What Does a Good Girl Do?


Does the table ignore equivalent Good Guy Greg examples? Like "Don't have a girlfriend/lets you fuck him in the ass?"

lololol the only reason white knight paul constant would post this is cuz hes tryin 2 get laid
Wow, I'm a Good Girl and I'm not even a girl.
Go read the whole thing, please.

or; get a life.....
Well, that just destroyed all the respect I had for the internet.

*eyes rolling down the stairs, out the door, and into the parking lot*

Wait until they find out about 4chan.
This is a part of the western culture, where the persona of a man represents "everyone" and the persona of a woman is specifically "female." So GGGreg is about all the stuff normal people should do, and GGGina is about how to be a good female. Since the latter is viewed from the gender dichotomy, it will always have a sexual/relationship component that the former is free of.

Bottom line: We're still telling stories about ourselves from the lens of the medieval lay/saga.
Reddit? Filled with sexist immature garbage? Whaaaaaa? I knew they protected the privacy of pedophiles but this? How?
I wish the people who had time to complain about these stupid things would spend their time making versions they deem appropriate. Then, when both sides are good and busy, we smush em and just be done with the whole nonsense.
I don't think I've ever seen a Good Girl Gina post make it to the front page, but then I unsubscribed from /adviceanimals so maybe I've got a warped image.

The GGG(reg) image is definitely used more often, which speaks to the assumed masculinity aspect of sexism.
what do you expect from a bunch of anonymous teenage boys?
I don't think that many adults waste their time creating internet memes.
I think it's vitally important to call out this bullshit. If we don't talk about what the dominant narrative is, then we have no way of countering it. I fervently wish I'd had posts like this to read when I was 14 and literally starving myself to death to fit this impossible definition of femininity.
Reddit is funny sometimes, but there are certain problems when everyone doing the upvoting is an antisocial 18 year old male. Cluelessly objectifying women is one of those problems. I'd suggest trying to ignore it, and focusing on the funny cat pictures.
I really hope no one who read that was genuinely surprised that a past time dominated by teenage boys who rarely (if ever) interact with women would be sexist. Not to say that I'm rationalizing this behavior, but you really have to choose your battles- trying to correct this attitude in teenage boys who lack even the most basic self-evaluation skills is like screaming into the wind.
Good Guy Greg:

Sees whiny Internet post about some Reddit thing no one has heard of,

Does not re-post it to get troll comments and fem cred.
Please make note of it: "Boys will be boys" and "Reddit/4Chan/The Internet will be Reddit/4Chan/The Internet" are not good enough answers. Those things do not excuse people for being a bag of dicks.
you know what i hate? i hate it when people ride their bikes on the side walk. that's what i hate.
@11 thank you for speaking up. All the rest of our comments are noise compared with the actual experiences from people affected.
I have no idea what any of y'all are talking about. Then again, I'm 61 years old and just plain don't give a shit any more.

Hmph. And they say being old is a bad thing.

Nobody is excusing it. We're saying that the number of total dickheads in the world is greater than zero. Dickheads like to gather themselves in one place and act like what they are. That place is called Reddit.

Nobody is excusing racism by saying that if you go to Stormfront you'll find a bunch of racists. That's where they hang out.

You can't ban their speech and you can't ban them from assembling. What you can do is not go where they hang out. And don't call for a fainting couch when somebody brings you a report of what it's like at Reddit or Stormfront or whatnot.
So is Slog going to be a faint echo of Feministing all the time now?
Good Girl Gina? Impossible, there are no women on the Internet. On the good old Interbutts, men are men, women are men, and children are FBI agents.
If Slog is getting self righteous, how about not taking ads from Dream Girls and the porn theater at the airport?
It is well worth noting that the GGG(ina) posts aren't very popular, even if they're overwhelmingly sexist. There is a lot of sexism on Reddit, but there's a lot of non-sexist activity as well.
Let's take a look at the numbers. This is all going to be quick-and-dirty back-of-the-envelope estimation. What percentage of the Good Guy Greg version of the meme would you say are sexist? As #6 mentioned above, they're likely to be indicative of what a Good Person, regardless of gender, would do. I'm not going to go through every Greg meme (there are substantially more of them, after all), so I'm going to guess that roughly 90% of the male version of the meme aren't sexist, either against males or females.

Now let's consider the Good Girl Gina posts. For the sake of example I'm going to say they're all sexist -- every single one of them.

Using quickmeme's 'Upcoming' counts, we can get a rough idea of the relative proportion of Greg and Gina images. I see 1970 upcoming Gina images and 88584 Greg ones, or a 2% / 98% split. Factoring in my estimates of how many of those are sexist, we get 1970 sexist Gina images and 8859 Greg ones, or roughly 2.17% and 9.78% of all the images, which comes out to be 12% sexist. I have a feeling that if you factor in the relative karma of these (like the weighting LaTeX_Fetishist did, but taking both gender versions into account), you'd find that the approval percentage of the sexist ones drops below that.

I'm not trying to justify the sexism here. 12% is a horrible rate to be at and I wish it would go down. I'm suggesting that we all dial back the outrage a little bit, and maybe avoid impugning the decency of the readership of an entire massive website due to the few backwards-thinking individuals who made and upvoted the Gina image macros.
You would think that justification and or denial of a sexism (and racism) could change just a little. Same old crap "you women are whiny" or "men can never change." Well women aren't and men can so stop whining and get on with changing because you are clearly fucking wrong and it is a problem.
Wait. I thought this was a thread where we talk about stuff we hate?

@15 Oh. I see.This complaint is about how when men get together on an un-moderated web forums and invent fantasy memes, those memes have to express fantasies that are sexually ideologically vetted. Just like, Im sure, women do on un-moderated internet forms mostly dominated by women, right?

I mean god forbid a man fantasize abut some far fetched absurdist notions like getting sex and food on what ever whim he desires. The BASTARDS!

Like no women ever do that shit. Right?

No women ever fantasize about reductive ideas of men being selfless and bottomless sources of romance and material wealth. Good thing that never happens.
Holy shit, slog commenters, I'm so goddamn proud of you right now.


Paul, please do your next one on how tumblr has become a den of man-hatred and that we really need to clean it up so men can feel safe on the internet again.
@25 You know I'm with you guys most of the time. But you dont get go red alert of every little example of sexism like you're being forced to wear a burkha.

Seriously? Who WOULDN'T fantasize, deep down, that there exists this ideal person who selflessly gives you hot sex and cooks you dinner - or whatever? I know I do. Most PEOPLE do.

So. Really? That is SO offensive to you?

As far as twisted sexists shit on Reddit that meme right there is on the completely benign spectrum. I think you need a wee bit of perspective. When you demonstrate an ability to place things in context better then you'l find more active allies.

But you guys pull red alert and desperately need this outrage so much it becomes impossible to take you seriously just from the fatigue of it all alone.
@26-28. Go fuck yourselves. People IN THIS THREAD explained the life threatening nature of this shit, and its all just fun and games to you.
@19 Pray tell where women can interact w/o sexist comments on the internet?
@29, Dan posted a picture of supposed chiz on some lady's underpants on Monday and there are degrading ads for strip bars on this very website, does that put this in context?
I can't fucking get away from reddit. It's not some obscure corner of the internet, it's the fucking Front Page Of The Internet. President Obama was on reddit. My ex-boyfriend was on reddit all the goddamn time, seriously, almost every time I walked out of the bathroom at his apartment he was glued to reddit on his computer like it was an electromagnet that turned on every time I left the room. And he's 29. I go out with another guy who's in his 30's and also hopelessly addicted to Reddit. These are otherwise smart, more or less evolved males with halfway progressive views on gender, but they uncritically suck down all that sexist poison, and it shows. Every time I hear about what a shitty, hostile place reddit is, I get mad at these guys for loving it.
Everyone who has gone to reddit more than twice should have to register as a sex offender.

Same place you go to be insulated from anything you don't like. Don't want to hear your religion insulted? Don't want to hear complaints about fat? Or gays? Or straights? Only want a pro-corporate, or anti-corporate point of view? Any time you decide you want to never once be offended by anything you dislike, you point your browser at your walled garden, and stay there as long as you like.

Don't have a walled garden that suits you? Then make one. Advertise it on Reddit.
@27 - Aw shit, why didn't anyone tell me there are irrational women out there? Fuck, my world has fallen to pieces.

When was the last time someone called you a worthless piece of apologist shit?
@28 - Honestly, NO. I really, truly fantasize about having an equal relationship. I want someone who cooks and cleans WITH me, not FOR me. Don't assume that everyone has stupid little slavey fantasies like you do.
here's what doesn't sit well with me: the thing about Twilight and Skyfall. my girlfriend wanted to see Skyfall more than I did...should I have said "no fucking way! we're gonna go see that crap remake of Red Dawn because I is a mans!!!"? because I really enjoyed Skyfall.
@32,33 & other bashers of reddit. You sound like fundies discussing the gay lifestyle. The fact is, reddit is the entire internet dissolved into a single site. Yes, there are creepy guys on it. There are also sexist teenagers. There's also political junkies, LGBT support groups, real-life feminazis, car geeks, astronomers, and everything else that holds the interest of a few hundred of your fellow humans. So what?

It's a major step in the evolution of the internet, just like facebook and youtube. It won't go away. You can ignore it, just like you can use an old computer that runs Windows 95. Tell us how that works out for you.
@30: Certainly not here.
@34 Uh, there is no place to be insulated from anything I don't like. You see, I'm not a white, cis, hetero male, never to know a microaggression. The idea that I can not go on reddit to escape sexism is ridiculous. It's everywhere - reddit is just what's used in this example.
@38 Or, I dunno, we could push back against juvenile behavior? Why should we not rock the boat?
@41 because the poor men have sensitive dispositions, which get upset.
38- Reddit is literally the least diverse social networking site of any size on the Internet. Studies show it's 75% white dudes who use words like "feminazi" and make operating system analogies. It's closer to "the entire talk radio audience" than "the entire Internet".
a waste of words. all that was necessary to print was:

"The Reddit"

and you could have stopped there
@41 There is nothing in my post about juvenile behavior, either pro or con. That is entirely your own projection. Maybe you should look into that. But, to respond: I agree that it's a good idea in pushing back against juvenile behavior. I feel it would be better to do so on reddit, where actual juveniles might see it.

@43 I don't know where you get your facts, but I disagree. People all over the globe are regular contributors. It's possible you were trying to make a characterization about myself, since I used the word "feminazi." Neither my tongue, nor my cheek, show up in internet forums, so it's understandable you misread it. If you've ever read any of my other posts on Slog, well, I doubt you would come to the conclusion that I'm a regular listener of talk radio. Now, it is true that I hold a very low opinion of Andrea Dworkin, and the feminists who idolize her. It's also quite true that I'm an arrogant asshole. Just ask @18. But I am quite passionate about fairness, justice & equality for everyone.

The point I'm making is that reddit, as an internet phenomenon, is one of the most important these days. If you don't like it, fine. I just think you should understand what it is and what it does, and not delude yourself by accepting a skewed POV.
@26: Do you ever sit back and cast someone from a specific race (that you deem to be lesser-than) in your little servant-narrative? No. That would be wrong. But you have no qualms casting a woman in your little fantasy, do you?

The trouble with your logic that the past couple thousand years of human history have been made up of men subjugating women by forcing them-- against their will, most of the time-- to play out the very fantasy you so fervently think is natural to dream of. This little span of human history I'm referring to ended only a few decades ago, and barely at that.

You're sexist and you don't even know it. Just like the reddit teenagers. It's so sad.
What the hell do hope to achieve?

C'mon. Why do get conjur up a thousand years of history every time your offended and claim moral monopoly? It's a cute rhetorical tactic that you read about somewhere, but its not always valid. You don't get to take every trivial thing that upsets you and martyr yourself by retrofitting the meaning of sexism to mean whatever you want.

If this silly meme keeps you awake at night and fills you with such self righteous indignigation then you have a VERY privedged and insulated life.

Badically you want to police people fantasies now. Jesus Christ. You want to shame men for wanting blowjobs and dinner? Really.

Take five minutes and think about how insane that is.

So everybody has to have a boring perfect ideologically pure fantasy life approved by you? You understand the point of fantasy, right? People most often fantasize about what is transgressive. Things that are not ACTUALIZED or real. Like video games about killing nazis or stealing cars.

I swear this reflex to get all outraged and demonize male sexuality is the new Puritanism.

Look. I believe in the equality of the sexes and consider myself a feminist. It's pretty much guided all my politics for 40 years.

But if being a feminist now means adopting these overwrought extremist positions on every meme or if that means I have to police people's silly benign fantasies, then I guess I'm an enemy to feminism. Along with probably most of humanity. Is this what you want? Sure sounds like it.

Congratulations. Now YOU'VE alienated over half of humanity.
I am shocked that misogynistic shut-ins are upset about people criticizing Reddit.

Maybe before you bemoan the objectification of women, you should stop taking money from advertisers who make their money by objectifying women.

Because about a third of the ads I see on here are women bending over for men advertising strip clubs, one of which actually says "it's all about you." Which seems to be the SAME EXACT thing you see as a huge sexism problem here.

So keep ranting against the objectification of women while making money off of it, The Stranger. Keep that hypocrisy flag flying.
People who make sexist memes are bad and they should feel bad.

That's the only right answer - acknowledge the bad behavior, but able to do nothing about it in Slog comments other than saying I won't make sexist advice pictures. Woo! Winning?
Are we supposed to also class the "doesn't report date rape because she decides it must be her fault" and "puts up with street harassment with a smile like a good girl" as 'benign silly little fantasies', 47, or have you decided I'm allowed to be offended by those ones? The thing is, you're treating good girl gina like something showing up on, I dunno, whatever the modern equivalent of penthouse forums are (does x-tube have forums?), but as 45 has pointed out, Reddit is not a porn site or a Storm-front like backwater for misogynists, it's one of the most important sites on the internet. And this meme is filed under advice, not twilight-for-menz. And the advice for men is pictured with a regular looking guy grinning like he's having great time doing things that make him a (sometimes over the top) decent person. The woman version is pictured with a model giving an I'm-smiling-to-be-attractive smile doing things that, as you correctly identify, make her a submissive sex-fantasy. Let me repeat that: this is presented, not as a sexy wish-fulfillment fantasy, but as how actual women should behave if they want credit for being 'good'. Men should not call people out for forgetting their names and should give you beer if they pirate your wifi. Men should be decent people. Women should...cook and give blowjobs. And should warn you before hand that there's no way they're going to have sex with you so you don't waste your time pretending to find them interesting conversationalists. And not mind so much if they're sexually harassed. Women shouldn't be people who behave decently, they should be obedient fantasies that provide comfort on demand and literally disappear when they can't provide those things (ie-just leave for 4 days when they're on their period). You really don't see why that's problematic?
Wow. Don't just read the first couple of pages of GGGinas. Skip down to the page 140 neighborhood. There're some REAL gems there.

Also more that appear to be parodies. I assume this list is sorted by upvotes?
@53 makes way more sense than @47 does.
@50 kinda nails it. this shit is awful and we should acknowledge that it's awful... but it doesn't really seem like too many people bothered to read what @24 said. the Gina memes aren't popular by any stretch of the imagination and that's at least a step in the right direction, yeah?

if people were interested in really rocking the boat over at Reddit, I'd posit that a good idea would be to create Gina memes that basically re-word some Greg ones. see if those are received any better. then maybe do a few Greg memes in some kind of feminist/egalitarian ideal and see how they go over. that might put things into better perspective. for all we know, maybe people are just down voting the Ginas because it's a woman. at least this way, we'd have a better idea of how much passive vs active misogyny is really going on over there.

me? I'm not going to do shit because I think Reddit is for sucks and that seems to be the main point people are trying to get across here.
Am I the nerd who has to point out that GGG's actually smoking the wrong end of a cigarette...?
@56 That's a joint.
@tkc: this is not a mere fantasy; it is a meme that was created opposite of a nice guy who actually seems to do nice things for others. The "good girl" only does nice things for men involving impossibly outdated and selfless acts with cooking and sex. I accept that men have these fantasies, and I will indulge my man when I'm not busy you know, working and learning and shit. But I also expect that in this day and age, we stop projecting the message to young women that "being good" is equal to "pleasing a man." Because that's false, wrong, and harmful.

The fact that you're so furious that women might not want such an overtly sexist meme floating around makes me think you really don't understand what's going on here. The creators of this meme aren't calling her "fantasy woman Gina," they're calling her "good girl Gina." And if that's what we teach girls what good means, they're hopeless.
@58 Funny. I don't feel furious? If anybody is furious it's whacky extremists in here who scream for me to go fuck my self.

How dare I suggest that maybe shit like this isn't exactly the Red Alert status you all want it to be. It must be exhausting to be you if this is all it takes to get you het'd up.

The one thing you can control is how you react to things that -maybe only superficially - seem upsetting. For god sake listen to reason. Learn to pick your battles and compromise.

And this particular meme, while I don't use Reddit, It IS obviously a fantasy. You don't have rhetorical leg to stand on denying that. And from what I can see in the cursory viewing of the link it's often a satirical or tongue and cheek fantasy at that.

The most uncharitable divining of an entire genders motives based on this one meme is reactionary tripe. This compulsive need to control other peoples fantasies and subconscious desires is exactly the symptom the worst kind of groupthink and ALWAYS ends poorly for everybody. And It's most dangerous when it's cloaked in a self righteous cause. Suddenly you all are Republicans.

Listen to yourselves. Telling people to be ashamed about wanting blow jobs is insane.

In fact it seems there are people here who totally lost perspective and have gotten ridiculously emotional about what is, in the grand scheme of things (especially on the cesspool that can be Reddit), almost nothing. It's literally impossible to be so worked up all the time. I don't have time for it.

Well. Anyway. Good luck storming the castle.
@59, golly, you're projecting. All I said is that this isn't a great message to send to women, and it's not clear that it's a fantasy. Surely there are men who believe women should operate like good girl Gina, and all this does is perpetuate those ideas. I never said you should fuck yourself, nor that it was unreasonable to want blow jobs (did anyone say that?) but I do think you're being really reactionary right on back, which doesn't help.

You're the overly emotional one, tkc.

@59: " If anybody is furious it's whacky extremists in here who scream for me to go fuck my self."

That's because anyone who pays attention to you knows you're a turd of a person.
I think it's just pointless Internet mockery and absurdity. It seems to me that the meme is very much like the Overly Attached Girlfriend. Both are mocking traditional notions of femininity and assigning false personas to their practice. One meme reinforces the notion by using a Stepford Wife character, the other uses a potential psychopath, but both are poking fun at women who behave this way, and neither is encouraging it (in fact, it's only funny because it's absurd that a woman would behave this way, not because this is how she should behave).

Also, it's dangerous to arm-chair diagnose these memes. They are created almost spontaneously in the net, what makes them catch on is illogical and hard to predict. Did the meme get named GoodGirlGina as an expression of misogyny, or if someone thought it might catch on better being associated with GoodGuyGreg? When people jump on board and "copy" the behavior, are they expressing misogyny, or are they are mocking society's values? The issue when you start taking the directionless actions of thousands or millions of individuals and compartmentalizing them (as if they intended to behave as a single actor) is that you introduce heavy amounts of bias. Certainly some of the manifestations of this meme are created by sexists, but some parts of everything are created by sexists, and racists, and ageists. Simply recognizing this does not actually mean anything, nor does it mean that you've established any validity to your claims, as these things are present in all aspects of the human condition.

If you dislike the meme, you dislike it, that's your right and not everything is funny to everybody, but it's self-love and vanity that convinces you its suppression is part of some greater battle, or some higher aim.

The fact that the Gregs are occassionally examples of decent behavior and occassionally satire, but all the Ginas view women as instruments of male pleasure and having no interests of their own that might superseed that is the problem. If the ratio of satire to seriousness were anywhere near equal, you might have a point. Since it's not, these memes are promoting sexism, full stop. Pointing that out isn't dangerous.
Though I have no stats to back this up, I'm willing to bet there are more female-negative memes out there than for men, or at the very least, they're in far more circulation than those for men. I'm not surprised--after all, the internet is increasingly becoming a reflection of what the culture is like outside the computer, and the culture is still quite sexist. I think people like negative memes about women because it allows them to keep in their brains the idea that there are just "types" of women; different characters, 9 of 10 of which are bitchy, crazy, or annoying. And the "good" ones, they're selfless beacons of submission. Regarding women as individuals; persons; autonomous people who are leading their own lives is hard for many people, including other women.

And I point out when people are being sexist in real life, and I'll do it on the web, too. This shit is sexist. Sadly, I think sexism is so ingrained into our society that people don't even realize when they're doing it, or play it off as if it's harmless. It's not. For the record, when I see someone claiming that men should be all macho or know how to build something or not have emotions, I call that out as well.

How many times have you loved someone who didn't love you back? Thought your relationship was perfect, and then it fell apart? Been scared because you didn't know how to fix your crumbling relationship or marriage? Wished you could be smarter about dating? Do you have to Be Beautiful to Win a Man's Love? You don't know it yet, but what's been missing is the foundation for a rock-solid relationship. Without a foundation, you're just sitting on sand and the first wave that comes along will wash away everything, no matter how solid you thought it was.


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