Unfortunately, I think it's going to turn out like the last Great Debate, where the other side, when they learned they couldn't stack the deck, came up with myriad reasons why they couldn't appear so the event had to be canceled. Don't get me wrong! I'd almost give a testicle to watch and hear Dan shred Brown like he was making Cole Slaw for a thousand! I hope the whole thing gets Broadcast! Anyone got Rachel Maddow's number? I think she would love to be on the sidelines of this!
But did Savage just throw all nicety out the window and devolve this into a chance to beat the crap out of Brown verbally to the point he gives up and walks out? While that would be just desert for the meal Brown and his ilk have served, it may not be a very good PR move. Maybe Savage has had enough, and is going with, "No more Mr. Nice Guy."
Let's just make sure some money gets made, ok? This is the US, after all.
Please, Dan, don't let this guy weasel out of it. Or if he does succeed in getting out of it, please make it abundantly clear that he is the one pulling out, and for reasons that expose his idiocy. Pleeeeeeze!
Oh, and stop calling him names until afterward, or he might claim that he is simply refusing to debate someone who cannot have a civil conversation. Just a suggestion.
...then as the fight drags on, the newscasters covering the debate will say, "...a few cheers, now, for Dan Savage," as Savage starts to win over the crowd.
Then, after Savage wins by unleashing a series of rational blows, pummelling Brown in to submission, he'll give a speech to the crowd about change.
I agree with all those above who say there's no friggin' way Brown will actually show up. You should still totally call his bluff, though. Maybe have someone on tap to come up and argue the NOM position in his place, so it won't look unfair. Is RuPaul doing anything that night?
Make this a charity event with all proceeds going to the Trevor Project (or any anti-bullying organization). Then if he backs out, he'll look bad because he's screwing a charity that helps kids.
@21 - That wouldn't work, as this guy seems to be on the record as thinking that any anti-bullying organization is just a front for the radical gayification and atheist purification of our nation.
It's not going to happen. All he said was any time, any place, so he can't use time and place as excuses, but he can say that the challenge was made with the understanding that terms would have to be established, and Dan and he won't be able to agree to terms.
As for money, why would anyone want to pay for this? The spectacle would be pretty awesome, since I'm confident Dan would wipe his ass on the ground. But it seems that any proceeds would be split between NOM and Dan's charity, and I wouldn't want a cent to go to NOM. (And I think profit-sharing would be one of those unstated conditions, so he'd say, no, Dan can't set the time and then take 100% of the gate for It Gets Better.)
Wow. This will be interesting. Tell him that he needs to address the biblical view of pastor Sean Harris' sermon/ joke on punching four year olds, please.
I'd drop calling him names. That's feeding what seems to be a persecution fetish that many, not all, Christians grumble about.
If he shows or not, he's likely use this as a way to raise funds.
Invest in brown towels. I wise friend once told me that if you wrestle with some full of shit then you get covered in shit. You know him.
You want to borrow one of my Bibles. At one point I had at least 3 translations?
Thanks, Dan. You haven't given us enough bad press this last week. Your decision to double down and enrich NOM's fundraising is a bad one. Brian Brown doesn't care whether he beats you or not in a debate. What he cares about is getting up on stage with someone he can portray as an anti-Christian poster boy. You're handing him a gift just by putting your name in the same sentence as him.
# 41 is right. Brown will pretend to agree about a time and place, and then make some kind of insanely one-sided demand about the terms under which the debate must be conducted. Then he'll try to claim Dan is the one who's not being reasonable. Prepare a strategy for that, Dan, 'cause these NOM bozos are nothing if not predictable.
Hitch would have been the perfect moderator, but since he's lost to us now, I nominate PZ Myers, Richard Dawkins, Rebecca Watson, or Jen "Blag Hag" McCreight.
If they're busy, then I propose Adam and Jamie of Mythbusters. At least Jamie will be able to keep a straight face. (He scientifically proved a week or two ago that he has no expressions.)
Best part of the debate: Brian Brown forced to admit that he thinks parts of the bible are bullshit too! Lobster eating, Gingrich adulterer supporting, non-slave owning DOUCHEBAG.
I tried to post my comment on the NOM website that you should have an escrow deposit contract with them to discourage backing out or impolite shouting down during the show. Still awaiting moderation after four hours. I guess they don't like that idea.
I was hoping for this. Dan'll make mincemeat of the poor soul, but I won't shed a tear of pity. He deserves it. Dan's a jillion times smarter than he is and probably better informed about the Bible too. I can't wait!
I'm with @52: I thought somebody had accepted Dan's choicer challenge. Oh well, this will be good too, if BB shows up. I think @41 and @48 are right. It's a classic right-wing technique.
Brown would like nothing more than to give Savage a podium from which he argues against faith. Brown wants to make it "the Gays vs. the Christians," much like Osama bin Laden wanted to see "the West vs. Islam."
Brown doesn't care what SLOG readers think after the debate. Brown wants footage that he can use to solicit money from his supporters.
Oh please sell tickets to this. Make it pay per view with all proceeds to go to Trevor project. Yes. I can't wait to see this, BrownButt doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell.
OMGIWILLDRIVEALLNIGHTANDPAYMONEYTOSEETHIS. Holy shit. Holy. Motherfucking. Shit. I would thank the the good sweet baby Jesus, but that just seems wrong in this context. So I'll just say PLEASE BE SURE TO HAVE IT IN THE PACIFIC NORTHWEST WHERE I CAN SEE IT LIVE. PLEASE. Or video. LOVE YOU DAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
@58: I'm with you, and I also think that 49 has the wrong approach. I feel like it would be better to have a moderator who is neutral, or at least has no obvious sympathy to one side or the other. Gary Wills seems like a good choice- a man of faith, but not uncritical of the Church.
The Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence, Inc. of San Francisco cordially invite you to hold the debate here in SF at the Gay Community Center. The Sisters would moderate the event and make all the arrangements.
Brian Brown may be an easily-flustered bigot, but he's no idiot. He won't show, he'll cancel, he'll make any excuse he can including hiring a thug to break his leg on the steps of the buidling, but he won't make good. That's for sure. Bigots are cowards.
Would have it been THAT hard for Dan Savage to show a little class in his response. I'm all for "Bring It On" but name calling just makes him look like a bullying juvenile.
Yeah, I kind of agree with the other posters. Brown said that DAN could name the time and place, but unless it's on Fox News with Megyn or one of the other lap dogs moderating, this shit ain't gonna happen. Those folks only like to debate when the deck is stacked for them. Any other location will be "well, we didn't want to go there because THEY'RE biased!" If the debate DOES happen, Brown will be on Fox News within the hour following the debate making it sound like he won.
Maybe it's just me, but would have been so tough for Dan Savage to respond to the challenge without resorting yet again to bullying-like name-calling that makes him look juvenile?
I. Am. So. Happy. PLEASE let it be in Seattle.
Ohhhhhhh. Oh I just thought of something. Could we have Matt in Denver or Venomlash vs Seattleblues as an opening act? Although he'd probably punk out too. Ah well.
Pick a well informed neutral moderator and 7 equally well informed neutral judges approved by both sides and allow each one to ask a question. Trade off who answers the question first and have a preset time limit, 3 minutes per answer, and make the judging a point system based on knowledge of the subject, most well informed answer, etc. Allow a 2 minute closing argument each. Add up the points, if Brian wins Dan will go to Sunday mass with him and The Stranger will not use Brian's name on SLOG for 1 year. If Dan wins, Brian has to go with Dan on an overnight stay to an LGBT youth crisis center and NOM must post an It Gets Better video of Dan's choice.
He is deformed, crooked, old and sere,
Ill-faced, worse bodied, shapeless everywhere;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind;
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
(The Comedy of Errors)
Make sure the debate starts off with each of you getting a fair few minutes to introduce yourselves. Use your introduction to tell the audience about your relationship with your mom and your catholic roots. It'll make Brown look like an asshole by disproving his victimization fetish before the debate's even started.
also...keep being brave. I looked at that nom page and some of the comments and with all due respect to them....THEY ARE NUTTIER THAN THE JIF HEADQUARTERS. Refrain from what can be seen as crass language, but speak confidently and truthfully...and respectfully. Simple basic truths can shatter their arguments and expose contradictions....they revel in intimidation and refusal to acknowledge certain points. you are in the right and as a gay man I'm happy to have someone like you representing me..You are doing great. MWAH. Thanks.
Madison Square Garden with live television coverage on pay-per-view! $50K to each of you with the balance to a legitimate, secular, apolitical charity (e.g. Unicef, Doctors Without Borders, International Red Cross, etc.)
As great as it would be to see this in person, my vote is no live audience. No cheers, jeers, or gladiatorial ring - just good questions and serious debate. If the NOM supporters are there, the cheering and boos will undermine Dan's logic and interrupt him frequently. Either no audience, or strict rules against audience participation.
I know that Dan will absolutely trash any of NOM's feeble arguments against gay marriage. HOWEVER ... I hope that Dan will choose his words carefully. NOM and its allies have shown they have no qualms about taking bits and pieces out of context and portraying gays as a bunch of rabid, profane, religion-hating fascists while ignoring any valid point we ever have to make.
So Dan ... you can win this argument. PLEASE ... for the sake of the cause ... reign in the salty language and generic diatribes and instead rely on your eloquence and passion as well as the TRUTH!
i'm sure you know plenty of progressive biblical scholars, theologians and pastors who can give you some tips -- but if you don't, my church, old first reformed united church of christ in philadelphia, is full of them and i'd be very happy to put you in touch!
You will clean his clock concerning substance. Try to limit the use of four-letter words because that's the only thing he will obsess about, during the debate and later, in an attempt to detract from the fact that you're right.
Dan, you will clean his clock as far as substance. Try to limit the four-letter words because he will obsess about that the during and after the debate in an attempt to distract from the fact that you are right.
#99 is right on that score: Why give him ammunition, which he is looking for to post on his NOM blog? Keep four-letter words and sexual references out of it; just go with your knowledge on the values (of Christianity) which place love, diversity, and human progress above the letter of the law.
Not trying to be a nudge, but as this is such an important opportunity, just wanted to add that you could disarm Brown by being very respectful to him. Since his goal is to "expose" you, that would indeed be disarming, to be very gracious and deferential toward him (while drawing the sword, naturally.) Of course, you could also wear this on your T-shirt:
Please. Please. I need this like WHOA!
But in case by some miracle he does turn up, please please please do this in Seattle so I can attend!!!
NOMnuts. I love that.
But did Savage just throw all nicety out the window and devolve this into a chance to beat the crap out of Brown verbally to the point he gives up and walks out? While that would be just desert for the meal Brown and his ilk have served, it may not be a very good PR move. Maybe Savage has had enough, and is going with, "No more Mr. Nice Guy."
Let's just make sure some money gets made, ok? This is the US, after all.
I'll kick in another sawbuck...the chickenshit won't show.
Oh, and stop calling him names until afterward, or he might claim that he is simply refusing to debate someone who cannot have a civil conversation. Just a suggestion.
Then, after Savage wins by unleashing a series of rational blows, pummelling Brown in to submission, he'll give a speech to the crowd about change.
You need to keep a record of these.
Win 0
Lose 0
Draw 0
Other side threw down the gauntlet and then ran away 1 (soon to be 2)
But oh man, I so hope this happens.
As for time and place ...
How about 3PM on July 29, 2012 in Dore Alley, San Francisco?
http://www.folsomstreetfair.com/alley/
Set the date so that I have enough time to visit and watch!
Right on Dan!
As for money, why would anyone want to pay for this? The spectacle would be pretty awesome, since I'm confident Dan would wipe his ass on the ground. But it seems that any proceeds would be split between NOM and Dan's charity, and I wouldn't want a cent to go to NOM. (And I think profit-sharing would be one of those unstated conditions, so he'd say, no, Dan can't set the time and then take 100% of the gate for It Gets Better.)
Wow. This will be interesting. Tell him that he needs to address the biblical view of pastor Sean Harris' sermon/ joke on punching four year olds, please.
I'd drop calling him names. That's feeding what seems to be a persecution fetish that many, not all, Christians grumble about.
If he shows or not, he's likely use this as a way to raise funds.
Invest in brown towels. I wise friend once told me that if you wrestle with some full of shit then you get covered in shit. You know him.
You want to borrow one of my Bibles. At one point I had at least 3 translations?
If they're busy, then I propose Adam and Jamie of Mythbusters. At least Jamie will be able to keep a straight face. (He scientifically proved a week or two ago that he has no expressions.)
1.God: The Failed Hypothesis: How Science Shows That God Does Not Exist, V.Stenger(physicist)
2.Why We Believe in God(s): A Concise Guide to the Science of Faith, A. Thompson(psychiatrist)
3.Religion Explained, P.Boyer(cognitive anthropologist)
4.The Christian Delusion: Why Faith Fails, Loftus, Barker
5.Letter to a Christian Nation, Sam Harris
Brown would like nothing more than to give Savage a podium from which he argues against faith. Brown wants to make it "the Gays vs. the Christians," much like Osama bin Laden wanted to see "the West vs. Islam."
Brown doesn't care what SLOG readers think after the debate. Brown wants footage that he can use to solicit money from his supporters.
This has to exponentially be the largest "foot in mouth" I've ever witnessed in my 47 years on this planet by this sinful "christian" glutton!!!!
Sister Zsa Zsa Glamour, SPI
zsa@thesisters.org
Ohhhhhhh. Oh I just thought of something. Could we have Matt in Denver or Venomlash vs Seattleblues as an opening act? Although he'd probably punk out too. Ah well.
Engaging Brian Brown would be like swatting a fly with shovel. DO IT SOON!
Love,
Your erstwhile fan
Just thinking.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEKuGcmW7…
Ill-faced, worse bodied, shapeless everywhere;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind;
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
(The Comedy of Errors)
Smack that nasty goof down good, Dan!
So Dan ... you can win this argument. PLEASE ... for the sake of the cause ... reign in the salty language and generic diatribes and instead rely on your eloquence and passion as well as the TRUTH!
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=2…