They're the people who lobbied to have "under God" added to the pledge. I have no time for them.

Fucking horseshit, along the Archidiocese of NY's attempt to kick our President out of a charity dinner.

Does "dab" mean "dba"? Also, shouldn't it be the Catholic Church dba the Knights of Columbus?

THIS is what real immorality is - and not what some people do with other people sexually or, as is the most modern application, maritally.

But a return tip to Mark: Don't give up on ALL churches simply because so many are run by douches. You can find good people AND worthy doctrines at Unitarian, ELCA and Metropolitan Community churches (as well as a number of others).

@4 Why does Mark need any churches? I get so tired of people saying "but my church is okay." Look, some of us are at peace enough with life and we don't need a bunch of myths to make us feel better.

Life would be so much better without ANY churches.

The people who say "my church is okay" are nothing more than Mafia wives who look the other way.

This makes me sad on behalf of my Catholic family members. Good people who believe in caring for the least among us... believers who are fucked over by their church's administrators every damn time. Believers driven away from their church because of this horseshit.

All that money spent trying to force others to live the Catholic lifestyle rather than actually living Catholic lifestyle.

The Catholic church and most of the other churches would argue that keeping marriage heterosexual is as important as providing a wheelchair, coat, and food to a cold, hungry, crippled child. And you can't tell them any different because they truly believe they have the moral authority to say so.

JC's whole point has been so deviated in the last 2000 years that it just ain't real Christianity anymore. It's whatever those entitled, self-serving assholes say it is whether you agree with it or not and whether it's compatible with JC or not. People have got to stop giving them the money and power they need to carry on.

It's not about doing the right thing anymore. It's about keeping me in my comfort zone and scaring people who threaten it with eternal damnation. Fuck 'em, all.

@6 - Don't ask me about my church, Cato!

@5 I actually find that one of the more profound questions, something that nearly everyone ignores. What, specifically, is the appeal? Atheists are challenged to approach it, because it has to do w/ emotions, something outside of logic & reason. Christians have a difficult time discussing it, as their religion keeps them emotionally stunted. Yet, there is something there.

I don't have an answer, I just think it's an important question, beyond most of what is tossed about on the internet.

@11 What, specifically, is the appeal?

Having all the answers to every possible question already answered in an easy to remember phrase: "Because Jesus said so!"

Why do babies die? Why is that person a bad guy? Why is it OK to kill people who are different than me?
"Because Jesus said so!"

You can have all the answers and not even have to think! If it sounds too good to be true, all you have to do is change the definition of truth.

Wow. So much railing here against what you imagine ALL churches to be. Makes me think of how some people rail against gay people because of what they imagine us to be.

Have some churches and some religious traditions done IMMENSE harm against GLBT people? Without a doubt.

Are there other churches and religious traditions that work to make the lives of GLBT people better? Without a doubt.

Let's focus our efforts against those churches and traditions that are in the first camp, and celebrate those that are in the second.

@12- as an athiest for thirty years but raised episcopal I can't imagine more than half actually believed in the bullshit preached. It's a social event, there is a sense of community, singing is nice.Normal rules don't apply, people are nice to others they would normally avoid. I miss it sometimes, like I miss being ten and waking up Christmas morning. Best left in the hazy memory of nostalgia

@13:

How about not celebrating anything which incorporates a philosophy stating things will be better after you die? We need to start making life on Earth easier - and if not easier, then less hard - for everyone here and now without the promise of collecting some reward at the end of it.

16, I donate a sizable amount to charity out of every pay check. How much do you give every payday?

@ 5,

I am not of the opinion that Mark needs a church. But, it has been my experience that many Christians presume that someone who isn't a part of a church is actually a person looking for a church. The underlying presumption is that they have either been injured/ insulted/ disappointed, et. cetera, by a church and therefore are longing to return to one. The idea that someone could out grow the church does not normally occur to them. The un-churched are either wounded, led astray, or un-exposed to the "truth" lambs, thus needing to be saved to most (particularly evangelizing!) Christians. The very idea that someone could come to a critically thought out conclusion against participation in a church, doctrine, or religious affiliation does not occur to many.

Just my $0.02.

@16 - If I had 15.8 million, you can bet I'd be donatating more than The Knights of Columbus.

And for that matter, how many wheelchairs have YOU dontated?

Douche.

I'm an atheist and I've been a member of one Unitarian Universalist Church or another all of my life (56 yrs). Yes, I was born into the UU church, but at the age of 18 I chose to join. As a child I had learned in the Religious Ed program that throughout history, there were many many different 'ways people made sense of life and death, the known and unknown. I didn't learn to ridicule or hate them for it; it made sense to them. But it was made perfectly clear to me that while UU's didn't have 'all the answers' we were challenged to think! And it was just fine to not believe in a deity, if that was what made most sense to a person.
As a young adult I moved, on my own, across the country, so I sought out the UU church where I knew I would find an all age community of caring, socially active folks, who shared the liberal attitudes I had--some of whom would (and have) become my life long friends.
There have been times throughout my young, and young adult years when I would revisit my 'beliefs' and no, god has never made sense to me. But my UU Church encourages me to never stop considering and learning; to be able to discuss difficult topics, to live with uncertainty without needing to wrap everything up in a tidy supernatural explanation. And we had a kick-ass sexuality course for our youth that was a model for what I think even Dan would say was a comprehensive sex-ed program.
I think I've been a more effective person in my life because I hitched my self to a group of people that have to work together to be successful as a community (far more than a social club!)
and who hold social action to be one of our foundations. My church is not like others. Amen!

To #13: While there may be churches doing good things for Gay people, they are not very vocal about it. There is no equivalent to Brian Brown, Bryan Fischer, or Tony Perkins releasing statements, hosting national radio shows, or being invited on CNN constantly, on the pro-gay side. There are no large organizations such as focus on the family, or the family research council that are pro-gay. So until that happens, any pro-gay churches are just letting the anti-gay ones take over.

@21: Each of the organizations you mention exist for the single twisted purpose of trying to foment fear and loathing towards a targeted group of people. The leaders have one job--to spew their hateful message and make some sort of living from it.

While there may be no large church with a speaking-up-for equivalent voice, the churches whose teachings and preachings are pro-gay are urging their congregants to donate to, march for, and write letters in favor of equal rights causes. They are influence generations of children who feel empowered to speak up for their friends and more importantly, these kids do NOT think of gayness as any big deal.

The ministers of normal churches have to fulfill other duties for the congregation to make a living. You can't fairly compare organizations, whose sole purpose is to harass people and raise $$ to get attention for
their single focused hate-filled goal, to a normal church.

@21 Some of them are plenty vocal about it, but are roundly ignored by the media in general

"The retired presiding bishop of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, the Rt. Rev. Herbert Chilstrom, has delivered a stinging, public critique of his former Roman Catholic counterpart in Minnesota for aggressively campaigning for an anti-same sex marriage amendment on the November ballot." [link]

You commenters above who are ignorantly writing off "all churches" and "all religion" are as bad as Fundamentalists. Just because something doesn't work for YOU (or you choose not to learn about it) doesn't mean that the thing should not exist for other people. This is the mistake that other assholes make...the anti-public-transit people ('I have a car...fuck the rest of you')...the anti-birth-control people ('I'm married. You whores shouldn't have sex!')...The prohibitionists ('alcohol makes me ill and my husband is an alcoholic. Ban it!') Can't you see how hypocritical you are? Do you know ANYTHING about the UCC (United Church of Christ) the Quakers, The Unitarians, Reform Jews, Liberal Muslims? All of these groups and many, many more contribute countless good to our society, and even fight for the right for ignoramuses like you to have the freedoms you enjoy. Please, choose your enemies more wisely. You may need us truly progressive (and I mean REAL) Christians someday. And we won't hold a grudge. Just think next time before you write, and GET AN EDUCATION about what you're writing about. An uninformed opinion isn't worth shit.

Proud UCC member, Portland, Oregon.

You commenters above who are ignorantly writing off "all churches" and "all religion" are as bad as Fundamentalists. Just because something doesn't work for YOU (or you choose not to learn about it) doesn't mean that the thing should not exist for other people. This is the mistake that other assholes make...the anti-public-transit people ('I have a car...fuck the rest of you')...the anti-birth-control people ('I'm married. You whores shouldn't have sex!')...The prohibitionists ('alcohol makes me ill and my husband is an alcoholic. Ban it!') Can't you see how hypocritical you are? Do you know ANYTHING about the UCC (United Church of Christ) the Quakers, The Unitarians, Reform Jews, Liberal Muslims? All of these groups and many, many more contribute countless good to our society, and even fight for the right for ignoramuses like you to have the freedoms you enjoy. Please, choose your enemies more wisely. You may need us truly progressive (and I mean REAL) Christians someday. And we won't hold a grudge. Just think next time before you write, and GET AN EDUCATION about what you're writing about. An uninformed opinion isn't worth shit. And you know what? Your lives might actually be richer if you would renounce your own breed of fundamentalism and open yourselves to something beyond the limits of your own self-limited minds. Jesus, and Buddha, and Ras Tafari, and countless other religious leaders selflessly worked to give the world wisdom and instruction on how to treat other human beings with respect and dignity. Just because evil ones among us have hijacked and twisted these teachings beyond all recognition doesn't mean that the teachings are irrelevant or any iota less true than they were an eternity ago. I'm not telling you what to believe. I'm just asking you to look at the crap in your own eye before you blindly point out the crap that blinds everyone else.

I was raised Baptist. Now that I'm away, I liken to being only slightly better than being raised by wolves. Mind you, my parents were actually pretty great and taught me to think for myself. I saw them question what came down from teh pulpet more than once and for that I am grateful. I'm not sure they're crazy about where free thinking has led me but oh well.

Moving away from the church has often had something of a boomerang effect on me. Sometimes that's not pretty and sometimes it means I lump all Christians and all churches into the same category. No, I don't think that's fair at all - and I will always admit that if someone is happy in a church and found what they are looking for, good for them.

As long as they don't try to recruit me. After all, I don't go around trying to recruit people into the kink or pagan communities even though the former is now a huge part of my life and has done wonders for me. It's just not for everyone.

But even well-meaning people can proseletize without realizing it. And I think that is where the "but you haven't tried *my* church" people fall. For me, it is akin to telling a lesbian, "you just haven't met the right man yet." Fuck you - she's not looking for a man.

And I am not looking for a church. I have found more fulfillment and enlightenment since leaving Christianity than I ever did while I was there - why on earth would I go back? I can accept that not all Christians are evil or judgmental or whatever. But too few of them can accept that I do not need their building in order to appeal to higher powers.

Please do not lump the Unitarian church in with the other churches! It is a place that celebrates all races, sexual orientations and all kinds of diversity, including religious diversity. As a gay atheist I too felt I had no need for churches, but I have found my spiritual home there. It is not about who you are or what you believe but about coming together in a search to find a truth that is meaningful for you.

I like that this thing points out the good that the KoC do in addition to their political views.

My dad walked into his local KoC and said, "I'd like to join, but I'd rather not get involved in politics." Everyone in the room nodded. A lot of Catholic organizations are like that. They support the schools and food banks and ignore the stuff about gays and abortion.

"Please do not lump the Unitarian church in with the other churches!"

Good point. The others actually believe in God. ;)

@31 Unitarians don't believe in God? Thank can't be right...

(Wikipedia, away!)

Unitarians do so believe in God. They just don't believe that God is a Trinity. Hence the "Uni."