Comments

101
He clearly says he doesn't always get off.
102
I should rephrase. It's strongly implied that he doesn't always get off.
103
@97 - Philo- i don't think your advice is bad. And to be perfectly honest, i'm not sure what my advice even is... though i think is subscribe to the notion that he should work on loving himself a bit more before deciding what he can and cannot put up with (some of what finch was saying in post 60). I guess i perhaps read too much into some of what he says.... in that it SEEMS like he is saying she doesnt really care if its not working for him.... but then, i cant even really tell if it IS or IS NOT working for him... and if it really can all be taken at face value... and he simply wants to know what a bj feels like... then she should take one for the team... i really dont think that's a lot to ask.... unless of course there is a reason larger than "because i don't want to." I do lots of things i don't WANT to do for my partner. Admittedly...none of those things are sexual...because i am more than game to try absolutely anything in that realm... but many of the things i do take way longer and are way more taxing than 20minutes of head. I also see her interest in trying sex with a woman while also being totally not GGG with him as a bit of a paradox.... unless she thinks sex with a woman will simply be her lying back and getting serviced...which is certainly possible i guess. I just assume wanting to try sex with a woman means a willingness to go down on a woman, which kinda extinguishes the oral sex is icky in my mouth complaint.... unless she prefers the idea of pussy in her mouth over penis...which brings me full circle

I have a problem with people who won't just fess up and admit they are selfish.... but instead hide behind all kinds of other reasons... like Republicans... :)
104
ISex should not be a zero sum game, giving pleasure should increase the pleasure of both participants.

"You're already getting off" should not mean "I don't need to do anything differently." LTRs can not survive on tit for tat.
105
I'd forgotten she was bi-curious. Expresses interest in women, and won't touch her boyfriend's dick?

Isn't that pretty much what a lesbian is?
106
Well Chairman, when you've sucked cock for 20 minutes, come back and tells us how it was.
Your jaw a little sore?
One for the team?
This woman doesn't like this man enough to taste his cock.
If he's prepared to put up with that status quo, then that's his choice.
If I was him, I'd go find a woman who is into uncircumcised cock, and into him.
107
haha lava. Tell you what... you run your tongue in every conceivable direction non stop for 20 minutes and you tell ME how going down on a man is harder on the jaw. Why are people so hung up on exact reciprocation anyway? I can't suck my partner's cock... she simply doesn't have one... and she can't lick my pussy for the same reason.... does this mean we should forego both? I've spent well over an hour going down on a partner in the past... and she was "almost there" from about the 5 minute mark. Me? If she tells me to come from the bj when she starts (and i am not wondering if she is about to straddle me...) i can finish in 5 minutes. So maybe i should get 12 BJs per every time i go down on her?

I definitely see validity in the rest of what you wrote. And it would be hard to feel sexy when your partner is turned off by touching you with hands or mouth.
108
Chairman, It's not about endurance.
It's about Pleasure.
You don't have to follow rules, just follow the moment.
You want to be tasting your woman for 20 minutes, enjoy. But if you want to taste her for five minutes or not at all; also good.
Prescribed love making can get very rigid.

109
well now you are answering something that wasnt asked. I was responding only to your "go suck cock first..." request....

"Prescribed love making" as you put it...is most definitely not for me. I prefer spontaneity based on pleasure... mine, hers, and both.... in no particular order

if you (or anyone else) missed today's SLLOTD.... its a good read... a letter from a historian essentially asking Dan to stop misusing the word Medieval when it comes to describing sexually oppressive nations, etc.
110
When men dress their women top to toe in black. Sounds medieval.
111
Hmm.. she could be selfish or maybe she just isn't comfortable with herself enough sexually. I would like to point out though that just because she makes it seem like she's getting off multiple times doesn't mean that she really is.

I interpreted his comment "then she just sort of takes it until she gets off a few times unless I do first," to mean that she rides him after he eats her out. It's possible is that she considers the work she does on top to be equal to the work he puts in for her orally. In that case, she wouldn't see herself as being selfish.
112
Chairman - Why are people so hung up on exact reciprocation anyway?
I'm not sure who is hung up on exact reciprocation, but there is a lot of talk about fairness. Fair treatment is pretty universally expected. I think that Lava had the right idea, everyone has boundaries, and you seem to have boundaries of no-gay, but I don't think her question was fair. Instead, say you were with a bi woman who happily had threesomes with you, but got really curious about watching you with a guy instead, just had to know what it was like once. Would you take one for the team, just to show her what it was like for 20 minutes? Or would you perhaps prefer to outsource that one?

Other people's feelings are more important than what you want them to do. Whether you want them to give you head, or just listen to what you have to say to them. Human behavior will be constantly surprising until you get this.
113
@15: "She just doesn't want to."
Well, I just don't want to clean the bathroom either. But every so often I do it.
114
Well Philo.... i hardly think that analogy holds up. If we go with the notion that oral sex comes standard... then supporting this guy getting a BJ is pretty innocuous.

Believe me, i understand human behavior well enough to rarely be surprised.

And for the record, if my partner desperately wanted to see me with a guy, i'd listen and likely acquiesce. But, it would need to be a partner like this LW is describing (i.e. seemingly lifelong), i wouldn't do it to appease a hookup. I don't give any advice i wouldn't do myself.

The comment about reciprocation was general...in that i didnt think Lava deserved to be picked on directly for that one. But, i have seen countless times in the comments here where someone will say "suck a dick first, then you can run your mouth about it..." Just tired of hearing it, i guess.... its such a cop-out
115
"She just doesn't want to" seems to me to be a conflation between Consent is King and being a spoiled brat.

I get that we are all entitled to draw the line somewhere and have our own personal limits. We are entitled to give an absolute "No" for whatever reason we choose. That's Consent is King. But if you want a real relationship with someone (not a doormat), your right to say "no" has to be tempered with thoughtfulness and fairness for the other person, whose desires *should* be important to you. Sometimes you do things that you don't necessarily feel 100% into, and that's okay, because sometimes they do, too. This stops short of doing something that you find to be an extremely unpleasant ordeal--that's too much--but it certainly goes to sometimes enduring a bit of *mild* discomfort or displeasure for the person you care about.

This guy's been abused so long that a selfish bitch seems like a prize compared to the raving lunatics he used to date. This woman is a fan of Savage Love and she won't even touch a penis without prodding? She's got issues. I don't know if it's trauma she won't divulge, a closeted orientation (lesbian or asexual), or she's just a terrible spoiled brat, but she's got something going on that needs to be addressed.
116
Chairman @107 I was struck by your statement "you run your tongue in every conceivable direction non stop for 20 minutes and you tell ME how going down on a man is harder on the jaw"

Pro tip: If you are running your tongue in every conceivable direction - it's no surprise (to me at least) that it takes you so long to bring a woman to orgasm. Since you can't use my method (having your own vagina and knowing how it feels) you would probably benefit from studying a good anatomical diagram of the clitoris. A quick Google search found this: http://blog.museumofsex.com/the-internal…
117
@116 - JibeHo - i guess i deserve that for being flippant. Please don't attempt to correct my methods. Its patronizing. I do whatever my partner wants me to do....and i pay very close attention to her body language, her moans, her words, etc. I wasn't trying to be literal with what i wrote. I was trying to make a point.. And not that it matters... but i have had many partners who asked me to mix it up with my tongue on their clit...but "just don't stop".... Some women can come quickly from oral... some take a long time... some can't come that way at all. I never said that all my partners take an hour.... that was just the one women... and the point i was trying to make was that I did it anyway...even though my jaw was sore, my tongue was tired.. and admittedly... i'd get a little bored after that long
118
Chairman - I apologize for jumping to conclusions, it's just that I've been on the receiving end of some extremely inept male attempts at cunnilingus and your "method" sounded painfully familiar. Kind of wandering around aimlessly with no understanding of where the female erogenous zones are. By far the most useless "tip" I've seen for men is the instruction that they draw the alphabet with their tongue. Ugh...
119
No worries Jibe. :) The only times i have had trouble down there is if my partner simply didn't know her body and wasn't communicative (whether by words, moans, or body language)....I'm sure you've been on the giving end of that at least once. My preference is when the woman gets different (but welcome) stimuli from clit, g spot, etc... that is the most fun... but i have certainly had partners who wanted my tongue to be a poor substitute for a vibrator... (never understood that one... lets just get the vibrator and i'll augment it... ) lol

I've heard the alphabet one... but never tried it... it just sounded counterintuitive and stupid. I remember overhearing some teenage girls (when i was a teenager) telling one of the less experienced girls to treat a BJ like an icrecream cone... ummm..... no thank you.
120
Ahhh...the alphabet technique. I first remember hearing about this little tidbit as a "pre-sex with others" teenager while watching the exciting ramblings of Sam Kinison on TV. Along with other gems like "don't grab your woman's head while she's going down on you cause you don't want her to puke the lobster bisque all over your lap that you bought her to blow you in the first place" and "YOU BITCHHHH!!!!!, YOU TWO TIMING WHORE!!!!!" (ah the memories) came the advice of "if you really want her come draw the alphabet with your tongue".

That is some advice that I never forgot (amen reverend!), its been an arrow in my sexual quiver for my entire sex life and I've had very positive results using it. Not something to start out with, but when I have felt that she's getting close and just needs a little extra push I get over the edge i've gone to the alphabet and more often than not its has provided the characters needed to create a splendid sonnet of screams and spasms!

Give it a try sometime boys and girls!
121
@120 - Uhhh, no. It is far too easy to tell when someone is trying that alphabet nonsense and it completely and totally turns me off. And I mean like a switch being flipped in my head. I sit up and say "Nope! We're done now. Move along, move along."
122
I thought we'd put the "cunnilingus is harder than fellatio is harder than cunnilingus ..." argument to bed a few weeks ago. In case we hadn't, I'll add my 2 cents to the fray as a giver of both - it depends on the specific anatomical details, sensitivities and preferences of the recipient, as well as the sexual connection between the recipient and me..

I have to admit that when I was a neophyte giver, it took me a while to work into liking it, both for dick and for pussy. And even now, after close acquaintance with (probably) more than my fair share of dicks, and a reasonable share of pussies, I will occasionally feel less enthusiastic than I'd like, because it does involve effort. However, in the context of my current monogamous OS relationship, I enjoy both the physical sensations of giving head (I'm in control of depth) and the way it makes my partner squirm, arch, and often, come. I know he wishes I could take it deeper, and I wish I didn't have such a sensitive gag reflex, but we milk it for all it's worth ;)

Having written that, when I think that Whelp's partner is not even willing to touch his dick with her hand, I just feel sad.
123
Chairman; how is that a cop out?
I don't want to feel obliged to suck a man till he reaches orgasm. I want the experience of touching a cock with my mouth, to engage me erotically.
Tell me how getting my jaw sore, has anything to do with my erotic nature?
124
I don't want any preconceived ideas imposed on my erotic plays. I don't expect a man to go down
on me till I orgasm.
it's the expectation, I'm on about.
125
Still thinking; yes. That's how it needs to be. One enjoying the experience, enjoying one's partner's responses. Seeing where it goes.
Not a predetermined outcome.
126
@114 Chairman - I agree that acting gay is more taboo than giving oral, if that's what you mean by "oral sex comes standard" so my analogy is no good. I don't think that people have any specific sex duty other than what they agree to do together, if you are saying that it's a duty to return at least some oral sex. I would probably dump a partner who would happily receive but not give, unless they made that clear the first time I went down, but I wouldn't call them a bad person. But if I accepted one way oral at first then changed my mind and really wanted to receive too, I'd probably demand to outsource it or leave. Although, I don't get into completely monogamous relationships, so I'm not sure how much this opinion is worth.

I do think it's a personal duty to demand a fair deal, if not a good deal. If my theory is incorrect, and she simply doesn't care about being fair, he would be wise to dump her.
127
@philo - yes....that is what i meant with the analogy. And lava, your posts sometimes confuse me.... and i was not understanding that all you were talking about is expectation. When i say she should take one for the team, and you reply "suck a dick first..." (obviously not your actual words, but you understand), THAT is a cop-out...since you know i can't readily do that. Its a way to shut down the argument without conceding anything at all.

There are intertwining and contradictory statements in my posts at times. I sometimes flesh out my arguments WHILE writing them. For clarity: i don't know if she is a bad person or not. I would call her selfish (based on the limited information) but i won't go so far as to say all selfish people are bad people. They just aren't my kinda people. I also don't personally have the expectation that a BJ will be given to completion, but i DO have the expectation that once sex begins, both me and my partner will get off; that my partner won't just stop mid-fuck and say, "eh, not really into this" and walk out of the bedroom. I see some comments here sometimes where posters will say "she has every right to stop if she wants to stop". I can't refute that. Its true, she can do whatever she wants. I, in turn, am entitled to think her behavior sucks. Does that mean that if she broke down in tears over something, i would expect her to still finish me? No. There are always qualifiers.
128
@Philo- your theory (if i am understanding it all) is that she thinks PIV is for him and cunnilingus is for her. Right? So in her head, its fair. That wouldn't work for me. And if it worked for him, i doubt he'd be writing into SL. I hope he doesn't underestimate the hit his self-esteem will take over the long haul if she continues to refuse to touch him.
129
If this is her second lover, I sincerely doubt she's getting off the way he says she is. I can count on one hand the women I know who were orgasming with a partner at that stage, if at all.

He's in for a rude awakening.
130
Every dentist I've gone to has complained about my tiny mouth (SO ironic) & gag reflex. After reading way too much, I've discovered that deep throat will never happen. All that said, I love to give blow jobs. I just have to be more creative.
I do see the "if you love her, you wouldn't force it", side, but it's not like he's asking for a blow job every day, for the rest of his life. If it's just once, I still think she should, literally, suck it up!
131
Just those words Chairman. Take one for the team. How apertizing. Which team?
I am talking of oral sex being seen, by/ for men, as a predetermined outcome. BlowJob. Rather than an in the moment erotic expression between people.
thats been my point from up thread.
Take that predetermined outcome away, and let it be what the participants feel.
I still contend this LWs woman, doesn't deeply accept this man. Because she won't Love his cock . He should leave her. Stop accepting less than.
132
The team of him and her. The partnership. And i agree...he should leave. His self-esteem seems fragile enough without her... and if he grows healthy later in life... seems they will grow apart...
133
Chairman, I don't think/ feel/ have experience of, seeing oral sex as some equal exchange.
When a man goes down on a woman, he's touching her body.
With a woman, she takes a part of the male body, into her mouth.
As you've pointed out before- my ideas/ experiences, come from a different time. And I'm glad they did. Cause I wouldn't have accepted every man I had sex with, I wouldn't have accepted his cock in my mouth.
Nor expected casual fucks to go down on me, either. But their choice.
For me, I needed / need to have a deep connection with the man to go past touching him with my hand.
But you know, times are different.
134
I could make the argument that going down on a man is akin to sucking a large finger... i.e. skin in the mouth...whereas going down on a woman, one must accept fluids into their mouth. (assume neither person is at the point of orgasm). But...I am NOT making that argument, because i see no point to it. i would never bother trying to make one like the other.or claim that a man who goes down on a woman is somehow giving more of himself than the reverse. We have different equipment... different mechanics are required. Imparting higher meaning on one over the other is egocentric and pointless. I am willing to see them as being different, yet the same...without feeling like i am shortchanging anyone. Like you, I need a connection too...and don't just go down on everyone, nor expect them to do it for me. In many ways, it can be more intimate than piv sex.

"Cause I wouldn't have accepted every man I had sex with, I wouldn't have accepted his cock in my mouth. " You are drifting away from the main conversation with this.... which is that THIS LW sees this relationship as potentially lifelong. If he wrote in to complain that a random girl he was hooking up with refused to go down on him... i think the comments section would be entirely different.... I know my comments would be.
135
Chairman, before I read you comment, just wanted to add.
The men I came of age with, didn't stick their cock in your face and tell you to suck it.
This expectation has grown over these last many years, and I think it's a crossover from the gay community.
Gay culture in the 70s, just starting to gain some traction of acceptance. The two worlds, of gay and straight men, were seperate.
136
Yes. It is somehow more intimate.
I find touching a cock with my mouth, a very intimate experience. But it is different , to take a cock into one's mouth, than to lick a pussy.
A man can exert a lot of power there, forcing energy into a woman. Very vulnerable position for a woman to be in.
137
Yes I got off topic. Yet I was saying again, that because this woman won't touch this man, it's obvious she Doesn't have a strong connection to him.
Therefore, he's not seeing the truth of her neglect.
138
I wish you could retract the gay part of comment 135 (like literally delete it). I think it is a careless thought....and you aren't really a careless person. I have never heard of a stereotype of gay men simply putting their cocks in front of their partners and saying suck it. If you want to assign a catalyst, stick with the proliferation of modern porn (starting with 70s Hustler, etc) and the de-emphasis of decent manners....
139
Why should I delete it?
No. I'm saying straight men do that.
Gay men, they have a whole different way of being together, I assume.
I'm saying straight men stick their dicks in women's faces. That's the impression I get. Casual fucks and all.
And one for the team, just doesn't sit right for me in relation to sex/ love making.
In relation to all the other areas of couple hood- yes. Team work. Compromise. Etc.
With sex, it's not a team. It's two seperate people bringing their erotic charge to the other. That charge, fragile like a candle light, can be extinguished if one doesn't treasure the mystery of that charge.
140
The erotic charge stuff is too Earth Mother mystical for me. But i don't begrudge you feeling that way. ;) To each their own.

141
Chairman - I don't think that anyone advised this writer to just get over his desire to experience getting oral for once. I don't like how so many people are telling her to just get over her feelings about giving him head, though. They are both bullying statements.

And I don't think you can tell whether she is less inclined to giving oral than you are to acting gay. You can't really figure out who feels worse from outside. She may be happier with someone who has already explored oral and can take or leave it. I think she should let him get it from someone who wants to give it, but I also understand her feelings might be different in this area. I am not advising her to just get over it, grow up, ova up, or otherwise attempting to socialize her by shame. I do think that you should warn your partner when you're unable to reciprocate, but most of Slog seems to disagree. I think a man who wouldn't be pegged should disclose before anal, and a woman who won't take pain should disclose before whipping or clamping her partner etc. And I hope that this gf disclosed that she wouldn't return oral the first time he went down.

Really, they should figure out how to talk about sex or break up. I'm sure there are lots of solutions they could find if they learned to negotiate. Hard to tell what the problem is from here. "She is evil" is one possibility, but not the only one. It is easiest to assign a perp and victim to any conflict, though.
142
Wtf, Chairman? Too Earth Mother..
Think about it before you dismiss it. I'm just talking about that part of each of us, that is/ carries our erotic self.
You know that part? It's not about ten minutes on the pussy; 20 minutes on the cock.
143
omg.... you get riled up at the most unexpected (by me) things. Yes, too earth mother for me. Unless you are trying to convince me that "erotic self" is a scientific term.... and that a flame of passion contains exactly 4 btu.

Don't mash all my commentary together and decide that i somehow think sex should be doled out in timed increments. Most of those comments were intentionally absurd, meant to shutdown the ridiculous tit for tat commentary that was going around.

Peace lava.... peace. :)
144
too bad today's letter is so boring....
145
Mr. Ven,
I give up. Please, explain to me what is FTWL and LMB. I have consulted the Google multiple times over the years here at Slog, and the best it gives me is "From Teeside With Love", of which i can make no sense. My apologies for my obtuseness. And thanks.
146
SfR - go to urbandictionary.com and you'll find the answers you are looking for.... MrVen dislikes directly swearing... so he uses replacements... and i gather, since WTF is the more common version of FTWL... his aversion extends even to these....
147
Well, i had indeed pegged lmb correctly, then. Thank you, Chairman.
148
. And peace to you my brother, Chairman. But it still ain't no Mother Earth term.
And no. I wasn't implying you were into doling out sex by number. Kisses.
149
Erotic self is a scientific term. Those the only terms with validity, Chairman?
Scientific Ones.
Well if it's science you want.
How bout a fat, wet pussy and a hard erection? Science would show you, that people in this state, are in the grip of their erotic selves.
150
@139: "I'm saying straight men stick their dicks in women's faces. That's the impression I get."

One will occasionally run into a man that whines that he wants sex or a blowjob, but I blamed that on indulgent parents. You know, the toddler cries for a candy bar in the checkout, mom buys him one to shut him up, and he learns "cry for what I want = get what I want." It's just a reflection of a general lack of maturity because they weren't raised right. Almost every man I've encountered who acts like a brat when it comes to sex was raised by an overindulgent mother who would do anything to make her precious son happy. Think Cersei on Game of Thrones raising Joffrey. The behavior usually spills over beyond the bedroom.
151
@145
FTWL - "For those who like" (short for: "For those who like that sort of thing" which in turns comes from: 'For those who like that sort of thing, said Miss Brodie in her best Edinburgh voice, That is the sort of thing they like.'
― Muriel Spark, The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie)

LMB: "Laissez-moi Barf" (mangled French for: makes me gag.)

152
Re: Men sticking their dicks in women's faces and demanding to be blown to orgasm: Well, I've had a lot of sex with a lot of men, and I can only think of a tiny, tiny fraction of men who just stuck their dicks in my face. Though I've given many blowjobs to completion, I have never had anyone voice an objection to a shift in the action, should I decide to make the blowjob just one of the fun things that are on the menu for the encounter. Some of the men I've been with have expected that the blowjob will end in their orgasming, and generally that has happened, but if for some reason, that's not the way it played out (say my jaw just got too achy-tired and I had to stop), they didn't complain or sulk--and they still got off.

No doubt some men are selfish dicks. But certainly not all are.
153
Yes nocute, I was dramatising the image a little.
Good to know the men you been with have not been at the high end of this continuum.
It's funny though. The attitudes to touching a man's cock with one's mouth, has a lot of energy around it. Much more energy than a man licking pussy.
Still contend it is an important gesture of love and acceptance.
And it is a pleasure.

154
@Gui - @150 Almost every man I've encountered who acts like a brat when it comes to sex was raised by an overindulgent mother. @115 She's got issues. ...trauma ... orientation ... or she's just a terrible spoiled brat
So if a guy is a brat, it's his mother's fault. I'm sure the fathers were pinnacles of parenthood who married down. But girls should take responsibility for being brats. And a brat is a person whose behavior you don't like. Not giving enough in bed, according to your rulebook. Got it.
155
back to the actual letter...the LW wants to experience a 'great' BJ but stay monogamous . the only way to even come close to that is to get an AutoBlow or Fleshlight and pretend its the real thing. http://www.autoblow2.com

i think he should renegotiate the term monogamy and go out and get the real thing. its not that difficult to do, either professionally or from a new partner. he'll need 2 or 3 to really get a good feel for it.
156
@119: You've got it backwards, a vibrator is a poor substitute for a tongue.
157
There are many women who reject bjs outright, but I've never had an intense conversation with one, so I can't speak to her side of the matter. I do wonder if this woman has watched blow jobs in porn meant for a female audience? I can't help but suggest that she get a sense of the many things a blow job can be before dismissing the act entirely. Particularly if she is familiar, you might also want to ask her if she'd try and simulate a bj - with props, and/or while you're blindfolded. There are ways to get creative, and perhaps get her more comfortable.
In the end, BLOW, it would serve you to let it go if she's drawing a line in the sand, because, respect is the most valuable commodity and all.
158
Can I really be the first commenter to address BLOW's partner directly? Although they both probably stopped reading a while ago, I want to give it a try. You have to use your words. You have to come up with a better reason than "I don't want to." Does his unit squick you out or what? Is the expectation the problem? Too much pressure? Are you just going along with the sex to keep him happy because you like the company? You don't have to tell us but you really should tell him. If you can't suck the dick and can't give a reason, expect that he'll leave soon.
It's ok for you to say no but it's reasonable for him to ask why.
159
I apologize if someone else already suggested this, but why not get one of the Fleshlights that is a mouth opening? No, it's not going to be the same, but it probably will be great, and it might enable your girlfriend to simulate the experience in a way she is comfortable with.

I completely understand wanting to get to try a fairly standard sex-act in your life, but if neither of you want to go elsewhere to have this desire met, then I'm not sure what else you can do.

No one should EVER perform a sex act they don't want to do. I think you should perhaps attempt the tried and true "disclose, downplay, drop".

It looks like a lot of commenters are saying that she should talk with him about why she doesn't want to. I know I would want to know more about it if I were him, but I also know that the only sex acts I have ever flat-out refused to do were related to traumatic experiences and I didn't have any desire to go into it further. I think that you could invite her to a low-pressure conversation about it by simply saying "I won't ask about it again, because I respect the choices you make, but if you ever are comfortable talking more with me about why you don't want to, I will always be happy to listen and promise to be supportive and understanding"... or whatever.

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