praying in a closet (and if you insist on literalism, do you happen to know what those lines say in Greek and what that means, exactly?) is crucial because it represents a totally different approach to communicating with God. The idea that God would know what you needed to say before you even bothered to utter some "special words", or that you could talk to God entirely silently and secretly, is novel and revolutionary in the religious context of that day.

If the goal of this speech was literally to prohibit public prayer, as you seem to think, then why do Jesus and the disciples pray in public on other occasions? Are pastors in constant violation of this rule? Yes, I can imagine grace being said in an ostentatious, just-for-show way. But for many people it's also a habit that they follow any time they eat a meal, and I wonder why it should cause so much offense to others when people do this.

The reason I bother to push back when I see a lot of comments like these is that the hostile reaction completely supports the cause of those who DO want to be ostentatious about prayer in public! Then it's easy to paint people who object to public prayer as the kind of people who would be irrationally pissed off just because someone says a quick grace in the hearing of others. Why not save the offense for times when people actually want to inflict the prayers on others, such as at a public school graduation? Or for when the prayer is actually judging, condemning, or influencing people who aren't interested in being involved? It's pretty sad when simply hearing the prayer, any prayer, is enough to offend and anger people. Yes, that's called "intolerance", and I don't understand why Dan keeps insisting that intolerance demands more.

Actually the Bible repeatedly says that Jesus sought out private places and prayed alone.

Mark 6:46: "And when he had sent them away, he departed into a mountain to pray."

Matthew 14:23: "And when he had sent the multitudes away, he went up into a mountain apart to pray: and when the evening was come, he was there alone."

John 6:15: "...he departed again into a mountain himself alone."

Mark 1:35
Jesus Prays in a Solitary Place

35 Very early in the morning, while it was still dark, Jesus got up, left the house and went off to a solitary place, where he prayed.

Matthew 26:36-44
Gethsemane

36 Then Jesus went with his disciples to a place called Gethsemane, and he said to them, “Sit here while I go over there and pray.” 37 He took Peter and the two sons of Zebedee along with him, and he began to be sorrowful and troubled. 38 Then he said to them, “My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with me.”
39 Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, “My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will.”

40 Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. “Couldn’t you men keep watch with me for one hour?” he asked Peter. 41 “Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.”

42 He went away a second time and prayed, “My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done.”

43 When he came back, he again found them sleeping, because their eyes were heavy. 44 So he left them and went away once more and prayed the third time, saying the same thing.

Luke 5:16
16 But Jesus often withdrew to lonely places and prayed.

Luke 6:12
The Twelve Apostles

12 One of those days Jesus went out to a mountainside to pray, and spent the night praying to God.

Luke 22
Jesus Prays on the Mount of Olives

39 Jesus went out as usual to the Mount of Olives, and his disciples followed him. 40 On reaching the place, he said to them, “Pray that you will not fall into temptation.” 41 He withdrew about a stone’s throw beyond them, knelt down and prayed

Honestly, you know what's running through my head when I read this?

Dan - you travel on planes a lot. Most likely you are some sort of "elite" member of an airline. So buy into the "elite" club membership. The beverages and comestibles are provided without cost, and you find an abundance of comfort, quiet and space. (Not to mention a considerably lower passenger-to-gate-agent ratio if you need help with your flights.)

Or, if you always fly Southwest (which doesn't appear to have a club), then just buy a one-time pass for another airline's club (or even a membership, probably saves you money in the long run, even at the outrageous, non-elite pricing). I am fairly confident that you can afford this. I know there are clubs for Delta - $50 for all-day access to Sky Club - and United - $50 for one-time access to Red Carpet Club - at Sea-Tac.

Oh, sometimes you get a chatty wife or kids of the experienced traveler who is the actual member...but mostly, you're among seasoned travelers who just want their coffee, a quick bagel, and to check their e-mail (or the Slog) before their flight. Inquisitive, praying travelers are pretty much kept to a minimum.

Problem solved, Dan...problem solved.

@76
I like church bells too, a lot, despite having attended Large Catholic University; and when I lived in Large Canadian City, I lived very near to the churches on the hill (and miss them terribly), which filled the air on Sunday mornings. I could also hear the muezzin from a nearby mosque from time to time. However, they're not prayers, they're calls to prayer, which can be observed by the faithful and provide aesthetic enjoyment to others. Church bells, like christmas carols and music, are public goods; prayer is a private obligation and a private good.

Rob, the fact that there's a lot of private prayer in the Bible doesn't mean that there's not also public prayer and in the Bible, nor does it mean that saying grace where others can hear it is prohibited or wrong. I'm all for private prayer, and indeed, on most occasions this is the way to go. The question is whether any exposure of your praying to others is some kind of violation, or should be considered offensive by others.

TokenCanadian, I didn't think it mattered whether they were prayers or not; the question was how I would react if someone opened a mosque, "complete with calls to prayer", in my neighborhood. Because you know, anyone who thinks it's okay to say grace in public is probably really intolerant of the religious expressions of other faiths? Well, honestly I don't know what motivated that strange comment. There is one particular public religious expression that does annoy me, and that's when a Native American burns sage in my office common area. It makes me sneeze and cough for hours, so, you know, seems pretty inconsiderate. If grace made people sneeze and cough, I'd agree that it should be a "private obligation". Or if it was really loud? Otherwise, I just don't know what reasons support your claim that prayer is a private obligation and good. I find loud Christmas carols annoying sometimes too. It does get to be overkill at Christmas sometimes, when some people may act as if everyone in the world necessarily appreciates their Christmas expression.

I wonder if the goatee dude is like me. If I'm in front of the "mad impatient dude" I like to slow it down even more...Is that glutent free?, whats the calories what about that one or that one ..couple minutes later "nevermind I'll have a large black coffee" Turn around and leave with a big smile on my face.

Helps to be 300 lbs and look a little crazy.

@89: Suzy. Please, by all means say grace before your meals in public or in private. It is a free country. But do not expect that every one with in ear shot to be overjoyed. All that you can reasonably expect is that they allow you to go about your business undisturbed, which, if you will recall, is precisely what Dan did. He did not interfere in Goatee Dude's prayers, nor make any comment, vulgar or otherwise, to annoy Goatee Dude. I am sorry if that isn't enough for you, but those who find praying in public to be in bad taste are under no obligation to change their opinion on the matter to suit you, or Goatee Dude.
Personally, I was raised to say grace, only before dinner and only in my home, or the homes of others, taking my cue, if a guest, from my host.

@82 Of course it's a fundamentalist interpretation. That makes it easier to counter fundamentalists with, and I'm pretty sure it's the fundamentalists (the same ones who only seem to care about Leviticus 18:22 and Exodus 22:18) who are doing most of the public praying.

@76: "...see, for example, #74, who points out that Muslims are often fond of public prayer. If I'm not a Muslim, I expect "tolerance" demands that I remain indifferent to the public prayers of Muslims, because they have nothing to do with me. Intolerance doesn't have to mean, contra Dan, that I actively interfere with the praying! As it happens, I find the Muslim "call to prayer" rather beautiful--at least, what I've heard of them. I like church bells too. Crazy."

Consistency is refreshing, at least.

Lissa, the fact that I'm defending saying grace in public as a basically inoffensive thing does not mean that I do it myself. You're welcome to find it in poor taste. What I don't understand is why people take special offense at it, or think it would be equitable to then talk about fucking or fisting in front of the praying-parent's kids. You're not recommending that, but others did. There's also this misconception that the Bible prohibits it, so it's hypocritical, but that's not true. Redwulf's approach to Biblical interpretation and Christians in general as if they are all mouth-foaming fundamentalists is not particularly constructive, because it tends to pointlessly alienate those who don't care so much about Leviticus and Exodus, and give more ammo to the fundies.

I get why Dan would be annoyed at a dude holding up the line for trivial reasons, but I do not understand why he would consider saying grace as a reason to "hate" the guy he wants to "throttle" even more. I would say the problem there lies within Dan, and no, that is not "tolerance". That's where I completely disagree with Dan. He seems to think that tolerance merely implies allowing someone to exist and function without actual legal, violent, or direct inteference. To me, that's not enough. Maybe I don't believe in passing laws against gay marriage or that discriminate against gays in other ways. But if I saw a gay couple holding hands, and said that it made me "hate them even more", would that be "tolerance"? I think Hindus should practice their religion freely, and I won't even shout rude things at them while they do it. But when I observe it, if that makes me "hate" the people involved? Something is wrong with me, and it's not tolerance.

@94: Tolerate: to allow the existence, presence, practice, or act of without prohibition or hindrance; permit. Which is precisely what Dan did. That is all, in a free society, one could reasonably expect. No one is saying that you have to like, or approve of what Dan felt, (which indeed you or I might not) but in practice what he did was tolerate Goatee Dude's behavior.

@89 I think you're misinterpreting what I said. "Good" in this case means a tangible product as opposed to a moral or value judgement. (think "Goods and Services Tax" rather than "beer is good"). Music (church bells, etc) is addressed to, and consumed by (listened to by), the public, in order to facilitate the prayer of the faithful; prayer itself is addressed to the deity for the benefit of the individual. And your First Nations coworker is being a dick - respecting his right to pray is resulting in him not respecting your right to a non-burning work environment. Your right to swing your arm ends when it strikes a match on the couch, or something like that.

That said, I believe that smudge sticks are used to cleanse a place of evil and negative spirits. And some places need that more regularly than others. Do you work for Philip Morris, Halliburton, Blackwater, or perhaps a Republican congressional office? :)

38/Confluence: "The East Coast needs to seriously kick this place in the ass and put some hair on its tiny bird chest."

I loved "put some hair on its tiny bird chest"!

49/Suzy: "I get being annoyed at someone who holds up the line and inconveniences others. I don't get being annoyed simply because someone is praying in public. That does indeed strike me as intolerant, because tolerance would be to simply ignore it as meaningless to you."

Someone saying grace in public doesn't annoy me either but tolerance doesn't mean that one simply ignores something as meaningless. It means that one allows something, that one doesn't try to prohibit it. Free speech is all about tolerance. We don't have to like the speech of others or just ignore it -- we can outright despise it -- but we have to tolerate it.

"It's intolerable being tolerated..." - Sondheim: "Eine Kleine Crumbcake"