Comments

1
WTF are Anarchist Materials? Welcome to the Police State. GTFO.
2
Oh, give me a break! Anarchist materials are protected speech and they have no right to search for them. This is a blatant violation of people's First Amendment rights and SPD should be utterly ashamed of its conduct here. They ought to be sued!
3
On May 11, 2012, I filed a public records request with Seattle Police Department for the following:

All schedules, attendance records, printed or electronic training materials (handouts, manuals, videos presented or recorded, etc.) for all training attended by Seattle Police Department staff during the past five years regarding specific political ideologies. This should include but not be limited to those records related to the "training regarding anarchism" Rik Hall of the Seattle Police Department claimed to have attended during his assignment as detective in the sworn declaration in support of subpoena duces tecum submitted to KOMO-TV, KING-TV, KIRO-TV, KCPQ-TV, the Seattle Times, and the Seattle Post Intelligencer that Mr. Hall signed under penalty of perjury on May 7, 2012.


On June 27, they responded to my request (PDR # P2012-1508) with notification that no record of the training Mr. Hall claimed in that subpoena to have received could be found:

The Department has completed a search of the training unit records and has contacted Officer Hall to see if he had any responsive records. The Department did not find any responsive records to your request. Attached please find a copy of Officer Hall's Department training record.
4
Wait, what was the worst thing that happened on May Day? Some broken windows, a couple wrecked cars?

People pretty frequently get shot and killed during no-knock raids like these; how does apprehending vandals justify that risk?
5
you people are blind.......i mean really how fuckin hard to see is it. Its like this becomes a relegious debate about faith and facts. its all been here in front of our faces for years. the goverment is constantly giving us slight peices of socialism in order to divert our attention away long enough for it to become a communist country. ( tax inflation and deflation ) Also, only about %15 of our taxes go into ANYTHING other then back to the IMF and Federal Reserve.Why do you think kennedy died....because he was goin to keep the money as the PEOPLES money.(Assassinated by bodyguard) Ever since the We diverted from Britian and colonized the americas it had strtd. The elight powers of the world knew to keep the money in the familys! period ! Also....on another note, how many ppl do u really think can live on this earth before it dies ? The Goverment got together and did the math....they said about 100 years or so at the rapid population growth 60 years ago......thats right the facts are there to show it ( Tavistock Institute Of Human Relations ) as well as ( Behold A Pale Horse By William M. Cooper {assassinated} ) WE ARE DANGEROUS BECAUSE WE ARE AMERICANS !!!
6
I want to see a copy of the warrant.
7
you people are blind.......i mean really how fuckin hard to see is it. Its like this becomes a relegious debate about faith and facts. its all been here in front of our faces for years. the goverment is constantly giving us slight peices of socialism in order to divert our attention away long enough for it to become a communist country. ( tax inflation and deflation ) Also, only about %15 of our taxes go into ANYTHING other then back to the IMF and Federal Reserve.Why do you think kennedy died....because he was goin to keep the money as the PEOPLES money.(Assassinated by bodyguard) Ever since the We diverted from Britian and colonized the americas it had strtd. The elight powers of the world knew to keep the money in the familys! period ! Also....on another note, how many ppl do u really think can live on this earth before it dies ? The Goverment got together and did the math....they said about 100 years or so at the rapid population growth 60 years ago......thats right the facts are there to show it ( Tavistock Institute Of Human Relations ) as well as ( Behold A Pale Horse By William M. Cooper {assassinated} ) WE ARE DANGEROUS BECAUSE WE ARE AMERICANS !!!
8
Published on SPD's PR blog this morning:


May Day investigation continuing


Written by Detective Mark Jamieson on July 10, 2012


Early this morning, SWAT and detectives served a search warrant to a residence as part of the ongoing May Day investigation. Just before 6:00 am, detectives contacted four individuals inside the residence in the 1100 Block of 29th Avenue South. The search resulted in evidence that will be useful in the investigation. The detectives are continuing to work toward identifying suspects in the May Day riot. There may be more search warrants in the future. The four individuals contacted inside the residence this morning were cooperative with investigators and after being interviewed, were released from the scene. The May Day investigation continues. Anyone with information is asked to contact SPD’s May Day tip line at (206) 233-2666 or MayDay2012@Seattle.gov.

9
@2- Not to mention fourth amendment rights, but those have been pretty effectively dead and buried for some time now. This bothers me way more than the laser scanners in the post above.
10
@6 Me too. I don't trust these anarchist idiots. Not that I really trust the SPD either, but Occupy is a plague on our city with their violence and annoyance.
11
It doesn't mention that detectives "contacted" the individuals by smashing in a door with a battering ram, deploying flash bang grenades, holding everyone at gunpoint and zip tying their wrists. What utter and complete bullshit.
12
@11: Also, that the "scene" that the police released the suspects from was the home where they had been sleeping until the door was busted in.
13
@10 I would call being woken up with an automatic rifle pretty violent and annoying.
14
To obtain a search warrant, an agency has to show #1, what specific evidence they expect to find, and #2 why they have no choice but to invade a private residence to obtain it.

I would really like to see the affidavit investigators filed to obtain this warrant.
15
@11 Now you know how the people downtown felt when your bunch of assholes smashed up the place.

You are the one percent too. And just as douchebaggy.
16
report of the incident from Central District News: http://centraldistrictnews.com/2012/07/1…
17
march @ From Westlake tonight 7pm
https://www.facebook.com/events/47224218…
18
I FOUND THE ANARCHIST MATERIALS!

They were right were Mitt "Frenchie" Romney's TAX RETURNS WERE!
19
"Sleeping residents" = SPD agents provocateurs?
20
also shows they have terrible intelligence as I am pretty sure this isnt an anarchist collective but a marxist one.
21
It sounds like Occupy is getting back, what its been dishing out for several months. Thin skinned, hyper sensitive, emotionally compromised idiots, all of them.
22
there's a difference between searching a home because you suspect there's anarchisms happening in there, vs. searching for evidence that might link suspects to a politically motivated crime.
23
@16- The bike in that picture has gears, brakes and every indication the rider wears a helmet. I was already on the side of the victims of this police aggression, but now even moreso.

@giffy- Oh, poor you, you had to detour a couple blocks. What a fucking nightmare. That's just as bad as having guns pointed at you, your stuff ransacked, and being detained for no fucking reason whatsoever.
24
@21- Occupy smashed into private homes and ransacked them while threatening the legal residents with automatic weapons?
25
@23,24 How do you know it was for no reason? Have you seen the warrant? Occupy lost its credibility with me along time ago. Perhaps the police had good reason to think the fuckers that smashed up downtown were there? If so then good for the SPD. They are nothing but shitty terrorists and should enjoy some time in jail. Being dumb kids is no excuse.

Fuck these idiots.
26
@4 "Wait, what was the worst thing that happened on May Day? Some broken windows, a couple wrecked cars?"

A few officers and a camera man were also assaulted, they were throwing bricks, rocks, bags of piss and paint, in addition to slashing tires and breaking windows.

Also, smashing federal court house windows carries a much more severe charge than smashing windows at American Apparel and these local anarchists are highly suspect in attacks on various ATMs on Capitol Hill.

In the end, nobody really cares. These people have shown they cant get along with their neighbors (as evident via several evictions over the decade), cant get along with other peaceful occupy protesters and sure as hell cant get along with the local police force.
27
@3

Looks like your FOIA request of the SPD has revealed that the training on poloitically motivated crime that Rik Hall attended was conducted by a third party.
28
Shut the fuck up Giffy. Occupy never had any credibility in your eyes, all you ever did was concern-troll about it, even at its inception.

Social protest of any kind has no validity with you, don't act like you ever cared, or knew what you were talking about. You don't.

And yeah, even if you disagree with them, giving the police the benefit of the doubt is dangerous. But you wouldn't understand why because you are so sadly lacking in any kind of real, sociological analysis. Do I think many so-call occupiers took things in a different direction than I would have? Yes. Am I going to cheer the fucking police for invading their homes? Fuck no. Anyone who does is an asshole, pure and simple.
29
What a perfect example of how a couple fuckups can totally give law enforcement blanket permission to put down a legitimate movement. This is why Occupy needs to be vocal about condemning the actions of those retards and distancing themselves from them.
30
Occupy likes violence but only against others. When they are on the receiving end than it's a bad thing. Fuck Occupy. Fuck anarchists.
31
@29, if Occupy can be "put down" by a few people being awakened by one early morning search warrant, with no arrests, it's possible they're not made of stern enough stuff to handle the much more difficult tasks they claim. Just a thought.
32
@28 I support the idea of higher taxes on the rich, well most everybody really, and more regulation on banks. Occupy lost me when it became about camping and stupid anarchist nonsense.

I just want to see the warrant. They have it, they can post it, but I am certainly not going to take word as to what's in it or what happened. And I certainly have no problem with the police treating violent people who terrorized downtown as violent people.

33
@30: Numbnuts: How many people have been injured by occupy protests?
34
I'm not the one that turned Occupy into a useless joke. They did that themselves with stupid process, poorly defined goals, and dumbass tactics.

Turns out leaderless unstructured movements don't work so well. Who the fuck had thought that?
35
Occupy Seattle voted against being a non-violent organization back in December. You reap what you sow.

http://occupyseattle.org/document/ga-min…
"proposal: Commit to using methods of non-violent civil disobedience at all of our demonstrations and define violence as unprovoked physical aggression.
[...]
proposal fails, 16 to 54"
36
@35, Doceb wrote, "Occupy Seattle voted against being a non-violent organization back in December." That is incorrect. I was there. I took the minutes (transcript, really) that you referenced. Part of the proposal was to use non-violent civil disobedience at all OS demonstrations. I voted against it. I didn't think that every demonstration needed to involve civil disobedience.
37
@29- Society gives police permission to put down a movement. If society is so in love with fascism that we accept random police violence as a response to some isolated property crime, then democracy is dead in this country. The cowardly giffys will be content. Until they find themselves on the wrong side of a grumpy cop, but of course none of the other giffys will believe they didn't have it coming.
38
Americans really have no clue about what it actually takes to change anything. So many were fed the "all you have to do is have a sit-in or go to a peaceful protest" lesson in public school and never bothered to look into themselves. The Vietnam War ended because of the violent resistance of the Vietnamese (coupled with the growing militancy of US anti-capitalist and anti-racist movements) not because some hippies smoked a doobie in the park.

The leaders of the civil rights and then black power movements were assassinated because they were dangerous to the racist status quo. Guess they brought it on themselves, too, right?

I think it was dumb for those people to attack that dude in his car on May Day, too, but who the fuck cares if banks and Niketown get their windows smashed out? Maybe the problem is people caring more about windows and "civility" and their own comfort than about how seriously disgusting and horrifying the world is. And most of you Slog commenters are on the TOP of the world. Don't feel guilty, just stop going along for the ride. It's ending sooner than you probably think. Stop collaborating.
39
@36: feel free to read the discussion that took place; it's pretty thoroughly documented in the minutes. This absolutely was a proposal to commit to non-violent tactics, and it failed.

"Maria - Understands that proposal is to make OS a strictly nonviolent movement. This puts way too much authority over her personal actions. Rule will only alienate those in the movement who want to use a diversity of tactics."

"Kathleen - Opposes this proposal. Reminds people of something that happened at beginning of Iraq war. When anti-war movement was at high point, was a proposal from pacifist, liberal, anti-war coalition that unless you accepted vow of nonviolence, could not be in coalition. That was really bad. It was very divisive. Was attempt to shut up radicals, socialists, and anarchists. If people want to be nonviolent, they can be nonviolent. Disagrees with having movement take that position for many of the reasons stated earlier."

"Stray - Opposes this. Thinks we should take steps in opposite direction, toward self-defense against police action. Since beginning of OWS movement, police have been using violence and aggression against so-called peaceful movement. We should adopt strict policy of self-defense against police and recognize Seattle Police Department as a criminal organization."

etc. It wasn't about requiring civil disobedience. It was about requiring non-violence.
40
@37 How about finding myself on the wrong side of an ideologue for whom my safety and property is secondary to whatever dumbass philosophy they hopped up on? Or my neighbors having to spend what money they have cleaning up the graffiti these idiots litter about.

It was not an isolated property crime it was a coordinated action designed to use violence to achieve a political end. While I understand that Occupy has failed miserably at getting support that is no excuse for terrorism.
41
@40- Occupy was 99.999999999999999% non violent action. You are a coward who appears to believe that property is more important than political freedom.
42
From tidesofflame.wordpress.com

PREDATORS: On Rape and the State

This article deals primarily with the state's intervention in cases of sexual violence. Many studies have shown that most acts of sexual violence go unreported and are thus far more common than crime statistics show. It is also worth noting that the justice system has proven itself over and over again to be extremely racist and unreliable; there are doubtless many so-called “sex offenders” who were convicted of crimes they did not commit.

A few miles from the former McNeil Island Corrections Center, a lonely fortress sits surrounded by razor-wire and tall trees. It is often described as a mixture between a college dormitory and a prison. Compared to its defunct neighbor, this facility's security features have a more low-key quality. There are lounges with comfortable couches in pleasant colors, and the lighting is designed to beat back the winter grays and blues. It's called the Special Commitment Center (SCC), home to 282 legally-defined “sexually violent predators”.

All of those committed to the SCC have already served the prison sentences that were supposed to re-balance the scales of justice. But upon evaluation for release, an End of Sentence Review Committee determined that these prisoners presented a very high risk of re-offense due to serious pathological problems. They were thus referred for possible “civil commitment” to the SCC.

In a civil commitment process, a court or jury must find beyond a reasonable doubt that the individual meets the legal definition of a sexually violent predator. If so, the individual is committed to the custody of DSHS for placement in the SCC, “a total confinement facility for 'control, care, and treatment.'”(1)

From 1994 until 2007, the SCC was operating under federal injunction due to allegations from inmates that the facility was not really fulfilling its purported mission. Today, a full 40% of SCC inmates refuse treatment and are expected to remain at the facility for as long as it exists. Only seven inmates have been unconditionally released from the facility after fulfilling all treatment and release requirements. Others have been released by courts for various reasons including medical conditions which severely limit their ability to become sexually violent.

As stated above, the Special Commitment Center has very limited capacity. With over one thousand sex crimes reported and over 800 convicted sex offenders released every year in Washington, the state must have other strategies to deal with sexual violence, right? Sure, it does.(2) But because prison is for punishment and not rehabilitation, the treatment options available to incarcerated sex offenders are extremely limited and often fail completely.

There are currently two programs in WA state prisons—the 200-bed Twin Rivers Sex Offender Treatment Program at Monroe Correctional Complex and a similar program at the Washington Corrections Center for Women in Gig Harbor. Both programs are strictly voluntary and most participants only enter treatment within the last 18 months of their sentences due to long waiting lists. And then, even when admitted, they face the constant risk of ejection if they engage in “sexual behavior” or are otherwise unruly or disobedient. As a result, many of those convicted of sex crimes leave prison without having received any treatment whatsoever. After having made it through a gray, stainless steel hell, they re-enter the world, arguably even more unstable and potentially dangerous.

That said, it doesn't really seem to make much of a difference whether sex offenders receive treatment from Washington state prison programs or not. According to a report released in June of 2006 by the Washington State Institute for Public Policy, sex offenders who participated in the Twin Rivers program were actually re-incarcerated for sexually violent felonies at a higher rate that those who volunteered for but were not admitted to the program.(3) In other words, the program does not work. But really, it's not a big surprise that a sadistic institution is completely incapable of healing sadistic people.

Prison is a method of social control that serves to warehouse undesirable and unpredictable populations. This is its primary function as part of the United States' democratic capitalist system. Prisons are designed to break the spirit and dull the mind, and imprisonment threatens the defiant, the restless, and all of those who long for freedom and an end to slavery. That rapists, child molesters, and psycho killers sometimes get caught and locked-up is merely a side effect of a system that is primarily structured to protect the interests of the rich at the expense of the exploited.

The existence of prisons and police, as well as increased funding for their new toys and technologies, are always justified by the need for “community safety”. But the fact is that prisons and police only deal with sexual violence after it has already happened. Meanwhile, this sociopathic culture creates new “sexually violent predators” every day.

In the 1970's, second-wave feminists coined the term “rape culture” to describe American society. The term, despite the vast limitations of second-wave feminism, is still applicable today, when rape and other sexual violence remain commonplace and when attitudes, norms, practices, and media continue to condone, normalize, and excuse sexualized violence. One reason so little has changed is that anti-sexual/domestic violence advocates have for so long forged dependent relationships with law enforcement and courts, turning to them for protection. Some organizations have broken from this trend and now recognize that police and prison guards, as perpetrators of coercive violence and racism, are fundamentally unfit to ensure “community safety”.(4) Anarchists, meanwhile, have always known that the state is the biggest, most dangerous predator on the block.

The fact that rape and other acts of sexual violence continue to happen in great numbers every day is proof that the state and its systems of crime and punishment are entirely incapable of stopping sexual violence. In fact, sadism and sexual violence are part and parcel of prison culture. Beyond outright instances of guards raping prisoners or looking the other way when prisoners rape other prisoners, the threat of sexual violence comes in both blatant and insidious forms. Earlier this summer, a group of young people arrested at a party were told by sneering police officers that they would be raped in jail.(5) One can only assume that this is a common, unofficially accepted tactic used by police to intimidate their captives. On the subtle side, consider the Prison Rape Elimination Act videos played on repeat in the holding cells at many jails across the country. It would be easy for jail officials to insist that this is a legitimate attempt to stop prison rape, but ask anyone who has spent time in these jails just how reassured those videos made them feel.

Sick, Sad World

This is a sick, sad world that churns out sick, sad people. There can be no end to sexual violence as long as sadists continue to run the show. McNeil Island may well be teeming with very dangerous men and women, but many of them get to ride the ferry home every day at the end of their shifts.

When everything, including our bodies and minds, become objects to be bought and sold in the market of everyday life, it becomes very easy for some to use and abuse others. Some wear uniforms and get paid to do it. Others use their positions of trust and authority to wield power over their victims. Broken relationships and the rising sexualization of young children, as just two examples, contribute to a culture within which sexual violence is encouraged, fought, and feared all at once.

It is in this climate that state and local budgets, even for jails and prisons, are drying up. Maple Lane School, a juvenile detention facility in Centralia, WA, and McNeil Island Corrections Center have already closed. There was a proposal earlier this year to move the Special Commitment Center to the site of the former Maple Lane School due to budget concerns. The costs to DSHS of operating an island prison, with its ferries and barges, are certainly much higher than those of a regular land-locked prison. The DSHS budget is already extremely tight, with more and more cuts coming every year, it's easy to see what sort of “tough choices” lie ahead. Which will it be, the Food Assistance Program or the Special Commitment Center? Hunger or rape?

The danger of continuing to rely on prisons, courts, and police to keep us safe should by now be blatantly clear. The state that every day hurts, murders, and imprisons our friends, neighbors, and loved ones is no humble guardian. Laws and standardized sentences only serve to smooth over the complexity of each instance of sexual violence. Safety comes from people forming relationships of reciprocal trust and protection against all aggressors—those with badges as well as those without. It is in these types of beautiful, painfully rare communities—real communities—that sexual violence is handled best: with care, compassion, and, when deemed necessary, swift and sweet revenge.

1.According to DSHS itself.
2.There are also post-release programs (like sex offender registration and halfway houses) and treatment-based alternatives to incarceration.
3.“Sex Offender Sentencing in Washington State: Does the Prison Treatment Program Reduce Recidivism?” - http://www.wsipp.wa.gov/rptfiles/06-06-1…
4.INCITE! Women of Color Against Violence is one good example.
5.See “Police Vs. Party,” Tides of Flame #3.
43
@41 Damaging property is not political freedom. If it turns out these people had nothing to do with the May Day riot and the police were just harassing them then that is fucked up, but I doubt that is the case.

They could, you know, just post the warrant and inventory and help clear this up a bit?
44
@42 Dress it up with all the rhetoric you want, but what you describe is still just mob rule. And while the State certainly gets things wrong, mobs and 'communities' get them wrong a hell of a lot more. It usually wasn't the government lynching people, but it took the government to stop it.

45
VOTE SAWANT CAMPAIGN & SOCIALIST ALTERNATIVE CONDEMN POLICE REPRESSION OF SEATTLE ACTIVISTS
http://votesawant.org/?q=node/12

Around 6:00 A.M. on Tuesday, July 10th, a house where local activists from Occupy Seattle and the Red Spark group live was raided by a Seattle Police Department SWAT team. According to reports, police broke through the front door armed with automatic weaponry and used “flashbang” grenades. The police have said they were searching for “Anarchist materials” and clothing allegedly connected to the Seattle May 1st demonstrations. No arrests were made; only clothing was taken from the apartment. (http://kasamaproject.org/2012/07/10/swat…)

This raid is clearly an act of political repression of left-wing activists and an attempt to intimidate activists who are fighting against the richest 1% and big business. There is absolutely nothing illegal about possessing anarchist or other radical literature. Socialist Alternative and the Vote Sawant campaign stand in solidarity with those affected by today’s raid, and strongly condemn the actions of the Seattle Police Department. We urge all activists, students, unions, and working people generally, to join the solidarity march today (Tuesday, July 10) at 7pm, beginning at Westlake Park.

This is not an isolated incident. This act of state repression continues a long tradition of police brutality and political repression by the SPD and police forces across the country. The Occupy Wall Street movement suffered police violence where demonstrations faced attacks, pepper spray, brutality, mass arrests, and the demolition of protest encampments. Here in Seattle in recent years we have seen an out-of-control police department carrying out an almost unending number of acts of police brutality, including killings, which have gone so far that even the Federal Department of Justice has been forced to investigate and try to reign in the SPD.

It is crucial that Occupy, unions, and left-wing activists generally respond to this provocation by mobilizing for public protests to shine a spotlight on the undemocratic actions of the SPD and rally to defend our democratic rights. If the SPD is allowed to get away with this type of undemocratic repression of political activity, it will be used in the future against other movements challenging the political and corporate establishment, including the labor movement and workers’ struggles.

While the SPD and Mayor McGinn carried out this raid with the intention of intimidating activists, in reality, it will only serve to expose the true nature of the police in our so-called democracy as tools of the richest 1% who use undemocratic and violent measures to protect the interests of big business and their system of capitalism.

Democratic Mayor of Seattle Mike McGinn is ultimately responsible for the activities of the SPD. This political repression highlights the need to break with the Democratic Party and begin building a left-wing, working-class political alternative. To this end, Kshama Sawant, a member of Socialist Alternative and Occupy Seattle activist, is running as an independent candidate for the 99% in the 43rd District of Seattle (position 1). The Sawant campaign and Socialist Alternative call for the creation of an elected civilian review board with full powers over the police. We also demand investment in rehabilitation, job-training, and living-wage jobs, not prisons or detention centers, and abolition of the death penalty (which is still on the books in Washington state) as elementary first steps to begin to fight the police brutality and institutional racism of the criminal justice system.

The SPD has stated that this raid was connected to investigating incidents which took place around the May 1 protests in Seattle. It is true that some property destruction was carried out by a few people around the May 1 protest. Socialist Alternative and the Vote Sawant campaign did not support such acts and view them as counter-productive to building mass movements of the working class that can challenge capitalism. However, police repression will in no way stop such acts from occurring and will actually make them more likely. In reality, today’s events highlight how the real criminality and violence in our society stem from the police and the corporate aristocracy that rules this country.
We need to stand in solidarity with our brothers and sisters who suffered this raid and build massive movements of working people to defend our democratic rights and fight for our interests. We urge as many people as possible will attend the protest tonight at 7 pm beginning at Westlake park, Tuesday, July 10.

www.SocialistAlternative.org
www.VoteSawant.org
46
@36

If I'm reading this right, you're saying that the proposal the General Assembly rejected was not a resolution to make Occupy a non-violent movement, but rather a affirmation that all Actions would employ exclusively non-violent tactics.

Do you not understand why people might get a little fed up with that distinction?
47
So just because I was down there one night and maybe an officer caught my face and thought I later dressed myself in black and then not in black and got back to my home and now they have a right to take papers they claim to be "anarchist materials"? This is worse than Nazi fucking Germany someone please save us from the worst government in the universe.
48
@46: Robotslave: You almost have it. The rejected proposal was not, as many have misinterpreted, and as I wish someone had proposed, that we disavow causing physical harm to people as a viable tactic. It was, among a couple other details, a dictum that every OS demonstration would employ non-violent civil disobedience. It sparked endless discussion of whether violence, defined in a multitude of ways, is or will be a viable tactic. But the vote was definitely not, as many uninformed people would have you believe, "Should we A) hurt people, or B) not hurt people?"

The short version of what eventually fell out of it was: Some people initially involved in OS actions believed that "nonviolence" means something more than the absence of violence; that it's some hippie-dippie kumbaya life philosophy advocated by milquetoast liberals who have been manipulated into believing that real change will come in this nation without a strong fight from those who mostly run things now, and without even more of a fight from the police who are employed to protect those in power. Some people were unwilling to state, even disingenuously, that if a cop shoved them with a big metal frame, they would refrain from standing their ground by pushing back with equal force. Some people were unwilling to state, even disingenuously, that they would refrain from intervening if a cop was beating the bloody pulp out of their friend.

It was a frustrating experience. It marked the end of my daily involvement. It was a PR disaster. And it was way more complicated, and way less about "are we gonna be violent or not," than the people who want to maintain the status quo and thus want to see any uprising or awakening quashed would have you believe.
49
@48

So I take that as a no, you don't see why anyone would get fed up with the distinction. Or perhaps you're now attributing that distinction to "some people initially involved in OS actions?" It's kind of hard to read in between your accusations of status-quo-mongering leveled at anyone and everyone outside the OccuBubble.
50
@49: I don't understand the idea of being fed up with a distinction.
51
@48 and this kind of bullshit is why Occupy failed. Seriously, fuck all that. This is really simple. Breaking peoples things and assaulting them is bad. This isn't some conspiracy to paint the movement in a negative light, this is stupid ass navel gazing nonsense, when all is needed is a clear message that violence is bad and hurting people or their things is wrong.

Leave the endless nuance out of it.
52
@51

There's really not a lot of nuance in it, Phil's just running a smokescreen.

A group or movement that reserves the right to use something other than nonviolent tactics can't be called nonviolent.

There were sufficiently many people at the GA in question who did want to reserve that right that a measure which would have mandated nonviolent tactics was voted down.

In other words, the GA voted against a measure which would have made* Occupy a nonviolent movement.

 

* Well, in word, at least. No Occupy GA measure can be "binding" in the sense of "enforced by the people who enacted it," because that would an unacceptable infringement of personal autonomy. This is how, e.g., the occupations came to be officially zero-drugs events at which there was quite a lot of more or less open and mostly harmless drug use.
53
@52: Unless we have mutual agreement on the meaning of the word "nonviolence" there's no sense in using it in this discussion. To many, it means something more than the absence of violence.
54
@53 Hence why the whole leaderless GA system is rather stupid and leads to silliness like this.
55
@53

I'm afraid this is not a case where the words "violence" and "nonviolence" mean whatever anyone wants them to mean.

You don't get to call a movement "nonviolent" unless there is near-universal agreement — especially outside the movement — that the movement has renounced violence.

You might call this a "lowest common denominator" standard, if you're the sort of person who wants to do political property destruction and claim it's nonthreatening, thus preserving your nonviolent self-image.

Or you might call it a higher standard. Or an egalitarian standard.

Whatever you choose to call it, it's the external standard* that has to be met, not the group or movement's internal standard.

It's all well and good to debate the philosophy and semiotics and definitions of violence in your book club, but I'm afraid you don't get to unilaterally un-define the word "nonviolence" in a debate with the general public.

 

* no, not an external institutional standard. The public, community standard.
56
Have you ever walked into a room where's there's only a two yr old and a smashed vase and the little tyke says, "Not me!"?

We'll that's Occupy. 

Someone smashes a window and attacks journalists?  Occupy blames the Anarchists, the anarchists blame the agent provocateur, the GA blames no one because they can't make a fucking decision, the Black Bloc doesn't blame anyone because 'it's a tactic not a group', the communists are just fucking parasitical idiots latching on to anything that moves and would love to take responsibility but no one would believe them.

And the public? The 99%? They ignore you because when a 2 yr old says "not me", there is no plausible deniability.  

Enjoy your hundred-man protests, they're really gonna shake the world!

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