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800 Maynard Ave S, Suite 200, Seattle, WA 98134
800 Maynard Ave S, Suite 200, Seattle, WA 98134
Happiness and enthusiasm can be infectious.
Then I show it to my insecure, controlling, domineering, spoiling-for-a-fight boyfriend (can you tell that this is the part I have to imagine?) in the spirit of "honey, you'll never believe what happened to me today: take a look," and he thinks the appropriate response is to poop, take a picture of the poop, and text the photo'd poop to the poor dude who had the gall to give me his phone number?
What does he think his girlfriend's response to this would be? Or does he not care that she would then think he's a crazy, possibly dangerous, abusive, asshole? "Worse things have happened," huh? Indeed.
He describes himself as "protective." Protective? Is there a part of the story that is being left out? What is he protecting her from? No one can stalk her (except crazy boyfriend, and I'm sure he already is); the stranger gave her his phone number; he doesn't have hers.
She should DthisMF yesterday. Psycho.
WIF: Your husband might be a cuckold. What's certain is your husband is open to exploring or just letting you explore. Respect your husband's awesomeness and figure out the best option for the both of you.
BK: Jealous douchery on that scale is a large red flag with DTMFA in all caps, lit with roving helicopters. Seriously, dick move.
Then again, maybe the friends think that whatever the actual picture is of is "abhorrent" as a response--in which case, I am with the friends.
In any case, no matter what "his shit" refers to, the action is one of a deeply controlling, massively insecure, out-of-control, asshole. Dan's response applies.
I assumed he meant genitalia, but *shrug*. The use of the word "butthole" threw me off completely since that is some ancient fucking slang. Like man that dude must have found it under some old pearl jam CDs at the bottom of his closet or something, jeez.
Anyway I love a possessive man as much as any girl, but his incarnation sucks. Move on girl.
Well, to begin, you might not want to refer to them as "appendages" when you talk to her about it. Sounds a bit like you want to keep them in a box under your bed.
He really had much better NOT be a cuckold; that would be quite a nasty way to behave, letting a wife think her husband is doing her a huge favour when really she's just handed him his kink on a platinum platter.
Also, I have to admit if I were in BF's position, it'd be tempting to have some fun with the guy. Maybe text as my GF and tell him to come over with beer, and then answer the door myself and say, "Dude, thanks for the beer, should I crack one open for you, too?"
But, I think it's pretty clear the BF sent a poop shot, which is just weird and gross and kind of disturbing.
What if he were to revel in his kink for a little while but then repay his wife for her indulging him by pampering her. I get regular spa pedis and am usually at the point of groaning from the pleasure of having my feet and calves massaged.
Yes, he could have been more honest with her as to his needs, but he can also offer her a deal now that she may not want to refuse. If, along the way, he also learns how to give her a decent pedicure, that'll give him more legit time to spend with her feet. And treat her more as a person rather than some abstract body connected to "appendages".
As for FEET, I'm going to riff on my advice from @17 in the "Not Gonna Happen" SLLOTD -- FEET has no idea what shit really turns his wife on, or he'd mention it. He "makes sure she is satisfied" -- what does that mean, probably one orgasm per episode, through whatever method is easiest for him?
I do think he should 'fess up about his growing obsession, but I also think he should investigate her appetites a little more fully. Think about what you can do for her that will make her limp and satiated, not just for five minutes, but for the whole next day. Think about how to make her scream. Think about what she wants some other guy to do to her, and then make that happen. If your own fetish is escalating, then hope that you can figure out something equivalent to do for your wife, so that she needs your perverted ass as much as you need her.
I agree if you expand "something equivalent" to include nonsexual aspects of the relationship.
There are ways to keep everyone happy in a relationship even if she places a lower priority on sex than he. Also, some women take genuine pleasure in giving, and even feel turned on by themselves as they do it, especially if they feel their needs are being met in a more general sense.
LW needs to get over his shame and stop thinking in terms of quid pro quo - i.e., that he somehow needs to "earn" this shameful sexual favor. He needs to have faith that his wife will let him play with her feet simply because she knows he's a good man to her, she loves him, she wants a happy household, and she understands that's what he needs to do. If she's half as awesome as he seems to think she is, then he should trust that she'll get there, even if it takes a little while for her to figure it out.
@Helenka: I like your foot massage idea, seems like a win-win.
I have some non-contagious skin disorder on my feet and need to take a lot of care of them, which I am often too lazy for.
If a guy took care of all the buffing, peeling and creaming my feet twice a week for me, he'd be welcome to suck, fuck, lick, whatever my toes and feet as much as he wanted to!
re: BK: I'm assuming "his shit" is a picture of his dick, because that's the real message he's trying to send. Not "you're a piece of shit," but "I own this woman and the only dick she's getting is mine." And Dan nailed it - it's an asshole thing to do and it's misogynist as hell to think he should have any right to interject in her not-having-sex-with-the-dude-anyway life.
Chances are very good that he, being male and all, gets "probably one orgasm per episode." But somehow giving her one is comparatively shirking, despite that his orgasm is likely easier to procure in general than hers. (Have we forgotten the general societal bitterness about the unfairness of it all that the man is pretty much guaranteed his, while the woman has to work at it?) Moreover, somehow she feels she is not quite getting her due unless she gets two or three to his one, never mind that his one and only probably takes about twelve minutes while her first takes twenty, her second takes a good half hour more, and the third requires a solid focused forty-five minutes (never mind the required half hour of cuddling and deep relationship discussions between attempts).
And chances in this particular case are approaching unity that the majority of the time his orgasm comes through an avenue that could be described as expedient, rather than the one he likes best -- that being foot play, which already was stipulated doesn't happen very often.
But hey, never miss a chance to turn the man in the situation into the lazy, spoiled, entitled one.
@8 nocutename nailed BK's description as a deeply controlling,
massively insecure, out-of-control asshole (disquietingly SO like my ex),
and I also agree with @14 seandr: BK's poop pic really is weird, gross, and kind of disturbing to me, too.
I'm also with @10 mydriasis that BK's girlfriend ought to dump him, flush the toilet, and move on.
@11: I second @16 EricaP's LOL! I thought that, too, when I read FEET's letter. Here's hoping FEET's 30-something wife isn't stuck sleeping under their bed.
While I agree with Mr Savage's conclusion in general, the preceding sentence feels a little off kilter.
[So if your colleague knew you were married and didn't ask you to leave your husband, and if your husband didn't threaten to divorce you, but asked if this—meaning something more than friendship with this colleague—was "something you need to explore," you might be able to have a relationship with your colleague without having to end your marriage.]
Who asks a woman to leave her husband before a first kiss? (I could wander into what sort of "stellar human being" kisses married people who aren't explicitly clear about that sort of conduct being okay, but I won't.) And the husband may not be threatening divorce, but he seems to be offering it.
She seems like someone gambling who wants to cash out while she's ahead, but is being encouraged by genuine gamblers to bet bigger.
There may be baby steps she can take to see if she can handle more than she thinks, although, if the real problem is that she trusts herself not to leave over this one colleague but thinks then that she'll have to agree to an affair for her husband and she can't trust him...
I don't want my partner to be possessive, I don't want my partner to be jealous, I don't want my partner to block unsolicited attention- I am quite good at doing that myself.
I have no idea how most women feel about these points, but I am very impatient with friends and acquaintances who want a possessive, protective, jealous bf, so they might not tell me anymore. :-)
Since most women who orgasm at all can have multiple orgasms, that seems like a relatively simple way to step up one's game, before asking one's wife to do the same.
You all can believe what you like, but I just don't believe people who say their spouse is totally satisfied, or say that their spouse doesn't have many sexual interests, unless I hear some added specifics which refer to the words vibrators, oral, butt play, and/or rough sex. I think many people delude themselves into thinking they understand their partner's sexuality. And I'd like people who want more of their own thing to try harder to figure out what their spouse wants more of.
@29 You can think what you like. I still don't think so, based on my own personal experience.
Not only am I, like Migrationist, perfectly capable of blocking my own unwanted attention in general, but giving someone a piece of paper with your phone number on it is the most passive unsolicited attention-requesting method that could have been employed, which means it requires no special angry response, or indeed any response whatsoever. All the recipient needs do is literally nothing. Throw the number away. The end.
I don't know if you are speaking from your own experience in that you have asked the women you know from co-workers, to your female relatives, the wives and girlfriends of your friends, and any romantic partners you've had, but I can tell you that not one woman I have ever known has ever indicated that she wants a man to behave like this, to be this jealous, insecure, controlling-under-the-guise-of-"possessive." That's not the same thing as feeling appreciated. I like it when a guy I'm involved with thinks that other guys are interested in me (even if I don't think they are) and pulls me a little closer to him or suggests that he (my bf) is the lucky guy or something--that level of possessiveness. But that whole "don't you talk to my woman--that's my woman" thing is extremely unappreciated. And such an over-the-top reaction as that which BK proposes would be grounds for my leaving him in a heartbeat.
As for what the guy in the letter did (giving his number to the woman) being a "lazy and cowardly" way to meet women,
(A): so what? She isn't interested but someone else might be and do everyone's pick up style have to match everyone elses?
and
(B): (although I think I can guess what you'll have to say about this) think about a movie scene in which a woman who hasn't spoken to a man passes him a note as she leaves the party or the club or wherever. No one would find that lazy or cowardly; they'd find it mysterious, or hot, or sexy. Not everyone breaks behavior down into such rigid gender binaries as you.
Now that I've gotten my creative writing urges out of the way, let me address the actual letter. The ambiguity isn't on what exactly was photographed. As others have mentioned, that hardly matters.
(As an aside, which do you think is worse, getting a photo of shit on your phone which you quickly delete or taking a crap, getting out your camera, adjusting the lighting, spending a moment focusing to get the right close-up, either leaning over a toilet or outdoor setting, possibly manipulating the model, snapping, and sending?)
But back to my point. Is Butthole King the possessive boyfriend or the possessed girlfriend? When I read it, I assumed it was the girlfriend. That could be because, being female, I most readily identify with the women, but look over the original letter and see if you don't catch a vibe that she said "I think it's okay" and then talked it over with her girlfriends who told her it was abhorrent.
This is why I'm worried about the letter writer. If I'm right, we've got a woman who thinks there's something suave and funny about her boyfriend for making such a dick move. She's going to have trouble recognizing when he starts slapping her around because he thought she was coming on to men in the bar.
Hot MMF Action.
Think about it.
Many women come much more quickly after the first orgasm. My second can occur within a minute or two from the first one, and the third takes very little time (like 5 minutes). After that, I generally do need a refractory time, and then the pattern generally resestablishes: about 15-20 minutes for #1, ect.
@EricaP: While I tend to agree with you that a lot of people are deluded about the true level of their partner's satisfaction, I don't think every letter writer needs to explain in detail just what s/he does to guarantee us that his/her partner is truly satisfied. The problem in this letter is that the husband's fetish is much more important to him than his wife realizes, and he hasn't told her, so he isn't as satisfied as he'd like to be. There are multiple and many-pronged solutions to this problem, including his being honest, making sure he is sexually satisfying her and lavishing the kind of sexual attention she prefers on her, and doing other loving, not necessarily sexual things for her to let her know he cherishes and appreciates her. But he doesn't owe us a detailed list of the things he does for or to her in bed. For all you know, she is satisfied with one orgasm per session; for all you know, she is having 4-5 screaming orgasms per session.
@37
There's even a fourth outcome, believe it or not:
d) Once she gets there, the O's keep rolling over her almost indefinitely and at short intervals, to the point that it takes some effort on his part to work through the 'interuptions' to launch his own firework show.
Everyone is different, some women have difficulty with orgasm, etc., etc., but I have to say... That does not sound like any woman I have ever had sex with.
As Erica points out @31, most women who can come once can come multiple times. And to that I would add, for most women I know, the second and subsequent orgasms come faster and easier than the first. Women in general do not have a refractory period like men do. For some women, immediately after orgasm there is heightened sensitive in the clitoris and other areas, so they can require a bit of a break from direct stimulation, but apart from that...
Let me just say I've never been with a woman who needed a significant break - i.e. long enough for me to lose my erection - between her coming from oral and then starting to fuck. And in several cases, women who wouldn't normally come from vaginal intercourse could do so as their second or third orgasm after oral.
YMMV, of course. But "a good half hour more"? Er, no. If it takes a half hour more, it probably wasn't a good one.
you did misunderstand me. It's been ages since a friend or acquaintance told me that she thought an SO should be jealous and possessive etc.
But I get annoyed by women like that whenever someone tells me about a friend of a friend, someone in a movie etc who fell for possessive jealous idiot. So I doubt anyone who knows me would tell me the truth.
In short: I don't have an unbiased sample.
Say Nae to junk, say Yea to family jewels.
His one and only probably takes about twelve minutes while her first takes twenty, her second takes a good half hour more, and the third requires a solid focused forty-five minutes
I agree with the rest of your post, but I too think this is backward. Maybe there are a lot of women out there somewhere who work that way, but my experience has been that the first is the most difficult, and they get progressively easier from there.
@ 50: ...and exploring the most common female kinks as a starting point.
Which do you mean?
A temporary co-worker triggered a strong physical reaction in me every time we worked together. I never told him or anyone else, just rushed home and seduced my husband as soon as I could! Our bodies are strangely wired, if it's something you can't control and don't intend to pursue, I'd say don't feel guilty about it.
Many like to be teased -- getting close to orgasm, but not having one until they're begging for it. Vibrators aren't a kink, but a guy should be comfortable using one on her along with his fingers/tongue. Many women like to be pushed up against the wall of a stairwell, or against a car in a dark parking lot and kissed passionately. (By someone they're dating, not by a stranger!) Okay, now I'm all hot and bothered.
A note is sweet (to me, an English major) and takes the pressure off reacting immediately. You have time to consider many things, which I appreciate.
My take.
My partner and I are both very open about our needs, kinks, and turn-ons, and have a fantastic sex life. And we don't include any of these things in sex (aside from my "breasts fondled fairly roughly", which you seem to include as rough sex but I really wouldn't). You seem to have a very narrow-minded view of sex and what pleases people. Everyone is different.
You mentioned a specific act -- in my experience from reading such letters, there's a difference between people who easily name a specific preference of their partner and people who never get specific. I'm happy to hear that you have a fantastic sex life.
I'm inclined to agree with the conclusion of 49 (a post with admirably general phrasing), but don't know if you meant it as female-specific in light of 50. I could go so far as saying that perhaps a certain pattern occurs more often in MF or perhaps even FF relationships because of socialization, but cannot be sure if you're only speaking to what you know and abstaining on the rest or if you're establishing different paradigms depending on the gender of the LW and of the partner.
That sounds indeed like an asshole move. You hit the nail on the head with why. I would dump him instantly if any guy pulled that shit on me.
@65, FEET! Thanks for writing in!! Glad to hear your wife had fun kinks to explore. When you say: "This is by no means an act of selfishness, but quite the opposite" -- what is "This" referring to? Exploring her kinks? Or writing to Dan about your fetish?
FEET has no idea what shit really turns his wife on, or he'd mention it. He "makes sure she is satisfied" -- what does that mean, probably one orgasm per episode, through whatever method is easiest for him?
To summarize, you're an inconsiderate, sexually incompetent schmuck.
Thanks for writing, and good luck!
OR:
She rolls over and drifts off to sleep (or jumps out of bed to rush off to the latest multitask...).
Peace
Peace
Surprisingly enough, my wife doesn't seem to mind much that I want to slather (with lotion; lavender or rosemary) her lovely back, shoulders,breasts, everything but that damn patch, after her shower. Be open with your desire to care for her and the selfishness on your part seems mooted. (For the record, I got started when she hurt her back and the dead skin peeling off during massages "made" me ask to keep her backside moisturized. Her back is fine now, but for some reason she keeps calling me up to our bedroom after every shower.)
Peace
Well said. Many people are repressed to the point that they can't talk frankly about sex even with their lovers. They think everything's great as long as there are no complaints. That's a foolish assumption that robs millions of good sex.
At least you made the most of it.
Once you get over your shame, a few options occur to me, though I'm no expert on your kink: (1) Get her off first and then play with her feet. (2) Play with her feet while you're getting her off. (3) Offer to give licking her pussy and foot play equal time. Use a timer if necessary. (4) Perhaps if you ask her for permission to get your kink satisfied elsewhere, she might realize how important it is to you.
Many people (including myself) would disagree about whether that's actually funny, but disagreement over what is and isn't funny does not necessarily a controlling asshole make.
I like having my feet worshiped and doing kinky stuff. He LOVES worshiping my feet and likes doing kinky stuff.
The only downside is my inability to tap into it.
This suggests to me that further disclosure of his escalating fetish is going to be a libido killer, not something that she will embrace.
Telling her risks ruining and ending this marriage. She clearly doesn't appreciate the existing mild fetish, and may even dislike it.
Rough sex? You know it.
Teasing? Don't waste my goddamn time.
But from what I hear other women allegedly like it.
Partners that have difficulty getting their lovers to admit kinks may also have difficulty listening, hearing what they want rather than what the partner has said. I disclosed a mild fantasy to my husband about being chased and caught by a lover who was strong enough to rape me, but would never do so. The whole turn-on for me was that the man would never rape despite being physically capable of it. He tried to make that come true with a stranger rape with threats fantasy. After several similar conversations where I simply could not be heard, I just stopped trying. He was into power imbalance, and I simply am not; but it was so hot for him he couldn't hear otherwise. I kept my fantasies to myself rather than have them made completely unsexy.
For the record, I hate teasing once it passes a point early in the encounter. And I know lots of women who don't like the rough aspects EricaP referred to.
FEET - are there other (even non-sexual) ways in which your tastes or your wife's tastes have changed since the early days, but you have accommodated each other? Those might be a lead-in to a conversation about how sexual tastes can change, and be accommodated.
I didn't even know poop pix were a thing. It seems very juvenile to me - about junior high level.
WIF - in a situation similar to yours (attraction, flirting, but no kiss), I tried a variety of things to get the temptation out of my head. Finally, I went solo camping and gave myself a good talking-to. It helped for me, but I suspect each of us may need a different trick.
EricaP - I don't know about common turn-ons. But I've been having fun imagining our SL friends Ophian and Lolo meeting IRL. If my crush on their crush gets any stronger, I might start imagining a three-way, but am concerned Lolo wouldn't appreciate it ;)
Secondly, I have never heard of anyone taking pictures of their feces. Dick pix, however, are as common as sin, apparently. The kids today, with their genital pictures. In my day, if you wanted to send someone a picture of your junk, you had to sit in front of a mirror with a sketch pad. Then you had to buy some postage stamps. Lots of postage stamps. And we liked it that way.
In either case, bravo: the guy didn't have the woman's phone number before and now he does--or maybe he is just used to getting weird photos from unknown numbers.
1. Sexual boredom is soul sucking. If it takes some mild action from an outside 3rd party to re-spark passion within the marriage, that is a great trade-off.
2. Monogamy is totally unnatural (for most). The fact that Mrs. Horton would need someone new to feel alive and passionate again isn't a personal attack on my attractiveness or sexual ability.
3. I love Mrs. Horton so much that seeing her feel sexually alive and desired again would make me happy. It's pathetic to watch someone you love, and who once was a sexual person to completely lose that side of their life.
4. (and definitely not last) - It would hopefully open the door for me to get some ethical monogamish play as well.
That all being said, It would be a huge red flag if Mrs. Horton confessed the level of obsession that WIF has for this new flame. I doubt I would green light a full blown affair - too much risk that it could blow up the kid's home when there is already a deep emotional affair brewing with WIF's co-worker. But it would certainly be a great conversation into how we could crack open the chains of monogamy in a less risky way.
Ms Thinking's situation is an interesting one, as I suppose there are a limited number of workable options for F/BM/GM. (This is rather reminiscent of Mr Merrick.) It seems to fall in between the Anything Goes of two BMs as open on gender as they are on number and the appropriating attitude a number of women (best exemplified by that LW that Ms Cute and I both thought was being highly disrespectful) have demonstrated towards Messrs Savage/Miller.
It's interesting, though, how little overlap that has with the idea of "respectful treatment" (whatever that really is) which is what men tend to assume (and be told) women want.
With the exception of teasing, almost every woman I've slept with was into almost all of those--but almost none of them would ever say so explicitly. I think this has a lot to do with why so many Sloggers think they don't know any women who are into that.
And if it's any consolation, you're not the only one who distrusts people who say of course they satisfy their partners but seem short on specifics.
If I were on the receiving end of said message, I'd consider it an expression of territoriality, whether it's a picture of his dick or his shit.
A cock shot, however, would suggest the sender is an alpha (or wants to come off as such), and I'd probably think it was kind of funny in bro way. The shit pic, on the other hand, would tell me he's a beta, and my reaction would be WTF!? I wouldn't feel humiliated in either case, and can't imagine why anyone would.
I don't know if the recipient has to feel humiliated, for the gesture to be one of humiliation. Territorially depends on an acknowledgment of hierarchy. If you're scrambling for position and someone tells you you're well below him in rank by "giving" you either his genitals or his excrement it is supposed to be a humiliating moment.
But if the "others" who find it abhorrent include the girlfriend, then yeah, obviously the poor girl tends to attact dickheads.
Beyond the ivory tower of Savage Love, most men and women consider their partners off limits to others, and it's not uncommon for people to express objections (with varying degrees of humor, anxiety, hostility, maturity, etc.) to would-be interlopers. I see nothing inherently pathological about such objections. The way they are expressed may tell us something about a person's character, but I don't assume their expression means a person considers their partner to be their "property", as Dan seems to.
Those who don't experience jealousy and can't tolerate it others are probably best forming poly relations with like-minded others. For the rest, there's monogamy. As long as everyone is upfront about where they stand, and they aren't hurting anyone, then I'm not going to judge.
I think (assuming the number-dropper is straight) that the intended reaction, whether dick pic or shit pic, is repulsion. This could be either comical (dude, it's another dude's dick!) or visceral (ugh, it's a big pile of shit!). Either way, there's a distinct element of hostility there.
P.S.
Territoriality could easily be applied to the dick pic for obvious reasons. The shit pic, less so.
It does sound like you--and maybe your wife--would mutually benefit by your telling her that your foot fetish has so passionately increased over the years. Don't be afraid to fan the flames! What if your wife pleasantly surprises you and becomes as sexually excited about feet as you are, relieved that she now knows that your fetish has reached a higher level? How cool to have such a shared passion.
All the best,
Griz
Obviously I am not talking about this guy because obviously be and his girlfriend like this dynamic as why bother even mentioning it unless to evoke a (predictably meathead) response.
I think that's likely, especially since she gave BK the phone number.
The other angle that I'm surprised no one has mentioned is "street harassment". By Cienna Madrid's definition, expressing romantic interest in a woman you don't know is a form of harassment unless she happens to be in a bar or some other clearly designated pick-up zone.
If the guy didn't even know she had a boyfriend (as the lw claims), he can hardly be blamed for trying. She can text him and say, "sorry, I have a boyfriend." More easily and definitively, she can never call him and he'll get the point that she's not interested. There's no need for the boyfriend to get involved at all.
@BiDanFan: yes, I can easily see that both the bf and the gf share the glee in this response, and that it has come as a surprise to whichever one of them is the lw that friends don't agree this is a hilarious response.
P.S. "Ivory tower" was the wrong phrase. "Cutting edge" would be better.
I suppose a poop pic is the sine qua non of "inconsequential," and clearly it has no actual power except to gross out, but I think the desire to send it is rooted in hostility. Okay, maybe not "in the extreme." But the gesture is a hostile, aggressive one. You're either sending a message that the guy is shit or you're saying "eat my shit" (or at least, "take my shit"), or you're saying "this shit is the most you're going to get from me (or her--I'm unclear about whether the recipient is supposed to assume the photo came from the woman or her boyfriend). You, the sender (and your girlfriend, too) might be giggling your head off at the idea that this poor slob is going to get a poop picture, but it's pretty unlikely the guy who gets it is going to share your opinion of the funniness of the response.
I also think that unless you identify yourself, he'll have no idea who is sending him a poop pic and why. And once you identify yourself, he'll have your phone number, when he didn't before. So it seems an idiot move, but then I can't get into the mindset of someone who thinks this is warranted, appropriate or hilarious.
All of this is good for the sex life. As long as everyone plays within the appropriate boundaries. How did BK know 'his' girl was handed a phone number? Odds are she told him. That's all he needs to know. She is being honest and open with him. As long as RG behaves himself and moves on, no harm done. Lots of men play the game by spreading number far and wide, hoping to get a nibble but expecting to get turned down (the joke about the guy asking every woman for sex comes to mind).
I find it interesting to see where BK refers to himself as "protective and insecure", even indirectly. Recognizing your faults is the first step to fixing them. Work on it.