oh, man, there's so much in that statement that makes me want to throw up. let me tell you. i've been in exactly the same kind of "faith community" that MH is, and it's not that complicated. they MAKE it complicated because they are so repressed that the only outlet for thinking or talking about sexual things is in the context of "sexual sin." it's titillating. also, they have a totally fucked up sense of authority that comes from a particular type of biblical interpretation. combine the two and somehow a dude and his fiancee making out, maybe with a little boob action, turns into a "complicated sexual sin discipline situation." so fucking glad i got out.

We love people... except for those who don't believe in what we believe, whose behavior we don't approve of, who don't believe that churches should be tax exempt, who believe our church practices psychological blackmail... etc.

It's like when the CIA justifies all their fuckups by telling you how great all the shit they can't tell you about is. You just have to trust them, OK?

And give them all your money.

Oh honey, don't call!

Just run, the cult wants to get it's hooks into you again.

"Often a young woman sexually sinned against" Man, could they have made it sound more titillatingly salacious?
It just reeks of equal parts frat-boy crass and idiot sexism, but guaranteed to enturgify the yokels while sounding humble.

There's a MH church down the street from my house. On Sunday's in particular, it is difficult for me to run throught the gauntlet of parked Mars-Hillian cars and Stepford-esque Church of Melrose Place pedestrians wandering in and out of the church building, whether I'm driving or out for a run with the Big Yellow Dog. Over this intrusion into my personal routine, I feel aggrieved.

Do you think this form is meant for me?

This just confirms my assertion that, at the end of the day, theology is just a fancy word for marketing. When the flock stops buying the product, you change the ads for the product. If the situation is dire, you actually change the product's design.

@7, Mars Hill does not equate to theology anymore than the Catholic Church does. There are actually religions which don't demand that you surrender your brain or body.

Sarah dear, this is where you and I part ways on religion. To me, it's all marketing: butts in pews.

It's a traaaaap!

I do not think the word "reconciliation" means what they think it means.

Oh, yeah. This totally makes them seem less creepy than they did before. Totally.

*shudder*

Really? OK. There are sooooo many ways of responding to that statement, but I'll use the language that they would be most familiar with.

[start bible-thumping rant]

Let me start with the comment that was just a throw-away line: "often a young woman sexually sinned against". You feel that there are people in your church that are "sinned against"? May I suggest familiarizing yourself with the concept of "sin"? There is only ONE who is sinned against, and that is GOD. Not you, not me, not any one else. GOD alone is the one who sinners sin against. If I assault someone sexually, it is a sin against GOD. If I steal something, it is a sin against GOD. A sin is an offense against GOD, not anyone else, and if you are claiming that if someone throws insults at the pastor then it's a sin against the pastor, if you are claiming that if a man touches a woman sexually outside the bonds of marriage it's a sin against her, if you are claiming that people lying about the Mars Hill Church is a sin against its members, then you are all sinning against GOD. You are committing the sin of idol worship. You are seeing yourselves, your church, as equal to the LORD and worshiping yourselves, your church, as false idols. A church may be servants to GOD, but the moment you see the church as GOD, the moment the pastor sees himself as equal to GOD, then a sin has been committed: not a sin against me, not a sin against other people, but a sin against GOD.

[end bible-thumping rant]

I may be an atheist now, but I was forced to go to enough sermons and Sunday schools and read the Bible enough times to know the language, and I'll be damned (heh) if I'll let a church get away with excusing itself with crap theology. Uh, excuse me, this ain't a church: they're a country club cult who has skimmed the Bible looking for jargon and uses it in ways they don't understand. They are worse than fresh grads with marketing degrees.

Since my caveat ended up below the More button, I feel the need to say that I'm actually NOT a bible-thumper, but I learned bible-thumperese against my will as a child. It comes in handy when crap church people use crap theology. But damn, these people piss me off.

Safer to offer your contact information to the lawyer with the client who shared your name who died in a plane crash and left no survivors and has millions in the bank.

can we call them Mars Ass-Hills?

"You guuuuuuuys, do you know how hard it is to be a scary cult but still look like a normal neighborhood church to people who don't know any better? It's not like we're Scientology, here! We have tens of millions, not hundreds of millions! Cut us a little slaaaaaack!"

Wow, that totally alleviated any impression I had that MH is a cult.

"We can't really respond to these allegations without making public the dirty sexy secrets of our members. If you feel aggrieved, please fill out this form with your information so we can discuss it privately."

@15, exactly.

It would be kind of cool for a whole bunch of people to fill that form out and take up the time of a whole bunch of the probably hundreds of "pastors" in the dozens of MH churches in this area.

Jesus H Christ that is creepy. "bottom line we love people"
No thanks. Nope. I have plenty of love and do not need any MH love.
Ick.

"I respect and understand that you have trust issues since you told me you were violated when young, so let's just hug andcuddle until you feel comfortable and then I'll make a move on you."

I'm an Athiest, so maybe I'm wrong about this, but I always thought that people sinned against God, not other people?

It's a shame that there isn't an easy way to simply import the entire whosigned Ref 71 database into that MH web form. That'd keep 'em busy - or recruiting - for awhile.

@23, depends on what religion you're talking about, and what you regard as "sin". Reasonable religions consider hurting other people to be the real sin. Mars Hill and other fundamentalist dictatorships, however, apparently know better.

Baby I'm real sorry I hit ya. Now you just come on back to me...You know I'll never do it again... I just love you sooo much that sometimes you make me crazy you fucking bitch!!!

Sounds like they want a hundred flowers to blossom.

"... a young woman sexually sinned against" is in the running for the grossest most despicable thing I've heard this year. That sounds like rape. If it's rape, the police should be involved. If it's not rape, then unless the "young woman" is a RealDoll it really kind of is typically a two player game.

Gross gross gross. Until women are full and willed people in your worldview, your religion should be laughed/shunned out of the world.

So, sexually sinning against something is what... like dry humping a wall?

I filled out the form...HILARITY WILL ENSUE!!!!!

I hate to burst yer Stranger Social Impact bubble, but I suspect the public "call to reconcile" --such as it is-- is more likely to stem from the "negative press" coming from THIS PIECE in last week's Seattle P.I. than as a result of the Stranger's heathen, demonic coverage of the topic.

Although you did scoop the P.I. by a month or two, obviously, to be sure.

@13 infrequentposter,
I liked your rant. I wish it would get air-time with the people who need to hear it most.

@28: I grew up in this kind of church. I was taught that boys & men had to struggle with sexual lust while we girls had to struggle against a lust to get married. No joke.

In there worldview, if a man and woman do "too much" sexually, it's always about him, because women have no sexual impulses, unless they've been corrupted by men.

Here's the really gross thing - The Stranger has for years supported this church by promoting the bands that are bread from the church and used as recruiting tools. Expose the bands, and expose the way they recruit new members. Or keep writing about the bands, send people to the shows, and get the church new members and their leaders more money.

PS - the church in Belltown is expanding. Now that's fucked up.

Yep, still sounds more like Scientology than any church concerned about the goodwill of the lay. Mars Hill is getting their current contact information because they've likely already harassed them in the past and the "critics" may have changed their telephone numbers to get away.

@34, are you talking about the Paradox all-ages shows?

Interesting stuff. Ever wonder how much money from the Seattle Tattoo Expo winds up going to Mars Hill Church ? Indirectly, of course, but not a dime of mine.

@38: Plenty of money from Wildrose neighbor Supergenius Tattoo goes to nasty gay-haters, surely.

Dear Brendan, my first reading of any of your work was the one with +200 replies. I accepted it as well-"written" until I realized your complete bias as a online blogger. It is in fact a well-written skewed side to a story. It is very clear you have a strong dislike towards Mars Hill--from your many articles questioning it. I encourage you to pursue a focus on clarity and an overarching view of all sides to your future articles. Perhaps this skill could best be pursued on a topic where your hatred (a strong word I mulled over using) isn't so obvious. Even in this follow-up reply you write persuasively to convey a one-side view.

Dear other readers/posters, my disclaimer? I have newly started attending Mars Hill for 2 months. I have enjoyed the journey of learning more about Jesus than I ever have. And I was raised in a Christian family for my whole life under another denomination. The same Biblical based principles apply. I've felt nothing but love from the church goers/ members/pastors ...etc.
***I ENCOURAGE YOU READERS TO READ THE ENTIRE M.H. REPLY that Brendan cut his biased view from. PLEASE...? I'll post it below.
Thank you and God Bless.
________________________________________________
Dear Mars Hill,

Lately, we’ve gotten some negative press regarding two specific church discipline cases, which has led to speculation regarding and criticism of our church discipline process. In each of the stories surrounding these cases both in various blogs and in the news media, there has unfortunately been some misinformation. Such is the nature of commenting and reporting on private issues between two parties, especially when it comes to issues that are emotionally charged to begin with.

Rather than try and defend ourselves or refute misinformation, we simply wish to say that as a church, we’re saddened by this continual attempt to drag into public very private and sensitive issues that were church matters. As with any story that has two sides, the natural tendency is for people to lean toward their prejudices. If they don’t like Mars Hill, these stories will serve to cement their beliefs regardless of what we say. For those who are part of Mars Hill and love the church, there is a tendency to take the defensive.

Rather than attack or defend, we wish to reconcile. We are saddened that in some cases people have been hurt, both people who are no longer at Mars Hill Church and those who still call us their church home. While we reiterate that the overwhelming majority of our church discipline cases are healthy and restorative, there are certainly times where things don’t go as they should—both from our end and from the end of those who are in the process.

To our critics, we’d humbly ask you to imagine how complicated situations such as this are for us. When someone says they have a issue with us, they get to tell the media their side of the story. If we tell the other side of the story, we risk breaching laws and exposing people—both the people in the discipline process and the people they’ve sinned against—to public backlash. The choice for us as a church is often to either take the hits in the press or put one of our members forward (often a young woman sexually sinned against) to let our members take the hits and endure the criticism. Obviously, we’d rather take the hits as a church than expose our members to the media and potentially break the law by divulging private information shared in a counseling session by a victim.

Here’s the bottom line: we love people. Our goal is always repentance and reconciliation in the discipline process and that the process would be loving, grace-filled, and reflect the heart of Jesus. We don’t always get it right. But, in this instance we ask that you would pray for your leaders, love your city, and wait until we all stand before Jesus to get the facts and a clear verdict.

If you want to know what we believe about church discipline biblically, we recently wrote about it here.

If you want to know what we think about it practically, read our response here.

Naturally, we’ve been following these stories closely, and a handful of people have stepped out to discuss their experiences. Quoted in various sources are people who’ve given their stories anonymously. Since we don’t know who they are, we’d love to meet with them and serve them and begin a process of reconciliation. So please, if you’re reading this, do let us know who you are so we can do all we can to love you by sitting down to meet, listen, and serve. For the two mentioned in the KOMO story, we’d love to meet with you also to do the same.

And for those who used to be Mars Hill Church members seeking to resolve something from the past, including the majority in the news stories that have not been at our church in roughly six years, the best way to do that is not through the media but rather by meeting with a Mars Hill pastor. Our desire is for reconciliation between us and you. This won’t mean we’ll always see eye to eye, but can and should talk face to face in a spirit of humility and grace. Please fill out this brief form so we can begin this process. We offer this all as a means of opening up a line of reconciliation in the hopes of making it as easy for you as possible.

- The Mars Hill pastors

Dear Brendan, my first reading of any of your work was the one with +200 replies. I accepted it as well-"written" until I realized your complete bias as a online blogger. It is in fact a well-written skewed side to a story. It is very clear you have a strong dislike towards Mars Hill--from your many articles questioning it. I encourage you to pursue a focus on clarity and an overarching view of all sides to your future articles--In WHATEVER topic. Perhaps this skill could best be pursued on a topic where your hatred (a strong word I mulled over using) isn't so obvious. Even in this follow-up reply you write persuasively to convey a one-wide view.

Dear other readers/posters, my disclaimer? I have newly started attending Mars Hill for 2 months. I have enjoyed the journey of learning more about Jesus than I ever have. And I was raised in a Christian family for my whole life under another denomination. The same Biblical based principles apply. I've felt nothing but love from the church goers/ members/pastors...etc.
***I ENCOURAGE YOU READERS TO READ THE ENTIRE M.H. REPLY that Brendan cut his biased view from. PLEASE...? I'll post it below.
Thank you and God Bless.
________________________________________________
Dear Mars Hill,

Lately, we’ve gotten some negative press regarding two specific church discipline cases, which has led to speculation regarding and criticism of our church discipline process. In each of the stories surrounding these cases both in various blogs and in the news media, there has unfortunately been some misinformation. Such is the nature of commenting and reporting on private issues between two parties, especially when it comes to issues that are emotionally charged to begin with.

Rather than try and defend ourselves or refute misinformation, we simply wish to say that as a church, we’re saddened by this continual attempt to drag into public very private and sensitive issues that were church matters. As with any story that has two sides, the natural tendency is for people to lean toward their prejudices. If they don’t like Mars Hill, these stories will serve to cement their beliefs regardless of what we say. For those who are part of Mars Hill and love the church, there is a tendency to take the defensive.

Rather than attack or defend, we wish to reconcile. We are saddened that in some cases people have been hurt, both people who are no longer at Mars Hill Church and those who still call us their church home. While we reiterate that the overwhelming majority of our church discipline cases are healthy and restorative, there are certainly times where things don’t go as they should—both from our end and from the end of those who are in the process.

To our critics, we’d humbly ask you to imagine how complicated situations such as this are for us. When someone says they have a issue with us, they get to tell the media their side of the story. If we tell the other side of the story, we risk breaching laws and exposing people—both the people in the discipline process and the people they’ve sinned against—to public backlash. The choice for us as a church is often to either take the hits in the press or put one of our members forward (often a young woman sexually sinned against) to let our members take the hits and endure the criticism. Obviously, we’d rather take the hits as a church than expose our members to the media and potentially break the law by divulging private information shared in a counseling session by a victim.

Here’s the bottom line: we love people. Our goal is always repentance and reconciliation in the discipline process and that the process would be loving, grace-filled, and reflect the heart of Jesus. We don’t always get it right. But, in this instance we ask that you would pray for your leaders, love your city, and wait until we all stand before Jesus to get the facts and a clear verdict.

If you want to know what we believe about church discipline biblically, we recently wrote about it here.

If you want to know what we think about it practically, read our response here.

Naturally, we’ve been following these stories closely, and a handful of people have stepped out to discuss their experiences. Quoted in various sources are people who’ve given their stories anonymously. Since we don’t know who they are, we’d love to meet with them and serve them and begin a process of reconciliation. So please, if you’re reading this, do let us know who you are so we can do all we can to love you by sitting down to meet, listen, and serve. For the two mentioned in the KOMO story, we’d love to meet with you also to do the same.

And for those who used to be Mars Hill Church members seeking to resolve something from the past, including the majority in the news stories that have not been at our church in roughly six years, the best way to do that is not through the media but rather by meeting with a Mars Hill pastor. Our desire is for reconciliation between us and you. This won’t mean we’ll always see eye to eye, but can and should talk face to face in a spirit of humility and grace. Please fill out this brief form so we can begin this process. We offer this all as a means of opening up a line of reconciliation in the hopes of making it as easy for you as possible.

- The Mars Hill pastors

@41: "Dear other readers/posters, my disclaimer? I have newly started attending Mars Hill for 2 months. I have enjoyed the journey of learning more about Jesus than I ever have. And I was raised in a Christian family for my whole life under another denomination"

And what on earth does that have to do with how they've treated their former members?

Feeling Christ's spirit doesn't make one religious group more holy than any other, the experiential is yours.

"The same Biblical based principles apply."

And you sound the same as any born-againer. It's normal, but nothing special to those outside of your experience.

"I've felt nothing but love from the church goers/ members/pastors...etc."

And I'm sure the former members did as well, until they were made outcasts. Why does their opinion bother you so much if you're content? Let them lead their own lives seeing god through a different Church and stop trying to expect other people to conform to what makes *you* happy.

You've been a member of the church for all of two years. Don't be such an ass to tell those longer-term members what they experienced in their time.

41-reply @42:
Honestly, my biggest concern over this the topic is that it is a very powerful set of experiences as a whole. There are obviously hurtful experiences AND a large handful for many peoples' betterment via Mars Hill--or others through churches large and small. Right? Don't get me wrong, the claims of the 'victims' are disturbingly cautionary to myself. Although, I don't see how I could cause future fear of a church for my future...but I can't help but notice things now. Anyway, it's so hard to describe these things. It's a very big issue with many variables. I won't pretend to be informed enough to debate the claims, ethics, reasons ...etc.

I only referenced my back-story as a disclaimer to my personal bias, not in any way to force my views on anyone. I sorry if it came across that way. Two MONTHS (correcting clarification), is my limited experience. I can only verify my personal experience on the matter.

I was just compelled to write in as I felt compelled to say something about the new church that I started to attend. And, yes, I can only verify my experience, perhaps only to me as it seems.

As with any worldly bias, I will end with a comedy truth (IMHO!): "There are 3 sides to every story: His, Hers, and The Truth"

@43: Sure, I can dig that reply. The thing is, Mars Hill does have a more authoritarian bent than many, and it's unsurprising that this may not grate well with many people who may not share the opinion that its leadership are any more or less in touch with God than other groups.

How you feel the Spirit likely has more to do with ~you~ than with the organizational structure of your current Church.

"This won’t mean we’ll always see eye to eye, but can and should talk face to face in a spirit of humility and grace. Please fill out this brief form so we can begin this process. We offer this all as a means of opening up a line of reconciliation in the hopes of making it as easy for you as possible."

I think the reason why former members spoke out to the media was that Mars Hill made it clear that there was to be no discussion, that they set the rules. Which is their right, but they should not act so shocked and surprised when the shunning and humiliation that they chose to wield was taken as harshly as it was intended to be. Does that make sense?

I mean, the leader of your sect was recently crowing about how they "don't make monuments to critics". If he's worrying about his legacy so much in life, I don't see why the opines of the lay matter to him.