Well, JOE, you have done something quite extraordinary here: you have heard your wife whom you love tell you about something she yearns to do, and you have responded by telling her your preference would be that she never do it, ever, for the rest of her life. And she has agreed ("recommitted"). I am not by inclination a monogamous person, but I have been in both monogamous and non-monogamous relationships, and I can't say I've ever had much success with asking my partner (or being asked by my partner) to give up on any possibility of a deeply cherished wish ever coming true. Are you sure there isn't some other way you could approach this?

Yeah, jesus christ JOE. Have her find another bi- woman who's into the occasional threesome and you're in for a helluva lot of fun. Sheesh. Just roll with it.

Maybe they're not tit-clamps, but clothespins for airing out his lederhosen.

AT THE VERY LEAST, BFF, and probably her friends too, should stop drinking so often and then using it as an excuse for their

for their behavior. Nothing wrong with drinking, but it seemed to be the major factor in her descriptions.

LW 2-The tit claps could have also been a free gift from an online adult store purchase. I ordered a couple of new toys from A&E with Dan's code and one of my "super sexy" free gifts was a set of nipple clamps. I got them while not in a relationship and did not want to throw them away so they sit, still in the package in my nightstand.

@4 Gotta agree. I wonder how much being sober for a few weekends would affect their relationship.

I agree with Dan that JOE's wife probably shouldn't have said that she thinks about Daenerys Targaryen while fucking JOE.

But I also think it's damaging to a marriage if you don't at least try to talk honestly about what turns you on. A better way to do this might be to say "when I'm alone masturbating, I sometimes think about Daenerys Targaryen."

And if the other person freaks out ("you fucking dragon-mother-fucker!"), then you can walk it back ("No, baby, it was just once, you know from now on you're the only one I'll ever fantasize about) -- or leave.

@4: Exactly. I was certain Dan's response to BFF would have started with "Um, maybe drink less?" Nothing wrong with being a slut, but if alcohol is causing these people to do things they wouldn't do while sober, at least one and possibly all three of them have a drinking problem.

@1/@2: Sadly, JOE's letter is typical of the reactions my straight male partners have had to my sexual orientation. Not all dudes are like "yay! Threesome!" Some are, in fact, totally monogamous and don't see sex with women any less as "cheating" as they'd view sex with men. And some bisexuals are totally monogamous and happy to confine their same-sex desires to fantasy. Perhaps she told him in hopes that he'd share the fantasy with her, and they could both have explosive orgasms while mutually fantasising about Daenerys Targaryen. JOE, reckon you could be GGG and give this a shot?

@8: If JOE is so monogamous, he might freak out at the idea that his wife would be alone masturbating...

L1 has a retro feel to it; who has the abandon to toy with consent so recklessly these days? I recall that Ms Erica has had some intelligent things to say about drunken sex; perhaps a Compleat Guide on the subject would be a real winner.

You should see the Pope's collection of 19th-century tit clamps. Holy Victorian sex toys, Batman.

@JOE: I'm able to be attracted to redheads and brunettes. Can I possibly be monogamous?

@BFF: When one person catches feelings, it's time to end the FWB relationship--either by becoming more, or less. Good on you for noticing that your desire to have veto rights over who FWB sleeps with meant you wanted more, rather than trying to claim that FWB relationships carried that right. I've seen a lot of FWB relationships flame out that way, because when the feelings are high it's hard to remember that while monogamous relationships carry that right by default, FWB relationships don't.

JOE - I am a bisexual woman that has been married for 33 years and I have never cheated on my husband. Thanks for clarifying for me that I should not disclose this to him.

BFF - People fuck friends who they are attracted to all the time. That doesn't end friendship; mistreatment or growing apart does. It seems you made a drunk sex decision that you weren't happy with... you could either stop drinking to have sex, or plan sex before you drink and learn to drop the drunk improv routine. It seems your primary relationship is with your roommate, but you also fuck others regularly; it might help to read up on poly relationship dynamics. I'm not sure if you're more worried about losing your roommate, or that your roommate is interfering in your FWB relationship; it seems like you need to figure out who you want as a primary, or bring up a triad if you want both equally as permanent fixtures in your sex life.

JOE - I thought that Dan started off great. Straight and gay people can develop an attraction to someone else, even if they are not a different gender; cheating does not depend on orientation. I would phrase possible cheating as; at least you won't have to worry about pregnancy, or STI's as much, if she's a cheater but chooses a woman instead of a man.

I would like to read BFF's entire, unedited letter. Could you post it to SLLOTD?

Ms Fan - I agree that for many monosexuals a bi partner is a relationship bug, not a feature. If permitted, I'll append to the "Some are" sentence that some of those monogamous men would regard your having sex with (other) women exactly the same as their having sex with other women. This leads me back into two potentially interesting areas - Ms Cute's wanting to be treated equally except when she doesn't (her own words), and how being "orientation blind" compares to being "colour blind", which seems at present to be rather insulting.

I thank you for pointing out an inherent advantage of OS, one which is largely behind how I've long thought that B-S is an easier fit than B-L or B-G. Whether or not it would be non-GGG of LW3 to be unable to go with Ms Fan's joint fantasy about please-don't-tell-me-who-that-woman-is, it's definitely a much smaller ask than expecting a gay man to indulge a bi partner's joint fantasy about Laura Davies (whom I select because I want to express my condolences about the Solheim Cup, in which Ms Davies has always been my favourite participant).

I'm inclined to wonder why LW3 waited so long. The consultation might have been more useful during or even before the negotiating period. I'm getting a suspicion that he wanted to "win" the negotiation first. Everything has such a weaponized feel these days; it seems as if, to return to Mr Ramsay's alphabet, that agreeing to D really means agreeing to anything up to J, or that asking for K really asks for anything up to S. Then we end up with a coin on which either one say no to #9 or agrees to regular FMMs.

I like how Dan says "not everything needs to be shared, people" -- too bad he didn't say that to the woman in last week's column who was upset & confused because her son told her he & his wife were poly.

@9 - a bisexual woman cheating with a woman instead of another man IS cheating to the same degree as she would be with another man. Because you're not monogamous if you sleep with other people regardless of their gender. Because two women having sex are two women having sex - not two women just messing around. Thank you for being the reason bisexuals have a bad reputation in the lgbt community for being cheaters who are either lesbians who don't want the stigma or straight girls trying to have some fun, and for being the reason straight people think bisexuals are always up for threesomes. Thanks. Way to be a loser.

Wayne @18: Because having more than one romantic partner who is an important part of one's life, is EXACTLY THE SAME as what one may or may not be fantasising about when they're having sex. Eyeroll.

Me2 @20: "a bisexual woman cheating with a woman instead of another man IS cheating to the same degree as she would be with another man." Fair point. Cheating is cheating; sneaking around and having sex with others behind the back of someone you've made a monogamous commitment to is not gender dependent.

This is why I put the word "cheating" in quotes. To phrase it better: Some men consider it OK for their female partner to have sex with women, but not men, outside the relationship. Others would consider it just as much of a betrayal as having sex with other men.

And geez. After I went out of my way to state that some bisexuals are happy to be monogamous. Happy Bi Visibility Day to you too.

@20 Yeah, I think it's pretty well-established that many straight guys don't see girl/girl sex as cheating, or as anything but a super-hot fantasy come to life. This gives bi women some advantages, in some circumstances, though less often than one would think.

I got the impression that BDF was pointing out that this advantage isn't something that can be counted on with everyone. Mentioning that sometimes the popular, erroneous belief can be useful (and that sometimes it can't) isn't the same as endorsing the popular, erroneous belief.

FWIW, in my experience, bisexuals aren't less likely to be monogamous than anyone else is.

Hey Joe. Yes she will never do what she would like to do because you don't want her to, ok?

A few years ago, she came out to me as bisexual...she explained that she often fantasizes about women when we have sex in order to come

Wow, that's a hell of a thing to disclose 9-10 years into a marriage. Not sure why Dan failed to mention his usual advice that people should begin to disclose kinks/orientations/etc to their partners on the 3rd date, not on the 10th wedding anniversary.

Your wife should have been honest up front and given you the opportunity to enter the relationship eyes wide open, or end it if it just wasn't for you. Unfortunately, she chose to deceive you. That she witheld such an important part of who she is for so long was a selfish, distrustful, and shitty thing to do, and you have every right to be upset about it.

No idea what you should do, but, hey, there's at least one commenter here who feels for you.

I think there's a huge gap between what one thinks about in order to come and what one plans on doing in real life.

Drinking should have been addressed right away as others have noted.

The husband with the bi wife sounds insecure, "love my wife very much. We have a great relationship, and I cannot see myself being with anyone else." Maybe dependent, who knows.

seand @ 27
It takes time to figure out for one self, all along feeling guilty, and then figure out ways to tell it to your partner. It is also possible that preferences/orientations change with time.

The bi wife "confession" was meant to let her husband know how important and strong are her bi feelings. I agree that she could have been more tactful, but the message is loud and clear.

If their relationship is indeed great why would hubby feel so insecure?

Well, I can't believe I'd ever be saying this, but thanks Eudaemonic for having my back today. And a happy Bi Visibility Day to you too!

Sean @27: On the other hand, there's you. Perhaps this wife has struggled with and been in denial of her sexual orientation, because she knows deep down what she wants is a monogamous relationship, and has no desire to act on these feelings for women. In that case, why chance a Me2-style rejection? Take my word for it, coming out as bisexual isn't necessarily easy. Perhaps she only came to terms with it after she was married -- the letter doesn't state how old they are. And I don't see anyone here telling JOE he has to let his wife shag women. I think what you "feel" is biphobia.

Possibly because his wife's been hiding her sexuality for the first ten years they were married? Seandr's right (and usually Dan is too) about stuff like that. Your basic sexuality should come up by the third date, and all your kink cards should be on the table by the end of the first year.

For someone who isn't thinking clearly--and this kind of thing doesn't exactly help people think clearly--finding out your partner had been hiding something as big as what her sexuality is for that fuckin' long would make anyone insecure. If they've been hiding their sexuality from a sex partner for over a decade, then for all you know they're sharing basically nothing about themselves and you don't really have any reason to think you know them at all.

I wonder if that's really going on, because the whole "can bisexuals be monogamous" question seems like it's been done to death, so it seems a little odd that someone who reads Savage Love wouldn't already know that.

@31: Any time, in this context.

But I don't see much inherent incompatibility between your position and Seandr's--bisexuality isn't a big deal, but keeping a huge secret--so huge that it's a whole identity--for (holy shit) ten years of marriage? Huge deal.

If my wife had kept a secret like that for the last ten years, I'd probably be having "holy shit, do I even know you?" panic attacks, and with good reason. If the secret wasn't something actually important, I hope I'd have the presence of mind to make it actually about the secret-keeping and not the specifics of whatever the secret was, but panicking people aren't famous for having presence of mind.

...With the important caveat that this isn't a new development. I'm basically speculating here, that the freakout isn't about being bi, it's about keeping one's whole identity secret from a spouse, which is based on the assumption that she'd always known she was bi. If it's something she did just figure out, then well... dude's worrying over nothing. I wish he'd specified whether his wife said she'd always known she was bi, or if she'd just recently noticed that she'd started fantasizing about women.

Eud @33: My position is, maybe she wasn't "keeping it a secret." Maybe she wasn't sure herself. Many women who identify as straight sometimes have same-sex fantasies... isn't that right, Lava? It could be just that, for whatever reason, she reached a stage in her life when these fantasies became overwhelming.

Or maybe she figured it out somewhere along the way, but didn't tell because she correctly foresaw that his insecurities would cause him to doubt her commitment to the marriage. And the marriage was more important than her private fantasies.

Or maybe JOE himself forced the reveal by pressuring his wife to tell him what she fantasises about during sex, and she made the mistake of answering honestly.

If she DID know and just never admitted it, then yeah, that's not cool. But to immediately assume the worst case isn't helpful either.

BFF - your letter (though Dan says he edited it... so who knows) does NOT say that your FWB and your roommate both agreed to not fuck each other when you expressed that it would bother you. Being that you are not in a committed relationship with the FWB... all you can do is express how something would make you feel... but you can hardly feel betrayed if they both chose to ignore you. If i were in your shoes... i'd be inclined to be more irritated at my roommate than my fwb...

All that said... seems the advice you've already been given (to up the ante with the FWB or drop the arrangement altogether) is your only real option (unless you suddenly feel okay with all of this after you stop partying so much...)

The JOE letter is tricky, isn't it? I agree with seandr.... that a withheld identity secret is a serious thing... and JOE's fears aren't irrational. When we talk about sexuality... we tend to go overboard with our support or our rejection. But if my wife told me she was an orphan... then her parents suddenly showed up at my door after 10 years... i'd be filled with anxiety and self-doubt too....

JOE - if you happen to join us in the forum... perhaps you can clarify what some of the other posters have wondered: was this a new revelation for your wife... or something that she finally felt comfortable sharing? And don't listen to the commenters telling you to arrange a threesome. Not with so many doubts in your head. You may one day be able to go there... but if you do it too soon... you are in for a world of hurt.

Okay, granting that it's scary to deal with new information after a decade of marriage, but it does at least show some level of communication within the marriage now.

I'm curious about a turn of phrase JOE used: "it is always in the back of my head."

To me, that says either:
a) JOE may has some obsessive tendencies, which may show themselves in other ways, and maybe even if he is managing to have a normal life he would be happier getting some help dealing with these obsessive tendencies, or

b) JOE brain may be doing some behind-the-scenes work to get him sexually excited by his wife's revelations. (My brain works that way, so I know it's possible.)

How do other people see that sentence? Does it mean that this is too much of a stumbling block for their marriage, and he should seriously consider walking away over this?

EricaP - I read that sentence as insecurity... and perhaps he is simply worried that he can't be enough for his wife...

This is a tricky one and i think he would do well to see a therapist. The delicate thing to navigate is to avoid making his wife feel horrible about herself for this revelation. For him, he needs to rebuild some trust.... but he needs to be careful not to make that trust a response to the CONTENT of the revelation... but rather... that there was something so intertwined in his wife's psyche that he knew nothing about. i.e She is bi, that is ok. She kept a secret that has unraveled him a bit... that is okay (for him to feel rattled... he doesnt have to hide that and feel crazy)

personally.. advising him to walk away from the marriage never even crossed my mind. They just need to rebuild some trust. She probably needs to trust him again too... if she finally revealed something that she was never willing to admit before... and he reacted poorly... then he has work to do too...if they love each other.

Re BFF, yes, I agree with those saying that if you don't like the choices you make when you've been drinking, that it makes sense to cut down on your drinking. But you can't make that decision for anyone else. So even if it bugs BFF that two other people get drunk and have sex together, there's really not much she can do to prevent that. She can only control herself.

BFF wrote these two conflicting statements: "He thinks we're just friends" and "he hasn't shared how he feels."

To me, that says that she does know how he feels, and isn't willing to accept his feelings.

She should be working on that. Whatever she decides to do with the information, she should at any rate accept that he doesn't have romantic feelings for her and that he is going to have sex with agreeable people when he so chooses.

@34: Yeah, there's an assumption that has to be made--since the letter doesn't say--and which way it goes changes everything.
Option A: She knew she was bi from the beginning, but kept it secret for a fucking decade of marriage. Wow.
Option B: She's recently either started having fantasies about women, or decided that her fantasies about women were significant enough to be worth mentioning--or anything else like that, since the key word here is "recently."

I don't really see anything that militates toward one assumption or the other. Making the first assumption, he's having a completely natural freakout like people have any time someone yanks the rug out from under them. Making the second one, he's having a boring "can bisexuals be monogamous" freakout.

Both assumptions seem equally plausible, and I think the people arguing based on Option A are basically correct about what follows from A, and the people making assumption B are basically correct about what follows from B. I think I've gone both ways in different posts.

@35: Good point. I assumed something about that was in the longer version, but if she just ordered two free agents not to sleep with each other... yeah, it's not surprising that this wasn't obeyed. I'm impressed that she took the reasonable lesson from that, though; it's rare, because it's difficult.

I see the rule as being: One's feelings are an excellent source of information about yourself. They are a terrible source of information about anything outside yourself.

i re-read JOE's letter again... and i think my opinion is adjusted slightly. If my wife told me she often fantasized about women (or black men, or tall men, or short fat guys- basically any other type but me-on a regular basis-emphasis on "regular basis") in order to come while fucking me... i'd be pretty heart broken. For me, one of the things that is very important in a relationship is that i feel sexy for my partner. It is one thing for JOEs wife to have some fantasies... but to need those fantasies on a regular basis in order to enjoy sex with JOE.... damn... i'm sorry JOE. That must have been quite a ding on your own self-esteem. I'm all for fantasies... i love hearing what my partner thinks about... but if she needed to think about something i could not possibly provide all the time while fucking me.... sigh

Venn - [To BDF @9] I thank you for pointing out an inherent advantage of OS, one which is largely behind how I've long thought that B-S is an easier fit than B-L or B-G.
I think the real difference is between OS and SS - in the latter, you can be attracted to the same person, and fantasize about them together, but not in the former. This SS advantage may be a bonus from a bi in a straight relationship, while the OS conflict of interest may not be so welcome from a bi in a gay relationship. In short, I'd call it a gay advantage.

Chairman - JOE's fears aren't irrational
I don't see how you can draw this conclusion. It seemed that he was saying that bisexuals are likely to cheat, and in this case I would say that his fear is irrational, orientation has nothing to do with cheating. It does seem that the exhausting talks and over two years of digesting the issue has not clarified the announcement, which does seem like a problem. What was she hoping for when she brought it up? Did she really want a secondary relationship, or a threesome, or to fantasize about a woman together, and you couldn't be comfortable with this despite the exhaustive talks? Did she always need to fantasize about women, or was that a recent effect of a declining sex life? I have heard about bored bi women seeing SS activity as a 'safe' outlet to an OS marriage. If it were a recent development, it seems to point toward a declining marital sex life. If it preexisted the marriage, she wanted to come out of the closet after the guilt of hiding was too overwhelming, after 10 years? she may never have been attracted, or is cripplingly insecure. The point I'm trying to get at, is that there may be no clear reason for her feelings, but she expected some response from choosing to come out, and the guy seems to think it was a warning that she'll cheat. And he could be right, but if so, it isn't because "she's bi thus cheats". It's because he's not enough for her. That can be fixable.

EricaP - I see the turn of phrase in question as "I know this is important, and I don't understand it well enough"

Philo - i have a similar experience in my life as JOE...so i was definitely reading between the lines. If JOE is hung up on bisexuality specifically... it may be irrational....but i myself read the problem as his wife having a fantasy he cannot himself fulfill... and he wonders if that means that some day...she will fulfill if on her own.

@BiDanFan: All I can say is that I'd be plenty happy to enter a relationship with an out bi woman, but I would be quite hurt to learn 10 years into my relationship that my partner was hiding her sexuality from me, and on top of that, she reveals that all those orgasms I assumed resulted from her sexual attraction/connection to me were in fact the result of her attraction to women. Then again, maybe I'm an anachronism for linking sex in a relationship so closely with emotional intimacy.

As a practical matter, this guy won't be able to move on until someone validates his emotions around this. Unfortunately, he's come to the wrong place for that.

seandr - "maybe I'm an anachronism for linking sex in a relationship so closely with emotional intimacy"

I'm the exact same way. It is what it is... I have no desire to change it... it feels too good to me...though it leaves me open more heartbreak in general...

To those who say she came late to the realization that she was bi, yes, that's certainly possible, although I'm inclined to believe the fantasies started pretty early on, even if she wasn't ready to label it "bisexuality". To the extent that there was no intent to deceive, the wife's moral standing certainly improves, although I'm not sure deceiving others should be considered completely harmless just because you believed your own lie.

From a practical perspective, however, I'd say the "late bloomer" scenario worsens the prognosis for this marriage. There are a lot women who's sexuality arrives late, sometimes 10-15 years into a marriage, and more often than not, their sexual debut is accompanied by the realization that hubby no longer fits into the picture. If you think about it, it would take quite a stroke of luck for a woman with no idea what she's attracted to to end up marrying a man who happens to work for her once she's figured out her tastes.

I've gotten to know a few such women, and I would not want to be in their husbands' shoes, piled up over there in the corner of the bedroom closet.

I read JOE as being garden-variety insecure where bisexuality is concerned, in that he, as comprising only half of what his wife finds sexually desirable, is unlikely to be able to satisfy her and that she will ultimately cheat to satisfy her curiosity/need for a female partner, and as being given very good specific and not garden-varitey grounds to be insecure and hurt and bewildered if his wife says that in order to orgasm, she has had to fantasize about being with someone else "often" while the two of them are having sex. In the case of that last statement, it doesn't really matter whether the object of her fantasy is male or female--the point is that the only way she can get aroused enough to come when she's having sex with her husband is by fantasizing about someone else.

Now, many people undoubtedly do this from time to time, even if they don't tell their spouses and even if the fantasy objects conform to their publicly-acknowledged sexual orientation. I guess the issues are:

1) Does she need to fantasize about someone other than her husband in order to come every time or most of the time?
2) Is this a relatively new fantasy that might be temporarily consuming her, and if so,
(a) will it burn itself off in time if unaddressed or will it get more and more urgent over time if
left unsatisfied?
(b) If she has a chance to fulfill it, will that quell the obsession or will she discover that it is
indeed what she desires above having sex with her husband?
3) Why did the wife tell the lw this? To hurt him? Because she thought he'd think it was hot? To signal to him how much this desire means to her because she rightly feared he might not want to let her explore her attraction to women? Did he ask her a direct question which she answered honestly, or did she volunteer this information?

As far as "what did she know and when did she know it" is concerned here, there are, as BiDanFan, CMDwannabe, and others have pointed out, many reasons that she could not have told her husband before she did. People change, people decide to confront and accept things about themselves that weren't in their personal narratives, people fear losing the people they love, etc. To focus on putting blame on the wife for not disclosing her bisexuality earlier is counter-productive; they're here, and this is happening now. They love each other (or at least the lw loves his wife), she wants to have sex with a woman, he is afraid to let her do that, either because strict monogamy is very important to him, regardless of the gender of the person or persons his wife wishes to have sex with that aren't him. or because his wife desires women in particular.
Step one: get all that stuff ^ sorted out.

I though Seandr's point was just "We should stop telling the husband that he's awful."

Which, given that he's just had a fairly shitty thing happen to him which is not his fault, seems legit. Our default response should stop being "Shame the unlucky for their bad luck," even though our hodgepodge monkey-wiring makes us terrified of failing to apply stigma because it believes that failing to do so risks tainting ourselves with it.

@46: Which is to say: Yes, agreed. Possibility #2 makes it more "Husband (and possibly Wife) suffered a misfortune highly likely to damage their marriage" while Possibility #1 means "Husband just learned that his marriage was founded on high-level dishonesty."

Different situations, but neither one's good for the husband.

Eud- neither one is good for the wife either... I am sure she would prefer not to be in this situation.... where there is any confusion in their marriage. Most rational people would prefer the source of the pain and confusion was gone... rather than having to inflict pain and confusion on a loved one... I say that somewhat lightly... as i am certain someone will immediately point out a flaw in that logic. I just know that when faced with something that i know with certainty will cause someone i love a great deal of distress... if i had the option of forgetting the whole thing (in a healthy way that did not undermine my own happiness)... i'd probably take it more often than not

Ms Phile - Yes, I should have specified OS relationships; I know I've commented often enough about inherent advantages of SS relationships.

*****

Ms Cute - Very good cross-examination.

*****

Ms Fan - Yes, I thought of plenty of reasons for why the disclosure happened when it did, and her keeping a secret was not near the top of the list.

*****

Mr Chair - I am at least half inclined to advise that they divorce amicably before they start hating each other, as I'm getting strong cosmic vibrations that that's what's coming.

Mr Monic - I'm curious; how do you account for the few years between the disclosure and the letter?

@venn 52: I'm not sure what you mean by "account?"

I'm also curious why JOE is writing Dan now. The disclosure was "a few years ago". He says the doubts are in his head. I'm curious if they manifest themselves in how he treats his wife - however subtly...

Oh, I get it. If he writes too soon, he wrote too soon and is therefore being dramatic about something that might blow over. Therefore, he's demonstrating weakness, and we should shame him.
If he writes too late, he must account for his laxity. Which is weakness, so we punish it. In this case, by accusing him of mistreating his wife.

Okay, I'll call your bluff: Is there ever a time when a male human being is permitted to experience emotions about painful things that happen to him?

If so, when is it?

I added the "human being" part because we seem to persistently forget that part.

Yes Fan, one can come late to being aroused by fantasies about women, and though I haven't taken myself to a woman's bar yet, it stays an option in my mind.
And yes Erica, JOE saying it's always at the back of my mind, does seem exhausting for this guy. Yet, isn't fear of betrayal maybe sometime at the back of a lot of people's minds?
If JOEs wife came out as Bi to him a few yrs ago.. Who knows how many yrs ago that is? It may have been six yrs, or eight. If he had felt upset at the time, then would have been the time to end it if he felt betrayed by her late disclosure.
Let's be honest here people.. Those who have been in relationships for a long time, how many of you latch onto some very erotic scenario in your heads to come? You Always, after many yrs of monogamous marriage, Still only think of your partner.. How much this person who only yesterday was really pissing you off re xxx, is the only only person who is in one's mind at the point of orgasm?
We have no idea how often his wife goes to other women in her mind.
If she was happy to recommit, then what is JOEs problem? She is forgoing an impulse in herself. She is being a Good and Proper wife.

Jesus Mr E. That broken record of yours is really, really, Really getting boring.

Lava, your chauvinist bullshit is really, really, really boring too. But I usually manage not to complain about it.

Um....Eud.... resist the temptation to crusade about this particular guy. The letter is way too short... and i dont see all that many people attempting to vilify him anyway. It IS definitely curious that he would write to Dan after "a few years". So... what prompted it? all the recent discussion about Ashley Madison/etc? A personal event where he caught his wife checking out a nice rack? Or after a few years...it just finally became a question he needed answered?

I don't see this as an irreconcilable difference myself. Hell... if it were me... (after i got over the initial surprise..which should certainly not take more than a few months max) i'd probably take advantage of the revelation in a monogamy-way... by telling my partner i pleasured myself at the thought of [insert specific but random woman here - a sexy cashier?] going down on her.... or by talking dirty to her about it while i fucked her... hmmmmm

A man gets run over by a car, crushing both his legs. He says "Ow."

We devote almost 100% of our energy telling him he was wrong to say "ow," and how rude it was to say "ow," and how uncomfortable it must have made his wife to hear him say "ow." Most of the remainder of our energy goes into speculating about how hard it must be for his wife, given that his broken legs will make it harder for him to help her around the house. And how terrible it must be for her, being married to someone so pathetic as to say "ow" when his legs are crushed. What a saint she must be, to tolerate such rudeness.

@59: Obviously, as he said in the letter, he tried talking it out and hoped it would stop bothering him, and after years it became obvious that that wasn't working, so he wrote in.

But he's a man, and he's not happy, and he broke the rules by saying something about it, so we must find some reason to criticize him, I guess, no matter what.

was his wife driving the car? ;)

Mr E, I love men. I see that they on the whole are miles and miles and miles behind women in their development. Is that my fault? No it is not. You go scream at nature for that. I still love men, and forgive them. Hey, they not at fault either.

Just don't hijack the thread with your poor boys diatribe, Please Mr E.

And it's true. Who wants some whinging male around the house, complaining about his broken legs. Can't help with a bloody thing. His dick still works though, right? I mean if All of him was out of action for too long, a replacement for that time would be in order, yeah?

Eudamonic, thank you!

Eud - that is a lot to read into his thoughts just from the line about exhausting the topic of threesomes. I have a ton of empathy and compassion for JOE. I can relate to his situation both personally and by proxy.... but... he didn't say he tried talking it out and hoped it would stop bothering him. I agree those things are certainly likely... but you yourself hate it when other commenters invent facts not in evidence..., no?

He's a man. He's not happy (or perhaps saying he has over-riding anxiety and insecurity about this..both totally understandable and without fault... is a better choice). He wrote SL...and is trying to learn something more about his situation and himself hopefully. And if we take what his wife told him at face value and accept it as truth (that she is bi and she is in love with him and enjoys their sex life)... then he just needs to exhale.... and not try to "solve" a problem that doesnt exist outside of his inner thoughts...

Honestly Mr E. What country you from? Oh that's right.
A man saying something? You mean men over there don't say something about how they feeling , often and loudly?
I'm moving.

So. How could JOE handle this situation, apart from locking the chastity belt one
More time and throwing away the key?

Ms Lava - Miles and miles? Oh, dear.

*****

Mr Monic - I found your use of the word "just" interesting, and thought the context of your post was time-related, as if the disclosure were something you considered as being in the very recent past. If you meant "just" as in something that happened without any foreseeable cause or apparent explanation, then there's no need for the question.

Since 69 is taken I’d like to take the all-way compassionate position and argue that both JOE and wife are in a very vulnerable position.
It is possible that they both grew up in a somewhat uptight environment, they only dated each other, their sexual desires are not something they’re ok talking about and so on.

I can see how the wife coming out can be devastating to the Mr: How much did she know about her tendencies when we’ve first met? I’ve only loved her; she’s likely to leave me if she starts dating women, what’s with kids if she leaves?

The wife may feel equally uncomfortable: I had to figure it out on my own, I thought there’s something wrong me but I can’t shake it off. I love my husband and tried to tell him…
The best advice I’d give JOE is to find a way to discuss all this again with the wife, see what’s important to each and how to accommodate desires and boundaries. It can be done with the aid of a professional mediator, few days hiking trip (no guns allowed,) or ask Ricardo for some smokable stuff.

Friend code: Thou shalt not bang mine FWB. It's pretty standard protocol that roommates and best friends do not bang your bangees without explicit permission. Drunken threesome may have temporarily lowered those boundaries, but BFF put them right back up. Best friend/roommate fucked up. This happened to me. I dropped the FWB, made sure my friend/housemate and I were still in agreement about those boundaries and forgave her. One bang of a casual should not undo years of friendship.

However, FWB has to go. First, because he is obviously a moron. Any man who genuinely thinks it's a good idea to screw two best friends and/or housemates is colossally stupid. There are so many red flags waving in that situation. DRAMA. (As an aside, just because something isn't illegal doesn't mean it's smart. Do not shit where you eat. Just don't do it.) Second, he doesn't care about you that way. He wouldn't do that if he did. And even if you were to magically transform him into your boyfriend (hot tip: you won't) then you have to stress about him not-fucking your best friend. Who happens to be your housemate. No no no no no. There's plenty of dick in the sea. Go find some fresh.

@60 - I don't know who these 'our' and 'we' people are that you keep bleating about. If a dude gets run over and winds up with broken legs, I'm certainly not going to berate him for saying fucking "ow". JFC where do you even come up with these ridiculous scenarios?

I only read the first 20 or so replies, but for LW1, there were no violations at all - you don't get a vote on who your FWB's sleep with. That's sort of the definition of FWB's. (You do get a vote on safe sex practices.)

@60 I'm not sure I am close to any women who view men as emotional lesser-thans who aren't allowed to feel and express those feelings without reprimand. There really are people out there who don't regard the world of emotion as gender-specific and don't berate their fellow humans for being participants in that world.

I personally get tired of all the "men always..." or "women always..." and etc judgments (thought I understand it can FEEL that way): while I think that yes, there may be some specific conditioned differences between the ways both genders are encouraged to behave, at the end of the day, most people don't like being lied to and don't like feeling they've been led on and/or put into a position in which their best interests weren't being protected - especially if put into that position by someone who is ostensibly there to support and care.

Was JOE's wife fully bisexual from the get-go, did she make a conscious effort to omit that detail because, say, he's the breadwinner and she wanted a comfortable life? Or, do people develop and go on internal journeys that sometimes lead to unexpected discoveries and is this the case here? Or....like, 7 million other possibilities. It's JOE's place to figure out what exactly the situation is but whatever the facts are and whatever his conclusions ultimately are, how he feels about it is pretty much all he has to go on at the end of the day and he has a right, as do we all, to feel as well as examine those feelings.

I don't understand people's difficulty with JOE's timeline, or the criticism that if he found out his wife fantasizes about women while having sex with him, it's taken him "a few years" to write to Dan.
Here's his letter for reference:
Straight man, married for 12 years, love my wife very much. We have a great relationship, and I cannot see myself being with anyone else. A few years ago, she came out to me as bisexual. At the time, it hit me harder than I would have expected. Part of the reason was she explained that she often fantasizes about women when we have sex in order to come. She says she is attracted to me and loves our sex life. We have exhausted the topic of bringing someone else into our relationship and recommitted to monogamy. Is it inevitable that she will cheat to satisfy her curiosity? She says she wouldn't, and I have to trust that, but it is always in the back of my head. What do I do?

Maybe, even though the news that she is bi hit him harder than he would have expected when she told him years ago, he's been hoping that he would feel differently about it over time. Instead, he suggests that the fear she'll leave him for a woman has been eating away at him as a possibility for this whole time ("Is it inevitable that she will cheat to satisfy her curiosity? She says she wouldn't, and I have to trust that, but it is always in the back of my head" and he finally has decided to try and address it more proactively.

Also, presumably for the past several years they have talked about bringing someone else into their relationship and appear to have only recently decided that that isn't the direction they want their marriage to take.

So in many ways it's back to that moment of revelation for JOE. And hence he is writing to a sex and relationship advice columnist.

Jesus Christ--lighten up, JOE! Your wife sounds like a saint.

@69 LavaGirl: Yeek---there are already far too many guys out there seeking to lock the chastity belts on women's vaginas and throw away the key. In the United States, they're known as corporate Republicans.

Dan the Man---I LOVED your response to THINK!

JOE's wife has recommitted. She didn't go say, Mr Ps way, who declared to Erica that he wanted to have other relationships.
She has recommitted. He can't make her mind go in a different direction from where her impulses take it, it is Her mind. He could just relax, accept that she deals with her bi sexuality thru fantasy, and maybe even ask her to share those fantasies, if he is brave enough.
Will this impulse just get stronger and stronger, she has told him of her fantasies during sex.. Is she going to get to a point where she only thinks about women when she orgasms with him?
She doesn't say she is Bi curious, she says she is Bi.
No mention of any children, so why not look to open the relationship?
Or he could just have that nagging doubt at the back of his mind the rest of their time together.

nocutename @47
> the only way she can get aroused enough to come when she's having sex with her husband is by fantasizing about someone else. >

I don't know how other people's bodies work. But generally speaking I don't orgasm without a specific fantasy running in my head, where the setting and the characters vary wildly, but almost all the time I'm being controlled and forced into sex, often by multiple people at once, in multiple orifices. Charming, I know.

Over time, Mr. P has taken more of an interest in the various shenanigans and scenery I roll out to populate this recurring fantasy. And when he expresses an interest, I take more care to give him a starring role, and to include extras he's likely to find interesting.

I'm happy with the way I orgasm. And I'm happy to talk dirty about my partner's fantasies in the lead-up to his orgasm. It's not that people whose brains work like mine are not "aroused" enough by our partners. We're just different.

Ms Cute - It's not a question of criticism; what we aren't being told could be innocuous or could be a case of why it took Dr Shepard ten or fifteen minutes after leaving Roger Ackroyd's house to meet the stranger at the gate. Various plausible possibilities have been advanced. The letter has skimped a bit on information. I could guess that there were two or three sentences edited out between "Part of the reason is..." and "She says she is..." because all the evidence offered is that it hit him hard due at least in part to her having made an unfortunate inclusion in the revelation and that the topic of bringing someone else into the relationship has been exhausted, meaning that there is a good deal omitted, and his seeming to jump directly from the revelation and her fantasies to what she's saying now.

I often get a sense of how I would direct a letter if I were making it a novel; here there are too many choices, and nothing clear is coming to me. There are traces as well of the dog that didn't bark in the night (why would LW not mention a period of trying to feel differently about the revelation?) - or are we just not being told that the dog did bark? I'm thinking now that there's probably an editing issue here - or else LW is one of the most vague people on the planet.

I haven't read all the comments but I'm jumping in anyway. I feel for both JOE and his wife, and I think it's really hard to judge them without knowing all the details of their sexual histories.
I've been in a monogamous relationship with my husband for 21 years. He was only my second boyfriend and I was his first relationship. We have frequent passionate sex even after all this time, but I do know that he is bicurious and, if he had lived a different life, might have had a much more varied and interesting sex life! In a situation like this it's just silly to accuse anyone of keeping secrets. Back when we got together I don't think either of us were able to articulate our desires and we really grew up together.
It's only in the last few years that we've talked about this, although I find it very hard to talk about apart from during sex. I'm as GGG as I can be with him and about half of the times we have sex, he climaxes while I'm talking to him about his fantasies of sex with men, which is actually quite a lot of fun, also he enjoys being mildly humiliated which is closely associated with his same-sex fantasies. I have told him that if he wants to go outside our relationship and have sex with men it's okay, but I just want him to be honest. He says he's thought about it but it's a pretty scary prospect. He has told me that he prefers it as a fantasy, but of course I frequently wonder if he is missing out on the life he wants and if I should raise the topic again. But I really don't want to go on about it, after all he is a grownup and can speak for himself. Our sex life in the last few years, since having children, has improved dramatically and I thought it was great before - in my 40s my libido has increased a lot and we enjoy sex together more than ever.
I don't want to have sex with other people, which I guess complicates things rather than simplifies them. I don't know how I really would respond if he did go outside our marriage for sex, even if I'm theoretically okay with it. Also, we have very little spare time and money!
There's never been a moment when I realised "oh my God, he's bisexual" it has been more of a gradual revelation over time articulating fantasies during sex. So I guess I'm not in the LW's position of being told something out of the blue. I guess it's so hard for me to know, out of staying monogamous or opening the relationship for him, which is the worst option. From my perspective I feel like he absolutely adores me and our family, and I feel the same way about him.

@79: EricaP, I respectfully suggest that there is a vast difference between you and Mr. P. and your marriage and JOE's wife, and the lw and their marriage≥

For one thing, your husband is no stranger to considering alternative sexual models to the "one true love for lifelong monogamy" model, and furthermore, I assume that you have always known your own kink and also known the level of mental engagement you need to orgasm.

Surely you are aware that there are people who view their partner's watching porn to be akin to infidelity; misguided as you or I may think that is, it's a fact we have to acknowledge. This is a bit like that, except that in this case, it's not that the lw's wife needs to think of women when she masturbates in order to come; she needs to think of women (presumably in a not-so-kinky way, or I'm sure we'd have been told that detail) while she's having sex with her insistent-upon-monogamy-and-threatened-by-bisexuality husband in order to come.

So for him, it's a huge act of rejection. You and your husband are likely more secure in the attachment you both have to each other as well as being more open-minded about what is acceptable sexual behavior. It's kind of unfair for you to compare yourself, your husband, and your marriage to JOE and his.
It's like he's riding a tricycle around the block and you're riding a unicycle in the Tour de France. Advice from you may be inspiring, but you have to acknowledge the differences in virtuosity between the two of you before you can start comparing yourself and your experiences.

I said in my original post that obviously all of us from time to time indulge in fantasies starring people other than our S.O.'s while we're having sex. But this seems to be beyond that, and it sounds like the wife hasn't said "look, I have to have a pretty elaborate mental fantasy going in order to come--don't let it bother you; I find you incredibly arousing and sexy, but I've always needed this. I'll put you in the fantasy, too, and maybe we can role play it." It sounds more like she's said something like, "Joe, I really, really, REALLY want to have sex with a woman. I want it so much that the only way I can come when you and I are having sex is to imagine that I'm having sex with a woman. I love you, but this is a giant need of mine I want to fulfill."

A unicycle in the Tour de France - that's very good.

@83: Mr. Ven, thank you. I find myself rather abashedly grinning from ear to ear at that praise from you.

Told Him I'm Not Kinky:

It also means you're a basket case when it comes to the slightest bit of spice in the bedroom. Personally, you saying "I'm not at all kinky" to me would be the end of a relationship. If he's actually kinky (really, really likely, because most men are it seems), then he needs to be honest with himself about his own needs and not be such a chickenshit.

End of First Day/Trend Alert:

Most comments go to JOE with early sympathizers almost exclusively divided along genital lines.

Men feel cheated and insecure; women think Ms JOE did all she could when she knew it.  Aunt Zelda is deeply moved by the pope’s visit, she includes both “Jesus” and “saint” in her first line.

Meanwhile on Yom Kippur a Jewish lady from the bay area that likes to go commando has crossed the line and became a strong advocate for Mr. JOE. Venn seems to like it, or so she thinks.

A new approach offering love and understanding to both Ms and Mr J is lead by ordinary folks like you and me who chime in with their real-life experiences. I find their openness with their lovers and with us to be almost as inspiring as the acts themselves.
No more than 282 this week.

JOE -- Just tell your wife that it's okay, you totally understand where she's coming from. Just like her, you also need to think about fucking other women while you are fucking her, in order to be able to come.

I get the impression that quite a lot of fraught conversation got boiled down into the seemingly innocuous line, "We have exhausted the topic of bringing someone else into our relationship and recommitted to monogamy." That would explain quite a bit -- if, hypothetically, his wife followed up her revelation of being unable to come from him by inquiring repeatedly ("exhaustively?") about what it would take to make her fantasy happen for real -- both in terms of why it took so long for JOE to write in, as well as why this continues to bother him. Perhaps it has been a topic of conversation for a while now.

Chairman @36: There are commenters telling JOE to have a threesome? OK, number two. And let me just say that what every bi girl wants is to be invited to have a threesome involving someone who is definitely not OK with their partner fooling around with someone else in front of them. NOT.

Sean @44: I agree that I'd be hurt too by the revelation that a partner was frequently fantasising about something else while having sex with me, or needed that fantasy in order to come. Not saying JOE's reaction to that isn't appropriate.

Eud @48: Who told JOE he was awful?

Jibe @54: I read the letter as they have been discussing the possibilities of opening their marriage, but have now come to an agreement that they won't. So JOE is afraid she will ignore this agreement and cheat. That's why he wrote now.

Eud @55: Well, I guess yesterday was the one day a year for you to be reasonable. Advising someone on how to process negative feelings -- and move past them, because isn't that what LWs want? -- is not shaming them for having them. Sheesh. Read @71.

CMD @86: Could the division of sympathies also fall neatly along straight/bisexual lines?

Ms Cute - Well, I did wonder whether you really meant Cirque du Soleil, but the Tour de France is quite a good image. I hope Ms Sissou is doing well.

*****

Ms Fan - an interesting closing point, and I like "possibilities" specifically as a plural. Are you receiving any cosmic vibrations on when the discussion started, why LW didn't seek outside help for the discussion process, and/or who wanted what?

@89: Yup, precisely two people in this thread at that point deviated from the tradition of making the thread all about criticizing the victim's response. It just gets so boring how, when the letter's from a woman, we talk about the problem; when the letter's from a man, almost no talks about anything other than how terrible his gender-role performance is.

Look, we get it. You all love gender roles and desperately hate men who don't perform theirs perfectly. We really get it. Maybe don't have every thread involving a man be about that? Like, there are lots of things to talk about other than the various imperfections in his gender role performance.

Let's just take it as given: When unhappy, men are obligated to shut up. Under no circumstances are we allowed to say anything about it, much less act hurt when we're hurt. We get it. How about, from now on, you all just assume that everyone already knows this sometimes let the conversation be about something else once in a while?

You don't need to constantly suppress compassion, there already isn't any of that for men. You've won. Move on.

Eud @91: Would any of this be different if it were a straight woman whose husband came out as bi in exactly the same circumstances? Nope. If anything, I'd be even more sympathetic to a bi man who'd remained closeted 10 years into a marriage, because being bi and male is vilified more than being bi and female. See comment @2 for evidence of this. Anyhow, it's you who's determined to make every man into a martyr. "JOE's wife isn't horrible" does not equate to "JOE is horrible." No one horrible here. Just two people with different desires trying to reach an understanding.

Venn @90: I can make any guesses you like, some of which, given my experience as a bi woman once married to a monogamous straight man, will of course be sympathetic towards the bi woman married to the monogamous straight man in JOE's scenario. I agree with CMD @71 that they're both probably from a conservative background and have little to no sexual experience besides each other. As to what event might have spurred JOE's wife's disclosure, I really have no idea. Did JOE ask about her fantasies? Did she meet a woman in real life who expressed an interest in her? Did some other family member come out as queer? Could be anything. Why didn't JOE seek outside help? I'm betting on the conservative background, and shame he couldn't be all his wife wanted. Who initiated the multiple discussions? Probably the one who was hoping to redefine the rules of the relationship, ie Mrs JOE. Was her recommitment to monogamy a reluctant one? Having been there, I'd say that's likely. But also having been there, I know a reluctant commitment can still be a firm one.

@92: "Would any of this be different if it were a straight woman whose husband came out as bi in exactly the same circumstances? Nope."

Right, now we're entering the phase of the conversation when, once called on it, the participants falsely claim they'd act the same if the genders were reversed. Notably, when the genders are reversed, they do not act the same.

Dear gender role police: Do you really think that I don't remember any of the other threads? That I don't remember that no one devotes entire threads to gender-role-policing women? Or that I haven't noticed the pattern that you guys do this every time there's a man involved in the letter in any way? Wow.

Do you think I just didn't notice that you never do this to women, or permit it to be done to them?

"Anyhow, it's you who's determined to make every man into a martyr."

Har har. It's hilarious how you guys always think that the best response to being called on bullshit gender role policing is to gender-role-police the person who called you on it. Whenever someone says that y'know, maybe witch hunts aren't a good idea, you guys always think accusing the speaker of witchcraft is the cleverest thing in the world.

@66: Thank you too. This is why I do it. Everyone deserves to know that someone remembers that they're a human being.

I do this for everyone, but only catch shit for it when the Designated Targets at the time are men. Oddly, when I speak up for bisexual women, for instance, no one flips their shit or gender-role polices me. Funny, that. Apparently sometimes it's acceptable to believe that all people are people, but other times not so much.

@89: "Well, I guess yesterday was the one day a year for you to be reasonable."

When you're defending your basic humanity, I'm on your side. When you're attacking someone else's basic humanity, I'm not on your side. This shouldn't be so hard for you to figure out, particularly if you understand that basic humanity is not zero sum. All people are people.

The fact that you're a product of a culture that believes some kinds of people aren't entitled to basic humanity apparently makes this hard for you to see, but that's not not much of an excuse. When someone says bigoted bullshit, I say something about it. I don't ignore it when it's targeting someone I don't like, because even shitty people are still people.

There was a letter ages ago from a gay guy whose perfect man partner, a bi man, was looking to go back out there and hook up with women. I do Not remember any one suggesting the bi guy should close down his desire. Rather, I think the LW was confronted for being so bug eyed re his perfect man.
So please Ms Henry, Ms Henry please, as BobbyDylan sang, This has nothing to do with gender, it's to do with truth. No? People being truthful.
JOEs wife calls herself bisexual because she has fantasies of being with women, couldn't she be, like@81 Busy's husband, just erotized by the fantasy of going with women, the taboo of it all?
That the impulse is not strong enough for JOE's wife to really act on? And what if JOE , like Busy does, plays this fantasy out loud with her during sex,
Goes into it with her, joins her in it and gives her permission to have this mind play. Just like Busy does with her man.

You really aren't very bright are you Mr E? Drag out the same old mish mash of words over and over.
" When you show humanity I'm on your side. "Blah blah blah. A failed scriptwriter for a daily soap, is that you?

Chairman [43] - I've definitely declined to fulfill a fantasy or two or more. For me, it's meant incompatibility, or my partner was initiating badly. My hope in these cases is that he can manage to do what he needs to without bothering me, or up his game extremely and find a way to cater to my interests to get a yes. I do not expect and would not tolerate ill treatment because of my sexual preferences. I would not expect to be cheated on or lied to, afterward. Why did you fear that? Or was the fear that someday, the pressure would build so high she'd divorce you unless she got a pass? But... I don't want to be with someone who would be miserable with me; I'd rather they leave. If someone says they would rather be with you than another, even though you're not a perfect match, isn't that normal? Something you just have to trust because you never REALLY know what another person wants?

I've never been too upset about a guy declining to fulfill a fantasy of mine. Just if he gives stupid reasons or tries to justify it beyond "not my thing". I talk about expectations early, though.

I think it's most reasonable for JOE to fear that his wife may not be as sexually inviting as he needs for good sex. For whatever reason, he mistrusts her, and the situation is not improving. Both seem unwilling to step up their game. Dan answered the easy old question "Does bisexual mean you HAVE to sleep with everyone you're attracted to?" For more they probably need counseling.

I had to look up what emotional intimacy meant in wikipedia. So y'all prefer trusting and comfortable sex. Sounds like it could get boring. Although JOE has his own problems with how his wife shook things up. I like my own middle ground. Refusal to bow to routine along with some mutually acceptable courtesy re initiation.

Maybe I've been reading the comments wrong, but I don't get a strong gender-division reaction to JOE's predicament. I also don't understand the rush to blame one or the other in the couple--what good does that do?

I think JOE needs to take his wife at her word that she's committed to being monogamous. I also think that for the sake of the health of the marriage, as well as each's own well-being, it would be a good idea for Mrs. JOE either to find a way to be "with" JOE as she orgasms more often, or for the two together to find a way for JOE to at least mentally enter the scenario she's running and be involved.

Like SB and Hunter, Mr E.
Any attention( even negative attention), is better than no attention at all?

Eudaemonic,

Can you be more specific about your claims? In particular, since you are claiming that commenters respond differently to mono/straight LWs with bi partners depending on their gender, you presumably have examples to this effect.

You’re complaining that people are blaming the LW whereas I simply don’t see that — aside from the bit where he needs to realize that he’s hit the jackpot because they are going to have lots and lots of happy happy threesomes. Can you quote lines?

I ask with some trepidation because you are in PTSD mode right now, reacting to things in your mind, and in this state you make lots of Type 1 errors. Since I am quite prepared to believe that I make Type 2 errors though I’m asking you to be specific about what you see that I’ve missed so that I can see it too.

@98: "We have exhausted the topic of bringing someone else into our relationship and recommitted to monogamy. Is it inevitable that she will cheat to satisfy her curiosity?"

I assume these sentences following each other are connected, but I wish he'd explained why. If by "exhausted the topic," he meant "I've asked her over and over for years if she felt compelled to cheat, and she kept saying no, and I finally stopped asking," then dude, chill. JOE is presumably attracted to more than one woman, and probably even more than one kind of woman (whatever that means to him), but presumably understands that this doesn't make monogamy impossible. Applying the same standard to a bisexual isn't rocket science.

If, on the other hand, he means "she kept bringing it up constantly for the last few years, but has finally agreed to stop," then his attack of nerves seems legitimate (there are many, many people who take "No, you can't fuck other people and stay in a monogamous relationship with me" as a license to cheat, and for a variety of reasons this seems to come up more with bisexuals). Someone who demonstrates that they really, really want to fuck other people, for years, and then goes silent about it? Maybe they got over it, maybe they didn't; the behavior of someone who's resigned themselves to monogamy is often identical to the behavior of someone who's given up on having a consensual open relationship, but not on having an open relationship.

The issue is clouded by the monosexuals who don't understand the parallels, and the straight people who don't think lesbian sex is "real" sex, and by the bisexuals who use these beliefs to try to force open relationships on the monogamous, and by monosexuals who've heard too many stories about those, but they're not the default--so in some ways, I think the bisexuality is almost a red herring. Once you filter out the cultural baggage about bi people, it'd be the same if he was short, or tall, and she let on that she was fantasizing about men who were the opposite.