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800 Maynard Ave S, Suite 200, Seattle, WA 98134
800 Maynard Ave S, Suite 200, Seattle, WA 98134
The reason for this is mostly because they fear they will have to pay for poor blacks. They would rather see them die.
I'm a 31-yr-old Canadian. Knowing I have health care if and when I need it has given me so much FREEDOM! I was free to leave my job at age 27 and go back to school. I know that if I get pregnant unexpectedly, I'll be OK.
Sometimes, I don't get the standard of care I would like. Once, I had a back problem and had a bone scan, but I really wondered (in my girl-with-a-biology-degree-and-health-research-but-not-a-doctor way) if an MRI would have been better. I now know that an MRI was not needed in my case, and the system served me well, and everyone else too, by not slotting me in.
Yes, there are problems in the Cdn system, but for you guys, with all your talk about freedom from taxes, regulations, all that... I am so incredibly fortunate to have been able to follow my dream, due in part to the education and health care systems we have here.
I'm a 27 year old Canadian living in Toronto. I can have an appointment with my LGBT focused family doctor within the week for typical stuff or could get an emergency appointment within a day or 2. I get excellent care and could go to an emergency room as a last resort (emergency rooms are where the wait times are quite long) if needed.
When I was diganosed with cancer in 2005 it was a weeks wait until my first surgery. They wanted to do it the following day after my diagnosis. Wait times? I didn't experience any. That surgery was curative. My second surgery (to confirm that the first was curative) was less than a month later.
I would be in hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of medical debt and would be burdened with that the rest of my life if it wasn't for our health system. I would have never thought I'd get cancer at 20!?!?!?
Medicare (our name for it) has its problems but nobody dies from tooth infections. I never have to worry about bills that will come from calling my doctor or showing up at an emergency room!
I'll take socialism anyday of the week over what's being served up down south!
Our eldest had her wisdom teeth out this summer, even with insurance it cost us $2000.00. I don't get the resistance to universal health care, especially amongst self-professing Christians (its the whole love your neighbor and I don't remember Jesus asking for an insurance card in the Gospels). Members of my own family are staunchly against it and the weird thing is that they love going to Denmark to spend the holidays with family, they will talk endlessly about how wonderful the doctors are there (one broke their leg; another had conjunctivitis; another an ear infection) and how they didn't have to pay anything because the Danish government took care of them. They seemingly ignore the fact that someone did pay for their care, the Danish people. It appears that it is okay to for the Danish people to pay through their taxes for their visiting relatives care. But it isn't right for them to be taxed so that people can have health care too in the US. It sounds an awful lot like a case of "I have mine and tough for you if you don't". *depressed face palm*
I did two full shifts at work walking around on a ruptured appendix. At a job that used all the loopholes possible to make sure I couldn't get insurance until next year.
Fuck the GOP. I suppose if I just kept working until the sepsis killed me, that would've opened up a job. Look! They're job creators!
Waiting forever for an appointment? I can usually get one within a day or two of calling for one, or I could go to one of many free walk-in clinics and see someone the same day, often following a rather long, boring time in the waiting room. It is true that there's a shortage of family physicians, but for most people who aren't mentally ill or homeless that's not a barrier to receiving primary care, it just makes things a bit harder.
Quality of care? I'm not sure what measure people who claim the quality of care in Canada is lower than in the US are employing, but I know several people who've had serious illnesses or accidents and who have no complaints about the treatment they received. If 2 dental operations and 6 weeks of hospitalization cost $250,000 in the US and still couldn't save a kid's life, and when none of that would have been necessary if he'd been able to have an $80 outpatient procedure, I don't know how a reasonable claim can be made for superior quality of care. I know someone in Canada who required major orthopaedic and facial surgery, weeks of hospitalization, and months of specialized physiotherapy following an accident. He paid $0 and survives to this day.
As for surgical wait times, that is a legitimate complaint. But if it came down to a choice between death, permanent disability, or permanent financial ruin on the one hand and waiting a few months for surgery on the other, I know what I would pick.
we are such a messed up country and aside from it’s sketchy environmental legislation Canada is so much more evolved than us
I've witnessed it firsthand myself - I worked for a Lehman Brothers in a support capacity. We all knew something was wrong with the company, but not what was wrong. I was the only one who left my department 18 months before the company failed to go freelance and then join a startup. I was single and childless, with no mortgage to worry about. I had that freedom, and my good health meant that even if I couldn't afford COBRA, I would be reasonably safe. My coworkers did not have that option, in their eyes, and many of them have struggled terribly. But the point is, the fear of being left without affordable healthcare was a huge deterrent to them, and it meant that some very intelligent people were not putting their abilities to the best use (they could have gone out on their own and started businesses or joined a start-up as I did) and were instead helping a failing and corrupt company to limp along and inflict further damage to the economy.
I also have a relative who, when unable to find affordable childcare, almost refrained from starting what is now a thriving electrical business in favor of becoming a stay-at-home dad because his wife had health insurance through her job that they could not afford to give up. Fortunately, they found the needed childcare at a reasonable rate, but it was strictly concerns over healthcare (and pre-existing conditions) that caused him to hesitate.
Our standard of living has changed, because we are a developed nation. We must acknowledge that and realize that innovation can now only thrive when people don't feel they're putting themselves or their loved ones at risk.
It does suck for routine specialties however. General gynecological exams take months, since pregnant women have priority, though women under 21 can go to public youth clinics (think government run Planned Parenthood). It also REALLY sucks ass to have a chronic condition, especially a "we-aren't-quite-sure-what-the-fuck-is-up" condition, because months can pass between specialists with no treatment. Acute treatment, for cancer, for trauma etc. is excellent. Prescription medicine is subsidized, with a 40% discount for most, though seniors get it for free. There's a private system as well, but it has to compete with a universal system that everyone, including their clients, knows they can fall back on.
There's a lot that could improve in the system, but not even the conservatives here would advocate an American system. The American system is widely viewed as the one thing you want to avoid at all costs.
That all being said, Dan is 100% correct IMO that we cannot have a system where people do not have access to necessary health care. I would wholeheartedly support reforms aimed at ensuring coverage for all.
Also, what @17 said is very true. Employer based coverage is hurting the American economy by preventing free mobility of labor.
Dentistry in the US is a mercedes benz or the highway proposition, which is why people travel to mexico to get it done.
The people in question knew they were looking down the barrel of a $5k worth of work for a root canal, crown and prep and decided to wait themselves to death. Its sad, but stop floating around extractions like they are a real option.
Evidence from Britain suggests our country could slash aggregate spending on medical care by two thirds and cover everyone at the same time if we had a fully-developed NHS-type system here.
The downside, of course, is a death sentence to the for-profit hospital industry and the health insurance industry, major donors to political campaigns, which is why it won't happen. You want to talk waste, fraud and corruption? There it is, right there, people.
Medicaid step in to cover all but $1,200 of the bill after the fact, because my cousin really is poor, which I assume comes from us taxpayers away. This Country can be so backwards it's both infuriating and deeply depressing.
It's also worth pointing out (ad nauseum) that denying that kid his tooth medicine didn't SAVE taxpayers $80; it COST taxpayers $249,920. We spent close to a quarter million in order to kill a kid, all in the name of feeling "special" and accomplished for having insurance ourselves.
Our private health care system, even though it does a great job making the insured feel important and successful, does nothing for us. Not only is it more expensive, but as the above blog entry points out, there are many times that "having insurance" means nothing. Insurance is something where you just pay a bunch of money per month to some company, and then you just... fuck off. It's a donation.
As long as I'm paying money into a big pool, I'd like to know that this pool will be used to provide health care to me and others, rather than used to provide Learjets to 3 or 4 executives.
The quality of news stories like the one about Mr. Kyle Willis dying because of a tooth infection disappoint me because I come away with more questions than answers. I also come away feeling there's an agenda behind the story as told. From reading this news report, (and others I've seen), I get the sense that Mr. Willis was a complete victim of his unemployment circumstances and his uninsured status. None of the burden of his health and wellness was his responsibility. Only universal health care would have prevented Mr. Willis from dying!
Didn't Mr. Willis know the dangers of a septic tooth infection spreading to his brain? Did the medical staff not explain this to him? Mr. Willis doesn't know the difference between a pain killer and an antibiotic? If he didn't know the difference, was the medical staff that prescribed them negligent in not explaining the difference? C'mon! Where are the REAL journalists who would ASK these questions and then get them answered?
Was Mr. Willis a deaf mute? Was he incapable of asking questions about his own health care? Upon being discharged from the hospital Mr. Willis should have said "You know, doc, I'm unemployed and can't afford both these prescriptions. Can I get away with only one of them?" The doctor would likely have told him that the antibiotic was the more necessary of the two drugs. (The doctor would have also likely given him a few free painkillers that were just left behind by the BigPharma rep that had just been visiting the hospital.) There are also medical social workers at every hospital that I know of that could have assessed Mr. Willis's eligibility for subsidized prescriptions.
I do feel terrible for Mr. WIllis and his family. No one should die of a tooth infection. However, that's not necessarily the fault of our medical care system. I'm also fairly certain that had Mr. Willis opened his mouth and asked a few questions, or asked for help, this tragedy could have been averted.
wow your relatives sound like total shits....
if you flossed once in a while you wouldn't need gum surgery at your young age, you lazy fuck
damn. life is cruel sometimes.
why didn't the cheap bastards just give him the $25 antibiotics while he was there?
That was cruel and uncalled for, Troll.
Venon caught a nasty resistant flesh eating virus from his skank girlfriend that ate hunks of his gums away.
The warning should have been when he compared kissing his skank girlfriend to rimming a crack whore in the alley.
"One of the reasons we pay more for healthcare and get worse results is that old people get pretty much as unlimited medical treatment. In Canada or the UK they are more inclined to say "Sorry Granny, no more dialysis for you. Time to die." Obama's healthcare plan included some steps to curb Medicare costs. That was the basis of the whole "Death Panels" controversy. Let’s not kid ourselves into thinking the current system doesn’t benefit some people. "
I have never once heard of that happening. Elderly people in the Canadian system receive wonderful care, and very much respect is given to end-of-life, and late-in-life complications. There are no "death panels" and it's irresponsible for someone to suggest that.
Single payer = more jobs!
Which is why so many elderly are concerned with government take-over of health care.
And, great, now you have a healthcare system that weeds out the "stupids". Seriously, that
And, great, now you have a healthcare system that weeds out the "stupids". Seriously, that's your argument, that he just should've known about the dangers of a septic tooth infection? Next you'll be saying he should've just diagnosed himself at home using the Internet. Hell, he could've probably extracted the tooth himself. See, of course, a smarter person might have chosen the antibiotic and survived in his situation. The problem is, the healthcare system in a normal country should benefit everyone, even those with zero medical knowledge.
Generic antibiotics are pretty cheap here, probably not much more than $30, even without insurance. What probably broke the bank was the painkillers. The guy chose expensive painkillers over cheap antibiotics. It's unacceptable that he had to make that choice, but there it is.
@36,
I don't know about the Canadian system specifically, but most universal systems ration care, particularly following an equation of __ amount of money divided by __ number of months of increased lifespan equal we will pay for that procedure or medication. Private insurance in the United States follows a similar formula. If a treatment is really expensive and doesn't extend life for more than a few months, it won't be covered by private insurance. It will, however, be covered by Medicare. I've heard of many cases where no private insurance will cover a treatment because it's too expensive and too ineffective, and Medicare still covers it. That's the problem with extending a government program exclusively to a politically powerful demographic.
@21,
I don't know what you're talking about. Many dentists will perform extractions (especially in this economy).
They may not be particularly good dentists, but then extracting a tooth isn't exactly brain surgery.
I can now add dentistry to the long list of things that Alleged has proven himself ignorant about. Now THERE's a hole with no bottom!
#39: I was under the impression that a major cost of US health care was paperwork associated with insurance companies.
wow.
if your orthodontist moved your teeth off the ridge you got screwed over. (he was lying when he said the Bugs Bunny look was coming back into style....)
gum grafts are just the beginning....
too bad your parents were too damn cheap to send you to a decent American dentist. (Haitian dental schools are not known as among the best in the hemisphere.....)
don't be so cheap when you hire a lawyer to sue the fuckup orthodontist.
Let's parse the situation. Instead of using the word "stupid", I'll use the word "ignorant" or "unknowing" because there are fewer negative connotations.
Let's assume Mr. Willis was "ignorant". He was ignorant of the fact that a septic tooth infection could kill him. Did the medical staff then inform him of this fact when he went to the ER? Impress upon him the seriousness of his medical condition? (I personally believe it's the medical staff's responsibility to relay this type of information and ensure that the patient comprehends it). The news article doesn't address whether this occurred.
Let's assume Mr. Willis was "ignorant". He was ignorant as to the difference between the two medications that were prescribed for him as he left the ER - one, taken for the prescribed course of time, would cure the infection - the other merely treated the pain symptom of the underlying infection. Did the medical staff inform him which medication was which? Did they tell him the costs of each and the relative importance of each, knowing that he could only afford one? The news article doesn't address this. The news article says that Mr. Willis chose to take the pain medication and not the antibiotic. The news article implies he chose the pain medication over the antibiotic because of the costs, but nothing the the news article says what the costs were of each.
Let's assume Mr. Willis was "ignorant". He was ignorant to the fact the there may have been free or lower-cost medications available to him as an unemployed and uninsured patient. Did he seek out this assistance? Did the hospital staff assist him in this regard? Did Mr. Willis seek out assistance from the hospital staff, financial or otherwise? Did Mr. Willis seek out the assistance of his family, financial or otherwise? None of these questions were answered in the news report.
Break your knee playing hockey in the US - you will have a choice of several MRI clinics within the hour and access to several orthopedic surgeons who specialize in knee care. The same isn't true in Canada (or at least wasn't my experience). But a Canadian will eventually have his knee competently surgically addressed without regard to personal financial strain.
Look, I am not saying the system here is perfect - I agree with Dan that no one in a civilized country should be denied access to necessary medical care. But there are trade-offs to a going single-payer government run system and benefits to the status quo.
Look, if you want to insult me, just say it straight out like a big boy. Don't make an even bigger fool out of yourself by trying and failing to be witty.
So in that respect the Spanish system is identical to the American system.
Know what's holding back many small entrepreneurs? Having to pay for health insurance as part of startup costs.
In a single payer system your business will still have to pay into the system. But if your business goes bust and you're unemployed, you'll still be able to get healthcare while you're figuring out what to do next.
A few years ago, my father celebrated his 80th birthday in London. The next morning, as we were in the hotel lobby waiting for the car to take us to the airport so we could come home, he fell over. He had just had a stroke.
It was serious, but an ambulance was on site in less than ten minutes and brought him to a nearby hospital within ten more. Even though he was a US citizen and had not paid into the British system, he was given immediate care. Over the course of the next three days he recieved constant physician care, multiple diagnostic tests, plus physical, occupational and speech therapy. When he was released after three days and we were literally starting to walk out of the door, somebody said, "Before you go, would you be good enough to show us your insurance information"
My father--at 80--was on Medicare, and we knew that wouldn't cover overseas travel, but he had a Blue Cross supplement, so we showed them that card. They copied it and allowed us to leave.
Eventually we got a bill, which my father had to submit first to Medicare (so they could deny the claim) and then to Blue Cross (which only covered costs that Medicare wouldn't). The bill for three days of physician visits, diagnostic tests, plus physical, occupational and speech therapy? Three thousand five hundred dollars! In the US the bill for the ambulance alone would probably have been more than that.
I WISH we had socialized medicine!
I'm all for personal responsibility, but those who argue against universal health care using that argument take it to an illogical extreme. It's magical thinking. "Because I make good choices, I don't get sick, I don't get injured. And if you made good decisions, you wouldn't either. If you get cancer, it's not my problem. If you get land in the hospital because, I don't know, say a drunk driver t-bones your car, it's not my problem."
Of course, any of those things could happen to you, me, or anyone, so if they happen to you, me, or anyone, you'd better believe it's your problem.
Living in the kind of society where the well pitch in to help the sick.
Poor Canadian, here. Well, 'not rich' is more accurate. We live close to the line, but my family's medical premiums are paid by my employer, not by social assistance. I've never had a press conference, but I'm strongly in favour of the Canadian system.
In my 20s at university I unexpectedly needed surgery to correct a problem in my arm that made it difficult to write and impossible to type or play my instrument (I was taking a music degree.) A broke student, I had to spend three days in the hospital and undergo general anesthetic and treatment by an orthopedic surgeon. What did it cost me? 3 days of my Christmas break.
When my husband was looking into school in a very specialized program, we automatically ignored any schools in the US. See, we knew we wanted kids, and we knew we couldn't afford to pay for a pay-per-use *pregnancy*, much less a hospital delivery. Books for expectant parents out of the US have chapters on financing, and suggest planning to pay 16 to 30k for delivery alone! In Canada I went to an OB every month, and every week towards the end. I was registered at an excellent hospital, and admitted on the day to a private room. I had a nurse largely devoted to me, and an OB and pediatrician present at the birth. I stayed overnight in the hospital and left the next day because I *wanted* to, not because I needed to. What did it cost me? Roughly $200 for prenatal classes and vitamins. A far cry from 16k.
Incidentally, my employer pays roughly $250/year for me to get this excellent service and I pay taxes of about 25% of my gross income. I'll keep my 'socialist' system, thanks.
Canadians overwhelmingly prefer their system to our system.
I can't speak for elsewhere, but one of the things universal care does in BC is set the fee for a given procedure. So the government works out the reasonable cost of a procedure and that's what they pay out whenever the procedure is performed. So that's how it BOTH makes sure that every cancer patient has access to care and makes sure that said care is fairly priced for the insurer (itself).
Of course the downside to this is that medical professionals who feel underpaid move south where they can make better money.
The American system is broken and needs to be fixed. I don't know what is wrong with your politicians, or the fact that you seem to willingly accept this fallacy that 'if you have insurance, you're safe'.
Canadian doctor shortages are only in a certain profession really- family med. There are specialist shortages, but that's mainily a construct of funding within the individual hospitals. The one specialty that is severely lacking is rural med. I can tell you as a med school applicant in Canada, that the admissions process to medical schools is very much to blame for the situation.FYI- I live in Whitehorse, which is pretty remote, and I will have great trouble being accepted to a Canadian school, partially because of the lack of opportunities I have to build my get-into-med-school game playing here.
Oh, and BTW- I will a
My partner fell and hit his head in the middle of the night a few years ago. I awoke to the sound of him hitting the floor, just in time to see him have a grand mal seizure. Not knowing what the fuck was happening, I called an ambulance and he was taken to the hospital. After three days of tests he was released. It turned out the seizure was caused by him falling and hitting his head, and there were no further complications. His hospital bill for the ambulance, three days in the hospital and several diagnostic tests was $25,000. Luckily, he had insurance. But his insurance company settled the bill with the hospital for $4500. Of course, if my partner had not had insurance, the hospital would have demanded 25 grand.
Someone who is old and sick could theoretically use as much money as he wanted on health care trying different types of treatments and therapies. Rich people do that. But because there are scarce resources that need to be distributed, insurance and governments put a limit on which treatments are covered. No health care financing plan covers any treatment that anyone asks for.
So, yes, end-of-life care is rationed, any time a person isn't paying out-of-pocket.
The ironic thing is that the Republicans were very upset about this idea, because it means only rich people would be able to get unlimited care. Not like our current system or anything...
But what happened to President Obama and the Democrats after they passed healthcare reform? In the 2010 elections, Teabaggers were voted in -- effectively crippling the federal government. From that vote, it seems that the majority of Americans do not want healthcare for all US citizens. Single payer will never be passed here.
I'm not even sure if President Obama's modest healthcare reform will survive with all the legal and political challenges.
The Democratic base didn't show up for that election because the health insurance reform was so weak it made us physically ill. The Democrats did something very close to nothing with their majority, so the kind of independents who go with a winner (they're idiots, but they swing elections) went with the people shouting the loudest.
It's not what the majority of Americans wanted. It's what the majority of people who bothered to vote in certain geographical areas wanted.
You say something batshit insane. Someone calls you on it. You claim that you never said it in the first place, and everyone is just reading into your comment too much.
Whatta newfag.
Maybe when you hear hoof beats you should look for a pony before assuming a herd of zebras
Obviously, the man did not deserve to die for this, but he made a very bad decision that I discussion with his doctor (or even his pharmacist) would have avoided. "I can't afford both, the pain is really bothering me. What should I do?"
Obviously, the man did not deserve to die for this, but he made a very bad decision that I discussion with his doctor (or even his pharmacist) would have avoided. "I can't afford both, the pain is really bothering me. What should I do?"
You want me to prove that doctors are not stealing? Okay, I'll play your game.
But first you need to prove to me that you're not a witch. I mean, a kitten that knows how to write computer programs? Sounds like a witch's familiar to me! And until you can prove otherwise, we'll have to assume that is was you who used forbidden magics to sic my own chair on me. Prove me wrong, anyone, prove that KittenKoder is not a witch. No one has, and I doubt anyone will.
I see no one is brave enough to go into a doctor with only cash, no insurance, and those who have didn't have a choice, but at least they know. Instead of asking for a handout, ask for a hand up, sad that a conservative slogan is actually accurate in this matter, but that's the problem, you want to see it as Us Versus Them instead of even listening to reason. The politicians play for money, using people as pawns, they con you into picking one team or the other, so you blindly follow that. Wake up little zombies, anyone who won't at least look it up is a fool, anyone who won't think about it is brain dead. My favorite liberal phrase (use to use it a lot back in the day) was "follow the money", ironically didn't originate with liberals but we used it. There is a lot of truth to that, because it's where the money ends that needs to change, not where it starts. It starts with us, insurance companies are the middle, we should not need middle men, so why do we need middle men? The only logical and sane conclusion is that doctors are charging too much and not doing enough, period, any other conclusion is not based on logic but is instead based on blind hatred or blind following.
It's because of things like this that we have an "innocent until proven guilty" policy in this country. To wit, YOU must prove that doctors ARE thieves and frauds if you want anything done. The burden of proof is ALWAYS on the accuser.
Do you really think it's worth paying the Devil your immortal soul in exchange for some piddling arcane abilities?
Look, pretty pictures to help: http://www.aetnabetterhealth.com/Pennsyl…
Such a nice little comparison app here: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story…
Average annual per-person spending:
US: $6,402
Great Britain: $2,723
Nice huh, we're paying almost triple, and these are converted to US dollars. Check the link for more examples, it's quite interesting when you learn something instead of recite campaign slogans made by the people who run giant corporations, like Obama's or Bush's.
I have been without health insurance and paid out-of-pocket (but with a credit card, not cash). Usually they'll help you reduce the cost by eliminating all but the most important items, and sometimes they'll even give you a discount if you're uninsured.
Seems like a no-brainer to me. Seems like the human thing to do. Seems like the Christian thing to do (if you consider yourself a Christian). Seems like the "right" thing to do. Can't understand why not for certain others.
You can spin it, color it, re-package it anyway you like, but in reality it simply is-what-it-is; the right thing to do.
Have you ever been to these countries, or seen such a thing? One of my relatives, still living in the UK is in his 80s and still receives prompt and aggressive treatment for cancer. No one has suggested that he try the "death option". This is the sort of scare-mongering that is always trotted out about "Obamacare". It is clearly nonsense.
But I have a Cadillac health plan myself, so screw everyone who doesn't, or is too stupid to ask the right questions about which medicine to choose, or how to get it on Medicaid. It's just Darwinism in action, getting rid of poor and stupid people. OK, so apart from the Cadilac health plan bit, the remainder of this paragraph was sarcasm, which is perhaps the lowest form of humor, but does seem to typify some of the posters' attitudes
Nevertheless, in our society some (e.g. myself) complain that we have to support the dental care of those who are unemployed. Some get thousands upon thousands of dental care done at no charge, while I work at just above minimum wage and have to pay large sums ($150 min, more likely $300) to get anything done (e.g. tooth extraction).
So I think thats unfair, but apparently I'm now some sort of advocate for allowing people to die? I'm at fault but we cant consider a another persons failings? Surely theres a middle ground, that rational people can argue about, where bad things still happen to people who are essentially good and didn't deserve what came there way? My point being that even your solutions to the above story will involve injustices.
This notion that politics be reduced to whether you care or not is crazy. I feel empathy but that doesn't translate to particular government policies. Policies involve trade-offs, which may or may not impact upon essential notions of responsibility, duties, and yes, justice. Many of the commentators seem to ignore this and pictures all opponents being cruel, mean, and harsh people. The story above only reinforces this. And the story that tells you all your political opponents are heartless is wrong.