just for balance, how about a few quotes from the Koran, the bagavad gita whatever it's called, or confucious? however that's spelled.
then address the atheist condundrum: isn't it faith that gets you to the point of view that there's right and wrong because really, without some spiritual value in the universe the cold universe is indifferent if all mankind lives or dies, or if one does, or if a crime is committed or if we kill the planet with carbon pollution, or if we fail to grow the economy, whatever. if it's all a bunch of dust particles really, there's no morality other than what we "make up." It' s all ultimately assertion, not based in anything, and isn't that the definition of faith?
@8,
That's not really an atheist conundrum, it's a religious conundrum. Yes, morality IS relative. Morality is based in what humans decide is right and wrong at the time.
There is no absolute right and wrong. No absolute morality. Morality changes (for example, slavery was once seen as moral, now it's not).
I give props to Goldie for this weekly Bible Study schtick. I bet if didn't provide a bible verse and simply said "Discuss" the post would get a lot of comments.
I can't agree with you, Matt. Many primitive cultures in places that have had little or no contact with western civilization have developed morals that are completely different than ours.
@23,
Well, yeah, they're doing it for the greater good. But what's considered good changes sometimes. What's considered right and wrong changes. The only permanent and universal principle I can think of is survival. Some people commit suicide, but most people do almost everything they can to survive and spread their genes around.
If I remember correctly, the infanticide group were pretty isolated and didn't always have access to doctors who could do safe abortions, so the tribe allowed infants newly born to be killed.
slavery was never considered "moral"; it was considered an economic necessity. The attitude toward slaves as naturally being unable to guide their own lives was a justification which flowed from that attitude of economic necessity. (Just as the longstanding attitude toward women as being unable to guide their own lives was a justification for patriarchical power.)
I looked through a Hebrew-English side-by-side version of Proverbs 30. It's all some pretty dense and confusing stuff, talking about how graves and fire are never satisfied, and that it's best not to be poor or rich, and how some animals are paradoxically weak and strong at once.
@27: I read the full NIV of Proverbs 30, and yeah, it's pretty obscure stuff, but it has some points: those who are not comfortable but not desperate are most likely to believe in God. The desperate must ask "why me" while the comfortable have no need of a God.
Proverbs 30 is the words of Agur son of Jakeh of Massa, to some other guys It's/not purported to be words of God. Goldy runs out of important Tanakh/Christian stuff sometimes.
Morality is an exercise in game theory. Take cheating, for example. In a highly moral society almost no one would cheat, enabling thieves and liars to go unchecked since there would little chance of their being caught and brought to justice. In a highly amoral society everyone would lie and cheat, making it impossible for anykind of social stability to exist; and actual moral behavior - caring for the community, the young, the sick, the elderly, the poor - would be selected out. An amoral society would be a nightmarish dystopia, which is why we are more afraid of that outcome as a species.
There must in any stable society be a point of equilibrium where there is a balance between cheaters and cooperators. Morality is the story we tell ourselves about striking that balance.
So, morality is both relative (I would call it "emergent") and absolute, in the same sense that physical constants are absolute (they are "path-determined" - once the system stabilizes around a particular value, it is highly resistant to further change.)
@28: if the desperate ask "why me" and the comfortable have no need of a God (both highly debatable propositions) then there is a theological flaw in their belief system. Theology is not here to tell us how to live our lives when we are happy. It is here to provide guidance when we are not.
"The leech has two daughters.
‘Give! Give!’ they cry."
It would apply perfectly to our local State Senator/asshole, Rodney Tom - but he only has one daughter. His other spawn is a son. Either way - Tom is a leech.
"to devour the poor from off the earth, and the needy"
a few recent examples...
A big corporation flexes its muscles right here in Seattle:
http://washingtonstatewire.com/blog/stun…
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/11/0…
subsidies for corporate entities, starvation for the poor:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/13/opinio…
Nationwide (and international) closure of public schools:
" This follows a nationwide trend that has seen more than 40 percent of closed public school buildings across the country turned over to charter schools.' (a free public service can become a new market to prop up capitalism)
D.C.: This follows a nationwide trend that has seen more than 40 percent of closed public school buildings across the country turned over to charter schools.
Portland: (averted, for now) http://www.oregonlive.com/opinion/index.…
San Francisco: http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section…
@32
""The leech has two daughters.
‘Give! Give!’ they cry."
It would apply perfectly to our local State Senator/asshole, Rodney Tom - but he only has one daughter. His other spawn is a son. Either way - Tom is a leech."
Aye! Aye! Tom is the leech and hope soon that his constituents will cut off his blood supply.,
Funny, in today's Bible slog I see the masculine leech in the room, projecting blame on two female spawn.
And, Woody married his step-daughter, he's officially a daddy leech too.
then address the atheist condundrum: isn't it faith that gets you to the point of view that there's right and wrong because really, without some spiritual value in the universe the cold universe is indifferent if all mankind lives or dies, or if one does, or if a crime is committed or if we kill the planet with carbon pollution, or if we fail to grow the economy, whatever. if it's all a bunch of dust particles really, there's no morality other than what we "make up." It' s all ultimately assertion, not based in anything, and isn't that the definition of faith?
Discuss.
That's not really an atheist conundrum, it's a religious conundrum. Yes, morality IS relative. Morality is based in what humans decide is right and wrong at the time.
There is no absolute right and wrong. No absolute morality. Morality changes (for example, slavery was once seen as moral, now it's not).
Push Push in the Bush
Push Push in the Bush
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TC705nUf…
Slavers believed they were doing the moral thing, and many people agreed with them.
Morality is relative.
Morality is guided by fixed principles.
Not permanent or universal principles.
Some Inuit tribes practiced infanticide. Some Polynesian tribes practiced incest. There are plenty of examples of people with vastly different morals.
The only fixed point of reference for them was what their communities decided.
Even today, some people think abortion is immoral, others don't. Some people think capital punishment is immoral, others don't. It's all relative.
Well, yeah, they're doing it for the greater good. But what's considered good changes sometimes. What's considered right and wrong changes. The only permanent and universal principle I can think of is survival. Some people commit suicide, but most people do almost everything they can to survive and spread their genes around.
If I remember correctly, the infanticide group were pretty isolated and didn't always have access to doctors who could do safe abortions, so the tribe allowed infants newly born to be killed.
Morality is an exercise in game theory. Take cheating, for example. In a highly moral society almost no one would cheat, enabling thieves and liars to go unchecked since there would little chance of their being caught and brought to justice. In a highly amoral society everyone would lie and cheat, making it impossible for anykind of social stability to exist; and actual moral behavior - caring for the community, the young, the sick, the elderly, the poor - would be selected out. An amoral society would be a nightmarish dystopia, which is why we are more afraid of that outcome as a species.
There must in any stable society be a point of equilibrium where there is a balance between cheaters and cooperators. Morality is the story we tell ourselves about striking that balance.
So, morality is both relative (I would call it "emergent") and absolute, in the same sense that physical constants are absolute (they are "path-determined" - once the system stabilizes around a particular value, it is highly resistant to further change.)
‘Give! Give!’ they cry."
It would apply perfectly to our local State Senator/asshole, Rodney Tom - but he only has one daughter. His other spawn is a son. Either way - Tom is a leech.
a few recent examples...
A big corporation flexes its muscles right here in Seattle:
http://washingtonstatewire.com/blog/stun…
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/11/0…
subsidies for corporate entities, starvation for the poor:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/13/opinio…
Nationwide (and international) closure of public schools:
" This follows a nationwide trend that has seen more than 40 percent of closed public school buildings across the country turned over to charter schools.' (a free public service can become a new market to prop up capitalism)
chicago: http://graphics.chicagotribune.com/schoo…
Philidelphia: http://thenotebook.org/school-facilities… and at the same time they allocate 400 million more dollars to building prisons.
NYC: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/12/educat…
Atlanta: http://www.atlantadailyworld.com/2013072…
D.C.: This follows a nationwide trend that has seen more than 40 percent of closed public school buildings across the country turned over to charter schools.
Portland: (averted, for now) http://www.oregonlive.com/opinion/index.…
San Francisco: http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section…
Oakland: http://saveoaklandschools.org/2013/06/13…
New Jersey: http://www.localtalknews.com/newark/educ…
This has been going on in L.A. for a while: http://www.latimes.com/opinion/commentar…
Spain: http://elpais.com/elpais/2013/05/09/inen…
and so on...
@36... So, you're gay, 5280 ?
...but my favorite - by way of Pope Woody I - is this one:
"...The lamb and the lion shall lie down together ...but the lamb won't get much sleep!"
--Woody 1:23:4
""The leech has two daughters.
‘Give! Give!’ they cry."
It would apply perfectly to our local State Senator/asshole, Rodney Tom - but he only has one daughter. His other spawn is a son. Either way - Tom is a leech."
Aye! Aye! Tom is the leech and hope soon that his constituents will cut off his blood supply.,
Funny, in today's Bible slog I see the masculine leech in the room, projecting blame on two female spawn.
And, Woody married his step-daughter, he's officially a daddy leech too.