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Redder.....really?
Seems like a roundabout way to have a conversation.
Here in the adult world, it turns out divorce is an unpleasant reality for a lot of people and they will sabotage a relationship so that the other person is forced to make the hard choice. Sometimes they write letters to advice columnists hoping that the advice will spare them from making the hard decision. Same goes for a lot of couples counselors. People just want permission.
I think this Lauren person is selling herself short when she says she was being "a little bit" of an ass.
Lauren! You're a troll! That is precisely the definition of trolling!
Knock that shit off!
Fuck her feelings. I'm truly sorry someone was such a cruel and vicious bastard as to assault her. That's a terrible thing no One should have to go through, and far too many do. But they don't have the right to fuck over the people that love them.
That's the only interpretation that makes sense to me, because her explanation in the second e-mail makes no sense at all. If she had known you didn't say that, why would she have phrased her question on the card the way she did, knowing that you could not possibly speak to why you'd done something you never did?
"Getting you to open this" is a silly excuse, and it doesn't mesh with all her outrage there still about you not remembering saying what she now claims she always knew you didn't say. I bet she didn't realize until she received your reply, looked at the column again, and went, "Oh, shit!" Then she was embarrassed and made up a flimsy and inconsistent excuse.
Hopefully, Lauren will grow up too, and stop being so fucking judgemental.
I personally don't think that's what you meant, but it did sound like a dogwhistle. (I hope in this crowd I don't need to spell out why a poly woman who was raped by an intimate partner is less likely to press charges.)
Dan was right then and remains right. There's nothing about being a rape victim that means we can't be complete shits sometimes. If a woman couldn't handle having sex with men at all after her assault, that would be something to work out with her husband in therapy and his needs and his hurt would have to be taken into account as well. If she has a boyfriend that she's happily banging while leaving her poor husband deprived and blaming it all on her victimhood, she is being a complete shit.
I have PTSD. It's miserable for me, but can also lead to me hurting the people around me as I shut down and withdraw. This does not give me a right to be an asshole or string people along. Either the relationship matters and you work on it together, or it doesn't and you free the other person to save them further pain.
Methinks we have conspiracy.
Im not sure who edits this paper or checks the emails when you are away dan but a man shot himself in the head and killed himself in broad daylight in front of a crowd of people in Fremont on a packed afternoon.
Its been said elsewhere but 'is it not news because they didn't take anyone with them?' Its terrible. I go to the Slog for my breaking news or NWCN and there has to be more to this story that you as journalists owe your readers to find out.
if you all have the beat of the city than whats up? I want the news and not just you letting us know that some bratty reader sent you a trollish email.
And? That it hurts her to possibly end her marriage DOES NOT MEAN that she does not wish to end her marriage. So, from what you've said here, you agree with Dan.
and you should feel bad.
Being sexually assaulted does not make you a good person. It does not make all your actions thenceforth above criticism because: raped! That right there is some piece of shit reasoning. And it casts the victim of assault into some sort of perpetual victim status that must overwhelm all other areas of her life, where her actions will not be judged as we do other grown-up's actions. This is not a humanizing way to treat those who have been assaulted.
PS: I usually figure everyone over 18 and out of their parent's house should be treated as a consenting adult able to take responsibility for their actions. You got the 'you young young thing' treatment by personifying the entitled little navel gazer who doesn't see anything wrong with ignoring facts that get in the way of her right to feel all aggrieved.
If you have to alter your oppressor's quotes to feel properly oppressed, you're doing it wrong.
"I go to the Slog for my breaking news"
"Doctor, it hurts when I do this!"
I'm sorry to hear this. Have you tried EMDR? (Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprogramming) for help with your PTSD?
I know it can sound wacky. But it has done wonders for a lot of people who've been through trauma.
Why would a sexual assault by someone other than her husband leave her unable to stand his touch, but totally fine with her boyfriend's? I can understand her being repulsed by all sexual touch after an assault--her husband's as well as her boyfriend's. And I could understand her aversion to her husband if he was the one to assault her. But as written, I did a lot of head-scratching.
Not an idle question, by the way: I have a former coworker who is in a position to credibly press a charge of rape against her boss, and I've made it clear that I would be happy to support any decision she made about doing that. Am I doing something wrong by telling her that?
I thought the last sentence of your original advice was over-the-top, actually: "If you're not willing to do those things, PTSD, then stop emotionally assaulting your husband and put both your marriage and him out of their misery."
To me, the way you used "emotionally assaulting" looks like you're equating what the LW is doing to her husband with the sexual assault that she suffered. I don't think the two actions are comparable, and I think that is a pretty shitty thing to say to someone who just suffered a sexual assault. While being a victim of an assault doesn't entitle anyone to hurt others, I think that when someone is still reeling from something like that, a little gentleness is in order.
I do agree with urging her to see a counselor.
Your situation is a really tough thing, because what you have is a small chance of making society better v. near certainty of re-victimizing the victim. I say small chance because non-stranger rape is very hard to prosecute (statutory less so because all they have to prove is sex happened - guessing that's why the registries are full of those). Bringing an accusation will start a humiliating and invasive investigation, and if he's "somebody" which "boss" implies, he's going to get a lot of support from people who want to believe she's crazy/lying/gold-digging, etc. If it gets to the point of a defense atty getting ahold of her, well, I just couldn't try to persuade someone to go through that given the very small chance of it doing some good.
If she *wants* to do it, then great, but I could never blame anyone for just wanting the violation to stop. Yes, this situation worsens a societal problem, because it means that acquaintance rape continues to be something that rapists are likely to get away with, but that is not HER fault. That is the fault of the criminal justice system and a culture that scrutinizes victims like criminals. Making him stop didn't become her job because he raped her, know what I mean?
Here's a good place to start: http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/200…
I hate when people do something horrible, and then they're like, "I'm SORRY, OK?!?" as if that makes it better. No. That's not how the world works. You can't just act like an asshole, "apologize," act like an asshole, "apologize", etc. and everyone forgives you, wipes the slate clean, and thinks you're wonderful. I don't care that Lauren apologized. What she did to Dan was colossally horrible.
I hope Lauren learns a lesson, here: be absolutely rock solid in your proof of foul doings before accusing anyone of anything, ever. ESPECIALLY if that accusation is public. Not very nice to have egg in the face.
I remember that column. I remember thinking that woman sounded like one of the most deplorable people ever to write in. And I remember thinking Dan's analysis was exactly write.
In retrospect...nothing has changed. Was a despicable person. And now another.
It reminded me of something Dan had said once that so enraged me. I tried to write him but couldn't finish. When I calmed down I was surprised by the intensity of my response. But Dan had touched on a subject that had effected me when I was young. And suddenly this hero of mine that had taught me so much and given me so much courage, had become the bully who kept me ashamed of myself for so many years.
Of course he wasn't trying to be a bully. And if I had sent that letter I'm sure he would have defended what he'd said, and yet still show compassion for what I had gone through like he has for Lauren
You told a lie. That's all this issue will ever be about from now now - your lie.
Read "The Children's Hour" sometime. It's about a lie that a young girl told. You just did the same thing.
Cunt.
EMDR has been thoroughly debunked. Any benefit is purely placebo.
1. We as humans are uniquely endowed with both empathy and imagination. This is why we can imagine what it is like even though it has never happened to us.
2. This whole "you don't know what it's like" philosophy is nothing but an accessory to unhealthy self-indulgent victimhood by which those who have been wrongfully harmed in some way try to selfishly convert it into a lifetime of sympathy and a general excuse for failing to get on with their lives and constructively dealing with their trauma.
(ditto "prick" and "dick")
asshole is still open for debate
I disagree with those of you who think PTSD is playing the victim. She wrote into Dan asking for advice, not asking for validation. She brought up the possibility of therapy before he did. She made the majority of the letter about her husband's suffering, not about her own suffering. She said "watching him suffer like this is unbearable." That is not the sort of thing a self pitying idiot would say.
PTSD seems like a nice enough person, and nothing like the manipulative bitch Dan assumed she was. Even if he took out the shit line, his harsh tone would still imply that he thinks she is scum. "Do you love your husband? Is your marriage a priority? Then start acting like it" This goes beyond simply being blunt. He is accusing her of lying about loving her husband. That is not as bad as accusing her of lying about being raped, but it's still a pretty fucking terrible thing to accuse somebody of. Especially somebody asking for advice about how to make their husband happy.
I love thoughtful engaged debate and you both eventually got there - with substantial prodding from Dan.
I think it would be fair to say that PTSD was looking for advice while making it very, very clear that she really didn't want to change: she was already aware of what she needed to do (therapy, stop shitting on her husband) but hadn't done that because banging the boyfriend was so wonderful. In other words, she already knew what she had to do, and hadn't done it, and, in all likelihood, wasn't going to do it. Dan didn't call her out for lying or being manipulative: he called her out for her selfish asshole conduct. Just because there's a reason for bad conduct doesn't necessarily provide an excuse for bad conduct, especially where the person in question is [as PTSD so clearly was] intellectually and emotionally aware of the damage she was causing and refusing to do anything about it.
This is one of those letters which are of exceptional interest in the "how did THAT turn out?" category. I hope that PTSD writes in.
When I read the column it bothered me too, and still bothers me. I guess in that sense I understand what Lauren was feeling. Dealing with abuse or rape can be a total mind fuck. I've been there before. In dealing with the aftermath of it, I did and said things I wasn't proud of and that just plain didn't make any sense. Those things were technically my fault, but when I think back on that time, I realized that I'm not really a bad person, I was just so confused and hurt that I couldn't make tops or tails of anything anymore. Getting therapy is important, but it isn't always clear to everyone that it is the obvious choice; many people in our culture are still anti-therapy, or you might get a therapist that sucks (I did, until I got a different one).
Basically, even if what Dan said was true, I don't think it was helpful. Its like great - congrats - you identified the truth. But that doesn't make someone's life better. The response could have said all the same things and yet been extremely more sympathetic. And I think a professional advice columnist would have recognized that.
Anyone who has been the victim of rape or abuse knows that a significant number of people - people you thought you could trust - will not be kind to your in the aftermath. Victim blaming is so common, there must be some sort of psychological mechanism at work, I don't know. But the very last thing that women needed, was another person yelling at her. Absolutely. The very last thing.
In my own life I noticed that when I bring up something bad from my past, people often tell me it is not an excuse. Many don't seem to distinguish between an excuse and an explanation. This attitude is annoying for people who have no intention of making excuses, people who only want to verbally express their struggles.
Dan used PTSD's love for her husband as a weapon to make her feel guilty about her behavior, intentionally trying to shame her into thinking she is not loving enough. I guess this guilt worship is the sort of behavior you learn growing up Catholic. Normally, I would not complain about this sort of attack, because over the top anger is part of what makes the column so entertaining... but PTSD is a victim. Victimhood is not an excuse for bad behavior, but I think it makes sense to avoid throwing more suffering on top of the truckload of suffering PTSD already experienced.
I think Dan Savage and his readers have biases just like everybody else. I think one of those biases is, the tendency to assume that anybody withholding sex is at fault. This assumption is a reaction against society's assumption that all lack of sex is the fault of the party who wants sex (usually the man).
What the just world hypothesis means is, people assume the world is just, and things that happen deserve to have happened. If somebody is rich and successful, people give them the benefit of the doubt, even if they are an enormous cock. "Well, they must be doing something right!" If somebody is downtrodden and attacked, people assume it is their own fault for being in this situation.
When the just world hypothesis is questioned, it makes many people feel insecure. They feel like maybe they do not have as much control over their lives as they previously assumed. Maybe life is random and suffering cannot be avoided. They react to this fear by constructing a delusion of control... for example, pretending an assaulted woman had control over whether she was assaulted or not.
I think the cure of this very common and very flawed way of thinking is a more scientific mindset. People need to accept that they do not always know why bad things happen, and learn to distrust their ingrained desire to blame people.
Raped and don't want to have sex with your husband? I can understand why.
When I was raped, I really couldn't deal with my EX-boyfriends guilt trips, his questioning whether it was rape, why didn't I fight back harder, his tears, his sadness, his angry accusations, his anger and crying apologies and having to process his feelings about my rape and how he couldn't stop thinking about me "being with someone else", and blah de fucking blah de blah.
I didn't have time for his feelings, I had my own to deal with. Feelings of not being a human anymore, just some dumb raped woman. Feeling like I had no legal recourse to being raped, like I just found out I have a "free rape" sign stuck to me at all times. All the guilt for my rapeyness causing my *nice* boyfriend so much pain.
And-he's a nice guy, my ex, not a monster, just typical. His property (me) got raped, it's an insult to him and an outrage against him. Want to humiliate a man and show he is nothing? Rape his woman. Old-time tactic, biblical even. Not that he would ever admit this is how he felt, but it was how he acted and I think this is a very typical, common reaction.
If I had been in a poly relationship at the time, like the letter writer and had a husband and a boyfriend, I would have been fucking my boyfriend, not my husband. It's easier to fuck friends than husbands after your raped, it just is. A friend is there for you and doesn't have same sense of ownership as a husband does. Maybe that's fucked up, but rape is real fucked up.
Also, a lot of people respond to rape in self-destructive ways, and one common form of such self-punishment is to destroy your relationships with those important to you. This isn't always done consciously. When this happens, people who genuinely want to help someone recover will call them out on it. Otherwise, pretending that this person can do no wrong because they're a rape victim is a great way to ensure that their suffering extends into even more areas of life. Anyone willing to risk this so that they can LOOK like a more sympathetic person is worthless to a rape survivor.
Sympathy is extremely important to recovery, but that doesn't make it the only important factor; not by a longshot.
I referred to my ex as a nice guy as he is. He doesn't talk shit about women, works well with women, his exes (including me) like him, he's a rare guy who can be friends with a woman. My point was even nice guys can handle their partner's rape very badly.
But rape fucks peoples heads up, not just the heads of the rapee, but also heads of their partners, friends and families. The emotional aftermath isn't logical or reasonable. People aren't reasonable or rational, we're emotional. His behavior wasn't great, it was selfish, irrational and absolutely typical.
What wasn't typical is that after we broke up, he owned up to what a shit he'd been, how wrong he was and apologized. For that, I still count him as a friend and a nice guy, a nice guy who really fucked up.
I like with your post about victim blaming being a result of a Just World Hypothesis. I don't think the world is just, but I do think there is ample evidence that is is misogynist.
69: You're projecting. Your ex sounds like a giant asshole, but this isn't somehow evidence that the LW's husband is also a giant asshole and her boyfriend isn't. Husbands aren't bigger assholes than boyfriends as a rule; assholes simply vary on a case-by-case basis. Husbands are nothing more than permanent(ish) boyfriends, after all.
No, we don't know how the letter writer's husband is acting, but my experience wasn't unusual and I can understand why someone would seek as less intimate, less emotionally loaded partner for sex after a rape.
And just like PTSD, she really needs to get her ass into therapy so that she can a) recover from her assault and b) stop going crazy at every turn.
True, it is a conversation. Personally, I think that it's entirely possible for someone to be traumatized and need counseling, and still get called on what amounts to abusive, bullshit behavior, even if that behavior is in response to the trauma. I don't think Dan needed to "pull that punch."
distorted the contents of the original letter.
If she had said ... "the rape victim who had gone
cold on her husband but was still running hot with
a lover" that would have been an accurate representation.
I can see how rape victim might need to take her anger out on a male, and how she would want to keep a positive expression of her sexuality also. It's unlikely that she could reverse the roles (... torture the lover by withholding sex & keep the connection with the husband ...) because the lover,
not caring as much, would probably just bolt. The fact that her connection with the lover increases the torture for her husband is probably a plus for the side of her that needs this.
Having been victimized, she becomes a victimizer -
of one who really cares because he is the only one
who will hang around for it.
This is not OK.
It's harmful to her and to all those around her.
Dan was too soft on her if anything.
I hope she got some therapy that worked.
If not, I'm sure she got a divorce.
I don't read it that way. I read it as, "You claim to love your husband but your actions are violently at odds with that claim. Time to bring your actions in alignment with your sentiments," does not mean you are lying about feeling those sentiments. "Then start acting like it" is not the same as "Then stop lying about it." It means exactly what it says.
Dan really distinguished himself from a professional therapist in this column. A professional would understand that the road to helping this woman did not involve ever talking to her like that. Also, a professional probably had to go back in and undo what he did (along with what the rapist and a lot of victim blamers also did). Because Dan has such a powerful, popular voice, and minions to agree with him, he had more power to hurt this person, which he did. He wasn't prepared or educated enough to answer this letter, and he should have sat this round out.
Sounds like you were broken well before your assault.
Danny;
One of your most Ardent FanBoys
(Bob. In Baltimore....)
claims to have found a secret recording of you from 2006
in which you endorse legalizing Polygamy.
He has even posted a transcript
(on Slog, for crying out loud.
Punked on your on blog!
damn- the internets are a jungle....)
"I have the same reaction to legalizing marriage for gays as I do for polygamists. What’s the big deal? Legalize it. It’s kind of like arguing against giving women the vote because then women will want to enter the work force. (Horrors!)"-Dan Savage
Please clarify.....
(we call this to your attention because we are sure you want to get out in front of this budding scandal early...)
It's a shame that Lauren was rewarded for her trollery. She sucks.
Lauren seems like the type of person who; on one hand, severely degrades the spirit of justice and integrity but; on the other hand, could be easily cured with a swift punch in the face and then be told to repent their sins and live cleanly from here forward.
He has magical spells and voodoos for what whatever situation you find yourself,could be for HIV, Cancer,law suit.. etc I am a living testimony to this and its so obvious that I can't keep my mouth shot, I was stunned and found this unbelievable, Now I have my husband back and can handle all my financial crisis.. I really hope he doesn't mind me advertising his contact on the internet but I'm sure any help/ extra work will benefit him. contact him at Magibarabara@gmail.com and http://magibara.gnbo.com.ng
Hope this helps everyone that is in a desperate situation as I once was.