Just because the South says it isn't racist doesn't mean it isn't racist.

Sadly most MSM "journalists" are now mostly storytellers who have never lived in the South, and thus don't recognize the code words used in speech there.

Remember, Hoodies Up at Saturday's Sounders game!

> Remember, Hoodies Up at Saturday's Sounders game!

+1 #1!!!

Until this the debate in response to this tragedy, everyone I saw supporting a death penalty for Fashion Crimes was kidding.

it would be ok only if he also had an empty plastic bag with marijuana residue. because that's an illegal schedule 1 narcotic.

@4 unless you're old and white, then it's ok, right?

"Zimmerman’s friend Joe Oliver said that Martin would not have been shot to death if Trayvon had just said “I’m staying with my parents.” Of course, Zimmerman was not a police officer, and Trayvon had no duty to tell him who he was or where he was going."

Actually this is something I can agree with.
Wouldn't the world be so much nicer and more polite if any white guy could stop any black guy at any time and demand to know what he was doing there?

And if an answer was refuse then the white guy could shoot the black guy.

People actually think like that. Case in point, Zimmerman's "friend". Does Zimmerman think the same way his "friend" thinks?

It's pretty fucked up that people are wasting their time trying to discredit a dead 17 year old. He's dead, his family will be in mourning for a lifetime. Regardless Zimmerman, even if found innocent will never reach his dream of being a cop. Damage is done. Let the courts decide.
But whatever you feel. Stop talking shit about a dead teenager. It's tasteless, disgusting and petty. Anyone who engages in it should be always remembered as the person who spat on the grave of a teenager they never met but simply trashed for political reasons.

@7,

Zimmerman, even if found innocent will never reach his dream of being a cop.

Thank god for small mercies.

To these people all blacks look alike, so it might as well be the same kid as far as they're concerned.

Police forces nationwide are full of George Zimmermans.

@6,

Definitely explains why his friends and relatives don't think he's racist. They're ALL racist.

OK, so, a question for these right wing racist fuckers out there supporting Zimmerman: If a young, hispanic man with a gun and an attitude confronts you in your gated community, asks you what you are doing there, what would you do? Meekly reply that you belong there? For a bunch of hispanic-phobic, over-protective, off-my lawn types, they sure love a guy who is everything they fear.

Also, if people haven't seen this yet:
http://geraldoinahoodie.tumblr.com/

@11

What does it mean, then, when you know for a fact that you're a racist?

Incidentally, as a racist, I find the slaying of Trayvon Martin to be completely reprehensible; so, don't let racists like the Zimmermans give the rest of us a bad name; or do; I don't give a shit--like I need your fucking praise.

I'm reminded of the "Epic Beard Guy" thing from last year or whenever it was, that stupid internet sensation about the crazy, aggressive white dude "taking down a young black punk" that turned out to A) not be guilty of all that much and B) not actually be very young at all. Assholes all over have some fictional anti-ideal of a Young Black Thug in their heads, and anybody who fits even one of those descriptors might as well qualify for all of them. Who cares about the actual facts of the situation when we can attack some straw man or otherwise fall back on fiction that confirms our biases or plays up to our fears? (See also: Any "BUT WHAT IF A POOR BELEAGUERED HOMEOWNER JUST TRYING TO PROTECT HIS FAMILY"-style arguments in favor of Florida's stand-your-ground murder permissions.)

What about the misinformation campaign of the MSM and Matrin's family's media savvy attourny that uses a 5 year old picture of Trayvon that depicts him as a innocent 12 year old?

@15- Well, it's actually a picture of him rather than some random black kid, so I'm gonna give it a pass.

Wait.

Scoring points in the conservative vs. liberal debate that's always raging across the internet is a bad thing?

We're talking about points. Scoring them. As in, your score goes up. I mean DUH PEOPLE. Don't tell me all of a sudden low scores are better than high scores. More points = better. I know that much.

@15 In his parents mind he will always be what he was every year of his life, someone with a future, hopes, and dreams.

You are a sick mf for thinking it is more ok to stalk and kill an unarmed law abiding citizen if he looks 17 rather than 13.

I'm now totally believing that the gun nut movement is a white racist movement because these people want laws dealing with guns to benefit white people only. Sick white racists.

An P.S. at least one out of three kids at any high school these days smokes weed at one time or another, including all the white suburban high schools in King Co and the white majority Seattle high schools north of the ship canal.

@18
So if I say...got struck down by the a drunken SLUT driver, my picture that is shown should be one taken when I was 12 because that is who my parents remember?

Using a picture of a cute 12 year old to represent an angry grilled 17 year old is just a tad disingenuous. It hurts the cause more than it helps. But in this case it seems more people are looking for revenge than truth.

Gun owners come in all races, sexes, shapes, sizes and sexual identities. For example main shooting buddies are Lebanese and a Jewish homosexual. The counter staff at Surplus Ammo and Arms where I shop are far more diverse than most groups hanging out on capitol hill. I think the racist is the one who you look at in the mirror every morning.

I am beginning to think that the anti-gun anti-self defense movement has more to do with the fact that criminals prefer unarmed victims.

The Seattle PI -- think tank that it is -- is already re-running a story from the Orlando Sentinel that somehow Martin held Zimmerman in a beat down!

This after it's already known that the police dispatcher recorded Zimmerman on his own phone stalking Martin and told him to stand down and not follow him!!

@19 - According to whom is Trayvon "angry" and "grilled"? You must be reading one of the right-wing disinformation sites this very article speaks of. I guess apparently being a young black male in a neighborhood some asshole thinks you "don't belong in" justifies violence these days.

@20

My thoughts exactly.

So an unarmed 17 year old holds down a 28 year old with a gun and a history of paranoia, after that same 28 year old has been stalking the 17 year old?

Yeah, um, bullshit!

Geraldo has been a piece of shit ever since the "Secrets of Al Capone's Vault" days. He deserves a beat down.

@19 Oh, I see. If some stranger starts hassling a kid walking down a public street (and who is clearly holding some tea and candy) demanding to know where the kid's going, ordering him about like he expects to be obeyed, chasing after him in order to tell him who's boss - and the kid responds with a fuck you or any sign of annoyance, the kid is ANGRY. He's not angry in the moment, being angry is just part of who he is.

So that's how it works.

@23

Make that a "gun wielding stranger"....

Didn't Martin have a right to fight for his life against the SS Killer (Stalk-Slay) Zimmerman?

@19 You said it, "criminals prefer unarmed victims", criminals like Zimmerman. If the teen had had a gun and shot Zimmerman you'd be calling for his blood. You know it too, because you've already labeled him a thug to protect your gun nut pall Zimmerman. The double standard makes these laws racist in practice and therefore racist in conception because we all know it.

You gun nuts prefer unarmed victims of your mistakes, your insanity, and your hate, and your guns.

If you really believed in the 2nd amendment equally applied you wouldn't be using - appeal to racism - to argue for your conception of it.

@21
According to his recent photograph, take a look:
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/cutline/tray…

@22
Most of you probably don't have much fighting experience, an in shape 6'3" 150 pound teenage athlete will take a 5'9" lard ass wannabe mall cop any day of the week. to quote fight club "Abraham Lincoln, good reach, skinny guys fight till they're burger." I spent 4 years working corrections in a psych facility, tall skinny guys were generally the most dangerous.

Also anyone who you disagree with deserves a "beat down"? Good luck on that tough guy.

@23
There is no law against following someone, and being followed or questioned is generally not a reason to fear for your life or assault someone, though I agree Zimmerman should not have followed him to begin with. Also under FL law, you do not have the right to self defense if you provoke the altercation unless you are met with overwhelming force and face the threat of serious bodily injury or death. Even if Zimmerman did provoke the initial assault he still has a right to self defense if he feels he is being overwhelmed. Witnesses also said that Martin was on top of Zimmerman pounding his head into the pavement. Zimmerman also claims that Martin attempted to take his weapon, I have a feeling Zimmerman's weapon retention skills were about as poor as the rest of his "law enforcement" skills.

The most likely scenario is that this was the tragic consequence of the meeting of two social inept idiots, one who happened to be armed. With his deductive and deescalation skills thank god Zimmerman did not become a cop.

Fact of the matter is there is a federal investigation and justice will be served via due process rather than half truths and internet rage.

@25
If the teen has shot Zimmerman we wouldn't have heard of it as most black on white/hispanic/black violence goes either unreported or under reported in the name of political correctness.

I've got some 23+ years of firearms experience and have shot no one, in fact I work in Emergency Medicine, you know, the business of saving lives. However I also have seen the ugliness and violence that people bring on others first hand and choose to defend myself. Not to mention I get about 1 death threat a week. http://www.lni.wa.gov/Safety/Topics/AtoZ…

This is a really strong statement Paul:

The right-wing media machine has been hard at work trying to retroactively paint a dead teenager as someone who deserved to be killed.

Can you point to any high profile media figure that actually said, or even implied, such a thing? I highly doubt you could find such a sentiment from any of the four GOP candidates, including Fox news personalities or contributors, bloggers, or even Rush Limbaugh.

The answer is no, you can't.

Now, for the record, I don't doubt in for a second that Trayvon was killed by a trigger happy vigilante let go by the police because under a stupid law. It's horrendously appalling.

There are no left-wing or right-wing media machines. Its just whoever shouts the loudest and has the greatest impact on the news cycle that steers the overall media. No machine involved; it's simply a soup of fermentation and acidity by a lot of people with too much time on their hands.

Your job is to avoid heated rhetoric and offer reasoned analysis to your readers rather than to always ride the wave of your own partisan punditry at every nook and turn.

#26

He didn't "follow" him.

He pursued him with a loaded weapon.

Intent: Kill

Kill the way a serial kills.

Plan. Stalk. Kill. George Zimmerman.

@28 are you defending the attempted character assisination of a dead teenager?

@27 You promote policies that flood the society with firearms, encourage mentally ill people to violence, and exacerbate the violent and chaotic conditions you claim to abhor.

Yes, if Martin had been the shooter in identical conditions we probably wouldn't be talking about it to this degree because your gun nut laws weren't put in place to protect persons of color and the corporate media wouldn't be providing a platform for his defenders in any case. If the races were switched, you wouldn't be saying any of this dirt to suggest a 17 year old white high school student walking back from the store deserved to die.

Does Michelle Malkin not count, Phoebe?

@32: Did she say he deserved to be killed?

Does a woman who defends internment and models herself after Ann Coulter think that a murdered black kid got what was coming to him? Hmm.

@33 Not directly. But why would you drag up dirt or even look for it? He's a dead child. I thought the right was supposed to care about them. Surely you have to be disgusted by anyone tarnishing the name of a dead child.

I am proud to say that I don't hang around or otherwise associate with any rightwingers, so I don't have to worry about defending Trayvon against their racism and bigotry.

@33

Conservatives always blame the victim, you see.

Geraldo says it's because he was wearing a hoodie, others say he was disrespectful while others try to make the kid out to be the actual aggressor.

It's just like rape victims. If a raped woman wasn't drinking or wasn't wearing a mini-skirt she wouldn't have been raped, don't you know.

And yes, there is a right wing media machine. When all the pundits and all the radio show hosts (90% of whom are conservative) start talking from the same talking point, then yes, that is a machine.

There needs to be a true fair and balanced media. The Fairness Doctrine, which Reagan killed, needs to be reinstated, at least for radio.

A few days ago none of us knew that he was suspended for school with a empty bag with traces of weed. Most of us assumed he lived in that neighborhood when he clearly was being sent to live with his father as punishment for being suspended.

A few days ago, none of us knew that he fought with Zimmerman, broke his nose, sent him to the sidewalk pavement and proceeded to slam the back of his head against the sidewalk pavement.

I dont read Fox News, so I have no idea what theyre saying, but I wouldn't call it a smear campaign if facts of the case are being leaked to fend off calls for police to resign over this.

All of this doesnt change the fact that Zimmerman is a bigot and a coward. It just adds more to light that Martin was more than capable of attacking Zimmerman and obviously capable of making dumb decisions (like smoke a bud on the way to school and forget about the baggy still in your pocket).

@1: YFOS.

It's amazing how many experts on this case are making comments right here on slog; doubly amazing that so many of the commenters seem to know exactly what's in the heart and mind of Mr. Zimmerman.

I don't know the details - in fact, haven't been following too closely. I do know that if someone held me down repeatedly and slammed my head into the pavement, whatever the reason, I'd use any means necessary, including deadly force, to stop them. Even if he was a poor, stereotyped black teenager. Guess I'm a racist!

Guys, the injuries to Zimmerman amounted to a bloody nose, some scratches, and a bump on the back of the head. HE claims that Martin started it. Other witnesses don't agree.

Zimmerman did not go to the hospital for his injuries. How could his head have been repeatedly slammed into the pavement, and he didn't require stitches?

Two minutes between when Trayvon's girlfriend heard Zimmerman approach and the shot. Can someone 100 pounds lighter beat the snot out of someone so badly that they are in fear of death or serious bodily harm in less than two minutes? Someone who was not trained in martial arts or boxing?

I'm not buying it.

@35: That's the point: "not directly." Stupid, insensitive, and tarnishing comments by Giraldo and others are reprehensible but it is vastly different than saying the boy deserved his death. There's enough hateful rhetoric going on without silly amateur pundits like Paul ascribing "deserved to be killed" sentiments on political adversaries. What happened to civility?

@44'
'Stupid, insensitive, and tarnishing comments by Giraldo and others are reprehensible'
.. 'what happened to civility ? '
phoebe, you should leave it at that.

Paul,
@38 & @48 make excellent points. You should keep it civil.

This tragedy is getting too politicized. It will get absurd soon. I just read that Trayvon's mother sought copyright protection for "Justice for Trayvon" and "I am Trayvon"

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/na…

It's getting out of control. Look, I still want Zimmerman arrested but I have a sneaking feeling the DOJ won't arrest him because they may not have a case against him especially with more details being released. Better to seek repeal of the Florida law.

Whoops! Meant to say @28Phoebe & 38Kinison make good points.

I think anyone carrying a gun (including the police) has an obligation to avoid using it and George Zimmerman let his desire to be a hero lead him into making some really stupid decisions that make him 100% responsible for the death of Trayvon Martin and he should suffer the consequences. Blaming the victim really pisses me off and anyone who says Trayvon could have avoided being shot by not wearing a hoody (in the rain) or cooperating (with a complete stranger who's been following him) is an idiot. But branding George Zimmerman as some evil racist bad guy isn't fair, either. He's a stupid overzealous wannabe cop with a license to carry a deadly weapon and now an innocent kid is dead and no matter what happens he'll pay for it the rest of his life. If anything good is to come of this it will have to be in the form of the police changing the way they investigate these sorts of situations and changing the laws that make them possible.

Ironically, on George Zimmerman's application to the police he states about his 2005 arrest, "I was in an altercation with an undercover officer that was taking part in a ATF sting for underage drinking, He never told me he was an officer and assaulted me first ."

It doesn't matter to me if Trayvon started the scuffle or if he had recently been suspended because someone found pot residue in his bag, he would be alive if George Zimmerman had followed Neighborhood Watch protocol and listened to the 911 dispatcher and stayed in his car with his gun and let the police do their job. I don't think he's an evil racist and I'm sure he is devastated by what he's done but he is 100% responsible for Trayvon Martin's death and he should be held accountable for it. No amount of dirt dug up on this kid is going to change that, at least not for me.

@44 that's how misinformation and fear spreads. Very few hate mongers spew their hatred directly. The allude to it. The audience picks it up easily. There's a great phrase for it, it's called dog whistle politics. Want proof that it's working? Read the comment section of any of these right-wing pages that have potrayed Martin in a bad light. Guys like Limbaugh aren't bad in themselves. It's all the people who listen to him and expand on his ideas.
I'm sure someone will point out that the left his been doing the same thing to Zimmerman. It's true. But the fundamental difference is Martin is a dead minor and Zimmerman is alive and will have his day in court.

@44- Civility went in the trash heap when it became a mask for racist innuendo, which is what you are defending here. You're calling people bad for pointing out that Michelle Malkin and others are attempting to justify stalking a shooting a kid because he was "thuggish" (which means young, black and casually dressed). POINTING OUT THAT OTHER PEOPLE ARE BEING ASSHOLES DOES NOT MAKE YOU AN ASSHOLE.

@49: Hate mongering also includes painting political adversaries as saying that Trayvon deserved to die -- when nobody ever suggested that.

@51 You still haven't answered any of my questions Phoebe, you never do. Not on this thread, not on any others. You just change the subject. I like the idea of discussing issues with someone who clearly has a different world view, but it can't be done without some kind of back and forth. Ideally with questions and answers.
People have suggested that Martin was a thug and ZImmerman legitimately defended himself. You then twisted the subject and object around to make it mean "Martin deserved to die". Do you see what I'm getting at?
Here's another very basic example. Are you wearing a hat? Or is the hat riding on top of your head?

@52: You're saying that the remarks painting Trayvon as a thug, the hoddie, etc., are spreading hate. I agree with that. But it was Paul Constant who took it to the gasoline-on-a-fire level by saying that the right-wing is "trying to retroactively paint a dead teenager as someone who deserved to be killed" -- that's what I'm objecting to. Nobody is saying that Trayvon deserved to be killed. People are entitled to their opinions, but not their own facts.

Oops I meant *hoodie* in 52.

@53 I guess you didn't get my point. You've disappointed me.

@55: The feeling is mutual.

@56 You're never going to answer any question are you? I've answered every question you've presented.
Here's a test. How have I disappointed you? Please be honest, thoughtful and civil. I'll be back in a few hours and reply. It'd be nice to see if you can answer a question.

@26 - Thanks for revealing your real colors Mr. "Canadian Bacon" (a damn shame the bigot here claims to be Canadian, Canada generally has a better record with race relations than the US these days). The photo you linked is a Photoshop job done by Stormfront, one of the very disinformation pieces the ThinkProgress article linked in this article warns about. Let's even say Trayvon did have a gold tooth - this justifies stalking and murdering him? You're living up to the description of the modern bigot someone else pointed out: they have a description of the "Criminal Black Male" in their head and any black person who lives up to even 1 trait of this image in their minds automatically deserves suspicion and even violence against them.

1) There is no evidence that Trayvon is 6'3, this is a rumor Zimmerman-defenders have pulled out of thin air. Even if Trayvon was 6'3 what does it have to do with anything? Being tall does not mean you can beat up a shorter person. Especially a shorter man who is 11 years older and outweighs you by over 100 lbs. You think Yao Ming could beat up Arnold Schwarzenegger or Terry Crews (the Old Spice guy)? Lol

2) It is illegal to follow someone after a certain point. It's called "stalking".

3) It's certainly illegal when the police tell you not to do it and you grab a gun, stalk a kid home and get out of your car to confront him. That would actually be self-defense for Trayvon since Zimmerman stalked him and got out of the vehicle to confront him with a GUN. Let a strange black man follow you home in a car and a gun and get out to ask you what you're doing there and let's see you claim the black man was in the right. If Zimmerman was black and did that to a 17 year old white Trayvon Martin and the white Trayvon shot him I'm pretty sure you'd defend Martin.

4) It's not self-defense when you stalk a person and confront them. Self-defense also has to be proportional, you can't shoot someone in the chest while they're lying on the ground screaming for "Help" (according to witness statements) because they bloodied your nose in a fight you started.

"as most black on white/hispanic/black violence goes either unreported or under reported in the name of political correctness."

And this shows your mindset right here. Since when is there a shortage of the media reporting black criminals? The 7 and 11 O'Clock news shows MOSTLY black and Hispanic criminals.

@40 - Read my post. Self-defense is not justified when you stalk and confront a person with a gun and they get the best of you. If a black man stalked a 17 year old white kid home, got out with a weapon and said white kid slammed his head on the pavement, you'd support the black stalker shooting the white kid? My guess is "No".

Also, if Zimmerman was so hurt why didn't he go to the hospital and why did he lie to the police? If Martin was damn near killing him certainly he'd need to go to the ER.....

@38 - Well anyone is capable of making dumb decisions (though I'm suspicious about the truthfulness and relevance of the weed story). The point is though that at most Martin defended himself against a violent stalker, which is certainly not a crime. Zimmerman IS the violent stalker in question and those attempting to say Martin deserved what happened are not only twisting the story, omitting key facts on purpose or even outright lying it's also morally reprehensible and usually seems to have a racial undertone. Zimmerman's defenders are desperate to paint Trayvon as a "Criminal Black Man" or at the very least imply that anyone should have the right to grab a weapon, walk up to and interrogate any random black male and the black male should have no right to defend himself.

@57: So what is your question? I'm terribly confused at what you're trying to ask me as I thought I clarified things in @53.

So what if "No-Limit-Nigga" really was stomping the Mexican piss outa the guy when he caught a cap in his ass? And what does it say about minorities (the shooter is Hispanic) and liberals (The shooter is a registered Democrat) that they are so quick to kill innocent little black children (who may or may not have been stomping the Mexican piss out of them)?

While none of the right-wing pundits came right out and said "George Zimmerman was justified in shooting Trayvon Martin to death.", that is certainly the conclusion they are trying to lead people to. What other purpose would there be to portraying the young man as a thug, as a gangster wannabe, as violent, as a drug dealer, as a drug user, as the aggressor, or as anything other than a young man walking home at night after going to the store for a snack?

The simple facts remain that - regardless of the young man's appearance, words or actions - the entire interaction was initiated, pressed, and concluded by Mr. Zimmerman alone. The simple fact is that Mr. Zimmerman had no legitimate authority or purpose for any of his actions. Mr. Zimmerman is responsible for his actions - all of them.

All of these efforts to discredit the victim here is an effort to suggest that the young man played any role in advancing this tragedy. It is an effort to apportion some part of the responsibility for the outcome on the victim, to, essentially, say he brought it on himself, to say that he deserved what he got.

That's the conclusion that these right-wing pundits are drawing people to, whether they explicitly give voice to that conclusion or not.

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...

At that point how credible is it for me to disclaim that I said that it's a duck?

@62 - There is no evidence Trayvon calls himself that. Even if he was:

1) It was self-defense against Zimmerman who was an armed stalker who followed Martin home and got out of his car to confront him. There is no legal right in America to stalk fleeing black males with a weapon and get out to confront them. Any way you cut it the "Stand Your Ground" Law defends Trayvon here.

2) Hispanic is not a race. Neither is Mexican.

3) Zimmerman is not Mexican. Thanks for showing how ignorant you are, assuming being "part-Hispanic" = Mexican.

@58

C A S C A D I A N =/= CANADIAN

Looks like your reading ability is right up there with your reading comprehension so I will try to keep this simple by using small words and symbols

Yahoo news =/= Stormfront

Following =/= Stalking.
Stalking laws tend to require multiple contacts, you know, more than 1.

Request for Due Process of law =/= Racism
Facts =/= Racism
Although blacks do have a violent crime rate seven time higher than whites (source FBI 2010 crime statistic). An anecdote: In my employment about 7 out of ten patients involved in violent assaults on medical staff are black. My most skilled and most trusted coworkers are also black.

Fat wannabe cop =/= Arnold Schwarzenegger
Go re-read my post.
Being in shape > Weight in a fight.
Having taken down people 100lbs or more heavier than me on multiple occasions I have no doubt that Martin could kick Zimmerman's dumb fat ass. I probably have seen/been in/cleaned up, more fights than you have eaten hot meals.

Police dispatcher =/= Police officer
You have no duty to obey the request of a dispatcher.

Witnesses put Zimmerman as the one on the ground. Even Trayvons father said that the voice crying for "help" was not that of his son.

Check on Floridas Self defense law, it says nothing about confrontation, it does say that if you provoke the assault it is not self defense unless you are being met with overwhelming force.

THE FACTS ARE NOT ALL IN YET WHICH IS WHY THERE IS GOING TO BE A FEDERAL INVESTIGATION INTO THE TRUTH.

IF Zimmerman is found guilty, he will pay for his crimes in prison, if not...Well his life is already ruined. Trayvon is dead, soon we will find out why.

Also for Canada to have "Excellent race relations" wouldn't they also have to have other races. That is like saying Montana has excellent race relations. I think I saw 3 black people the last weekend I spent in downtown BC, the same amount I saw in rural Montana. Quite a change from 3rd and Pine in Seattle, or my Central District home.

@59 and @60 Well said, Ares.

A lot of the outrage is the obvious certainty that if the races were switched this would be playing out in a totally different way, and that the stand your ground law is a ready tool for subjective application of social and racial bigotry.

I don't buy the whole "don't blame the victim" ethos. We sometimes hear about someone getting hit by a car and we're supposed to think "Oh the poor victim". Then we hear that the person was crossing Aurora Avenue mid-block in heavy traffic at night while dressed in dark clothes.

Lots of folks in Seattle would continue to cluck about not blaming the victim. I would say that he had it coming. Oddly, so would most conservatives.

Would this "victim" be justified in shooting the driver of an oncoming car? No? Again, I doubt most conservatives would think that action justified. Yet that's Mr. Zimmerman.

He did an unspeakably risky thing and then, when the risks inherent in his choices became apparent, he resorted to deadly force against the person who he himself - improperly and unwisely - involved in the interaction.

So why in the world would conservatives line up behind him? Not based on the facts. Not based on the principles. It is either based on a misplaced trust and respect for Mr. Zimmerman's authority as the self-appointed captain of the Block Watch or plain racism.

@64

So Mexican is not a race, unless a cop says "Imma beat the Mexican piss out of you." Then it suddenly becomes a racist slur.

@66

So you are saying that minorities are more likely to assault people therefore self defense laws cause more minorities to get killed?

@Canadian Bacon - Sorry about the misreading of your name, though everything else I said stands.

The picture comes from Stormfront:

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2012/03…

Apparently you have reading comprehension problems to match my vision problems. Lol

"Following =/= Stalking"

When you follow a stranger home after grabbing a weapon (showing malicious intent), it's stalking. Especially when you get out to confront said victim. The fact is that Zimmerman was the aggressor and at most Trayvon is "guilty" of self-defense. You can call that "black racism" all you want, it's a fact.

"Request for Due Process of law =/= Racism"

Zimmerman isn't being held to due process. That's the problem.

"Witnesses put Zimmerman as the one on the ground"

See what I said earlier. At most this would mean Trayvon defended himself against an armed attacker who was following him home. If a black self-appointed "captain of the neighborhood watch" saw your 17 year old son walking home and grabbed a gun because he found him "suspicious", drove after your son after he fled (as Trayvon did), got out of the car with his weapon on him and shot your son after said man started a confrontation with your son, would you be calling your son the "attacker"? I don't think so.

"Although blacks do have a violent crime rate seven time higher than whites (source FBI 2010 crime statistic)."

That's debatable:

http://www.timwise.org/2004/11/race-crim…

Even according to the FBI stats while elevated it is nowhere near 7 times higher:

http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/data/tabl…

The crime rates for whites are elevated in some categories as well. Such as DUI (which kills as many people every year as murder), arson, child molestation, serial killing, hate crimes etc. What does any of this have to do with Trayvon or Zimmerman?

"Also for Canada to have "Excellent race relations" wouldn't they also have to have other races. That is like saying Montana has excellent race relations. I think I saw 3 black people the last weekend I spent in downtown BC, the same amount I saw in rural Montana. Quite a change from 3rd and Pine in Seattle, or my Central District home."

I'm sure where you live doesn't reflect all of Canada. I was simply saying that Canada has lower hate crime rates (and much lower crime rates in general) than the US. Speaking of black crime, black Canadians also have a much lower crime rate than white Americans per capita (part of the general trend of Canadians having a lower crime rate).

@cracked - Thank you! That's part of my anger at this story as well. People are actually lining up to defend a murderous stalker/vigilante who shot an unarmed kid. Obviously because the kid was black. Then they try to make him out to be a "thug" (playing into every black stereotype) and argue that Trayvon had no right to defend himself by taking Zimmerman's claims of injuries at face value. They argue that if Trayvon so much as touched Zimmerman that makes Trayvon the "aggressor" or at least equally at fault. Nevermind Zimmerman stalked this fleeing kid with a weapon and nevermind Zimmerman not being an authority figure. At least posters on YouTube and Yahoo! Answers defending Zimmerman are usually stupid enough to say things to indicate their racist intentions. Racists are generally stupid or depraved enough that they can't hide their nasty impulses for long.

Florida's "Stand Your Ground" Law perfectly applies to Trayvon in this case yet you have people arguing that Trayvon basically had no right to defend himself. That's how it's always been with these laws - racist double standards. Reminds me of the 1800s and early 1900s back when some southern and midwestern states would allow any white nutcase to carry a gun but literally outlawed any black citizen from owning a gun. This whole case has a very Jim Crow feel to it.

@65 Actually, we already know why Treyvon is dead. Zimmerman had gun.

What we will never know with any certainty at all, is what actually happened, because Zimmerman killed the only other witness to all the events.

Re stalking, you are trying to twist the topic by using the legal definition of stalking. In everyday American life, stalking is a hunting term meaning to follow or approach the route of one's prey to get close enough to kill or capture.

The gun nuts spend a lot of time talking about technicalities to defend the endless number of bad outcomes that have resulted from their crusade to have more guns everywhere all the time. The funny thing is that for all intents and purposes they won their battle 15 or 20 years ago, but it wasn't enough because their ideology requires eternal victimhood and their corporate payrollers don't care about rights at all. The corporate payrollers care about increase in gun sales and fomenting an atmosphere of fear they beleive helps them move forward their political agendas. So, the laws they are crusading for now are getting more an more bizarre, like this stand your ground version of the Castle self-defense concept.

I DON'T LIVE IN CANADA. I live in Seattle, in the Central District. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Dis…

That is not the picture referred too in the blog, that storm front photo shows a shirtless young black guy flipping off the camera.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/cri…

Approx 12% of the population is responsible for 38% of murders
Approx 72% of the populations is responsible for 32% of murders
Total US population is 311,591,917

Do the math, it will be good for you and get your mind on more important things.

http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/data/tabl…
Your chart when adjusted for rate by population, rather than percent of total, the only areas that white people have a higher offense rate than black people are DUI, Drunkenness, and Liquor Law violations

Is math racist?

The crime rate has to do with Zimmerman's mind state and his incorrect assumptions.

@Cascadian Bacon - I just said I was wrong about you living in Canada.

According to your own figures that would mean the black murder rate is 3x higher per-capita (12% responsible for 38% of the murders). If you notice the number of black people in prison for murder in the link you posted is less 6,000 people. So 6,000 out of 42,000,000 people - you do the math.

I mentioned DUI, etc. earlier but there are other crimes not listed there for which white Americans have a higher-than-population size offense rate. Such as hate crimes:

http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/hc2005/victims.h…

And child molestation:

http://childprotection.lifetips.com/cat/…

Arrest rates is also not the same thing as actual committal rates. White Americans use drugs at the same rate as black Americans and white Americans are more likely than black Americans to use marijuana, yet blacks are much more likely to be arrested for possession of it.

http://articles.latimes.com/2010/oct/27/…

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/o…

Same with many other crimes where blacks are more likely to be convicted despite not necessarily doing it any more often than white Americans.

None of this has a damn thing to do with Trayvon or Zimmerman, so why bring it up?

@Cascadian Bacon - Also, here's a recent picture of Trayvon:

http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uplo…

Robert Bales confessed and admitted what he did the day after he did it, then mysteriously the media never brought up that bit of info and indeed none of the eye witness accounts from villagers or the troops who saw him return have been reported since the day after?

children are murdered every fricking day! and the facts are distorted by a shitbag media circus for your American Values.

@Cascadian Bacon -- I am Canadian and your deduction that Canada has no racial minorities based on some trips you took to Vancouver makes you sound a bit dense.

I agree in part with @48. We don't know if Zimmerman is a racist. We do know that his actions were rash -- leaving his car to pursue Trayvon on foot after a police dispatcher instructed him not to, taking a loaded gun with him when he did so -- and we know that those rash actions resulted in wrongful death. We also know that when a wrongful death occurs, when an innocent person is killed, the circumstances of that death need to be fully investigated. That didn't happen in this case. Zimmerman's claim that Trayvon was the aggressor -- despite the fact that an armed Zimmerman left his car to follow Trayvon -- was taken at face value by police. That was a severe error that needs to be corrected. People can argue all they want about all the other details.

Right Wing Media, or Right Wing Social Media, Mr. Martin is being depicted in an unfavorable (IE non-neutral) fashion. I believe the smearing of Mr. Martin has more to do with the "protection" of gun rights than racist spew (but that chance to spew may be a carrot to drum up support).

It would be nice if both camps would heed the request of the special prosecutor(?) and get out of the way of the investigation. For the pro-"stand your ground" types, remember that due process means a full and fair investigation under the law, possibly followed by a fair trial, NOT dismissal because the defendant says he was in the right. It would be nice if the Sanford Police Dept. could be sued for poor performance in their investigation of this incident, but I don't know if that is possible.

Peace.

FWIW I believe Juan Williams nails it:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424…

The police department wanted to arrest Zimmerman on manslaughter charges initially, but the prosecutor held them back, as he did not think there was enough evidence to make any charges stick. This is a pretty standard occurrence, and happens all the time, even when there is better evidence than what we see here.

Zimmerman claims he left Trayvon alone after the initial pursuit, and then Trayvon accosted him outside his SUV, where he shot him after being attacked. No one here knows if that is true, and no one knows if the story which the media overwhelmingly wants to push (Zimmerman just ran him down and shot him) is true either.

Police collected the evidence they could and are processing it. Until they can make findings, no one knows what happened, and anyone who is trying to smear Trayvon OR call for Zimmerman's execution is doing so for personal or political reasons.

Everyone deserves due process, and no one should be arrested and charged without compelling evidence, regardless of how guilty or bloodthirsty society feels that day.

That's what conservatives DO these days -- if the facts aren't to their liking, they simply lie. Funny, I thought their beloved Bible had something in it about bearing false witness. Commandment 9, anybody?

@81 -- There wasn't enough evidence because they didn't bother to gather any or conduct a full and proper investigation. Initially, the police didn't even bother to interview Trayvon's girlfriend, who was on the phone with him when he was confronted by an armed Zimmerman. Do oversights like that happen all the time in cases where an innocent person is shot dead?

Oops, that question was meant for #80.

@78: " I believe the smearing of Mr. Martin has more to do with the "protection" of gun rights than racist spew (but that chance to spew may be a carrot to drum up support). "

The words of someone who hasn't spent much time at gun shows.

@82
There is video now available that shows Zimmerman being brought to the police station.
In the video he does not appear to have any any physical damage to his head / face.

The video MAY not be clear enough to show the damage that he had at that time.
But if so, that means that the damage was small enough not to show up on the video.

Which kind of contradicts any claims that Zimmerman was in any danger from Martin.

The police SHOULD be able to produce PHOTOGRAPHS of the damage that Zimmerman sustained with enough clarity to show the damage.
If the cops did NOT take such photographs then, combined with the video, I suspect that they did not take the photographs because they did not SEE any damage.

@85: Right, he had his "nose broken" and "head slammed against the concrete" but yet his clean-shaven head and face are not damaged in the slightest, zero sign of a struggle as he "fought for his life".

Fuck any and all Zimmerman defenders.

well, it is interesting that Florida will protect you if you shoot someone when you feel your life is in danger, but if you are being followed by a guy who is clearly not a cop and in the following altercation, you punch him (hell, I would have done it TO PROTECT MYSELF), you are at fault.

Personally, Id rather be punched by someone who is afraid of me than shot by them.

@14 Not quite the same thing here. Epic beard guy is unstable, black guy was drunk. They had an argument. Epic beard guy moved to the front of the bus to get away from drunk guy. Drunk guy got up, got in unstable guy's face and then hit him. Drunk guy got the ass kicking he so richly deserved. Things worked themselves out as they should.

Zimmerman, a self appointed keeper of "law and order" followed and confronted a young man who had every right to be where he was. The kid apparently failed to kiss Zimmerman's ass. Zimmerman unable to deal with reality shot this kid in cold blood.

See the difference?

@82: Actually, they collected the clothing both parties wore, and they have photos of the crime scene and of Zimmerman. Apparently recently a couple eyewtiness accounts have been taken and there supposedly exists a video which shows not much damage to Zimmerman(I have not seen it). Also, the public should not even be privy to the investigative details or evidence, so how would you prove that their investigation was poor or that there was none?

The eyewitness accounts are spotty, but seem to support Zimmerman's story, but the apparent video of his face does not. As new evidence comes in, we have to change our outlook on the actual event, not just how it makes us feel.

And a lack of evidence is not necessarily oversight, and actually yes, lack of evidence is a problem often when people are shot dead. I live in Baltimore and it happens almost everyday. Check the clearence rates for gun murders in Baltimore, and you may be alarmed how often people walk after it is most likely they killed someone. Often, there is just not enough evidence to convict. Usually the bad guy walks, regardless of what happens on CSI.

I am not even supporting Zimmerman, as I feel most likely he escalated the event and was ultimately responsible for Trayvon's death. However, my point stands: everyone deserves due process, and no one should be arrested and charged without compelling evidence, regardless of how guilty or bloodthirsty society feels that day.

@89: Eyewitness accounts aren't very much in favor of Zimmerman, Mac. Hearing shouts for help suddenly ended by a gunshot? That's not usually indicative of the shooter being the one calling for help.

@89: I was referring to the two people that reported seeing a "scuffle" with one of the men on top of the other on the ground (neither could tell who was on top). Seems to me that a man with a gun who is willing to pull it and shoot it would not initiate that kind of fight.

Not that it I believe that would exonerate the man anyway, and witness accounts are notoriously unreliable.

The real problem with making charges stick here is that the lack of a second story (Zim. saw to that) and the lack of compelling evidence, coupled with the Stand you Ground law, makes a huge amount of legal gray area for the man to hide in. He is likely guilty, but he will likely walk anyway. He still deserves the same legal protections we all do though.

Oops, above was supposed to be @90, obviously