An established linens importer? You don't say.

I am always afraid upon opening the SLLOTD that the LW will not be established in their community. Call me old fashion, but I just don't trust shiftless fly-by-night fabric importers to tell us the whole story when it comes to the minutiae of their love life.

@1 knows what's up.

Dan, you don't look fat in those jeans. Mostly because YOU AREN'T FAT. You may see yourself as fat, but trust me. You are NOT FAT. Christ.

"4. Why am I attracted to this addictive cycle and will I stay away from repeating it? Were the videos all I really wanted?"

Why all the shame and confusion over the videos? It's not like they'd suddenly stop being hot.

@1 indeed, an established linens importer, not just cotton but also wool linens.

That's why he gave us the whole yarn.

The question is ill phrased. "Do I look fat in X?" is inferiour to "Do(es) X make me look fat?" as the latter question allows the cross-examined partner more options of flattering honesty or flattering deception, either of which can meet the burden of reasonable doubt. One could say No honestly, meaning that it's not X, it's the fat.

But I also think of the difference between the deliberate lie and the sincere inaccuracy. It's tempting to give Mr Miller more credit than Mr Savage does, and to suppose that to Mr Savage's objective question Mr Miller returns a subjectively honest denial because to him Mr Savage doesn't look fat.

I also half guess that Mr Savage could avoid looking fat in X if he really wanted to change his routine. He's chosen to direct the required effort elsewhere; nothing is wrong with that.

As for the LW, I think we could find him a match from among the frequent posters here.

CTTANOTBBM,

When you weigh the positives versus the negatives, if you have an all or nothing conditional, you're wasting your time (weighing things). Are you trying to make yourself heroic for undergoing all the pain? Dan has pronounced her a CPOS, so you aren't "at fault" except in wanting to trust & believe in your partner. If you want to make the best of things, when you find somebody new, have a secret midnight ceremony for smashing the last copies of your videos together, and be free.

No one truly forgets their past loves, but we owe it to our SO and ourselves to be in the moment with that person. Everyone has "war" stories, but it's better to live in peace.

Peace

Oh, and...

What an amazing performance in reading that soliloquy! The disconnect between her professional persona (overstuffed lingerie model (Bimbo)) and her ability to drop everyone's jaw in awe must have been done intentionally. A very enjoyable 92 seconds if you didn't watch...

Peace

And,

You're not fat, you're fishing for compliments...

Peace

With guys like this, the short answer is: get a clue!

Re his third question: A subset of people who want to have multiple partners at once is people who get turned on by cheating. Offered an open relationship they will immediately figure out how to violate the new rules so it still feels like cheating. I don't know which group she's in, but she's shown you in every possible way that she will not be monogamous with you.

Too busy clapping for @2 and @6 to bother with the letter.

@12: An interesting point, from "He was butt-hurt, she said, that I had won and "got the girl" over him and she convinced me that I had nothing to worry about.", she could be playing all parties involved, telling each of them that the other hadn't "gotten" her and playing off the travel with the LW as work-related.

@1 - Snork! Also: 2 & 6.

What a doormat this guy is...she keeps using the crazy hot sex to pull him back in, but it's the drama that secretly gets him off. Amazing how people who over-think manage to be so oblivious...I guess that's why you do all the over-thinking - to avoid the obvious.

I only read a 1/3 of the letter but clearly murder-suicide is the best thing for everyone in this case.

LW ftw, Cuckold's ultimate fantasy achieved.

Chill out about the sleepovers, dude. They were probably just playing truth or dare and watching scary movies and doing each other's nails. You know, like people in their 30's do all the time.

She cried and before leaving said that the most special and most appreciated she has ever felt was when I took her back last time and that she wants to feel that way all the time.

Yeah, I think that pretty much says it all.

Jesus Fucking Christ... there is no way in hell I'm reading all that. I'll just use the stock answer: DTMFA.

/hopes that's a legitimate response.

@20 Tl;dr: He already D'd TMFA, multiple times, this time maybe for good. Ex girlfriend sounds like a terrible person. I think he's basically just asking to have his decision validated, and wondering why he's such a glutton for punishment.

I am 50-year old healthy, established linens importer and a divorced heterosexual male who for five years has been dating and loving a 68-year old beautiful, smart and sexy, successful businesswoman...

And 50 is a lot closer to 68 than 32 is to 50.

Would that 68-year-old expect her walker to be monogamous? And would he expect her to shower him with attention, devotion and lavish trips?

He should use condoms and enjoy the relationship for what it is.

@22 Marrena,

Yeah, except that monogamy seems to be THE requirement.  

Ah well, I'll use Bob Dylan:

"Most Likely You Go Your Way And I'll Go Mine"

You say you love me
And you’re thinkin’ of me
But you know you could be wrong
You say you told me
That you wanna hold me
But you know you’re not that strong
I just can’t do what I done before
I just can’t beg you anymore
I’m gonna let you pass
And I’ll go last
Then time will tell just who fell
And who’s been left behind
When you go your way and I go mine

You say you disturb me
And you don’t deserve me
But you know sometimes you lie
You say you’re shakin’
And you’re always achin’
But you know how hard you try
Sometimes it gets so hard to care
It can’t be this way ev’rywhere
And I’m gonna let you pass
Yes, and I’ll go last
Then time will tell just who fell
And who’s been left behind
When you go your way and I go mine

The judge, he holds a grudge
He’s gonna call on you
But he’s badly built
And he walks on stilts
Watch out he don’t fall on you

You say you’re sorry
For tellin’ stories
That you know I believe are true
You say ya got some
Other kinda lover
And yes, I believe you do
You say my kisses are not like his
But this time I’m not gonna tell you why that is
I’m just gonna let you pass
Yes, and I’ll go last
Then time will tell who fell
And who’s been left behind
When you go your way and I go mine

Copyright © 1966 by Dwarf Music; renewed 1994 by Dwarf Music

Peace

I think the LW should read "Opening Up" and a bunch of cuckold erotica and see whether some part of him is turned on by the whole sordid mess. The strong emotions he feels when imagining her fucking the other guy could be a sign of a taboo that excites him on some level. Or not. But if it turns out he likes it, they'll have a good thing together. Maybe the businesswoman knows him better than he knows himself.

When I ask my partner if I look fat in these jeans, what I'm asking is "do these jeans make me look fatter than usual; fatter than I'd look in something else?" and I damn well want an honest answer so I can go change while there's still time. Just like "do I look okay" does not mean "am I pretty," it means "are there any stains on my clothes that I have failed to notice."

Ms Erica - He'd have to deceive her about liking it. Having a good thing together isn't just a matter of interlocking kinks.

It reminds me of the legal standing of nicking from an empty warehouse. We can reasonably safely assume ill intent on BW's part; if, by some great stroke of good fortune her ill action does no harm (just as breaking in to steal something only to be a day late or early and the items have already moved on or haven't arrived yet), that may mitigate the punishment, but it doesn't undo the intent.

Sorry to be vague, but this is a reference to a Rumpole case that was only mentioned as a secondary plot device and never fleshed out. After Tony Timson had broken into a shop intending to steal televisions that weren't there, Rumpole and the Timson's solicitor Mr Bernard were deep in conference when Liz Probert, hoping to become Rumpole's pupil, brought him in coffee. As Rumpole (who often opined that knowledge of the law was a bit of a handicap to a barrister) was fudging in response to Mr Bernard's question about the doctrine of impossible intent and what the House of Lords had had to say about the matter, Mizz Liz casually flipped through the Law Reports and surreptitiously directed Rumpole's attention to Regina v Swinglehurst, the case in question. This impressive display of legal knowledge led Rumpole to speculate that the pair of them might have gotten the Macbeths acquitted of regicide, but there was no further mention of the case.

Even if he did the things she claims she wants (accept her nonmonogamous ways) this relationship wouldn't work. She doesn't want a calm and forthright relationship; she needs this cycle of betrayal and forgiveness. Unless he proves that he loves her by overlooking behavior that she knows he hates, she won't "feel special and appreciated."

Also murder-suicide for quoting entire Bob Dylan songs in the comments.

@24: "I think the LW should read "Opening Up" and a bunch of cuckold erotica and see whether some part of him is turned on by the whole sordid mess. The strong emotions he feels when imagining her fucking the other guy could be a sign of a taboo that excites him on some level. Or not. But if it turns out he likes it, they'll have a good thing together. Maybe the businesswoman knows him better than he knows himself."

She loves the dramz. Just because they enjoy the make-up sex that punctuates the constant cheating doesn't mean that it's healthy for either of them.

@22: "Would that 68-year-old expect her walker to be monogamous? And would he expect her to shower him with attention, devotion and lavish trips? "

Regardless of age, If she's told that the relationship is monogamous, what you're saying is irrelevant. Yes, she should expect to not be lied to, regardless if the partner is decent and true. Now, at this point, she in this situation should expect nothing more than constant lies, so she should dump her partner if monogamy is what she's expecting.

@25: Usually I get the "how do I look for this event", and I respond based on appropriateness and what I think of the outfit. That way there's more "I'm not feeling it" based responses and never the need for "you look fat".

@28 Clara,

Sorry about the length. Usually long entries have a more or less hiding function. Neither this set of lyrics nor the Devo song I posted about the second skin ladies had that happen, no idea why. I guess I'll stick to links to lyrics pages (or including a copyright sigil defeats the wrapping script???).

Still it's a great and apropos song isn't it?

Peace

@31 continued,

Though if he does go back to her, I'd use "Idiot Wind" instead.

Peace

Mr. Ven, why would he have to deceive her about liking it?

@ 33, Erica P

I assume Ven is guessing that it's not the polygamy she likes so much as the drama of the cheating, getting caught, and making up. If that's the case and cheating no longer produces drama, she'll find some other activity that's a dealbreaker for him, and start doing it compulsively.

Polyamorists aren't that hard to find, so I suspect Ven is right--if she was really interested in consensual polyamory, she'd have been able to find consensual partners by now.

The dynamic of cuckolding is different from the dynamic of polyamory. It's much more about dirtiness and illicitness and drama, even when both people are consenting.

Maybe he wouldn't know the details, and would always wonder what she was up to. Maybe she would come home each time and rub his face in it. People do discover kinks, even in middle age. If it turned out that he's really turned on by her having sex with a younger, hotter guy, then they might be a good match. Odds are, he's just upset and not turned on. So I don't hold out much hope this would work. But it seems worth considering.

It is, but they've been doing this for five years--if a consenting partner in a cuckoldry scheme was what she wanted, there are a lot of steps she could've taken to get one. It might be that this is her taking that first step, but five years spent lying usually indicates a preference for lying. If I spent five years watching football games, I probably wasn't actually trying to watch tennis.

It could be that they're two weeks away from a mutually-satisfactory cuckolding relationship, but I think that's unlikely--it doesn't sound like he's at all turned on, and it doesn't sound like she's interested in anything consensual.

@25 and @30. Does this mean we have permission to KTMFA when the answer is always "you look fine?" or am I stuck with murder suicide?

Lucyboots --

You are stuck with murder-suicide but must do it exquisitely and therefore must practice till you get it right. So I suggest "scenes" and being a perfectionist who never gets it right!

@36

If I spent five years watching football games, I probably wasn't actually trying to watch tennis.

Yes. YES. I'm really not seeing any indication of a secret cuckold fetish on either side in this letter. In all likelihood, she's just one of those people who gets off on cheating and manipulating others - a true CPOS. Maybe she'd do okay in an open/poly relationship, but she'd probably find a way to violate the boundaries of that too, since it seems to be the violation (and subsequent drama) that she's after.

@36: Exactly. I don't know why anyone keeps shoving that polyamory kludge in with irresponsible and/or unwilling participants.

Regardless of whether these 2 people are in love, they're incompatible and want different things from the relationship. LW is never going to be happy with the arrangement as it is, and the girlfriend is never going to change, so it's best for both to move on.

I mean blah blah "raising awareness" but all you're doing is associating it with people who'd "practice" it like a train practices derailment.

@ 37: Does this mean we have permission to KTMFA when the answer is always "you look fine?" or am I stuck with murder suicide?

Wait, are we assuming you're Henry VIII or are we assuming you're not Henry VIII?

@40: Exactly. I don't know why anyone keeps shoving that polyamory kludge in with irresponsible and/or unwilling participants.
I get where they're coming from, usually--I'm sure polyamory (or something like it) is the right solution for some people, and that some of those people have never considered it and therefore can benefit from having it suggested. But it's a solution to a problem that LW isn't having.

@41 Regardless of whether these 2 people are in love, they're incompatible and want different things from the relationship.

Yeah. But it's pretty clear that LW's MF who he DTA'd doesn't love him. Five years spent lying to him and cheating on him? That's not how people in love act, in my experience. But even if she does really love him, that just means she treats people she loves really, really shittily. You don't want none of that.

I mean, for heaven's sake, she straight-up admitted that the best part is the post-betrayal makeup sex. Usually MFs like her don't admit that, but when they do, take them at their word: They get off on betrayal, and they're going to keep betraying.

@20: Yeah, DTMFA is a pretty safe blind bet, and this is no exception.

But @16 wins the thread.

@43,

"She cried and before leaving said that the most special and most appreciated she has ever felt was when I took her back last time and that she wants to feel that way all the time."

Was that really only about the makeup sex? I think she is one of those persons that lives to feel desired, and the LW really attempted to make her need to stay. Was sex part of that, I sure hope so. Ultimately, I suspect the sex outside is just a symptom of the need for "her guys" making her Princess.

Peace

I don’t think there’s any point to discussing polyamory here. But.

As EricaP points out, when person A has been behaving badly for many years and person B has been tolerating it for many years, it might be worth investigating why person B is tolerating it.

I tolerated my ex-from-hell for about a year and a half. I could list all the reasons I was interested in being with her, but operating on the civil assumption that she was in basic working order except for a couple of hiccups was making me crazy. When I realized it was more than a couple of hiccups it was over. I wasn’t with her because of the problems, but things were so strange with her that I didn’t know how to trust my own judgement and it was hard to figure out that I needed to leave.

We all know the stories about women staying with abusive men. Saying that the women in these situations enjoy being assaulted and belittled, that they get off on it, is horribly misogynistic.

So we have lots of precedent for interpreting CTTANOTBBM’s staying as being some variant of “she fucked with his head,” possibly with some measure of “his head wasn’t that great to begin with” thrown in.

EricaP would like us to consider another interpretation of the five years of torture, that there’s something about being cuckolded that gets CTTANOTBBM where he lives. If he were to reinterpret the relationship as one where he’s a miserable cuckold fetishist and he’s actively choosing that dynamic it might be a useful reframing.

It’s worthwhile reviewing a range of scenarios rather than picking just one and anointing it king, and EricaP’s proposal does that.

But ultimately I think it has more in common with the abuser/abusee dynamic, where the abuser does something awful, apologizes profusely, is good for a period of time, then does something worse — and the abusee keeps thinking that the abuse is an anomaly rather than something that’s going to escalate, and allows the sunk costs fallacy to keep them from leaving.

@46: "As EricaP points out, when person A has been behaving badly for many years and person B has been tolerating it for many years, it might be worth investigating why person B is tolerating it. "

As with the videos, he's described shame and low self-esteem.

This is not new in the land of relationships and is well-explained without diving into cuckoldom.

I'd probably agree with the reframing more if it took the most broken, personality disorder-y one out of the dating pool, but it never does...

@19: Exactly.

Clearly what she gets off on is ego: that she is so fucking incredible, and to prove it she can abuse his trust horribly, time after time, and he will just take her back again and again because she is so fucking special. What a power trip. And then she panics when he tries to call it quits, because that would expose the truth that no, actually, she isn't all that and a bag of chips too.

"She says this is who she is, that I know this, and that everyone is a package deal and that I need to learn to love her for all her aspects."

Actually, no you don't. You don't "need to learn to love" ANYTHING about her. Dealbreaker is a perfectly legitimate concept, as is DTMFA. Getting clear on this will be immensely helpful to both of you: you, to get over her and break the cycle; her, to burst that inflated, misshapen thing she calls an ego.

On the other hand, dude, you are so totally not blameless here. You walked into a relationship where you saw this person cheating with two other people, and somehow thought that things were going to be magically different when it was you wearing the commitment ring? She's not the only one with the oversized high opinion of their own worth in the context of a relationship. I don't believe in the concept of "once a cheater, always a cheater," but this woman is obviously deeply committed to that lifestyle. You aren't going to change her, and never were. If monogamy truly was what you wanted all along, you were an idiot for getting involved in the first place.

For what it's worth, I had a similar situation with a non-monogamous girlfriend decades ago, and yes, I was an idiot for getting involved in the first place and then expecting her to change.

I went through this in the course of a five-year marriage. I finally realised that she did not love me but simply found me useful. That's when I walked out and never looked back.

"She says this is who she is, that I know this, and that everyone is a package deal and that I need to learn to love her for all her aspects."

@50 is right on. Additionally , you can't love her anyway unless you love yourself, and you can't love yourself unless you stop putting up with her abusive bullshit.

WRT #1, 2, & 6, I feel like I'm missing a huge cultural reference here.

"32-year old beautiful, smart and sexy, successful businesswoman who likes to be pampered, appreciated and supported in her burgeoning career"

Thousands of young businesspeople would like that too, but some try to succeed on their own talents, while others, who were born "beautiful, smart and sexy", prefer to sleep their way into mentoring from an established older businessman.

Indeed, smart of her to "allow" LW to support her burgeoning carreer, when it's probably the only use she has for him. Being "successful" without his full-on help could have been a bit tricky, right ?

She was sleeping with two other man when she met him. Were those men also influential in her proposed line of career ? But less influential than LW, if she dumped them for him.

Alas for poor mentor, deceitful hot businesswoman is living a double life ! She has at least one younger lover, whom she was allowed to relocate to a less exposed place, in order to profit à deux from the silliness of her mentor ! I bet they're having heaps of fun everytime they discuss LW's role in both their burgeoning careers.

But after 5 years of happily profiteering from him, their Sugar Daddy keeps making a fuss about this monogamy clause. What to do ? Oh, yes, let's tell him it's a conflict of generation, and that :

"this is who she is, that I know this, and that everyone is a package deal and that I need to learn to love her for all her aspects."

And who could blame her to try to tighten a bit LW's leash ? He already came back twice crawling for the same shit, maybe he's already broken enough to come back even if he's not given the best part of her days ?

Then, as her own business will keep on soaring, her schedule will run tighter and tighter, and she won't have much time left for her sweet old mentor -- then she'll dump him when her burgeoning career will have flowered.

Or -- he'll need her business help, because his established company will have run into trouble ; and that's when he'll learn the hard way, that what he thought were friendship and love, was always just in his imagination.

Either way, she'll avenge herself from his good deeds to her, by inflicting the last dose of poison : "Don't tell me you didn't know all along it would end like this".

@55 sissoucat,

If this is Gallic practicality, OUCH!

Peace

P.S.: Note, this is not Gaelic practicality; I think...

Sissoucat nailed it.

I once knew a guy who had a pretty similar relationship. In his 40's, he married a woman in her 20's and supported her all the way through grad school. Just before she graduated, she moved out and told him they were getting divorced. Afterwards, he found out she'd been cheating on him with guys her own age the whole time.

@Married

I don't advocate for such behavior (known as "couch promotion" in my country), but I'm cynic enough to spot it, and I'm pretty surprised nobody else did before !

Maybe that's Gallic cynicism.