I think comparisons to Oscar Grant should be withheld until it's determined by surveillance whether or not Giron did pull a gun. Oscar Grant was shot in the back of the head while he was lying face-down with his hands cuffed behind his back.

That being said, cops shoot unarmed and restrained people all the time. And when they do, the DO lie about it. Not once have I ever heard of a cop holding themselves accountable for their actions. I am certainly more skeptical of KCS's side of the story than the protesters.

If the account the police give is true, and he pulled a gun, there's really nothing more to say. If you brandish a gun in public, someone should shoot you before you hurt somebody.

If he merely had a gun on him, he was a douchebag, no matter what his color, or whether or not he paid his fare. He shouldn't have been shot, but he shouldn't have had that gun on him. And if he had paid his fare, he would have passed the fare inspection, and gone on his douchey way with his stupid gun.

As for him bring "profiled", that is a load of crap. I have been on the train a million times when fare enforcement comes through. They look at everyone's ticket/pass. If you paid, you ride. If you stole, you get pulled off the train and cited.

The poverty and race issues are interesting, but aren't relevant. He pulled a gun on a cop. They are trained to defend themselves with lethal force when met with a lethal threat. Don't want to die when arguing with the police, keep your guns holstered.

Why didn't the crowd protest that the Link and parts of Seattle so dangerous poor immigrant youth like Oscar Giron and Josue Seijo (Seijo was arrested and processed into King County Jail hours afterward for unlawful possession of a firearm and assault of a LEO) have to carry guns with them in daylight hours?

let's see the tape.

Two years ago I was on a Sounder train going to Seahawks, and I forgot to swipe my ORCA card. I crossed my fingers and hoped they wouldn't check, but as usual, they did between Tukwila and Seattle. In my car, the conductor didn't check many people, and in fact, it seemed like he made a beeline right to me. I explained to no avail. He took my picture, put me in the database, and issued me a warning, meaning, I would pay the fine the next time.

So was I profiled?

They don't profile, they check everyone. If it's your first time getting caught they let you off with a warning. If you're a repeat offender they give you a ticket.

Wasn't Giron travelling with two other young gentlemen? Could neither of them afford spotting him $2.50 without having to pawn a firearm? I hope they feel like crap for letting their miserliness cost him his life.

Looks like I got Parra's name wrong. How is it that fare evasion on Sound Transit is okayed, but people get crap for resisting regressive taxation initiatives to pay for King County's Metro transit?

Keister dear, I don't get that argument. So person A carries a gun because he's afraid of a bunch of people who also have guns. But if he pulls that gun out, he's either going to shoot someone (which in effect ruins his life more often than not) or he gets shot himself (which either ends his life or screws it up significantly)

No matter what happens in that scenario, someone is going to get shot, and the person doing the shooting will likely end up a felon.

The police and government can only do so much, and frankly, what they are good at (shooting people and running transit systems equitably) is not going to help this group of people. Why don't all these poetry readers and concerned mothers work on putting an end to this self-destructive culture?

Ben Schiendelman "We should ask our transit agencies to develop a path to make transit free."

They might have a way to skip paying bus fare (lord only knows how many ways they bend over backwards to provide bus passes to the poor, including donating those that car tab payers are given a "ticket" to send in to claim) but it's never going to be free. Maybe Sawant will find a $0/hr public workers' collective to build buses at a Boeing factory using scrap materials recovered from plane derailment and everyone can take turns driving the bus until they arrive at their stop....

I don't know how they do it in Seattle but here in Minneapolis, if you're on the train when they're checking they will check you. They've checked me a few times (including one time when I was in a rush and hadn't stopped to pay and got a large ticket, first offence) and I'm a non-threatening unarmed middle-age white guy.

I'll wait until the tape comes out before passing judgement on the cops. If you pull a gun on the cops you're going to get killed. Even if you take the first couple down, the others will kill you and they are 100% justified in doing so. That said, if the shooting was justified I think they would have already released the tape, or at least still shots. If you're an illegal immigrant, or pretty much anybody else, you shouldn't be carrying a gun with you in the first place but if you have it don't pull it on the cops.

If you're afraid of being deported pay your fucking fare numbnuts! Also, if you do stupid things to draw attention to yourself like getting a fucking tattoo on your head, don't do illegal shit because you're putting up big red flags to the cops. I agree that we shouldn't allow racial profiling but to say we shouldn't "profile" based on how people are dressed is bullshit. If you dress and act like a gang member or a thug you should expect people to assume you are. You don't choose your race but you absolutely choose how to dress.

Finally, fuck each and every person out there chanting that public transit should be free. It's an expensive service and if you want a service pay for it fuckers. Be glad that it's subsidized at all. I'm 100% in favor of subsidizing public transit but riders (myself included) should pay their fucking fair share! If you need public transit and really can't afford the fare to get to work there are programs (here at least) to help you individually.

Good for Catalina & Root.
Sensible remarks.
We'll see what the tape shows.

@6 and @8: Agreed!

I agree with Catalina & Root. Well put. Giron isn't Grant. If Giron possessed a firearm and that remains to confirmed, the police had every right for their eventual lethal actions.

It is most unfortunate for all parties. But, if Giron carried a gun, he was a damned fool and this demonstration ridiculous.

Take the other people out of the transaction.

Fence off the station with two sets of gates. 1st lets you in, the second lets you pay and go to the train.
Everybody just gets on and goes.

Let me help you with that headline. You must have meant to write:

"Mob Steals Light Rail Fare to Protest Convicted Felon's Death at Sodo Station"

There. That's better.

If SPD and KCS only "release a portion of the video or possibly still frames" I will assume they're hiding something.

I guess "a violent felon unlawfully in possession of a gun" just doesn't have the same zing as "immigrant youth" for The Stranger's headline writers.

The demonstrators argued that Giron was profiled and singled out for fare enforcement.

Is there any corroborating evidence for this account? Every single time I've encountered fare enforcement (on link or RR) they've checked everyone on the train, no exceptions.

I think its great we live in a country where foreign nationals guilty of illegal entry can block access to a public resource to commit additional crimes to protest the fact that an illegal immigrant who was illegally possessing a firearm was shot.

Clearly every actionable law is being exercised, and no sense of entitlement is present at all.

The dude may have been in a gang, but he also may have been carrying a gun because shooting at a cop or ICE officer is preferable to being deported, as his mother said.

Like Chicago there are no other factors here, if we only had a gun control background check system none of this would have happened.

@22 -- Yes, it appears Giron was charged in August 2008 with Robbery 2 with a Deadly Weapon, and Assault 3, and pled Guilty in January 2009, and the felony sentencing procedures explicitly included routine notice of his ineligibility to possess a firearm.

ok. so what in the fuck is this guy carrying a gun for? DOES NOT justify killing him but if he decided to play ok corrall with the cops then he took his life into his own hands..

Until the footage is released it's not possible to pass judgement on the officer or the deceased. But, as always, it's times like these when racists gleefully out themselves across the internet.

On the other side of the coin -- it seems SPD is the lead investigative agency in this incident, and that would render prejudicial comments by SPD spokesperson Drew Fowler especially inappropriate.

If SPD and KCS only "release a portion of the video or possibly still frames" I will assume they're hiding something.

@27, I'm sure that, eventually, you'll be able to get your hands on the snuff film you desire. I hope they're judicious in their release of video showing the death of a human for the time being.

@38, hopefully that's a part of having officer involved shooting death's investigated by a different agency than the one that employed the officer. Kind of like how an audit regarding a crime should be conducted by an outside agency.

@39: I made no mention of wanting to watch the video.

If the cops don't release the video I would assume they are hiding something. They haven't earned the right to try to protect us from information. Saying that the video totally validates the shooting but refusing to release it can only be seen as further arrogance from a PD under federal order.

Every time I've been on a Link train with fare enforcers, they've methodically gone down and checked ALL riders. I have never seen selective enforcement. This protest is ridiculous.

These protesters are complete idiots. Wait until more evidence comes out. But the police have given a very plausible reason why he was killed. With this kneejerk response on their part, people are going to be less likely to listen to future valid complaints these protesters may make. The next time they cry 'profiling' people will say "Really? Weren't you completely fucking wrong on that shooting? Why should I believe you?"

@46 The Trayvon Martin case brought in the binary thinking on these types of altercations.

Either society profiled the innocent gun carrying law breaker, or the outlaw gangster who just wanted to be an auto mechanic deserved to die. Like gun control and abortion critical thought isn't needed to participate in the yelling.

If he pulled a gun on a LEO, he has only himself to blame for his current state of deadness. If not, obviously there's some massive cover-up. Let's see what the tape shows, but right now I'm going to go with the police version of events, absent definitive evidence otherwise.

I am not sure what a more "humane way" of fare enforcement would be.

I have experienced fare enforcement half a dozen times on light rail. The fare enforcement officers get on, and they work the car from front to rear or rear to front asking for proof of payment from everyone. You can't be more even-handed and egalitarian than that.

Those that can't prove payment are escorted from the train at the next stop and, I presume, cited at $124. Without fare enforcement, Sound Transit will lose a significant source of revenue that keeps this vital transit service for the poor and the rest of us running, with tremendous environmental benefits for all.

What was an under 21-year old kid doing with a gun on the train? To carry a loaded firearm in Washington State in any motor vehicle (a train qualifies) requires a concealed pistol license. If you are under 21, you can't get one.

The issue is not the fare. That is a deliberately misleading, mis-direction. All this kid had to do was comply with fare enforcement officers and accept a citation. King County Police would have never been called, the presence of the alleged gun, illegally carried, would never have been known.

Instead, he allegedly resists the fare enforcement officers, a cop is called, and then he allegedly he resists and brandishes a gun (Assault in the 2nd Degree), getting shot by an officer allegedly doing his sworn duty and firing to protect himself and the public in the face of an allegedly non-compliant young man with a deadly weapon.

What am I missing here Harriet? What should Sound Transit do differently to promote more humane fare enforcement? If the answer is let the scoff laws go, then you have no fare enforcement.

@39 -- Please reread more carefully. Investigation by an outside agency is appropriate. Prejudicial comment by that same agency is not appropriate.

@43 -- The shooter in this case was not an officer of the PD under federal supervision.

@ Catalina. ... and "brandishing" as a matter of law, is not putting a gun in your hand and waiving it around (although that certainly qualifies). Just raising or opening your coat to show it to someone your gun or other deadly weapon is good enough.

Brandishing is the display of a deadly weapon, which makes sense. Someone says, "Give me your cell phone" and then opens a coat to show a knife, leaves no doubt they are offering force to get compliance of the victim. It's Robbery under statute if nothing else occurs and everybody goes on their way without the Robber getting the cell phone. They are offering deadly force at that point, even though it is not in their hand.

Likewise, if you are not complying with a property owner or their agent (a fare enforcement officer) or a law enforcement officer when they are carrying out a legal right or duty and you display a deadly weapon you are also offering deadly force in resistance to their lawful effort, even if it is not in your hand. You have now given the right to those around you to use deadly force against you since if they wait for you to grab the deadly weapon you have just displayed, it may be too late for them. This is precedent, governed by hundreds of years of common sense jurisprudence.

Bottom-line: This imposes an obligation on all of us, particularly those that choose to carry lawful weapons for self-defense, to behave civilly and non-threateningly to all. Who want's to see someone die because somebody did not exercise restraint and self-control?

@49
What are you missing?
He was Latino and therefore oppressed by the white power structure.
I wrote jokingly a few days ago that this young ex-jailbird was warring on the 1% and died a martyr's death fighting against oppression of the masses (students, workers & intellectuals.)
But Ansel took it seriously.

He wasn't profiled, everyone on light rail has to produce their fair when enforcement gets on the train.

You're a real piece of shit, Ansel. As usual, your nonsense would make the worst fox news pundit proud.

fare.

The fact they haven't released the tape is the only reason why anyone would be suspicious about this.

So release the fucking tape.

They should release the tape as soon as possible. My guess is that once the investigation is done, and it becomes legally appropriate to release the tape, they will.

The spokesperson is being as clear as he can -- in a very polite way -- that those protesting this shooting are going to be left with their ass hanging in the wind once the tape comes out.

Why does anyone have any sympathy for this guy.

- Priors for armed violence
- Carrying a gun illegally
- Hanging out with others who carried guns illegally.
- Dodging fares
- Hassling an unarmed public servant
- Resists arrest
- Pulls a gun on an outnumbered cop.

The guy was a waste of bus seats.

Not a tear shed here. He made his bed and now he'll decay in it.

@56- How is it not legally appropriate to release the tape now?

The spokesperson is saying something vague that puts the blame squarely on the dead guy, but why the hell should we trust him?

This is a tragic story and I am sorry to hear about it. But I ride the light rail every day and when the fare enforcement agents come onboard, everyone gets checked. Young, old, white, black, suit & tie, shorts & t-shirt.
I don't have all the details, but I doubt this was profiling.

This is a tragic story and I am sorry to hear about it. But I ride the light rail every day and when the fare enforcement agents come onboard, everyone gets checked. Young, old, white, black, suit & tie, shorts & t-shirt.
I don't have all the details, but I doubt this was profiling.

Accusations first! Ask follow questions maybe letter ...or never. No big deal.

#Journalism

I simply stopped reading at the first comparison to Oscar Grant. Whatever transpired in SoDo is not worth considering in the same breath as the cold-blood execution of the unarmed East Bay 22-year-old.

Why can't Seattle activists ever be bothered to activate on foundations with an ounce of solidity?

I don't believe I have ever been provided with a receipt I could use to prove that I paid the fare on Link.

@64: your orca card is the receipt. I think; I've never been checked.

@65, the RFID chip in the Orca cards records both the bus number, time, and the funds balance. https://play.google.com/store/apps/detai… This app can read the cards, if your phone/tablet is capable.

I ride the light rail everyday and when the fare enforement officers come onboard they start from one end of the train to the other -- always starting with the last seats, moving forward. It's consistent, systematic, and transparent. This fellow is dead not because he failed to pay his fare, but because he chose to pull a weapon on someone who was prepared to answer his aggression. Instead of being a smart outlaw and not drawing further attention to himself he let his dumbstick to his thinking for him, he picked the fight, and there you have it. As for the demonstrators blowing smoke, I understand grief and pain, and they are seeking an audience for their sadness, while choosing to be stuck on stupid by disregarding the facts. The culture of blaming others and not properly assigning responsibility is global. The de-evolution of the human condition. The circumstances of this unfortunate incident is plain and simple.

@59 - law enforcement doesn't have to release evidence in a pending investigation. Once the investigation is done, they can release it.

And as to why you should blame the dead guy, I'd say that if you don't know the answer to that question, you're willfully burying your head in the sand. He was a convicted felon who was illegally possessing a firearm. SPD's spokesperson went way beyond the usual noncommittal statement and instead flatly stated that the video will contradict the claims of the protestors. That's indicative of someone that has seen the video, knows what it shows, and knows that the protestors and their allies are full of shit.

@65: The chip in the ORCA cards holds much more than that. Regardless, the card itself is not proof of fare payment. It is proof of possession of an ORCA card.

@49, George wrote, "All this kid had to do was comply with fare enforcement officers and accept a citation. Those are not police officers. The victim had no more obligation to comply with demands of transit staff then he would to comply with demands of anyone else.

@Phil, Actually the victim does have the an obligation to comply. By not paying the fare, he has committed Malicious Trespass. The Property owner, Sound Transit, has the right (See RCW 9A.16.020) to use reasonable force to detain him, obtain his identity, etc. Also, they have a reasonable belief at that point that the crime of Theft of Services has occurred in their presence. They have the right to use reasonable force to detain him and hold him for the police. Finally, without combing the entire RCW (I am readily familiar with the RCW I cited above) there are also references throughout Washington Law to public officials doing public duties that are not sworn law enforcement officers and to which the public has a duty to comply (e.g. a building inspector inspecting for code compliance and safety violations). Some of those may have been written into the transit statutes. Read RCW 9A.16.020 and post again if you disagree.

The moment you pull a gun on a cop you become the bad guy, automatically. 100% of the time.

You also give up your right to not be shot when you do that. I heard his cousin or some other obnoxious relative mouthing off on the radio today. Shut up already. He pulled a gun on a cop. He got what he deserved. He was in the country illegally, that's why he refused to show his ID. He was a convicted felon. It's not profiling if you're guilty. He was observed breaking the law, regardless of his race. Quit making everything a race issue because you have nothing else to stand on.

I assume the cops are not releasing the tape because A) it's an ongoing investigation and B) it shows someone being killed.

@69,
PhilM, I have the FareBot app and have "played" with it after boarding the metro bus. It shows me the bus coach number, time scanned, and amount charged. I'd expect those fancy Link stations put the same info "into" the card when you stand at the stations waiting to board. I'd imagine the transit fare enforcement guys are reading that data (you scanned before boarding that specific train within X number of minutes) from the chip.

@71: What do you suppose would lead the property owner to suspect that the victim neglected to pay the fare?

RCW 9A.16.020 enumerates some circumstances in which use of force is lawful. It says nothing of when people are required to comply with other people's demands.

@73: None of that changes the fact that riders are not provided with receipt for payment of fare. Considering all the private information stored on the card, there's no way I'm going to hand it over to some transit worker so he or she can scan it and read arbitrary data from my card.

In this country, we are to be treated as innocent until proven guilty. Sound Transit staff should leave people alone unless there is reason to suspect them of wrongdoing, and they should call the police when there is. Someone being on a train is not reason to suspect that person of fare evasion.

Phil dear, you make no sense. The swipe at the reader is the proof of payment you so dearly crave. If you don't want to show fare enforcement a card with all of your undoubtedly already public information that no ones care about, you can purchase a ticket at the ticket machine. The tickets clearly show the amount paid. Your paranoia - real, or manufactured in the interest of saving a few bucks - is no reason for the rest of us to subsidize your lifestyle. So just clutch that ticket in your dear little palm the entire time you are on the choo-choo.

And of course the transit people have a right to keep a passenger from stealing, and the authority to maintain order. After all, If you were to go to Nordstrom and try to walk out with a Hermes scarf, you would be detained by their security and handed over to the police. Your "defense" would do nothing more than give everyone a good hearty chuckle. But, as Reader's Digest says "Laughter is the best medicine"

Phil. The signs all over light rail say proof of payment is required beyond this point. If you don't comply with that demand you can be forcibly detained for trespass and to be turned over to the cops for investigation of the theft of service. So you can comply with the lawful demand to provide proof of payment to the property owner (your legal license to be on their property that defeats a trespass claim) or you can be forcibly detained as a trespasser. The law on the subject is pretty straightforward and a.judge would side.with ST.

When Fare Enforcement comes on, they scan all ORCA cards for proof of.payment.

@72- You say he pulled a gun on a cop, the cops say he pulled a gun on a cop, what does the video tape say?

We don't know. Until then I'm reserving judgement and you should too.

@76, Catalina wrote, "The swipe at the reader is the proof of payment you so dearly crave."

I don't want it unless I need to prove that someone's suspicion that I neglected to pay the fare is incorrect. Plenty of people commenting here think that showing proof of payment to transit staff is a desirable possibility. "The swipe at the reader" is not something someone can present to those staff.

Catalina continued, "If you don't want to show fare enforcement a card with all of your undoubtedly already public information"

That is not the case. Information about where I have been (e.g., where I spend my days, where I spend my nights, where I protest, where I worship, health care providers I visit, etc.) is my private business. It most certainly is not public.

"you can purchase a ticket at the ticket machine."

Agreed.

"The tickets clearly show the amount paid."

Great. Can I present that as proof that I paid the fare any time I'm asked? Can I buy a ticket ahead of time, then use it for travel days or weeks later? How can someone examining that ticket know if it has been used for previous travel or is valid for a given trip?

Typically, when one purchases a ticket good for travel at an indeterminate future date, when one presents that ticket in exchange for carriage, the ticket is collected or physically altered by someone or something (airport staff, train conductor, turnstile machine, etc.) so that one cannot reuse it.

@77, Georgie wrote, "The signs all over light rail say proof of payment is required beyond this point."

Not everyone can read those signs. Fortunately, I can.

Back to the point: What proof of payment might one carry past that point? I don't recall ever being provided with anything that I can show someone as proof that I paid for a particular trip.

Georgie continued, "If you don't comply with that demand you can be forcibly detained for trespass and to be turned over to the cops for investigation of the theft of service."

That's not a demand, it is a regulation. I believe it is one that is nearly impossible to enforce in a constitutional manner given Sound Transit's "honor system" entry procedures. Otherwise, staff could simply watch for people jumping turnstiles, and know that anyone who passed through without such an evasive maneuver paid.

Regardless, I believe that sight of me standing on the train is not reason to suspect that I have traveled beyond said point without proof of payment. And in this country, our government are supposed to leave us alone to go about our lawful business unless they have reason to suspect us of wrongdoing. We are to be treated as innocent until proven guilty.

"So you can comply with the lawful demand to provide proof of payment"

Who can lawfully make that demand? By what authority? If a police officer believes I am in violation of the law, she can investigate, and if she continues to believe that I have violated the law, she should get me, along with her evidence of such, in front of a judge.

Phil Dear, would you prefer then that we go to a NYC subway style of fare collecting, where you pay up front and you have the big gates and turnstiles?

@81: My first preference is for us to simply provide public transit as a public service to anyone who wishes to use it.

However, given that we will instead fund this public service with user fees instead of taxes, then yes, I would prefer a system of fare collection that provides for visual indication of who paid the fare and who did not. Alternatives include the unconstitutional practice of treating approximately 10% of transit riders as guilty until proven innocent. Such an alternative, as we have just witnessed, sometimes lead to violent interaction between transit staff and those who are accused of wrongdoing without a shred of evidence.

http://spdblotter.seattle.gov/2014/07/09…

Given that the video shows the dead violent felon pointing a gun at the deputy, when can we expect a public apology by the protestors to the King County Sheriff's Department?

*** crickets ***

I eagerly await Ansel's hagiography (like this post) of the unarmed fare officer who grappled with Perez-Giron while he tried to murder the Sheriff's deputy. Oh, wait, that guy was merely trying to save innocent lives rather than take them, so there's no point in celebrating him.

#84 & 86 Thank you!!!!!! As a taxpayer I want an apology from the protesters. They were wrong. They should own it.

The protesters should contribute their saved $2.50 from their fare evasion show toward Perez Giron's funeral funds or toward a deserving nonprofit agency.

The deceased appears to have pleaded guilty to armed robbery on January 5, 2009. The case is 08-1-09519-0, King County Superior Court. What makes me curious is why this less-than-exemplary illegal alien was not deported after serving his sentence?

"Who can lawfully make that demand? By what authority?"
In Canada, there is a section of the Criminal Code specifically intended to give private security guards the power to detain suspects in order to turn them over to the police. I assume that Washington has a similar statute.

The deceased appears to have pleaded guilty to armed robbery on January 5, 2009. The case is 08-1-09519-0, King County Superior Court. What makes me curious is why this less-than-exemplary illegal alien was not deported after serving his sentence?

"Who can lawfully make that demand? By what authority?"
In Canada, there is a section of the Criminal Code specifically intended to give private security guards the power to detain suspects in order to turn them over to the police. I assume that Washington has a similar statute.

Who can make that demand? The property owner, in this case Sound Transit, or their agents.

You say its unconstitutional. There has been no declaration by any court that current practices are unconstitutional and I am sure by now that somebody has challenged being stopped, having their ORCA card scanned and showing no payment was deducted from it or not being able to produce a ticket from the vending machine, and getting a ticket. I am sure by now that somebody probably hired a lawyer. No constitutional challenge has emerged. People hire lawyers to successfully fight traffic tickets that are smaller than the tickets handed out by ST. It is not an honor system. You are expected to pay, and ST personnel, periodically board a train and check everyone on it to see if they paid.

Property owners and sellers of services have lots of rights in common law and statute to challenge, stop, and even detain people on their property. Retailers employees detain suspected shoplifters all the time, and even handcuff and hold them for police. They handcuff people who refuse to leave their property and escort them to the property line routinely. So routinely, and so low-key you don't notice, unless the person detained resists and escalates (which is what happened here)

Beyond that, transit agencies have specific authority under the RCW to set fares and enforce their collection. They are also "common carriers" under RCW 9a.16.020 which gives them the right to forcibly remove people, if they are asked for payment proof, don't provide it, are disruptive or threatening to other parties, etc.

So this "not constitutional" and "lack of authority" issue you are raising is contrary to hundreds of years of common law and specific statutes in this and other states. You seem to believe that only the police have authority to investigate crimes and use force. That isn't the law. Lots of other entities have that authority and exercise it routinely. Sometimes the force is not reasonable or lacks a justification and the property owner or business owner loses a lawsuit. In some cases it crosses over into criminal territory and leads to a charge of kidnapping or assault, but its rare given the thousands of occurrences a year.

Re-read RCW 9a.16.020 through 080. Lots of authority is granted to private citizens to use reasonable force in a certain circumstances, particularly when enforcing a property right or requiring people to pay for goods or services.

Google "transit agency" and look at the specific additional authority granted to them.

Phil M,

Since you can't seem to be bothered to read and understand the laws of the society you live in, here you go. Nobody reads them all. But I would think that before you make assertions that things are happening that are not lawful or constitutional you would look it up.

RCW 81.112.210
Fare payment — Fines and penalties established — Enforcement.


(1) An authority is authorized to establish, by resolution, a schedule of fines and penalties for civil infractions established in RCW 81.112.220. Fines established by an authority shall not exceed those imposed for class 1 infractions under RCW 7.80.120.

(2)(a) An authority may designate persons to monitor fare payment who are equivalent to and are authorized to exercise all the powers of an enforcement officer, defined in RCW 7.80.040. An authority is authorized to employ personnel to either monitor fare payment, or to contract for such services, or both.

(b) In addition to the specific powers granted to enforcement officers under RCW 7.80.050 and 7.80.060, persons designated to monitor fare payment also have the authority to take the following actions:

(i) Request proof of payment from passengers;

(ii) Request personal identification from a passenger who does not produce proof of payment when requested;

(iii)(A) Issue a notice of infraction to passengers who do not produce proof of payment when requested.

(B) The notice of infraction form to be used for violations under this subsection must be approved by the administrative office of the courts and must not include vehicle information; and

(iv) Request that a passenger leave the authority facility when the passenger has not produced proof of payment after being asked to do so by a person designated to monitor fare payment.

(3) Authorities shall keep records of citations in the manner prescribed by RCW 7.80.150. All civil infractions established by chapter 20, Laws of 1999 shall be heard and determined by a district or municipal court as provided in RCW 7.80.010 (1), (2), and (4).

@91, Joe wrote, "It is not an honor system." You are mistaken. See also: "Sound Transit approves light-rail fares, but the honor system will apply," Seattle Times Staff, March 26, 2009, http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2…

Instead of gates, Sound Transit will use a sort of honor system to collect payments. People will buy tickets (or passes) outside the trains and then be subject to spot checks by transit personnel.

Retailers detaining shoplifting suspects is very different. My concern with Sound Transit is not that they detain someone when he's suspected of riding without paying. My concern is that they investigate a whole train-load of people without any reason to suspect them of wrongdoing, then detain those who simply exercise their Fifth-Amendment-protected right to remain silent.

If someone wants me to show proof that I paid, he should provide me with receipt when I pay.

If Sound Transit staff want to enforce payment, they should do it when and where the payment happens. On Sound Transit trains, that does not happen on the train during the ride.

They give everyone a receipt Phil. Those who pay at the kiosk, a ticket. Those who use.an ORCA card the.electronic equivalent that is.read with a hand held electronic reader. As far as.the 5th Amendment, did you not read the statutory language provided? You want to ride, you must show that you paid and the agency is empowered to demand that proof and to enforce if it is not.provided. You aren't just standing on the.street when anyone is.entitled to be. To stand on transit property requires a toll that is the license to be there. Lacking that you can be detained and identified so they can write you a ticket. Refuse to provide that and they involve.the police..

Portland has light rail and the same scheme for fare collection and enforcement. In all their decades of enforcement a 5th Amendment challenge has not been granted by a court, nor has that happened here. The is no 5th Amendment issue or the courts would have said so when someone challenged a citation.

You don't have a right to be on transit anymore than you have.the right to be on the 520 bridge or a fee camping area of state park. When you go to those places, courts have said you have the affirmative obligation to provide proof of payment. You can be.detained if you don't so that you can be identified and cited just like at.the side of the road.with your vehicle. Try being silent and not producing I D then and see how long you stay out of a jail cell.

@95: An ORCA card is not "the electronic equivalent" of such. I can see information on a receipt, and I can show it to someone to convey that information. I need not hand a receipt to someone so that he can use a machine to read from it arbitrary information about my travel contained invisibly within the receipt.

@96 Look, Grandpa Simpson, this is the way mass transportation works in the civilized world EVERYWHERE.

Nobody gives a shit about your absurd absolutist magical interpretation of the constitution.

Go live in a compound with SeattleBlues out in the woods somewhere and you two shut-ins can argue this nonsense with the squirrels.

I know nothing about the shooting, and I'm sorry he was killed by the police. However, this guy is/was the prime suspect in an armed robbery of a friend of mine a couple months ago. They pulled a gun on them as they were waiting for a cab to the airport and stole wallet, phones, and his MetroCard, which was recently shut off by the Seattle PD after being tracked all over Seattle. There are pictures of him using my friend's MetroCard within the last few weeks.

I see any of these guys in the pictures and videos on the train with me, I'm assuming that they're packing and I'm getting off the train to wait for the next one.

" I need not hand a receipt to someone so that he can use a machine to read from it arbitrary information about my travel contained invisibly within the receipt."

If you don't want to use an ORCA card, don't use one. Buy individual tickets instead.

"We charge fares mostly because we don't fund our system well"
The fares are minimal.

From what we know, it seems pretty obvious what went down and why it had to end the way it did. Why couldn't he have simply paid the fare? When he pulled the gun, what did he possibly think was going to happen?

This libertarian-style Republican is actually heartened by the common sense respect for law and order being expressed on the website of a notoriously left-wing, narcissistic, and uninformed rag. I generally dislike public transit in part because of incidents like these. (I lived in NYC in the late '80s and Washington DC in the '90s. I know of what I speak/write.) Prepare for more of this, folks.

And Phil, believe it or not, problems don't exist because everything in life isn't free. Pay your fare and you won't get in trouble. Don't like paying fares? Find an alternate ride to your next protest.