Comments

1
Do these rules apply to the use of "n*gger" as well? I'm really confused about being PC anymore.
2
Seems to me the movement for equality in America is getting bogged down more and more by controlling the way people speak. Surely efforts are better focussed towards actual threats, rather than becoming thought police for a new millennium.

3
That does it. Nobody's allowed to use any words any more. We all have to go back to grunting.
4
@3 Nope. That might offend neanderthals.
5
These folks are getting as annoying as grammar nazis.
6
@4 I think the PC term now is "Neandertal". Not sure why they lost the "h".
7
What I don't understand is where folks who self describe as trannies fit in...
8
Honestly though, who really pays much attention to the people who are that over-the-top hysterical? They're great fun for mockery, but really they are little more than side-shows.

I think you can take a cue from the N*ggerhead fiasco. I saw several frightened liberal reporters ask several patient black reporters/professors/pundits how you go about reporting such a story when the word was central to the story. There seemed to be a consensus that saying the word "nigger" when you are reporting on a story about racism that lacks any coherence without the word is perfectly admisable. Most African Americans, and most transgendered folks (and most transgendered African Americans) are not fucking idiots and can differentiate between a word being used to hurt or as a tasteless joke and a word being used to address the very issues brought up by the word itself.
9
@6 No, it's still Neaderthal. Named for the Neander valley where the first identified remains were discovered. Valley = thal, pronounced "tal" in German.
10
Fron a realistic & practical standpoint I really think the only logical way to move forward is to de-stigmatize these words (all of them - c*nt, n*gger, etc.) Until we do so it's just going to give straight, white males this completely ridiculous "power" (for lack of a better word) that we've done absolutely nothing to deserve.
11
I was busy wondering when transvestites became such a political force?! different meaning this side of the pond..
12
I'm not sure which spelling is politically correct lately; I've been seeing an awful lot of "Neandertal" in scientific publications lately.

Either way, you can't use that word no matter how you spell it. Just call them "Republicans."
13
Too soon @4. Neanderthals have only been extinct for arguably 30, 000 years. Bad form.
14
I stand corrected by Fifty-Two-Eighty.
15
@8 - "Honestly though, who really pays much attention to the people who are that over-the-top hysterical? "

People who watch Fox "News"?
16
Both Neanderthal and Neandertal are correct. It got changed somewhere along the way to better reflect the original German pronunciation (pronounced "tal" and not "thal") but the old way is still correct.
Sorry everyone, I'm an insufferable palaeolithic archaeologist...had to get involved.
17
I'm not going to slam on people who are offended by this word because talking about the PC police is an idiotic fallacy whether it be done by Tea Partiers or supporters of gay Doogies.

But this particular word has come up so many times lately that I'm sure someone must have made this point, but I don't think it can be made enough to people in responding to trans issues and 'tranny' in general.

Dear Folks:

You know how sometimes people give old people a slight pass when they say something ignorantly racist or homophobic because they were from a different time. You might (and shouldn't) let it totally slide but use it as as teaching moment to say 'that's not acceptable (anymore) and here's why'

People really, really, really, really need to do this was 'tranny.' When I was growing up and coming out/into the gay community, 'tranny' was used by everyone -- gay people, gay publications, and many non-self-hating, fabulous trans people themselves. It may have always been offensive to some, but it wasn't to all, and this wasn't that many years ago. Though people should maybe be more educated, it's not the type of thing that often comes up for a lot of people, even your fellow GLBs. Not everybody is as engaged with this issue as those who know. So when it does come up, instead of treating people who are would obviously be on your sides as equal to the bigots who would gladly strip you of even the limited rights you currently have, you need to engage them. Unless you want to just be another asshole who can claim moral superiority rather than just winning an argument. But then, again, your difference in terms of attempting to make political and social change between you and the Tea Party becomes harder and harder to grasp. Nobody's asking you to back down -- just to realize with quick (though not quick enough) social change comes a responsibility to guide everybody else along.
18
(Trigger warning for patriarchy, rape culture, transphobia) Coming from my own personal narrative, which I recognize has inherent in it a certain amount of cis privilege that, to me, is articulated through what society views me and being able to work comfortably within my gendered role without facing acute oppression or internalized trauma regarding my physical and more nebulous, spiritual identity, and taking in to account the invisible narratives that have been destroyed by a binary that pervades all of human history, erasing queer, femme, butch, gay, bi, BDSM, kink, bent, genderqueer, genderfuck, and otherkin peoples within a colonial and paternalist system in which power is directly related to one's role in a society and from which each person should be free to liberate, I would posit that this argument is complete bullshit and I fucking hate these circle-jerk blogs.
19
What a weirdly defensive post.
20
@7 is spot on. I will continue to call my tranny friends trannies, because that's their preferred term. Well, that or "Dan," "Sylvia," etc.
21
@12, I'm not sure it's a PC argument so much as it's a linguistic argument. When Neaderthals were discovered the Germans were using "thal" for valley. Since 1901 they've been using "tal". So, technically, both spellings are correct. The scientific spelling is maintained as Neaderthal, even in Germany.

I take issue with your degradation of Neaderthals. We are unsure of their median level of intelligence. Also, Neaderthals interbreed with homo sapians so a lot us - dems and repubs - are Neaderthals. I like to believe that full Neaderthals would be unhappy to be lumped in with the the fear-mongering, morally bankrupt, hypocritical, power-hungry homo sapians sapians who represent the Republican Party these days.
22
Political correctness may have started as a means of protecting minorities from offensive speech, but it is increasingly used as a weapon to smear people you don't like.

Why some trannies don't like Dan is anyone's guess.
23
@17: Great response.

My personal favorite line: "Our lives are not a joke."

Yes, yes they are. All lives are a joke. It's not my fault you haven't seen the punchline yet. You're just pissy NPH is funnier in his worst moment than you are at your best.
24
@16, I gotta say I love that half this thread is now devoted to a discussion of Neaderthal vs. Neadertal. My inner nerd (and my outer nerd, okay just my whole self) is totally geeking out.
25
@21: Neaderthals interbreed with homo sapians

We don't know if that's true or not, it's an open question.
26
don't all of you morons have something better to do than argue if dan savage - world acclaimed promoter of poop jokes and writer for MTV - is sexually phobic in any way?

i don't even read his shitty posts and i know that is an extremely stupid accusation.
27
@25: There's been recent genetic evidence out of Leipzig that strongly suggests that we did, in fact, interbreed at one point with Neanderthals.
They found that all non-African populations share 1-4% of their genes with Neanderthals. The researchers are hypothesizing that it only really happened during one period of time, most likely in the Middle East east, and then never happened again.
28
@26: Hehehe, I'm pretty excited about it too...I was about to start talking about the FoxP2 gene and how it relates to Neanderthal speech and then decided that probably nobody cares and restrained myself.
29
@25 DNA analysis is pretty conclusive.
31
@28, I can't speak for anyone else but I totally care.
32
Dan. Stop.

Someday I will go through all of your columns and list all the parts where you have said things that could have been read as a little transphobic, a little misogynist, a little biphobic. I am not going to do that now, because it's 2AM where I am and I'm tired and have homework to do in the morning. But someday.

I - and probably a lot of other people - would be willing to wipe that slate clean if you were willing to admit that you've said some things you maybe shouldn't've. That's okay. That's allowed. We all do it.

But this hysterical over-the-top defensiveness is making you look as bad as the people you're trying to ridicule. Either accept the criticism or let. It. Go.
33
@18 FTW This cisgendered binary male loves you, but in a non-oppressive patriarcy kind of way.
34
@30, one of the main authors of that study came to my halloween party. He is a dancing fiend.
35
Dan is really, really good at flushing out immaturity, irrational and egomaniacal self-righteousness and mild mental illness. He takes it beyond troll-baiting and into the realm of comic bookesque superpower. I bet he feels really blessed to have such influence.

I like the 5280/Renton Mike comedy team up there.

Back to your cavemen!
36
@27 ".. it only really happened during one period of time, most likely in the Middle East, and then never happened again".

That's Mrs Homosapien's story and she's sticking to it.
37
@29, @30: Not even the scientists who did the DNA analyses you are referring to would describe the results as "conclusive" on this issue. "Suggestive", maybe, but by no means "conclusive".

@34: And his costume was?
38
Danny we are worried about you.

When you get the ButtSore it seems to heal very slowly.

Perhaps you need to take a multivitamin.

We realize a very very heavy glass jar almost hit you right in your fucking face, butt damn, your catlike reflexes saved you so surely you can move on now?
39
This idiocy is not even about whether "tranny" is okay. It's about a failure to grasp the simple distinction between "use" and "mention" of a word. You're in good company, Dan. Check this out:
http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=…
40
@37, he dressed up in a fake-blood spattered white jumpsuit, wore plastic face-guard mask, and carried a fake knife. I don't even know what you call masks like that.
I was super impressed, considering he's German and I didn't expect any of the Germans to take the costume thing seriously.
41
wonders how many times Dan is supposed to say he's sorry for using words that get so many panties in a bunch EVERY SINGLE TIME without regard to context.

I figured it was Neandertal because they're tall. Like Ted Danson.
42
I believe "PC" now just means "words or expressions of belief that I (the speaker) don't like." It is quickly obsolete because it has come to mean so many relative words. I use "considerate" now in lieu of PC.

I have to say that people who use "PC" in a derogatory sense are also people with whom I don't find much in common.

I also find language anger to be really over-rated. Let's all speak a langauge we don't know, so we can focus on better behavior instead of better language.
43
@9, yes, but German for 'valley' is Tal, not Thal (the latter was the 19th-centurish spelling, but in one of those early spontaneous spelling reforms Thal became Tal). So "the Valley of the Neander" is today Neandertal. Which would explain the spelling change.
44
TRANNY
45
@27(australokrista), I've been recently to Leipzig (the Max-Planck-Institut, I suppose you mean; or do you mean the university?) and indeed the idea that there was interbreeding between sapiens and neanderthalensis has a lot going for it and many defenders. I saw a few dissenting voices though.

Anyway, since Neandert(h)als are clearly much closer to Cro-Magnons than earlier SF movies would lead us to believe (I wonder if they would look more deviant among us than any specific geographic groups of sapiens, like Papua New Guinea highlanders or Australian aboriginals; probably not), the interbreeding hypothesis is certainly not offensive. If I happen to have Neandert(h)al genes in my genome, I'll be proud of it.
46
@australokrista, I'd be interested in the FoxP2 gene and Neandert(h)al speech. Care to elaborate?
47
http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Savag…
48
On the topic of "tranny", I've discussed my opinion in other comment threads... here's a little summary:

(a) words are not offensive per se, it's their use that makes them offensive

(b) words are not 'guilty' of being offensive; people are guilty of offending others with words; mistaking the word for the real culprit (the bigot) is like believing the whip is more important than the whip master.

These facts notwithstanding, one often finds activists actively fighting against words, regardless of context or intention, commtiting the mistake described in (b). This has several bad consequences:

[i] fighting against words is a waste of time and resources: if the underlying cause of the offensive behavior (bigotry, hatred, social structures and stereotypes, the hearts and minds of the population) isn't changed, any offensive words eliminated by activism will soon be replaced by new offensive words used for the same purpose as the old ones.

[ii] fighting against words rather than contexts and 'what is said', sometimes leads to activists fighting against anyone who uses the word, including those who actually agree with the activsts' cause and support it, thus creating 'friendly fire' that harms rather than helps the cause.

[iii] the general fight-the-word climate creates a grammar-police-state situation with a new hierarchy
in which those 'in the know' try to control the others (the plebs) by denying them legitimate access to labels they identify with ('you're not a true X / Y / Z!'), in sad imitation of the very oppressive principle they wished to combat ('patriarchy', racism, cultural conformity/stereotypes, etc.).
49
@32 FTW
50
I don't read Dan either. Or any of the comments. Hell, I don't even read my own stuff.

So there.
52
There's a meme that trans women are predators? This is the first time I've ever heard that suggested, anywhere (including the many narratives in which trans persons have related their experiences with transphobia and discrimination; the Buffalo Bill thing thing is a result of people being idiots, as in both the book and movie Lecter points out that BB isn't actually transsexual, according to the psychological model of transsexualism).

Also, I assert that claiming privilege from any negative depictions of trans people at all is itself transphobic. The problem isn't that trans people are sometimes depicted as bad people, because there are plenty of trans people who are assholes(probably including a murderer or two). The problem is that/if trans people are ONLY depicted as bad people, and/or if hateful bigots latch on to any negative images and claim that they are representative. Are some trans women predators? Yes, of course, just like some trans men are predators, and cis men, and cis women, and intersexed persons, and any other newer or older classification or term as which you (any of you out there in Internet land) prefer to identify/be identified. Claiming privilege from any negative depictions is insisting that trans people be treated differently than everyone else, which is exactly the problem in the first place. Trans people (I'm curious, once "trans" has been used in marginalizing or offensive contexts enough that a critical mass of people find the term itself always offensive, what are we going to do? Go with something like "person-of-trans"?) shouldn't be treated any worse than anyone else, nor should they be treated any better.

As for the bathroom thing, that's not a claim that trans women are predators, that's a claim that straight cis men are predators and are going to use equality guarantees for trans people as a pretext to assault women in bathrooms (don't try to follow the lack of logic in insisting that assault somehow won't still be assault and won't still be illegal if we stop caring about the genitals/hormone levels/genes of people using a particular collection of toilet stalls) which is deployed in order to continue trans oppression. It should be read as deeply insulting to both trans women (as it suggests that they don't really exist or at least that a significant portion of the people identifying as trans women aren't really transgendered and that the fact that some assholes assault people means we should oppress a particular group) AND cis men (as it suggests that allowing them to be near women who are urinating or defecating will somehow motivate them to assault those women).

Was NPH's comment tasteless/in bad form/offensive to many (and legitimately so)? Sure. Because of the context. You (linked blogger) have every right to ask people around you to not call YOU "tranny" nor use "tranny" around you (though that's possibly terribly marginalizing for people who self-identify as "trannies"; people also have the right to ignore you, though that may well be an indication that they're bigoted assholes) and to advocate for the removal of the word from our shared vocabulary (by trying to convince people that it's experienced as hurtful by enough people to merit that removal), but you have no right whatsoever to dictate the universal use and meaning of words, or to proscribe words from general use because you personally find them offensive. Also, cite us specific examples of Dan being transphobic if you're making that claim, not examples of other people making that claim without evidence.

@32: Dan frequently apologizes for stupid things he's said. The thing is that they're NOT willing to wipe the slate clean, and this particular kerfuffle is about something that someone completely made up. Don't deny Dan his anger at being dishonestly attacked and smeared; it's not okay just because the people doing it have also been dishonestly attacked and smeared at various points in their lives.
53
@48... That was much better at saying what I was attempting to say. Thanks.
54
I can't believe Dan is getting all this abuse for "tranny" while the real crime -- "cissy" for "sissy" -- is being completely ignored. Seriously, I'm calling the Spelling Directorate of the UN on this.
55
I couldn't give a flying fig about NPH or his (mis)use of the word tranny, but I would be absolutely fascinated to hear about Neanderthal speech from Australokrista. Pretty, pretty please?
56
..you know.. i don't like hearing the word 'nigger' ..- i heard a white gay man call a bunch of other gay men 'niggers' outside of rebar a couple of weeks ago and it stung. like hell i even felt like crying . then i got in a cab and heard the driver , another white man use it .yeah.. i know..right ?.. i was too hurt to give a 'teachable moment' any air.. because , like, who am i, dr fucking phil ? .and yes i've used it countless times in various ways throughout my life to various effect. so i decided to change my feelings about it
( people forget that they can change their feelings ) because.. well this is all too fucking ridiculous.. ..
... for words...
57
@54 (Fnarf), please go and defend all us cissy boys! We need all the help we can get.

@52 (Mr Horstman), I agree with pretty much everything you've said there, and you've said it very eloquently.

One problem with activisms of all kinds is how easily they start using themselves stereotypes and offensive words (some they create themselves) to attack their enemies. There is of course a motivation for this -- they were themselves attacked and suffered thoughout their lives. It is sad, though, to see it happen, just as it is sad to see another round of war starting in the Balkans because of events that happened there more than five hundred years ago.
58
@26: So either you consider this one to be an unshitty post, or you make a habit of jumping right into the comments without rea...

Sorry, just noticed my bin of Purina Troll Chow is empty.
59
the MTFs i've met have been, with one exception, fabulous people. the FTMs, not so much. too defensive and thin-skinned.
60
So a pregnant cis-gendered Neanderthal, a FTM lawyer, and an Orthodox rabbi from Canada who overuses his free health care walk into Trannyshack.
They watch Suppositori Spelling's performance and clap politely,
61
Thanks for taking Silence of the Lambs seriously--I still laugh through the whole thing and it's subsequent pathetic attempts at coherent follow-ups.
62
I've got a trip planned to the Neandert*al Museum in Dusseldorf for this spring. I should be prepared to comment authoritatively upon my return about all this stuff.
63
@43, yup. I addressed the language shift in my comment @21. Language is ever shifting and I realized I hadn't mentioned the spelling change/shift that happened at the beginning of the 20th Century.

@australokrista I'd also like to reiterate my plea to hear about the FoxP2 gene. I know I could look it up but I'm enjoying the discussion here.

@seandr, are you just terrified to have to admit that your ancestors interbreed with some nonhumans? Does that do in your world view so much that you feel the need to plug your ears and reject the scientific evidence? Lots of things aren't 100% conclusive but we accept them as true because the chance that we got it wrong is so damn small.
64
O dear gawd, this "tranny" nonsense is moronic.

You know how the GOP became a pack of illiterate, Bible-thumping Luddites? Because the far, far, far right Republicans-- the ones who are so off the charts reactionary that they've ventured into fascist territory-- started ejecting sensible conservatives. So much so that the phrase "sensible conservative" has become an oxymoron. Now all that's left of the GOP is the complete imbeciles who somehow simultaneously drink the evangelical and objectivist Kool-aid, thereby believing that praising Jesus and cutting taxes will solve every problem in the world, ever.

The folks trying to paint Dan as "transphobic" are the left's version of the wackos who destroyed the GOP. They want to eject people who agree that transexuals are entitled to full marriage rights, dignity, and equal protection under the law-- views that are sadly NOT yet mainstream, by the way-- but who aren't such sensitive babies that the word "tranny" sends them into convulsive fits.

Shut the fuck up, assholes. Learn who your fucking allies are.
65
@Pablo Picasso
This comment thread will still be unraveling then, what with all the 1% Neanderthal trolls and their poo-flinging.
66
as for Tal vs. Thal - as ankylosaur @43 rightly points out, Tal is the modern German. In many cases, though, the old fashioned spelling remains for locations. And here's where it gets really crazy: The nearby city is called "Neanderthal", whereas the actual place (and the state park) is called "Neandertal". You can see them next to each other on a map here: http://g.co/maps/mscj8
67
@64 Hey, I'm a left crazy and I think those trannies are being fags, so shut the fuck up asshole.
68
I just mainlined all four parts of the UK Channel Four docu, "My Transsexual Summer" in which the seven participants, each in a different stage of transitioning, dubbed themselves "the Magic Tranny Seven". I guess no one told them that was self-hating and wrong?
69
@68 Well, they're victims of cis-paternalism.
70
#68: regional variations in English isn't a particularly strong argument. "Homosexual" has a much less negative connotation in the UK than in the US as well, but that doesn't mean anything either.
71
@27: I've seen summaries of that genetic research too, and yes, it is suggsetive that non-African Homo Sapiens have a few percent Neandertal DNA.

So we're all either one N-word or another.
72
Wow! I had no idea I was going to be so popular! Sorry to keep you guys hanging. Sooooo.
Let me start out first by saying that I am not a geneticist, I am an archaeologist. I can't get into the nitty-gritty, but I can summarize research for you. I am not a professor, just a lowly grad student. With that said...

FOXP2 Gene
This is a gene that has been linked to speech in modern humans. If people are born with a damaged FOXP2 gene, they have horrible speech problems. Turns out though, that Neanderthals also had this gene. While we can't conclusively say that Neanderthals possessed speech as we know it, they at least had some genes that are related to modern day speech capabilities.

Genes also tell us that they had a red hair gene. Probably irrelevant, but still kinda cool.

@45: I was talking about the Max Planck institute. When I talked about the study I am mostly referring to the presentations an acquaintance of mine has presented. He is one of the authors of the study who moved to my university (Tuebingen) to be a junior professor after he helped finish that study.
73
@36: I am going to be laughing all day at that.

Like I said, I am an archaeologist, so if you guys wanna get into Neanderthal vs. Human material culture I can tell you guys waaaay more about that.

74
@72: Just skimming here but... is it possible that breeding with Neanderthals gave the Homo Sapiens in Europe-- who were originally from Africa-- pale skin and light hair? Because that would be hi-lar-ious.
75
Can't we make Tranny like Faggot, where anyone can say it and no one really cares anymore because we know no one is homophobic?
76
Here's a photo of Cro-Magnon Man
77
Neil Patrick Harris' transgression is that he's too adorable to be real. :-)

I'd love to see him as Felix in a remake of The Odd Couple; I think he'd be hilarious.
78
@74: I think Europeans would have evolved it on their own anyway, but yes, I imagine that Homo sapiens were brown skinned at that point and Neanderthals were definitely white. It IS really funny.
79
Why are you people so exercised about transmissions? Fucking weirdos.
80
I'm a cisgendered (not trans) gay person. I'll say this.

The word "tr*nny" is about transgender people, not us. It's a name referring to them. It's a miniscule part of my life, but a big part of theirs. And generally, transgender people don't like the word.

Many people have continued to use "tr*nny" regardless, either maliciously, or at least dismissively of the community's desire to not be called that.

Others say they are using it in a more nuanced and careful way.

So lets use this metaphor: you might let your buddies call you a nickname, which is a little demeaning but meant affectionately. But if for whatever reason you become less sure who's your buddy and who's not, you just might decide you want to be rid of the nickname altogether.

Currently there is a huge lack of trust between many trans people and the rest of the world. There are obvious reasons for that. Some are specific to the use of the word "tr*nny." There are complicated nuances to it's use, but a lot of people who want to use the word also don't want to take the time to really understand those nuances. So, rather than spend a lot of energy trying to elaborate for people who aren't listening, they just want to make it simple: we're done. We consider the word negative from now on.

I consider it a simple show of respect to comply. I don't care whether they're being "reasonable" or not. It's not my job to judge every single person on every single little issue. (However, I do think I hear where they are coming from.)

It is SO EASY to just not use the word anymore. I'm gonna go ahead and comply out of respect.
81
I'm a cisgendered (not trans) gay person. I'll say this.

The word "tr*nny" is about transgender people, not us. It's a name referring to them. It's a miniscule part of my life, but a big part of theirs. And generally, transgender people don't like the word.

Many people have continued to use "tr*nny" regardless, either maliciously, or at least dismissively of the community's desire to not be called that.

Others say they are using it in a more nuanced and careful way.

So lets use this metaphor: you might let your buddies call you a nickname, which is a little demeaning but meant affectionately. But if for whatever reason you become less sure who's your buddy and who's not, you just might decide you want to be rid of the nickname altogether.

Currently there is a huge lack of trust between many trans people and the rest of the world. There are obvious reasons for that. Some are specific to the use of the word "tr*nny." There are complicated nuances to it's use, but a lot of people who want to use the word also don't want to take the time to really understand those nuances. So, rather than spend a lot of energy trying to elaborate for people who aren't listening, they just want to make it simple: we're done. We consider the word negative from now on.

I consider it a simple show of respect to comply. I don't care whether they're being "reasonable" or not. It's not my job to judge every single person on every single little issue. (However, I do think I hear where they are coming from.)

It is SO EASY to just not use the word anymore. I'm gonna go ahead and comply out of respect.
82
THOG MAD!!!!!!!!

You no say neanderthal or neandertal!! Both bad as call Thog "Cave man!!" Call Thog "Human of alternate evolutionary origin" or no call Thog nothing at all. You bad people. Make Thog cry.
83
@81: I'm with you.
84
So what I'm getting from this discussion is that the one thing it is definitely NOT okay to ever say is "neandertranny."

The preferred term is "Netranderthal," right?
85
52 80 and Rainier Valley Michael deserve the blame for all of this.
86
Thank you very much. My pleasure.
87
@84
That would enact Against-The-Marriage-Principles-of-Godwin's Law
88
@84, more modernly Netrantertal
89
@80/81: I agree, with one caveat: the door swings both ways.

If some/most members of the transsexual community have decided they find "tranny" offensive for whatever reason, then its reasonable for people outside that community to stop using that term. Similarly, if some/most members of the non-transsexual community have decided they find "cisgendered" to be fucking ridiculous, then it is reasonable for people outside that community to stop using that term.
90
I had no idea "tranny" was considered offensive now. How very annoying. I guess I should be grateful to have learned of this before inadvertently offending my friends.
91
So, I'm gonna go hang out with my tranny friends tomorrow night at a drag show. It will be transtastic!
92
I'm sure this is offensive to some of our ancestors somewhere, somehow:

http://dresdencodak.com/2009/09/22/cavem…
93
"So we're all either one N-word or another." AHAHAHAHAHahahaha...okay, @71, that really did make me laugh out loud.

@81 - gosh, you explain that so simply and eloquently. If I was a politician, I would hire you to be my head speechwriter immediately :)
94
@89, because the "non-transsexual community" has faced such oppression for their status, that we definitely want to make sure we don't hurt their little feelings by using a word that names, and thus annoys them.

No one who uses "cisgendered" does so out of hatred or disgust, but in search of clarity and a word that doesn't make transgendered people into the marked case. Don't use if it you don't like it, but it doesn't become an insult just because you say it is.
95
"My use of the word "tranny" in a blog post about how I didn't use the word and try not to use the word? Just a sneaky way of using the word! (Example of this strain of logic here: "And yet by trying not to say the word 'tranny' anymore, he says it over and over in that post...") SO! Hate speech! Proof of transphobia!"

Dan, *I* am the one on JMG who said that comment. Try fully quoting me in context next time. When the hell did I ever say you were a full-blown transphobe from hell? I have been a fan of your for years and know full well that you say some things about us that make me cringe. And I am allowed to give my opinion that your response was not very apologetic nor did it sound like you were being sincere. Stop playing the victim. Once again, if you want to prove you aren't a phobe, stop doing things that make people assume you are - like obsessing over my post or your critics or telling us over and over again about just how much you love the transpeople and give them money. I know you aren't a transphobe - I've even written to you before and you were nice - short and snippy - but nice. But it doesn't excuse the various times you've said or done things that I don't think you would say or do in regards to everyone else. And there are people who will use that as arsenal against you even if it's not your intention to be as crude as you some times sound. That's all.
96
It's not only on this issue that people can start disappearing up their own assholes - http://www.pediastaff.com/blog/worth-rep…

I believe that everyone deserves to be treated with respect. I believe that everyone deserves full civil rights. Having someone like me afraid to open my mouth because I'll get something wrong does not, I think, advance the cause of respect and civil rights for all.
97
@95, what you call "obsessing" might seem fixated, but have you ever been stabbed in the back by people you've gone to bat for? It SUCKS. It takes a while for the sting to fade. For somebody like Dan to be called a transphobe probably hurt like a motherfucker, even through the thick skin one has to develop to be a public figure.

I think the whole point of this "Dan is transphobic" debacle is that the only people who can't see that he's 100% on the side of the trans community are the fucking trans community.
98
Only a Ginger can call another Ginger Ginger.
99
@81, Thanks for the input! I have a problem, however, with the argument you try to make; here it is.

Your basic reason for preferring to simply avoid the word "tranny" altogether (or any offensive word for that matter) was that, once you couldn't see who is your friend or who isn't anymore, you can't see who is using it affectionately or who is using it to hurt.

My problem with this is: this is true for any word that can be applied to a person.

I'm Brazilian. I've been called "Brazilian" in a clearly offensive way, or sometimes not offensively but still condescendingly ('you're not one of us', 'you're a Brazilian, you wouldn't know about that'). Would it be better for me if people simply stopped using the word? No. It wouldn't.

I've been called "good" words obviously meant ironically, or even as threats ('Yes, my "friend", come here. We "love" you. We just want to "talk". Heh heh heh...'). Would it be better if these words were eliminated? No. It wouldn't?

Why?

Because it's the people. It's always the people.

The sad truth is that you never can know who your 'real friends' are or aren't, who 'really means it' when they call you anything -- even 'friend' -- affectionately or not. And even when you think you know who you can trust and who you can't -- you may still be wrong, you may still be betrayed. Being hurt by others, especially others you didn't expect to hurt you, has always existed as a human experience, and probably will always exist -- no matter how many words are erased from our vocabulary.

Because the cause of the experience you so eloquently describe is not the words, but the people behind the words, and their intentions. If the word 'tranny' (or 'faggot', or 'nigger', or...) were to entirely disappear, they would still do the same thing with other words.

How long do you think it will take "trans" to also become tainted with offensive meanings? (I see this happening with 'African American' as we speak). Just enough cases of people meaning something offensive when they say "trans", and the work is done.

People who are discriminated, victimized by stereotypes are understandably sensitive to the superficial facts associated with their suffering -- they mistake the whip for whip master, because -- understandably -- whenever they see a whip their memory recalls whip masters and how much they made them suffer with their whips.

But still, the truth is that the whip masters are guilty, not the whips. If you take away their whips, they'll find other instruments of torture to persecute those they don't like -- in the case of words, this is so easy to do it's almost ridiculous. If you allow me to use a popular Brazilian expression, it's like trying to block the sun with a sieve.

So, @81: I understand where you're coming from. Hell, when I'm talking to people who I think may be offended by a word (say 'tranny'), I avoid it myself because I don't want to bring back their bad memories.

But truth is truth. And the truth is, the word is not guilty of abuse; it's the word users who used the word to hurt that are guilty. And that is not going to change in the slightest if the word disappears. Bigots will simply use other words -- other whips -- and nothing at all will change in the life of trans people.

Which is why I say: don't fight the words; fight the bigots. The words can have other uses, and are ultimately immaterial: as long as the bigots continue to express bigotry, they'll always find new words to harass people.
100
@95, I don't think Dan is "playing the victim": he was a victim, in the glitterbombing case, and is reacting like all victims do, by defending himself, and possibly exaggerating the case of his total innocence ('I never did anything to deserve that!'). It's the same syndrome that also makes victims often see the world in black and white (either you're with us, or you're against us!).

You're pointing out that he did make remarks that 'made you crige' (I assume this means false remarks) about trans people. And yes, it would be better if he did mention that, and also mentioned that his thoughts have evolved, and that he now realizes those false statements are, well, false. (Dan claims to have done that. This should be an empirical question, no?)

You are allowed to think Dan's response was not sufficiently apologetic. Hell, you may even be right (depending on what false comments Dan actually made about trans people.) But don't also forget the context: Dan's response came in the aftermath of having been victimized (yes, victimized!) by an attack that, in that moment, he did not deserve. If you are willing to allow victims some leeway because of their status, then I suppose you can say the same about Dan, in this specific case -- without having to give up or compromise your opinions about any false statements about trans people Dan may have made in the past.
101
@89, I was going to say pretty much what EricaP said (@94), but she already did it. So I'll add only one thing.

Any label can be used by someone to offend others. I'm sure there must be someone somewhere (or many someones in many somewheres) using the word "cis" or "cisgendered" in an offensive way.

This doesn't mean that a word to describe the group of people who aren't trans isn't useful or necessary, especially in the context of talking about trans issues.

Don't make the mistake of confusing assholes with words. Assholes want to offend, words are just tools with many uses. 'Cis' is a useful tool in certain contexts. If some people use it to offend, it's their problem, not the problem of the word 'cis', which is in itself simply... useful.

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