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800 Maynard Ave S, Suite 200, Seattle, WA 98134
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That's basically saying that straight men and women can never be friends if a tension ever exists that's not acted upon. I've got great male friends who were once attracted me and nobody is stringing anybody along. They think I'm worth it to have in their lives even knowing that they'll never date me. I don't see the problem if JFJ's guy can handle it.
This is a useful distinction, because if SOFAGAL is freaking out for a tiny stain on her sofa to the point that she might dump the poor slob already, she sure isn't going to be nice about it.
SOFAGAL: if your boyfriend is too freaked out to tell you or even himself, maybe it would be a nice thing to realize that the crap on your sofa isn't such a big deal. Anything else is likely to pull more crap out of him - metaphorically and literally.
SNSS: ouchies!
JFJ: Again, be upfront and honest. If not, then relationship karma will bite you in the ass.
After talking to some of my co-workers, they seemed to joke about how strange this freak death is. After reading your column for several years, I couldn't help but argue how common these deaths really are and how they're only brought to light when public figures are at the tragic end.
Is it time to reiterate BDSM safety procedures?
P.S. My husband wants to establish the fact that heâs never had any shit stains on his draws⌠whatâs with the male stereotype of streaks?
I'm always completely honest with my feelings, but if he wants to keep hanging out and just ignore it am i automatically the bitch? Isn't it kind of up to the guy at some point? Am i supposed to just cut off friendships? At age 23 doesn't everyone sort of have secret hots for everyone?
Dan...? Thoughts?
and jfj, you love the attention. admit it. garfunkel and oates are working on that song as we speak, and if they aren't, dan needs to make sure of it.
it's my opinion that people need to take care of their asses. i know that some dudes & ladies have hairier butts. try using baby wipes/feminine hygene wipes!
post script- i have an ex-boyfriend who was not a good wiper. it's disgusting & difficult to approach the subject. that's why everyone needs to just clean up!
SNSS: Pics or it didn't happen.
JFJ: Just be completely honest. You like him as a buddy and don't want anything more. If he still sticks around, maybe your not the sadist, he's the masochist.
If it's the former, then leading him on is a right bitch move, and the only way out is a breakup. But if it's the latter, there are a couple other endings, which I offer as a former "friend who had the hots for girls who didn't have the hots for him" guy.
One is the status quo is maintained until JFJ grows out of her desire to date jerks and jumps into bed with the guy who has offering the healthy relationship for 2.5 years. Alcohol can take the edge off the initial hookup.
Another is that the friend gets frustrated on his own, starts treating JFJ less well, and triggers her romantic desire as a result. As I got older I realized this was much faster than waiting for the girl to grow up. And a lot easier, once you accept your inner asshole.
Another is JFJ just tells the guy straight up she isn't romantically interested, but makes a sincere effort to hook her friend up with her female friends. It should be easier to be friends when the guy has someone else to focus his hots on.
But all of those only work if the guy isn't just plain generally unattractive but willing to help JFJ move.
http://digg.com/d1tMN6
One way for SOFAGAL to deal with this is to insist that her guy shower before they do it--but even then, she has to say he needs to scrub every inch, "even your butt." WITH SOME GUYS THEY ARE SO STUPID OR LAZY OR IN DENIAL YOU HAVE TO TELL THEM TO CLEAN THEIR BUTTS. This is not a gay/straight issue. It is a male issue. I am gay and the two guys I have mentioned are gay.
And guys, don't ever fall into the JLJ trap. It's a sucker bet, every time. You can only lose.
If it's been made clear to all parties that there won't be any romantic entanglement, honesty is all anyone owes to anybody. Girls don't go for "jerks"; they go for guys (and girls) with enough confidence and self-respect to pursue relationships when it's appropriate and welcomed and not hang around for "2.5 years" hoping to guilt-trip their way into bed with a girl by moving enough boxes.
Either the guy has sacked up and asked her out or he hasn't. If he has, and she has said no, then he's a grown up and should do whatever he needs to to deal with it. Leave, stay, whatever - it's his problem and not hers.
If he hasn't? Too damn bad. The guy can't even get together the courage to ask her out, but is brave enough to act like a brat whenever she's dating someone else.
This situation is his fault entirely. He loves her, he hangs around with her even though there isn't a chance of them getting together, he throws a shitfit when she goes out with another guy.
And the 'helped you move,' bit. Seriously? You, Dan, are hiring some *fucked up* moving companies if you think helping a girl move means she should put out.
The only thing JFJ has been doing is living her life, with a friend who has decided to sulk every time it becomes clear that she's not going to jump into bed with him.
I think she probably should, in fact, leave the whining loser. But lets place the blame where it belongs.
Either the guy has sacked up and asked her out or he hasn't. If he has, and she has said no, then he's a grown up and should do whatever he needs to to deal with it. Leave, stay, whatever - it's his problem and not hers.
If he hasn't? Too damn bad. The guy can't even get together the courage to ask her out, but manages to be brave enough to act like a brat whenever she's dating someone else. What a prize.
This situation is his fault entirely. *He* loves her, *he* hangs around with her even though there isn't a chance of them getting together, *he* throws a shitfit when she goes out with another guy.
And the 'helped you move,' bit. Seriously? You, Dan, are hiring some *messed up* moving companies if you think helping a girl move means she should put out.
The only thing JFJ has been doing is living her life, with a friend who has decided to sulk every time it becomes clear that she's not going to jump into bed with him.
I think she probably should, in fact, leave the whining loser. But lets place the blame where it belongs.
Dan is not suggesting that girls should put out when they get help moving (or whatever). He is suggesting that girls who take advantage of guys who help them move because they want to get in their pants (as opposed to guys who help them move because they've been offered beer & pizza) are douchetrucks.
I think it is possible to maintain a friendship despite a one-way attraction, but it distinctly sounds like that's not JFJ's situation. Dan's advice seems good. I think he is trying to encourage taking responsibility for the relationship, not blaming anyone.
When a girl is rejected (sexually, romantically) by a guy, she can conceive of still being friends with him.
So, she thinks, "obviously if I turn down a guy, he knows we are only friends..."
I'm afraid he may know that in his head, but his heart and his dick are going to keep guiding his actions. Dan's comments about him helping her move, or other social favors, is probably dead on the money. He still feels that because they know each other, there is a chance she'll come around to him.
At the same time, this blinds him to potential relationships with women who are actually interested in having a romantic relationship with him.
It would be much kinder to him to break the chain completely rather than the half-assed "we can be great friends! but I'm never having sex with you..."
There is a reason 'nice guy' and 'friend zone' are recognized cultural terms.
Re: Savage Love
@salamander
I don't recall the girl saying she asked that guy for any favors whatsoever. I recall Dan assuming that she *must* be taking advantage of the poor, poor guy. That's a shitty attitude, and jfj doesn't deserve it.
As for who is the douchetruck, I've helped friends move. I have helped a guy friend move. I spent an entire day assembling ikea furniture and getting a mattress up a set of stairs, and no one was hurt or taken advantage of. Why?
1. I'm a big girl and can say 'no.'
2. I assumed that the last box I opened would have a pizza in it and not his dick wrapped in ribbons.
The guy (or girl) who hangs around you as a friend and then gets bitchy because they don't jump to significant other status after x amount of favors is the douchetruck.
I'm a woman, so perhaps you'll say that makes a difference. But it's possible to move on without breaking a connection. Seriously, why would you blame her? She rejected him; it's up to him to stay or go. She's not necessarily toting with him. It's not her fault that her friend is attracted to her and is a bit of a jealous jerk at times. He needs to learn to cope.
I'm disappointed that, out of the hundreds (thousands?) of emails you get, you singled her out for an undeserved lecture. Don't quote the dictionary about advice, please; I understand that it was you she asked. But I disagree with your advice.
To JFJ: I think that you should talk to him if it's really getting to be a problem. That's about all the advice I can give, aside from saying I don't think you deserved what Dan said. Sadistic? Tch. Not what I'd call sadism. Good luck to you.
Yes, she's a tad evil, yes he's mainly spineless and yes both parties have their share of issues.
If they were both so self aware neither would be in this predicament â but again at that ageâŚ
So waddaya gonnado? Ok, she could do some noble thing like explain why they can't be friends anymore â kinda dopey imho. Ideally he should grow a pair and either shit or get off the pot (sorry sofagal).
But who among us has never been on either or both sides of unrequited love? I mean its one of the many things that people go through and isn't likely to change any time soon given the number of songs, poems and books written about it.
I don't think you gave her bad advice, but rather advice that she won't act on and ultimately won't need to. Eventually fate will decide for them and things will evolve/change â someone moves for a job, moves in with a lover, etcâŚ.
C'est la vie bay bay!
Gros bisous from France!
As for JFJ, I don't think she's necessarily being a sadist; that was really harsh. Girls often really are naive enough to think that they can "just be friends" with unrequited lovesick men. Her friend should have gotten over himself, and it's well-advised to cut him out of the picture, but it's not fair from what was said to act as though she was knowingly taking advantage of him.
Not to mention, Dan, us ladies are all too used to being crushed on by every straight male coworker, classmate, acquaintance, and friend we have. This is precisely why we don't write off a friendship the second a guy shows signs of romantic or sexual interest. We'd have to wear burkas and be homemakers to avoid making male friends who might end up being attracted to us.
There are 2 reasons for this: (1) this will help JFJ sort out whether she likes him as a friend or likes him as an unpaid helping lapdog. (2) this will make this guy feel a bit less used when she tells him he doesn't stand a chance.
,
1) If a woman you know won't sleep with you sober, there's a good chance she's not going to be okay with having slept with you drunk. If you do it anyway, you're not a good guy. You're an asshole who takes advantage of women.
2) If it pisses you off when your female friends date guys you label predators instead of you, maybe you should consider your own behavior. If you're sniffing around a woman, acting like you actually care about her while you just want in her pants, trying to use guilt and moments of weakness to eventually trick your way into her bed, that makes you just as bad as any of those predators. It makes you a scavenger; i.e. a predator with less confidence and inferior dress sense.
I was just friends with a guy who had a thing for me for twelve years. I turned him down--more than once--when he asked me out. He was clear. I was clear. Eventually he married someone else, and I was friends with both of them.
Then he and his wife divorced--a process, I must emphasize, that I did nothing to encourage. In fact, I suggested that they work out their issues. Once the dust had settled and the paperwork dealt with, my friend asked me out. Again. And to my surprise, I was able to view things in a different light. We had both grown up, and now we have been very happily married for nearly ten years, with a child we both adore. In this case, I think, the qualities that made for a good friendship have also made for a good marriage. We know, like, and trust one another.
I should also emphasize, though, that both of us were honest, that I did my best not to torture him, and that he did not in any way guilt trip me. JFJ might never want to date her male friend, but if there's any chance, I'd suggest that she view this situation as an example of how they both deal with difficult situations. Do you like what you see? Should he like what he sees?
So no, Dan: it's really not fair to tell SOFAGIRL that she's partially responsible for what happened to her couch. If they'd just had a messy pegging session it would be one thing--sex is often a messy business, as you say--but there's no reason that anybody should expect a blowjob to result in shit stains on the furniture.
(And no, my habit of befriending lonely nerdy boys is not out of some sort of self-centered sadism. I just naturally attract myself to people who like explaining the rules of Magic the Gathering to me and helping me make a D&D character.)
I don't think that all guys and girls can be just friends if the attraction isn't mutual. Some people just have a tendency to lead others on. Some people can't separate friendly chemistry and romantic chemistry in their mind. But my decade long friendships with guys who liked me for a year or two at the outset are proof that it doesn't always end poorly, with the guy feeling exploited and carrying an eternal torch.
Hounding a woman to sleep with you for 2.5 years and then sealing the deal with a booze-fueled hookup is your idea of offering a healthy relationship?
Treating her like crap is a good way to get her into your arms? I bet it was really hard for you to find your inner asshole, huh? You probably had to dig really deep to get into character. If treating your love interest like crap is your idea of romance, then you're the one who needs to grow up.
Finally: So then, what you are saying, is that after having you hang around for years pretending to be her friend, it's then her job to get you laid? She's supposed to make sure that your dick is tended to personally by one of her good friends?
Hey, how about this instead? Take a hint and get that the girl you are stalking does not want to have sex with you. She's just not that into you. Find a girl who likes you for you and then date her. Have sex with her. And then marry her, because you may never find another woman who is willing to look past your "inner asshole", which I largely suspect is no different than your "outer asshole".
I also take exception to his accusation that JFJ has been exploiting her jealous friend. Sure, it's possible, but nothing in her letter covers that. If she was a sadistic bitch who was using her friend to help her move multiple times, would she be worried enough about his feelings and the situation to write Dan? I think not. I think there's enough real things people say in their letters to get angry about or make fun of them for, without making things up.
1- bums are designed not to leak poo! I don't think the rectum is even supposed to have much in it under normal circumstances (it's not like a bladder). Maybe there's something going on up thurr. Getting that shit checked out should be encouraged.
2- cattle prods are for shocking animals that are several times the size of humans and also in principle no one cares what damage is done to the cow as long as people will still pay money to eat it. Playing with a cattle prod sounds UNSAFE.
3- Yeah, the girl is the one who wrote in with the problem, but I wonder if Dan would have given the same advice to a dude (about a girl who liked him) in the same situation. It seems kind of obvious that they could have an honest conversation about it instead of her acting all sketchy and trying to cut him loose.
But if you are willing to turn the other cheek (heh), you could simply broach the subject with him. The topography of every asshole is different- some people might have ridges as complex as the Rockies, and some are as smooth as the plains. Maybe he just doesn't know how to deal with his buttscape.
Break it to him gently with a box of baby wipes.
Also, I think you were off base on your advice for JFJ... I'm with @42. I have had "the hots" for a number of my guy friends (sometimes for several years). I really enjoyed their friendship, and found that I wanted to keep them in my lives, even if it was non-romantically. And the reverse (guy friends crushing on me) has happened plenty of times as well. I am still friends with many of these guys 8-10 years later, and with me (and often them) being married. Hell, I'm willing to bet that almost everyone in their teens and early 20s has had this happen multiple times, on both sides of the fence.
It just seems silly to berate this girl for not breaking it off... If the guy can't deal with her in his life non-romantically, then HE should break it off. If he can deal, and enjoys the friendship, he shouldn't. Obviously, she should not do or say anything to get his hopes up, but as long as she's not doing that, I don't see what the problem with this situation is.
Nice stable guys might harbor long term crushes but so do crazy head-cases.
If you weren't being taken advantage of when you helped friends move, that's great!
Some people do take advantage of others, though--and although moving is the classic and extreme example, it can also boil down to always getting rides from someone or letting them buy the alcohol/pot/food and never bringing it yourself or a million other ways a person can take advantage of someone who would rather be close to the object of his/her affection than have some self-respect and boundaries. People who think doing stuff for someone will earn them boygirlfriendhood are stupid. People who take advantage of their stupidity are douchetrucks.
@Julie in Eugene (and others)
The girl is complaining about the friendship. Dan is saying that it's not going to change and if she doesn't like it, she'd better get out. Now if dude suddenly mans up and goes "whoa, I've been devoting my life to someone who is never going to fall in love with me--I need a little distance to sort myself out and maybe we can be friends again in a few years," that would solve everybody's problem, probably in the best possible way. But since he may not be reading this week's column, it's up to the person who wrote in to think about what she can do to solve her problem.
There is nothing worse than a guy who hangs around a woman hoping to get laid, eagerly awaiting each breakup as the time he can show up for emotional support so she will realize just how cool he is and finally fuck him, even though she has told him no like 50 times. Then again, this is the basis for almost every romantic comedy ever made. If she is not careful, eventually he will chase her to the airport, destroying seven or eight fruit stands and roach coaches on the way. Then he will jump on the same plane and make a huge scene in the hope that it will finally convince her to fuck him.
Or maybe she should just uglyfy herself to prevent shit like this. Or never befriend any straight guys, just in case she leads them astray!
1. If Person A has the hots for Person B, and Person B wants to be "just friends", then the onus is on Person A to put up or walk. Any "torment" suffered by Person A is entirely self-inflicted. The attraction of Person A to Person B is Person A's responsibility, and putting any of that on Person B's shoulders is, frankly, bullshit. It is entirely possible to have a "just friendship" with someone to whom you're attracted. I know. I've done it.
2. If Person A is being a jealous whiner whenever Person B is dating someone else, Person A should STFU. This is not a natural consequence of Person B's "torment" of Person A; this is Person A being a douchebag.
3. If Person A does not STFU, then Person B should cut off the friendship. Not to save Person A from "torment", but because Person A is being a fucking douchebag.
The notion that Person A's attraction to Person B entitles them to any special consideration from Person B is complete horseshit, IMNSHO. Yes, Person B shouldn't be a big jerk and rub Person A's nose in their other relationships or anything like that, but that sort of thing is covered by basic human decency.
Of course, JFJ's guy bears responsiblity for his own actions and, of course, he ought to move on, stop torturing himself (or attempting to engage in emotional blackmail, if that's what he's doing) and find someone who's interested back, but that doesn't mean the girl has no responsibility whatsoever.
Certainly, you don't have to dump every guy friend who expresses a romantic interest in you that you don't reciprocate. Some (maybe even most) guys can handle the switch to "friend mode" or have sense enough to end the friendship themselves if they can't.
However, if you know that the guy can't handle it (and seeing him get in a snit every time you date another guy is a pretty big clue) and you continue to do whatever it is you are doing to maintain the friendship (and for friendship to have any meaning you must be doing something: inviting him out, accepting his invitations out, calling him, hanging out at his place, inviting him to hang out at your place, or whatever) then, sorry, honey, but you are being a selfish bitch, and you can't rationalize it by saying he could stop it if he wanted to.
My advice to her would be to have an honest conversation with this guy about the situation (he likes her; she says itâs not going to happen but she enjoys the friendship; she tells him if he can handle being friends with no possibility of romantic involvement then they should remain friends; if he canât they shouldnât). I wouldnât confront him on the jealousy thing alone, without having the bigger conversation.
I think its disrespectful to engage in sex of any form if you donât think youâre clean (unless your partner likes that). Just like Dan says about anal sex. Ya shit happens, but if you are respectful of your partner you will try your best to be as clean as you can.
I think some of us are just objecting to the fact that Dan automatically assumed this woman was a bitch. Maybe he has information we don't have, but, based on the info in the published letter, we can only assume that Dan thinks that all women in this situation are bitches.
However after that, he became very jealous and accused me of victimizing him - molesting him, in fact - because I dared to consort with other men in his presence. I'm not talking big PDAs, we were all socially appropriate, but just the very idea that I would date someone else was suddenly too much for him. He was such a jerk about it that other people in our social circle noticed, even though I hadn't said anything to anyone.
I think guys have strong emotions, and they're not always logical - my friend just got stuck in a loop. We weren't very close friends after that, but it's been over 15 years since we've even hung out, and I don't have hard feelings about it anymore.
Take it from a gay guy that hates dirty asses. Buy some baby wipes and keep them in your bathroom...say things like how fresh your ass is with baby wipes. Maybe do some anal exploring of your own and open the conversation with "I want to try anal, but want to make sure my ass is clean." Drop hints about showering after shitting and 'touching up' with baby wipes.
If that doesn't work...buy the guy some maxi pads or panty liners..that's just gross.
Of course, the guy in this equation needs some advice as well, and I think Dan was remiss in not giving him the 'masochistic' label to JLJ's 'sadistic' one. If y'all re-read Dan's words, he calls it "thoughtless sadism," which pretty much applies to everyone at least once in their romantic lives. He's simply warning her that anything more after his advice will go under the label of *conscious* sadism, which is a no-no. But once you get past those labels, his ultimate advice is sound: If you're really friends w/ this guy, do what's best for him & tell him it will never work, to stop wasting his time, and get on finding another woman.
And Dan...seriously, completely ignoring the possibility that the guy with the attraction to JFJ is the one who wanted to keep being friends in the first place...come on! She said it's been over two years. He's had plenty of time to walk away himself.
But, I can also see where a woman is not using him, but he thinks if he sticks around long enough, she'll eventually date him. If he's not getting anything from the friendship (would he be friends with her if he was married?), then he and she should just go his separate ways. In that case, he's not being her friend. And if he's being a jerk to her, she should ask herself why she's his friend.
Likewise, if she is only using him to build her self esteem and would be upset if he dated another woman (but doesn't want to date him herself), then she's not being a friend, either.
The sexual attraction is not really the important part. What they should ask themselves is what they get out of the friendship and what they put into the friendship. It should even out. If it doesn't, that tells them something.
It's unrealistic for her to expect him to be all "DO TELL!" about her latest boyfriend when she knows he's waiting for her to finally declare her undying love for HIM. Sure, he's a fool for waiting, and that's his choice. But he didn't write in. She wrote in, pissed he wasn't happy to hear about her fucking other dudes.
If she wants to maintain a friendship (which ideally is a mutual enjoyment of each other's company on equal terms) with this guy, she'll have to realize he's going to fade out of the picture whenever she has a romantic relationship going on. Expecting him to "suck it up" is indeed inhumane on her part (even if it's equally foolish on his to keep waiting).
And yes, it's all so painfully 20's that I just want to go back in time and shoot my college self in the face.
1) be upfront about your feelings (or lack thereof) but not insist you "talk" about them all the time
2) be his very best wingman. guys with cute chicks get way more attention from other girls than guys without.
Next, I would ask if she's leading him on in any way? It's only sadism if she's giving false hints he MIGHT be able to get in her pants if he helps her move again. You're quick to jump on her for emotionally manipulating him, but fading out on your "friend" whenever she gets a boyfriend is pretty manipulative too. It's normal for sexual tension, jealousy etc to enter friendships at times, but if they are real friends BOTH of them owe each other the plain truth about their feelings rather than a bunch of vague headgames.
As for the shit stain, just clean it up. And use a towel next time. If you're willing to stick your face in his crotch and swallow his babies, what's the big deal about a little poo?
Not even going near the cattle prod story. Whenever I hear about these dangerous BDSM things, I wonder what these people plan on telling the ER staff and/or police? Eesh.
Next, I would ask if she's leading him on in any way? It's only sadism if she's giving false hints he MIGHT be able to get in her pants if he helps her move again. You're quick to jump on her for emotionally manipulating him, but fading out on your "friend" whenever she gets a boyfriend is pretty manipulative too. It's normal for sexual tension, jealousy etc to enter friendships at times, but if they are real friends BOTH of them owe each other the plain truth about their feelings rather than a bunch of vague headgames.
As for the shit stain, just clean it up. And use a towel next time. If you're willing to stick your face in his crotch and swallow his babies, what's the big deal about a little poo?
Not even going near the cattle prod story. Whenever I hear about these dangerous BDSM things, I wonder what these people plan on telling the ER staff and/or police? Eesh.
Next, I would ask if she's leading him on in any way? It's only sadism if she's giving false hints he MIGHT be able to get in her pants if he helps her move again. You're quick to jump on her for emotionally manipulating him, but fading out on your "friend" whenever she gets a boyfriend is pretty manipulative too. It's normal for sexual tension, jealousy etc to enter friendships at times, but if they are real friends BOTH of them owe each other the plain truth about their feelings rather than a bunch of vague headgames.
As for the shit stain, just clean it up. And use a towel next time. If you're willing to stick your face in his crotch and swallow his babies, what's the big deal about a little poo?
Not even going near the cattle prod story. Whenever I hear about these dangerous BDSM things, I wonder what these people plan on telling the ER staff and/or police? Eesh.
Yeah, the guy bears some responsibility too. But you know what? It's a fuckload easier to break an unrequited love pairing off when you're NOT the person who's infatuated.
Continuing it when you know what's going on and you're the person holding all the power is always cruel. I'm sure most of us have been on both sides of that dynamic at some point in our lives, but that doesn't make what Dan had to say wrong, either.
Interestingly, I think the same advice would also solve JFJ's problem, as most men will be far less attracted to a woman that has taken a shit on their furniture.
Being dense is forgivable. Being lazy about it is not.
When are men going to realize that the vast majority of women that want to be your friend in a non-romantic way is a: dick on hold situation. You are the go to guy that they can be with when all other options are off the table. An emotional sadist if you will.
Yes, yes, there are nice girls with the best of intentions-but the guy just wants to fuck you, really, he does. Maybe he thinks of it as Makin' love underneath a Cherry Moon all in black and white, but it is still the same thing. You've heard this a million times, it is true, you, most of you, aren't that great, seriously, most of us aren't that great either, I know, we know it, we just really want to screw that is it.
As to whose fault it is?
Both, but really, if you are a nice girl, a nice person with aspirations to nicety in any level: you let the bastard off the hook. If he still comes around keep telling the bastard that the road to coitus is closed. That you have no intention of being his SO, GF, whatever acronymn you choose.
It is very difficult to have friends that are of the opposite sex, difficult like being a tolerant nazi. Unless, unless, and here is the big Unless: the girl is ugly. Seriously, women are better judges of this. Men really find it difficult to rate themselves in this manner. They are all average to gorgeous, but girls know. If you are ugly the guy is your friend because he thinks, at worst, he is average, and that you are a cool chick. So, if you are ugly and you like a guy as a friend-he likes you as a friend too.
Sometimes they are a co-worker or otherwise similar situation. So, I have to ignore them when they come to me for help, or if my computer breaks? OK...
And, sometimes they are just friends. I told this one friend that I did not want to date him when he asked. But, we had already become very close friends, and even he agreed that he did not want to break ties. I could tell this man things I couldn't even tell my close girlfriends...he just knew me so well. I was not attracted to him, he was shorter than me (I am very tall), and overweight. But, I loved him for who he was. Finally, he wore me down. He made me feel like such a shit for not wanting to be with him. We dated for 4 months. During this time, he fell completely in love with me. And I never changed the way I felt for him. I became very mean to him, I could not understand why he couldn't keep his emotions in check. It was very unfair. I feel horrible for what happened, and I broke up with him. I lost a great friend that I still miss. If he had just let it go, and not make me feel bad for not wanting to date him, none of that would've happened, and maybe we could've stayed friends.
So, yes, the guy is a masochist. And, he is most likely waiting for her to get drunk, or just give in already, which will NOT go well. If she is not interested, she's not interested. He will not be the love of her life. But, it sounds like he is a very important friend to her. Why does that make her a mean sadist? Let's keep our misogyny in check, people......
My advice: JFJ should sleep with the sap. Odds are she's lousy in bed, he'd realize it, and they could continue being friends. If she's not lousy-by-nature, most of us are lousy when we're not that into it.
At the cost of an evening of sweaty fun, she can have her friendship back. And, oh, she might learn something. It's just one night of sex, not the end of the universe.
@ 87: Christ⌠where to begin? Buddy, you've got some real deep-seated issues.
And as for this JFJ thing: I donât think itâs unfair to JFJ to tell her to stop tormenting the guy, even if heâs being an immature, manipulative jackassâwhich he obviously isâand even if she doesnât mean to torment himâwhich she probably doesnât. Theyâre both at fault here, but as somebody already pointed out, sheâs the one who wrote in, not him. Whatâs Dan supposed to tell her? Itâs pretty obvious that neither of them is very fulfilled by their friendship, so itâs hardly misogynistic to point out that she ought to do the responsible thing and tell the guy to take a hike. Maybe sheâs perversely enjoying the jealous attention she gets from him, and maybe heâs perversely enjoying the negative attention he gets when he acts like a sulky baby, but even if only one of these statements is true, then theyâd both do well to find different company. Itâs sad, but thatâs just how it goes sometimes. And it doesnât necessarily make either of them fundamentally bad people. Can anybody here honestly say that theyâve never behaved like a total jackass once or twice when they were emotionally overwhelmed or confused? I mean, isnât this kind of the main reason Danâs got a job?
Anyway, Iâve been on both sides of this kind of thing, several times over the years (and yet I havenât become jaded and angry like Mr 87, above!), and obviously itâs tough having unrequited feelings for somebody youâre close to. BUT: NEITHER is the other side easy to be onâanybody who says itâs no big deal, emotionally, to be in JFJâs place either never has been or is just a really callous person (or, yeah, maybe a sadist, but what I think Dan meant by âthoughtless sadismâ was something along the lines of callous insensitivity). Sometimes it can be worked through, but even when it can, once itâs gotten to the point where things are going the way they are for JFJ and her idiot friend, the two people are going to need a bit of time apart.
And finally, @ 88/90 (Bear): You sound like a pretty thoughtful person, but you clearly made a mistake when you let that guy guilt-trip you into getting romantic. Pity is a really shitty foundation for any relationship, as Iâm sure youâd agree.
No, you couldn't have stayed friends with that guy. You never were friends. You may have thought of him that way, but you are never a friend to a man who wants a romantic relationship with you that he isn't getting. He may say otherwise, but in his heart of hearts, you're a woman he isn't fucking yet.
What's worse, the less of an asshole that he seems, the more true this is.
Yeah, guys in that relationship should sack up, but the truth is, most of them aren't emotionally equipped to do so. In that situation, you're the stronger party and most of the responsibility becomes yours.
If a guy had an unrequited crush on me, he'd never have reason to complain that I was leading him on, tricking him into doing chores for me, or manipulating him into buying me stuff. I don't, as a rule, let guys buy me stuff, and I sure as heck wouldn't let a guy do it if there were the slightest chance he'd take it as some kind of down-payment. That part of my life isn't for sale, not for cash, not for movie tickets, not for dinner, not for drinks. If I'm letting a guy buy me something, you can bet he's not confused about where he stands with me or harboring any unrealistic hopes.
Friends owe each other honesty and abstention from manipulation, period.
I'm interested in what "it's only castles burning" said @70, about how crushes are somehow different for guys, not quite lust, not quite love. Do you really think they're different from what we women get? Isn't it same bone-crushing feeling? Where the object of your affection consumes your heart and your libido?
I first detected the "blighty-whitey" problem around the same time I started noticing irritating little hair sprouts afflicting my ears, nostrils, and eyebrows. It took a little while to put it all together (since I don't routinely check my butt in the mirror), but I eventually concluded that the trouble was rooted in ass-crack fur. And so, just as I trim other wayward tufts in my quest to be a well-groomed guy, I started (very carefully) using a disposable razor on my butt crack as part of my shower routine. The skidmark problem went away, and I got the added advantage of an asshole that's more user-friendly for butt play. Win-win.
It could be a general hygiene problem or maybe he just didn't have an opportunity to clean up.
Crushes burn out. And yes, it's possible for men to have friends who are women even if they haven't the slightest intention of fucking them at any point. Deep soulmates? Maybe not. But grownup companions they trust in a number of situations, sure.
To read more about "Nice Guys," I suggest checking out this fantastic explanation: http://moderateleft.com/?p=3763
"You got your emo metrosexual boytoy hag bitchmonster in my electro-stim."
They look at each other.
"MmmMmMmmMmMmmm."
Every step I carried those boxes up the stair will haunt my soul for eternity.
There's a difference between a guy who wants a relationship and gets stuck in the friend zone and is okay with it and a guy who gets stuck in the friend zone and can't adjust.
I got jealous, and I've been trying to avoid him... but he keeps talking to me! When I asked why he was still trying to be friends with me, he only responded with," Why not? Women think too much."
If this girl is actively chasing after him, ya know, giving him encouragement and signs, and not giving him space and backing the hell off, he's NEVER going to get over her, and I have to wonder if she pulls the same bullshit line that this guy's mutual friends have pulled on me; that if I cut off contact, I'm somehow a drama queen and emotionally immature, that somehow not wanting to be subjected to further romantic rejection is a sign of weakness.
Finally, I have to admit, I've never gotten why you would want to be friends with someone you've romantically rejected, ie told "you are not enough." Maybe casual acquitances, but why close buddies? To make yourself feel more popular?
If JFJ takes her friend's feelings seriously, then she should treat ending their friendship as she would a breakup (because that is how it will feel to her friend). If they really do care about each other, she and her friend could try to reconnect after about a year, by which time her friend will have hopefully moved on.
This type of situation is no one's fault; sometimes these things just happen :( But Dan's advice is the best way to deal with it.