Take the $63,000 a year job in Canton, OH and you can get a $110,000 mortgage and live like a king.

#2

On a serious note (referring to #1)

.Net/Web Developer
Work Type: Full Time
Employment Type: Direct Hire
Compensation: From $65000.00 to $100000.00 USD Per Year
Location: North Canton OH

https://kelly.secure.force.com/Candidate…

#2

On a serious note (referring to #1)

235 Bachtel St SW, North Canton, OH 44720
3 beds, 1 bath, 1,352 sqft

For Sale, $110,000
Est. Mortgage:$421/mo

Charming 3 bedroom home situated in the heart of North Canton! Enjoy your summers outside on the new front porch or relax under the covered back patio. Newly refinished hardwood floors flow throughout the welcoming living room featuring a w/b fireplace w/ heatilator & formal dining room. The spacious kitchen offers ample countertop space, newer hardwood laminate floors & all newer appliances are included! Upstairs you will find 3 bedrooms w/ newer carpet & ceiling fans. The bathroom…

http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/235-Ba…

Bailo, please FUCK OFF.

Take one of those jobs and go away. DIAF.

#5

1014 Mcdowell St NE, Canton, OH 44721
2 beds, 1 bath, 1,425 sqft

For Sale $128,900
Est. Mortgage:$493/mo

A charming brick ranch built in 1950. Many updates to the interior and exterior of the home. New carpet, vinyl floors, ceramic tile, resurfaced cherry cabinets in the kitchen. Lot size is almost 1/2 acre with a vinyl fenced in back yard and storage shed.

http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1014-M…

At least once a year, whether you're a full-time, permatemp, or intrepid alternative weekly newspaper reporter, you should get out and interview for another job just to get a handle on a) what your skills are worth and b) whether you have the skills yet for what you really want to do or need to keep developing.

You don't have to WANT a new job, you don't have to TAKE a new job offer, you just need to get out there and get a fresh perspective.

LOL at Bailo posted bogus job and housing ads and taking them at face value.

8. But if a company you apply or interview with checks your references, then word could get back to your boss that you're job hunting. Depending on how much you value your current job, this could be a problem. It's akin to the damage a credit inquiry can do to your credit rating. Frivolously job hunting could get you into trouble at your present job.

SROTU @1, 3, 4, 7, yeah... but then you'd have to live in Canton, OH.

There are other considerations in life besides the paycheck.

I'm in a similar situation and I feel their pain, temp/contract work is for the birds.

Bailo, don't stop. You're cracking me up.

The Seattle Times article has more context and links to memos. Microsoft is doing this to protect intellectual property, but vendors could still work on Microsoft projects as long as they didn't need access to the corporate network or enter a Microsoft building.

On what? TechNet wiki pages? Tracking forum q&a for something? Maybe vendors could access an extranet or private cloud.

When I worked at Microsoft as a v-dash I had paid sick/vacation/holidays, fair market wage and medical. If you don't have those things at working a contract at Microsoft then the problem is your agency and not Microsoft.

@17, most agencies will show you a spreadsheet showing your highest wage and the per hour wage cost of the benefits and let you choose a la carte.

cut and dried.

10, checking references is almost always the last step in a successful interview. If they ask for references and your not interested in the job, just say so. No one will get in touch with your current employer.

@16: "Microsoft is doing this to protect intellectual property"

You can't seriously believe this. It has fuckall to do with intellectual property. Vendors get less access to skunkworks projects, very little to non-test source.

@21: I believe most agencies can give you the ~option~ to have benefits, just at a reduced rate.

The shittier overseas-run ones will offer you no benefits at a terrible rate first, and they get first crack at the bids (therefore get them filled more quickly). The slightly better agencies will offer you their rates + benefits, and possibly offer you more if you wish to decline benefits.

"In fact, since MSFT controls virtually every aspect of the vendor's work activity (providing the space, equipment, software, etc.) it can be argued that MSFT should also be considered the employer and provide associated benefits."

You might think, however the agency "rents" your space in the building, equipment is often/usually provided from the agency, and other steps are taken to limit the perception of "employer" status.

Everyone I have met who works or worked for MS (and that's more than a few people) hated the place and could not wait to get out of there. That's FTEs and contractors alike.

@24: Even from the lower-tier agencies, you can (at a reduced payrate) receive crappy benefits.

"I also know for a fact that everything is provided by MSFT and we are directed by MSFT FTE's. All of the equipment we use is provided by MSFT: desks, chairs, lamps, PCs, tablets, and software. MSFT controls and directs our work so they can be considered common law employers. This was the crux of the case it settled in the 90's."

For a fact, your agency pays MS an amount to "lease" your desk, space, and office supplies behind the scenes to avoid that perception. MSFT hasn't forgotten the lawsuit one bit.

And vendors are never considered "temporary fulltime" which is quite an oxymoron.

This article seems to provide a useful explanation of the differences between contingent (CSG) and fulltime (FTE) staffing-

http://blogs.msdn.com/b/eric_brechner/ar…

@20, not really, but as long as they're saying that -- it is possible for vendors and FTE's to use Windows Azure private cloud technology to collaborate on projects. Vendors could create virtual machines in the cloud using the templates provided by FTE's that have the operating system and products they need to work with.

@27: Yes? Of course CSGs and FTEs both use VMs regularly for test automation with the exclusion of some hardware exclusive or finicky manual tasks. I still don't understand the point you're trying to make. CSGs already have to go through hoops to get access to restricted builds and way-pre release software. That's the SDEs and eventually SDETs' duty.

@28: I'm not going through hoops, I'm thinking of workarounds. There are still numerous value tasks that vendors can do on released bits. In some cases, the VMs could have pre-release bits as it would be controlled and the corporate network would not be involved, and the NDA for vendors always applies.

@29: Yes, what are you talking about?, though This move has nothing to do with corporate Opsec and is an attempt to prune "low-value" employees. Your musings involve trying to solve a problem that does not exist.

Ach, "what are you talking about, though?"

@31: Excuse me, my "musings" are technical guesses at a loophole Microsoft has provided in regard the mandatory 6 month break after 18 months. Granted, in all practicality, it appears to shoot down contiguous vendor contracts longer than 18 months. However, given that some CSG work could be done using the cloud that does not touch the corporate network or involve access to campus buildings is worth exploring.
Sentiments and dispositions be as they may, Microsoft will not change its policy. Other tech corporations are taking notice.
Even though I'm a current vendor, I am able to look past the pain and see the long range benefit that Microsoft is doing for the industry and for good jobs. Your sentiments and dispositions may vary.

I spent two days in a MSFT testing closet with 5 other people who were proud of their 100hr/wk timesheets. Between the crippling headache caused by 50 PC's in a tiny room and an obvious workplace harassment suit waiting to happen, I couldn't run away from that place fast enough.

@32: The mandatory break is not and has never been for the purposes of proprietary data but to enforce the temporary status of contingent staff. Increasing the break is an effort to encourage attrition.

It has nothing to do with leaks of builds, code, etc which have been generally been traced back to FTEs, not Vendors.

This is an attempt to destroy the current system of contractors in place. Why make excuses for anything else?

I've hired a small army of contractors over the years. Maybe I'm missing something here, but the 18 month rule has been in force at many companies for quite some time now. We've been following it since at least 2010. I'm surprised it's taken this long for MS to get with the program given that they were a party to the original lawsuit that established the rule in the first place. The motivation for the rule was that companies couldn't set up permatemp, no-benefits positions; so tenure is the dividing line. Employment beyond that limit is on a by-exception basis.

It's an IRS thing.

I would love the opportunity to work for a company that treated me like that if I got paid 40k/year

@34: Your problem is that you think that it will or should change. It won't. They're changing the model. Adapt or complain, your choice.

This sucks and all, but the guy in the article has an MBA and 30 years of international business experience, and can't think of anything he can do as an entrepreneur? Maybe he's not all that valuable.

Actually, Microsoft just laid the golden goose it will later regret. Sorry for those not technically or business savvy to see it. It spells millions, if not billions.

For vendors that is.

@37: "Your problem is that you think that it will or should change. It won't. They're changing the model. Adapt or complain, your choice."

Right, I'm just bickering about specific motives. In the short term these contracts, even v- can be helpful. Now, the combination of them and agencies just seems a learned helplessness.

@35: "The motivation for the rule was that companies couldn't set up permatemp, no-benefits positions; so tenure is the dividing line."

The "benefits" in question, IIRC, were stock and not health insurance. They took until now because Vendors remain essential to MSFT's daily operation, and I doubt they've thought this fully through. I'll be fascinated to rubberneck how they plan on divesting from contract labor and push all those tasks to FTEs.

I like your reference to Ageism (as in like 'race-ism'). I am in technology, also with an BSCS in COM Sci and Math, and an MBA with honors from NYU Stern with dual majors in Finance and IT. I was hired by Fidlty (not to mention names) 9 years ago as an FTE with the lure that they had great benefits and never laid anyone off, and also I would be on track to be a manager. Then I was temporarily laid off with several others in 2008, and then rehired after 6 months, but as temps in entry level positions. I was new to the world of 'no benefits'. I am treated like a contractor, because I was rehired through a company Fidlty fully owns, but which has a different name, and which handles contractors, but I still get a W2. I have the same job I had as an FTE, same boss etc.. but no 401K matching, no xmas bonus, no promotions or raises, no paid holiday or vac days, no comprehensive insurance (their insurance is illegal under Obama and we are told we will be getting new policies 'minimum essential' but only for me and not my spouse). In New York, comprehensive insurance for my family, as an individual (with w2) would cost more than my salary (just talking premiums atre $5000 plus a month). I had to start an LLC to give myself group rates, and it is still $1700 a month for the 2 spouses and two kids. That is more than a third of my takehome, more than my mortgage and RE taxes combined. It sucks a big D**K.The other thing that sucks is I am not used to being cataloged as old. I have not been able to get an single interview or response from any head hunters once they find out I am in my 60s. I am smarter, quicker, more educated, more experienced than 90% of the kids in their 20s and 30s, and I have plenty of good work ethic. It is the age thing. Age prejudice kicks right in as soon as they look at you, or detect you are as old as their parents. I am counting on my knowledge and skills to build up my own retirement. I had 134000 in my IRA in 2006, I have taken out 160,000 already and still have 240,000 in there. I am very very good at investing and at making art discoveries on the side. In 1997 I borrowed 70000 and bought some letters which I resold 3 of late for 270K, and then spent 97000 on paintings and antiques, which I have sold some for a total of 225K. This is not something everyone can do. I studied Fine Arts as a major. I still have a painting that should be worth 150K. You might have different skills and knowledge you can make use of. I rented out my house to get more income. New times. The Corporations are dumbing down the domestic labor force with a steamroller. The age of Full time employment is ending. Our economy is being heavily diluted by the flow of jobs overseas to sweatshops. It ain't pretty. These days I would recommend not having kids, developing a side income of some kind. Get ready to retire or be laid off anytime. I recommend starting some kind of business of your own.