Columns Feb 10, 2016 at 4:00 am

Intropervert Dumps Extropervert

Comments

2
@Hunter: some comments for you over at last week's column.
4
"Ze demanded I stop engaging in BDSM because ze has to see me on campus and knowing my boyfriend "controls and abuses" me is triggering for zir."

This is functionally indistinguishable from the fundamentalist Christian who feels a visceral need to recriminalize anal and oral sex.
5
@3: No; I offered actual experience, as did others. You offered only porn categories.
6
Oh Ze, go talk to the Dom. Even I know that much.
Hunter, next life you can act out all the hot/ cold/ lukewarm wifing you like. For now, like with the rest of us oldies, some decorum, please.
7
@4: What was ze doing on those Tumblrs anyway, if their content is so triggering to zir?
8
@7 I was wondering the same thing. SUB why do you care about this manipulative piece o'shit? If they start crap again just say everything is consensual and ask why they're reading a Tumblr that upsets them so much? Then just ignore them because that's one thing people like this can't stand.
9
@7: No kidding. That, too, is an awful lot like the fundies. For being such righteous, godly folk, boy, you people sure think about and talk about poop a LOT.

I think the next time the subject comes up, instead of comforting zir, LW should roll his eyes and laugh in zer face. "So, you're going to "out" my boyfriend? Hel-loooo... He posts this stuff on a fucking BLOG, you moron. One which even idiots like you manage to find your way to, feast your prurient little eyeballs on, and get yourself all triggered. How much more out can one be? If you don't like what you see on our blog, then DON'T FUCKING READ IT, you single-digit-IQ'd asshole. Now get the fuck out of my face with this bullshit, start minding your own damned business, and never bring it up to me again unless you want a restraining order."

Say that with witnesses, too.
10
oh avast, I couldn't hold back an appreciative chuckle for #9 (thank god I hadn't had a sip of a beverage I'd have done a Danny Thomas spit-take)
11
Okay; the first letter was already a daily; Mr Savage danced around the Gays Can't Be Picky line; Ms Fan and some others thought that LW's already being disenchanted was a bad sign for the relationship anyway, and I thought the relationship seemed likely to be a "straight" one.

*****

For the second letter, I think Trans Woman deserves a particular treatment I have just devised. Some among the assembled company will be familiar with the way it has become fashionable to "no-platform" controversial people by denying them the opportunity to speak. I think TW's outrageous behaviour here has earned TW the well-deserved fate of being "no-pronouned". After all, preferred pronouns, unless people have started objecting to the use of "you" when they are addressed, are mainly to control or correct how A speaks of B to C, which is quite often, barring classroom situations and similar settings, when the person preferring the pronouns isn't in company with the speaker. Without using pronouns contrary to anybody's preference, I think it is perfectly legitimate to indicate sharp disapproval of a pronoun-chooser's conduct simply by refusing to refer to that person by any pronoun. I shall call that person TW for the duration of this post to mark my irritation with TW's conduct.

That said, I must admit that it is tempting to no-pronoun SUB himself. Talk about Dial M For [Rhymes With Boron] - (SUB, not TW; TW was worse)! Only his extreme youth may end up getting SUB a provisional pass. The case itself reminds me of another instance one hears mentioned by MRAs from time to time, a case in which a male university student looked almost exactly like a female student's former rapist (perhaps alleged, perhaps proven). He clearly was not the same person, but the resemblance was so distressing to the young woman that he was required to avoid certain areas of campus, or he was only permitted to go certain places at certain times. TW is the sort of woman who feels entitled to dictate to and to control MM sexuality, and won't be very scrupulous in how TW goes about it. Once upon a time, I remember Dr Boswell refuting a sex-negative feminist's claim about ALL porn degrading women by instancing porn without the presence of or reference to a single woman, but now even that is no surety; the sex-negative crowd are making essentialist claims about MM porn that imply no acknowledgement of variance between MM and MF sex.

SUB, dear, you met with a bully and attempted appeasement. This is the result. Learn from it. I urge you most strongly to no-pronoun TW. Any woman who attempts to dictate your sexuality and forbid you consensual activity that is the delight of you and your partner(s) has earned such treatment. Your comforting TW for TW's assault upon you and your partner, and allowing TW to think that TW's bulling had accomplished TW's aim of bending your sexuality and sexual conduct to TW's will was a grave error. Capitulation will not prevent TW from calling you, your boyfriend or both of you transmisogynist whenever it suits TW's purpose to do so.

(I could well be inclined to wonder which of the pair TW has wanted to date, but it's hardly relevant.)

*****

As for the third letter, I'll differ from Mr Savage and avoid encouraging LW to think in terms of tops and bottoms, the sort of thinking which leads gay men and perhaps lesbians into straight-flavoured relationships - and, if anything, the old-school style of straight, before they learned from us that they didn't have to remain in their confining boxes. If LW had expressed a wish to do so, FTWL.
12
Is the fact that the bully in the second letter is a trans woman important? Would SUB have mentioned the sexual orientation, or the height, or the hair color of a cis woman who made such a "none of your business" fuss in the context of the letter? Did I miss something?
13
I fucking hate social justice bullies like "zir" who use their "oppression" to oppress other people.
14
@12 maybe he felt an explanation for the "ze" /"zir" was needed?
15
Ms Cute - Good question. I'll sleep on it.
16
@11 Are you kidding us? Misgendering is rude and childish when done to cis people. It is fucking cruel to do to trans people. How does "someone is being a controlling jerk due to personal trauma" lead you to "I should be a total shit to them in return!"

People don't "deserve" pronouns or basic human decency. You can of course choose to treat bullies as badly as possible - did ze also lose the right to friends, the right to physical safety, the right to comfortably stay on campus? Why not just sock zir the next time LW sees zir? Start spreading nasty rumors? I mean, it's not like ze deserves to be treated like a person, right? Ze definitely gave up that right when ze tried to bully LW. Hey, maybe if ze has a rape trauma in their past, LW can start cornering the trans person and threaten zir with rape? Ze gave up zir right to feel safe, right? So LW should do everything he can to make zir uncomfortable!

In case my sarcasm isn't clear, that's not some cosmic justice, it's your choice to be a fucking dick.

Petty revenge is all well and satisfying sometimes, but at least keep it relevant and proportional. Ze didn't kill LW's puppy, ze was just kind of a jerk. If LW is feeling vindictive, I recommend badgering the trans person about how triggering zir choice of coat colour is to LW.

But frankly, I see no reason to stoop to the level of bullies. Shouldn't the goal be to *minimize* interactions with people like that?
17
@12: Hmmm. As a thought experiment, recast TW as a starched-shirt-wearing, bicycle-riding, Book of Mormon-carrying, Brylcreem-headed cis male "missionary," and then replay the scenario with everything except perhaps the holding him and comforting him. (Leave in the shaking and crying, though.) What effect would that have on the request that LW give up his own sex life because Missionary Man found it just too triggering to go dial up boyfriend's blog and read all about it?

Nope, still an asshole nutball.

Kidding aside, the reason TW being trans is important is because "triggering" has become an entitlement particularly dear to that demographic.
18
LW #2 - SUB - looks like Dan & others above already gave you great advice: of special note is Mr. Vennominon's saying that you met a bully with appeasement. Take that advice, & don't do that again. If you give someone control over your actions - & not in the hot subbie way, but in the manipulating you with their emotions, way - then that pattern will continue. If ze contacts you again with zir trauma & threats of exposure, do exactly what Dan said. Make sure your conversation with them has a witness / witnesses, & be perfectly clear that the consensual activities that you & your BF indulge in are none of zir damn business. If ze is as freaked out by checking out someone else's Tumblr, then ze shouldn't be online unsupervised &/or shouldn't go looking up things that ze knows will upset them.

The bit about ze being involved with campus queer politics has me concerned that if this isn't handled pronto, ze will use zir position in those groups to cause trouble for you / your BF. Mebbe your BF wouldn't be upset by being further outed, or whatever; ze might then feel the need to contact your/his teachers, roommates, parents, etc. I could be wrong, just, that stripe of drama sounds familiar to me.

Because I'm cynical, my first thought about this situation was that ze had the hots for either you or your kinky bi sweetie, SUB, & that their nosing around & subsequent alleged triggering was zir way of trying to cause trouble between you two. (Oh whoops, Mr. Ven already wondered the same thing! Not surprised.)

Best of luck.

(PS: I've missed you, Sloggers..!)
19
I love the term "bottom boner."
20
M? New - That was largely the point, to find a method of response that was careful NOT to misgendre TW. It has become quite the thing on the university circuit for controversial speakers to be no-platformed because the lines of their speech would be disturbing to the Safe Space policy in place, which is essentially saying that their speech has forfeited their right to be heard. If this is how TW is going to use the respect granted TW through the use of zed pronouns, to bully consenting adults into changing their sexual practices and to threaten someone with outing as retaliation for non-compliance, then I have no problem with suggesting that such a person has used TW's speech in such a way that TW has forfeited TW's right to be pronouned as TW wishes. By removing pronouns from TW entirely, LW would be maintaining his respect for the system of according people preferred pronouns while at the same time showing appropriate lack of respect for someone who showed no respect at all for HIS right to sexual autonymy - and who "made" HIM comfort TW over it.
21
Venn: I agree that while, what TW has done is inappropriate, misgendering (or ungendering) them in revenge is equally inappropriate in a two-wrongs-don't-make-a-right way. If someone who belongs to a racial minority behaves like an asshole, using a racial slur to refer to them is not at all cool. This is the same premise.
22
General Notes to the Assembled Company:

(Everyone knew I'd say this) Mr Savage's comment sections without Ms Hopkins has been like Downton Abbey without a Dowager Countess.

*****

It would be rather lovely if zed pronouns caught on sufficiently that they had to lower the value of the zed in Scrabble. Then the Q would deservedly reign alone as the only tile scoring 10 points in English.

*****

Wouldn't Safe Space be a marvelous name for a (feminist) boy band? Here I have actually been a bit psychic. I plotted out in November and December a BBC season's worth of episodes in which four young non-feminist men (with Youtube presences) of rather disparate views were formed into a boy band (inspired by the Monkees) called the B List. In addition to first and sixth episodes mostly centred around a couple of their fellow travelers, each of the four was the main focus of one episode particularly devised around something for which he was clearly known.

One of the four was, while straight, far more aggressively pro-LGBT rights than most LGBT people would allow themselves to be. In his episode, the success of the B List and their non-feminist message was threatened by the sudden rise of a majorly-backed rival boy band called Safe Space, who became the favourites to win an upcoming contest with their new monster hit song titled "Gay's Not Okay" with its message about how Male Homosexuality = Misogyny and can no longer be allowed to flourish unregulated. My featured B-List member then discovers the evening before the competition two of the members of Safe Space in flagrante delicto.

They immediately assume he's going to denounce them to insure victory for the B List. Instead, he gets them to disclose that they are being blackmailed by their backers into fronting Safe Space and spreading an anti-gay message. The three of them then rewrite the lyrics. "Gay's Not Okay" is transformed into a coming out anthem by turning the anti-gay sentiments they retain in the opening verse into a look at the sort of thing people might mistakenly think to be true (inspired by the case in which Rumpole, thinking that he has won about 330,000 pounds on a four-horse accumulator [which he has, but he hasn't yet found out that the screw who placed the bet for him has taken the winnings and left for a warmer climate], tells the jury exactly what he thinks of Judge Bullingham, and Phyllida Erskine Brown has to convince the Mad Bull that Rumpole's interrupted speech was going to turn out to have begun that way in order to illustrate the mistaken view some people might form of Old Bailey judges). When the song is performed, the change becomes apparent too late. Safe Space wins the competition, the two members announce their engagement, and happy endings abound for all except the anti-gay backers.
23
University life, wasn't it fun. So many issues, so little time to study.
25
12-Nocute-- I think the fact that the bully is a trans woman is significant in that SUB initially comforted her when she started to cry. If the bully had been a cis-fundamentalist crying because every time she saw her friend she knew he was going to spend eternity suffering in hell, it would have been easier to laugh it off in the first place, not days later. I think there's this tendency to see everyone who's LGBTQK (questioning, kinky) as an ally, and bullies know that it's easier (and more effective) if you break down your target's defenses by posing as an ally first. SUB wouldn't be the first person to be taken by surprise in this way.

Having said that, I don't think that's what SUB's trans friend was doing. I think she was stirring up drama, not starting out seeking to bully. I wish I could say I'd never sought a closer relationship by trying a dramatic ploy when I was in those tender early college years.

Now it's time to bring out the old joke about the lady who calls the police because she's shocked SHOCKED by the shenanigans going on in the neighbor's house across the way. The police officer peers out the window and admits that he can't see a thing; the neighbor's house is all the way across a large cornfield. The woman says "Well! That's because you're not using these binoculars!"
26
Ms Fan - I am not wedded to the idea, and am open to improvements. Come up with a better way to show respect for the system and simultaneous appropriate disrespect (on a more serious assessment of the offence than "not cool") for the bully, and I shall be happy to endorse it. The idea was the first thing that came to mind and had the charm of novelty; I'm quite prepared to accept that there is probably a better way to attain my desired end. If one accepts that mis-gendring would be the equivalent of a slur, non-gendring (a better description here than un-gendring?) strikes me as sufficiently different, but that could definitely be cutting it rather too fine.

A suggested response X with the caveat that you don't believe this case deserves that response but that X would be a better response if you did will be quite acceptable.

This letter and LW's obsequious response to TW's conduct remind me of some half-dozen or more times when I have heard a friend or relative of a victim of a crime refer to the perpetrator in a straightforward way as the "gentleman" or the "lady" who did whatever terrible thing. Someone who tortures and murders an innocent victim (yes, a HUGE can of worms there) has forfeited the right to be called a gentleman or a lady - rather more permanently than TW here, in my view, has forfeited the right to the consideration of preferred pronouning. Here at least the offence can be mitigated; TW can retract TW's outrageous demand, and the zed pronouns can happily be restored. (My *guess* is that this won't end well, but there is always the chance.)
27
LW2 you should go to your Dean of Students and report this bag of crap for blackmailing you. That is some effed up shyte right there and I just looked in our student handbook and that could get you in a lot of trouble, which this person should absolutely be in.

The bad news is you'll probably have to out yourself a bit during the investigative process. Please know though, that the people who do this have seen everything and try not to be too embarrassed. You can speak to an RD or professor you trust about the vague bits, that someone is harassing and threatening you and you want some advice on what to do before going to the DoS. This advice obviously doesn't apply if you don't go to a secular college, by the way; I don't know how a religious institution might differ in their reaction.

If you are planning to report and feel up to it you can try to get this person to double down and threaten you via email (or FB or whatever).

This is a serious violation of the conduct code at my school and we would absolutely investigate and even if you decided not to continue any investigation, we'd have a record for the next time this person threatened someone, which, based on their boundaries now is absolutely likely.
28
Yeah, with LW2 the trans-woman suffers from offensitivity - the belief that by getting offended and confronting what offends you, the world will be made a better place. Even when what offends you is consensual sexual activities of people you are not involved that post pictures to a social media site where the obvious solution is to not follow that profile.

Great advice telling LW2 to stick to their guns and not bend over backward for zis asshole.
29
What I don't understand about WANG's letter is why he doesn't mention what his boyfriend wants or thinks about all this. The only thing we learn is that BF enjoys bottoming. No mention of whether he wants to top WANG, or generally is happy the way things are. (Maybe they mostly do oral on each other, and that’s BF’s preference?)

I thought it was especially odd since it seems like the top’s erection is more crucial to anal sex. The bottom just needs to figure out how to relax; he doesn't need to be hard. At first I wondered whether Dan edited the letter and that the original WANG wanted to top but couldn’t get hard enough to do so. But then describing his BF as “a little bigger than most” doesn’t have a counterpart if BF bottoms, so I’m left confused.
30
@29: Dan did say "bottom boner" was state of mind. I think he just means the willingness and readiness--i.e., the correct relaxation state--to be penetrated...?
31
@30, yes, I didn't find Dan's response confusing; I found it confusing that the LW was so focused on his own arousal ("The ceremonies around anal sex turn me off") rather than on his own ability to relax and his partner's arousal.
32
It would be a pro-feminist, pro-trans [not to mention pro-sex, -kink, -queer, -individual-autonomy] action for LW2 to take all reasonable measures to disabuse the histrionic twit in L2 of their massive misconceptions about what the world is and how it works.
33
I'm with Hunter78 @24: If she's a transwoman, she's she because she's a woman. If ze's agender, ze's ze because ze is neither a woman nor a man. One isn't both a woman and ze, right?

This kind of sounds like a fake letter trolling trans* folk for having psych problems.

(Hunter78: textual support posted to other thread.)
34
@28: The word "offensitivity" is a keeper.

@18: We've missed you too.

@17: Exactly. Reactionary shitbirds who think their personal gut reactions should control other people's lives are distressingly common, and it doesn't seem like there's a feasible way to weed them out. A lot of them think they're progressives, too, which basically ruined progressivism. Sadly, the "SJW" label's been claimed by other reactionaries, so we're stuck with identifying them as the illiberal left.
35
“Is the fact that the bully in the second letter is a trans woman important?” (nocute @ 12)
I think it can give us some more details as to what’s going on whether LW intended it or not. The vast majority of young people experience some difficulties while navigating their way, figuring who they are and how to deal with the world. Being a trans- or gay or bi or anything else out of the ordinary- only adds to the baggage and can manifest in some unhealthy behavior.

The way I see it Z may also struggle with her own submissive desires, which may explain how she found his picture to begin with. Not only she is confused about her gender, it is also possible that being a woman, supposedly proud and liberal, she feels guilty for her submissive tendencies. She sees LW, who is going along with it, as a possible threat to her own insecurities, hence the “bullying.”

Some wise, experienced, mature women have expressed here their long journey in accepting their sexual submissive sides while retaining their proud feminist selves. Just imagine what a young trans woman has to go through.
That said, bullying of any sort is totally unacceptable.

36
Infidel @30: I read "bottom boner" the same way you did. Perhaps for WANG, "turned on" and "relaxed enough to take a cock" are one and the same.

Alison @33: Perhaps SUB has the combination wrong, or perhaps TW does identify as a trans woman who doesn't like gendered pronouns. Either way, TW's gender -- and pronouns -- are irrelevant. The point is that SUB has shown TW enough respect to use their preferred pronouns, nontraditional as they are, but TW has not shown SUB enough respect to not slut-shame him.

Venn @26: I don't see this as analogous to "lady" or "gentleman", archaic terms that have to do with a person's behaviour, not their gender. A better parallel would be to say a murderer forfeits their right to be called a man. Pronouns aren't titles that can be revoked.
37
Exactly: A trans woman would use female pronouns; an agender person would use the "z" variations. So either this bully/drama monarch is insisting on the pronoun for everyone or the lw is using the pronoun for everyone because equality! Neutrality! Or either one or the other is confused. Or there is an over-abundance of youth.

Still, I can't see what difference the Drama Monarch's being trans is. Drama Monarch has been triggered by images of restraints, which is neither the universal agender or trans experience.
38
Nocute @37: Images of restraints that ze / she / they themselves sought out on the internet. Agreed, the gender of the llama is irrelevant. If it bleats like a llama... :)
39
I'd like to point out that SUB's fuckhead friend was probably also calling for Caleb Hannan to be executed for his role in outing a trans person.

Just your daily reminder that shitty people come in all shapes and sizes.
40
I think EricaP is interpreting "bottom" and "top" in their D/s uses, in which case she is confused by why WANG doesn't seem more focused on his partner's pleasure and why, if he is a bottom, he's spending so much time thinking about his own pleasure. I think that he may be using "top" and "bottom" to refer to the person doing the penetrating and the person being penetrated. Hence the confusion. I'm not a man, but I understood "bottom boner" to refer to being able to be turned on when he's bottoming. From what I understand of man/man anal sex, it's nice if the bottom is hard and can be stroked either by his own hand or by the top's (or by a third person) to orgasm as the top is fucking him to orgasm.

It sounds to me not only as if WANG can't relax and thus being topped by his boyfriend is painful for him--especially since the bf is larger than other men WANG has been topped by, but that he also can't get or stay hard as his bf tops him, and he (and presumably his bf as well) would like that.

Being a straight woman, i could be very wrong here, but that's my interpretation.
41
@40, nope, I wasn't assuming that WANG was a sub. I actually see him as a narcissist, only concerned with his own pleasure, or else I would expect to see some mention of what his partner wants out of their mutual sex life.

Yes, it's nice during anal penetration of a man if he gets hard, but it's hardly required. Since WANG wants to bottom to anal, it would make sense to just focus on relaxing for the first several times, and not focus on getting hard. But mostly it would make sense to focus on discussing this with BF. If BF doesn't want to top, then WANG can use smaller toys and his BF's size isn't an issue. I just wanted WANG to indicate that he had discussed all this with BF at some point.
42
editing @41, I would expect to see some mention of how his partner feels about topping WANG. [WANG does mention that his partner enjoys bottoming.]
43
EricaP: I assume that people only put into their letters what they think is the most important info for the sake of getting advice. Perhaps the bf isn't concerned that WANG isn't enjoying it--maybe WANG is hiding the fact that he's not and the bf has no way of knowing that WANG is uncomfortable.

Just because WANG doesn't mention his bf in his letter to Dan doesn't mean he's indifferent to bf's pleasure or hasn't discussed this with his bf. One can't include everything in a letter.
44
nocutename @43 Yes, people can’t include everything, but I get to draw conclusions from what they choose to include. Let's suppose WANG had written:

>> I’m a 24-year-old gay male. My boyfriend and I have been together for just over a year. We’d both like to try having me bottom more, but the preparations (condoms & lube) make me anxious and I get too tense. He’s quite large, so that also makes me tense. >>

The advice would be the same: try changing lubes, try toys in different sizes, give yourself a couple of months to build positive associations before trying anal again.

But with that letter I wouldn’t see him as a narcissist.

Re-reading the letter, I also am starting to think that his positive bottoming experiences may have been with men who didn’t use condoms (“the sound of the condom wrapper... brings up memories of times when I didn't have a great time bottoming.”) He may have a strong preference or fetish for bareback sex. If that’s not okay with his current BF, then what I read as a self-centered letter might just reflect that tension in their relationship.
45
This week’s video:
While labeled as a Christmas present this will make a great Valentine’s as well.
Hurry up and book your session now!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5Jf3BVi…

Short, witty, and a fairly mild youtube public piece.

Happy Valentino to all.
46
Same to you CMD.
Being a lazy type of person, I haven't read thru all the comments, so forgive me if I repeat a suggestion. Couldn't
Mr sub with little inner strength just have his Dom put a trigger warning on his site? Or, novel thought.. keep their sexual behaviours to themselves. Or is being a exhibitionist part of his story.
48
Mx Wanna - I thought V Day was on the Kill It With Fire list. Mr Savage is well on the record as being in the Opposed camp. I'm willing to give it FTWL, but only if both/all parties of the unit involved regard the day with enthusiasm.
49
SUB should file a complaint with the campus authorities so that the facts are on record in case there's further trouble and in case ze's pulled/pulls this shit with other people. The threat of outing is particularly troubling. Using threats to try to control another person's sex life is way worse than micro-aggressions or insensitive pronouns. In more serious cases, it can be helpful to have a lawyer send the nutcase a letter explaining that outing someone could open them up to a civil lawsuit if their victim suffers financial harm as a result.

People in college today are going to be nightmares politically. Imagine thinking that you're entitled to place restrictions on a stranger's sex life because it upsets you personally. Ze isn't an isolated nut; this kind of thing is common among the politically correct these days.
51
Ms Lava - I don't Tumblr myself (nor was I BDSM in my prime), but many friends or acquaintances do, and their posts of a similar nature to those in the letter often lead to growing the community. That strikes me as an excellent reason not to keep it to themselves. Being SS and kinky can make people as pleased to see other people's posts of their activity of choice as Mrs Elton claims the Sucklings will be by the sight of Hartfield. "People who have extensive grounds themselves, you know, are always pleased with anything in the same style."

Then, too, as the vast majority of Tumblr pages I've seen are not identified by the proper name of the page-owner, chances are excellent that TW was trolling for BDSM pictures in order to come across the page at all. And TW's recognizing LW from a faceless picture strongly suggests that TW was paying sufficient attention to detail that the idea of pictures of LW in medical restraints being so traumatizing rather loses credibility. Ms Crinoline's comparison to the woman staring through her neighbour's bedroom window with powerful binoculars seems especially apt. Remember, TW is so traumatized by the pictures BF posted that TW is going to monitor BF's Tumblr page and keep checking to make sure he doesn't post any new pictures.
52
TOBS: It sounds like you have a wonderfully GGG SO. I can't decide what's best for you, but agree with Dan's advising for you to give him a chance.

Please forgive me, folks. This is so last week, but I'm still trying to get over the term "blumpkin".
53
@18 Eva Hopkins: It's good to hear from you, too!
54
Hunter; if you keep posting straight after me, I'll assume you are stalking. It may be a new category on the report site, but I'm fine to test it.
55
Venn @ 48
You should check out The Stranger's cover- where Mr. Savage presides- this week. All pink - which I don't mind at all- and all Valentine's, which you very well may be.
So who are we to criticize Hillary?

I wholeheartedly agree on "but only if both/all parties of the unit involved regard the day with enthusiasm."
56
@16: I had considered suggesting replacing all of TW's preferred pronouns with "asshat."
57
Wow EricaP @41, I agree with Nocute that you are reading way too much into the limited information that was printed -- and who's to say Dan didn't edit out the irrelevant parts of the letter? If WANG hasn't mentioned that he likes to make his boyfriend breakfast in bed, does that mean that he doesn't like to make his boyfriend breakfast in bed? I saw nothing in WANG's letter to imply that he was disregarding his boyfriend's pleasure. My take was that they wanted to mix things up, but WANG was having trouble accommodating.
58
Hunter @50: No, I'm sorry, "unfaithful" does not include all extramarital sex. "Unfaithful" means not abiding by vows you agreed to abide by. If two people agree to have an open marriage, there is no lack of faith involved in their fucking other people.
59
CMD: Hello! I'm aware you asked me some questions in a previous thread which I didn't answer. Unfortunately, I can't answer. One, I believe, was about "the gay scene" in England vs America, and since I've not spent much time on "the gay scene" I can't really comment. (I spend most time on the goth/alternative scene, which is so queer-friendly I have no need to seek out dedicated queer space. There are "queer alternative" subset groups, but the primary identity of their participants tends to be "alternative" rather than "queer".) And as for porn, I've never been a consumer -- it's strictly FTWL for me. Sorry I couldn't be of more help.
62
Mr Hunter - I didn't say the letter was straight, but that LW appeared to be one of those gay people whose SS relationship appeared modeled along a straight line. If you recall the thread when the letter was a Daily one, I commented that the letter sounded very Mordden-like, and instanced that Little Kiwi/Virgil Brown left Dennis Savage for a relationship in which he was the male equivalent of a Kept Woman. [To Messrs Ricardo/Fortunate/Kevin: come to think of it, why doesn't his relationship with Dennis Savage have the same feel to it? He could so easily have been a glorified houseboy. I shall have to dig out the books and look again.]

Why feel the need for eloquence when I came up with a brand new concept in the first five minutes of arriving home on a Tuesday night? Besides, it's still Thursday morning here and we are already over 60 posts. If you recall Mr Savage's annual Gay Week column last June, it was highly likely that the thread would not have reached triple digits had it not been for my encounter with my Serial Complimenter. (I DO hope he's currently situated among people who regard him kindly and treat him well.)
63
Mx Wanna - I've no objection to pink (and have more pink shoes than brown; I'll spare the assembled company a full inventory).

Mr Savage shills with skill; there are several people to whom he should give lessons.
64
BDF @ 59
Here are my questions which may differ slightly from the way you remembered/interpreted them:

1. Is the queer scene you encountered in UK different than the one you witnessed while still in the US, assuming you were indeed involved?
2. Looking into CFNM as well as feminization stuff on the internet, it seems like the better porn and literature of those come from the UK. Now I know those actors and actresses and everyone in between have all appeared on numerous Shakespearean productions since they were kids, which may explain their fine acting, but is there also an increased genuine interest?
65
@51 Venn. Growing the community?
What, like some recruitment drive.
66
@ 8 - "SUB why do you care about this manipulative piece o'shit? "

He's a sub. The people he deals with are by definition manipulative. And he's supposed to obey orders, like the one he received from the TW.

The only problem here is that he's confused, since that specific order means he'll have to stop obeying orders.
68
Back in my day, it was much more difficult to show off your kink - you had to go to a bathhouse, public bathroom, adult theatre, or park, and you had a very limited audience - most of which already knew all about it and didn't care.

But it's different now, and has been for quite some time. If I had the vapors every time I saw someone I knew doing something kinky on the internet, I'd have to be institutionalized.

It's the person with the problem's problem, not SUB. SUB should simply tell the person (and I'm saying "the person" because I don't understand the whole "z" thing, and I don't want to offend) that no, they will not stop and that the person needs to find another pastime on the internet. SUB is not responsible for the person's hang ups.

I don't understand why you'd need witnesses for that, but I'll take Dan's word for it.
69
Ms Lava - Why so incredulous? Have you gone to Tumblr? Do so and search for a fetish; a bunch of pages should pop up on which practitioners will have posted pictures related to that fetish. People who share that interest will visit the page, enjoy the posts, make new acquaintances and bond. If I wanted to become socially active again, I'd quite likely adopt such a tactic as part of my overall strategy.

I'm curious as to why you seem to think TW is so entitled to get this couple to alter even just what one of them posts on the internet.
70
The Internet is telling you something, Venn. You landed on @69 again.. And just in time for Valentine.
I don't want them to change one iota of their practices. Indeed the whole area of D/s is fascinating to me. It's just, pictures of one's sexual behaviours seems so disconnected from any notions of intimacy that I have.
And here we are, this boy all freaked out because he's been recognized by some dimwit.
71
Ms DuRay - Even when successfully bullying LW, TW started shaking and crying, and LW felt impelled to comfort her (for which he deserves to be subjected to a run or two through the Spanking Machine). TW is likely to be just like those Christianists who interpret not being allowed to control and bully people as the equivalent of being perseucted. TW is highly likely to present LW's refusal to kowtow to TW's bullying as LW's bullying TW. I could easily see TW's breaking down after the scene in which LW stands up for himself, running into the campus Queer Centre and ranting about just having been abused and triggered by LW. TW could sincerely believe it, or could simply be so traumatized by LW's standing up for himself that others not present when he actually does so might presume that he behaved abusively to TW - no conscious malice required.

People (of any gendre) with that strong a sense of entitlement can be dangerous; witnesses when interacting with them seems a reasonable safeguard.
72
Ms Lava - You think he's the one who freaked out? I don't have any even to can't.

If this is so totally incomprehensible to you, then maybe the thing to do is Listen and Believe.
73
Obviously the dimwit freaked out as well Venn. The LW is so stirred up by the exchange he's written to Dan, and here we are, people from around the globe discussing the issue.
Listen and Believe what? That if you put your personal details and photos on the internet, that others , slightly crazy others.. Or is that irrational others, jury is still out on crazy.. will find a way to drag you into their twisted mind set and disturb you.
Personally, I'd rather avoid that outcome.
74
vennominon dear, It's MRS Vel--DuRay....

As for "I could easily see TW's breaking down after the scene in which LW stands up for himself, running into the campus Queer Centre and ranting about just having been abused and triggered by LW."

So? Granted, I have been away from college longer than most Sloggers have been alive, and in those days the concept of being "triggered" did not exist, but back in my day at the U of Iowa - which was a very gay friendly campus, and the gay organization quite militant - that sort of confrontation would have had no consequence, aside from gossip. What is supposed to happen? Your gay card be taken away? Put on some sort of do-not-date list? Even if that were to happen, there were plenty of other fish in the sea in the larger campus community. Not everyone feels the need to cling to the Queer Centre.

All campuses are different, of course, but I should hope that by this day and age one wouldn't be ostracized by their LGBTQ/etc community because of some dumb argument about what one reveals on the internet and how that affects people.
75
@74: When students file Title IX complaints against a profe…, and a student was expelled under Title IX fo…, it's not that far-fetched to imagine Zed Trigger-Happy doing something filing a Title IX over BDSM photos.

The accused had virtually no due process rights (no right to an attorney, not informed of the basis of the charges, no right to remain silent, no right to confront the accuser). The school is threatened with losing its federal funding, so they take the complaints seriously even if they're frivolous, in a better-safe-than-sorry approach.

At the very least, having a witness who can verify that SUB said nothing offensive could help in such a case, although it's no guarantee. For this reason, I think misgendering Trigger-Happy is a very bad idea. Do no give zir fodder for a Title IX suit.
77
Venn @72: "You think he's the one who freaked out?"
I agree with Lava's statement that SUB "freaked out." He freaked out enough to use multiple exclamation points in his letter, and freaked out enough to write to Dan in the first place. If someone came up to me and said they recognised me from faceless Internet photos, I'd freak out too. Is that incomprehensible to you?
78
Ms Fan - I took it more as astonishment than a freak-out, as the tone of the letter didn't seem to indicate any fear. I wish there had been at least a note of caution (the letter seemed more expressive of bewilderment), as a person willing to disregard scruples is going to be rather put out when he refuses to kowtow to bullying, and likely will respond with an attempt to do the couple harm. As Mrs DuRay says, perhaps there's not much TW can do to them, but TW is certainly likely to try.

I'll provide a parallel of my meaning. Suppose Ms Cute were playing golf with the no-longer-with-us Mr Ank, and they both drove their balls into the water. Ms Cute quietly said the F word or the D word, while Mr Ank smashed his club against a tree until it were broken beyond repair. Ms Lava and I witnessed the scene, and Ms Lava's response was to tick off Ms Cute for language. (At least in 73 Ms Lava at last acknowledged TW's transgression, but her earlier posts could have been interpreted as taking TW's side.)

As for the recognition, I'd possibly tie the question of outfreaking to how difficult recognition would be. Some people's Tumblr profiles use their real names if they're sufficiently open about their kinks, though it's not very common. I've more or less assumed that TW knew the page to be BF's one way or another, and I've wondered more than once whether the recognition required stalker-like levels of concentration or whether the incriminating photos were accompanied by captions or descriptions that, in conjunction with general knowledge around campus that the two young men were a couple, would have meant that TW had only to read the description to be able to put two and two together. The exclamation points I took to be comments similar to Ms Crinoline's about the amount of attention that a person so traumatized by bondage photos would have given - the equivalent of looking through one's neighbour's window with powerful binoculars. But you could certainly be right.
79
Mr Hunter - I have lashed myself thirty times with a wet zed. At least I'm better at no-pronouning that Mr Savage is at monogamy.
80
Mrs DuRay - I shall try to remember that; we ought to converse more often. I imagine the possible social consequences could depend on the school. I went to a rather small school where most of us of particular persuasions were at least slightly acquainted.

There are, of course, more serious consequences possible. I mentioned earlier the case of a student whose permitted conduct on campus was restricted for the terrible crime of bearing a strong resemblance to another student's former rapist. I'm not surprised that you'd wonder at Mr Savage's advising LW to have a witness, though; it's the sort of advice generally more in the line of anti-feminists.
81
Mr. Venn - anonymous tumblr photos required as proof of said zed lashing!
82
You read it as you want to read it, Venn.
And your condescending tone is offensive.
Everyone was pointing out what an idiot the dimwit was, I was responding to the LWs lack of initiative. Like just tell the dork to FO. And the stupidity of putting oneself out there on the web, and not thinking what the outcomes might be.
By writing to Dan he showed how it all unnerved him, caught by the dimwit's threats. If one isn't proud of one's sexual
orientation and behaviour, then don't put pictures of oneself on the bleeding
Internet. Faceless or not.
I agree with Dan's response, get a witness and stand up to the nonsense behaviour, carefully. Cat's out of the bag now, the LW is all a flutter, and God know's how the dimwit is going to play their next hand.

83
Ms Lava - I get that it's not your style, and highly explicit pictures aren't really mine, either. Recall if you will Admiral Croft's reminding himself that Anne Elliot won't think the Crofts keeping their umbrellas hanging by a certain door an improvement at Kellynch Hall, as the Elliots always kept theirs in the butler's pantry. "One man's ways may be as good as another's, but we all like our own best."

I'll be so bold as to presume that your appetites are catered to by mainstream media. I can recall growing up and developing interests for which one could find representation only in a remarkably small section of public libraries or a handful of bookstores scattered around the country. You can perhaps make a case that, if everyone who posts explicit pictures of self or significant other on the internet were to desist, the world would be a better place. But it would not be a better place for those kinksters' fellow enthusiasts who share their own materials in return. People who bond over an extremely particular interest would lose a way to bond in that manner simply to cater to the demands of people who have nothing to do with their intimate lives and who could ever so easily avoid being offended.

Those of us who live farther from our livelihoods have to run greater risks in the commute.
84
Ms Thinking - Alas, I don't Tumbl!
85
Hi CMD @64: Nope, still can't help you, I'm afraid. The only observation I'd make about the queer scene that's site-specific is that, unsurprisingly, being LGBT is very political in Washington DC -- as pretty much everything is.
86
CMD @78: Sorry, but I dispute your "her [Lava's] earlier posts could have been interpreted as taking TW's side." I see nothing that could possibly be construed that way. Stating that SUB might want to keep his BDSM activities more private is in no way endorsing TW's claim to police what SUB puts online.
87
Oops @86 was for Venn.
89
vennominon, I get what you're saying, but what's to stop SUB (or the dominant bisexual) from filing a counter-complaint against the accusing person for anti-bi bias, or deprivation of sexual expression or something? What would the university do then?

(Really, why is the university involved in this at all? No wonder tuition is so expensive these days, if they are having to referee inane disputes like this because there is federal money on the line. I thought my generation put the final nail in the coffin of "in loco parentis")
90
@69 vennominon: Double congrats on hitting the magic number two weeks in a row, and Happy Valentine's Day!
91
BiDiFan @85 - As someone who grew up and currently lives in the DMV area, I'm baffled by your observation that "being LGBT is very political in Washington DC". I've kept my mouth shut regarding some other fairly lesbian-unfriendly comments you've made lately, but this one has me stumped. Whatever are you referring to?
93
The sentence in question seems to be this one: "A trans woman active in campus queer politics confronted me today. Ze had seen my boyfriend's Tumblr (!) and recognized me (!!!)."

If one interprets the parenthetical exclamation marks as indicating dismay at being found out, then yes, one who doesn't want to be found out is kind of stupid to post their sex life on the internet. That knife cuts both ways. "If you don't want to be triggered, don't read it" is the flip side of "If you don't want to be caught, don't post it," because both hinge on the idea that the information is freely available to anyone with enough fingers to manage to type a URL.

On the other hand, those exclamation points could well be expressions of amazed frustration. The first one being expanded to ("It's not like I texted cock-shots at zir/asshat; ze/asshat had to type in the fucking URL...!)" and the second as "(ze/asshat had to do some serious sleuthing to "recognize" me from a faceless naked body shot...!!!)"
94
I've just read the letter again.. and the LW is not even asking for help. His question is, How fucked up is that? And yes, LW, it is majorly fucked up.
I amend some of my words above, the ones where I agreed with Dan's response. I think the LW should just ignore the whole thing. His BF is not worried, so why should he be.
Ignore the TW, avoid the TW and just get on with his life.
Perhaps others reading this might take it as a warning though. Do not assume you are unrecognisable, on the web, even if your face is not shown.
The drama queen busybody wants attention, wants it all to be about her. Wants to be triggered and have meltdowns. Wants to be relevant.
And she's not.

95
Mrs DuRay - Recall if you will Mr Savage's own run-in a while back with the college student who wished to be pronouned as It. Plenty of people took It's side despite It's having made a demand nearly as unreasonable as TW's. There's certainly no guarantee that this brouhaha will go the school administration, but anyone unscrupulous enough to make what TW meant to be a serious threat is likely to think of getting authorities involved should there be any plausible advantage in doing so.

If in future LW and TW are alone, either because he decides to tell TW he isn't going to cave after all, or because the couple ignores TW and TW sees new pictures posted, I could easily see TW's assaulting LW and then claiming afterwards that LW committed the assault, possibly even believing it and making a convincing story. TW seems to have Gone Girl levels of entitlement; let us hope it isn't matched by similar levels of retaliation.
96
I'm a bit late to this party, but mark me confused. What is this ze/zir shit when speaking of a trans-woman? Every trans-woman I know (from real life, online, or film) considers herself a woman and uses female pronouns. And, the trans-men I've met live and function socially as men, complete with male pronouns. I thought these intermediate pronouns were reserved for gender-queer people, not people who have transitioned to (or identify with) the opposite binary gender (from what it said on their original birth certificate)..
97
JibeHo: I apologise for any offense I may have caused. "Many lesbians have been unfriendly towards me as a bi woman" is the plain truth; that it not to say that I am holding that against every lesbian I meet, as I have also met many bi-friendly lesbians. And having been "left for a man" and having dated a bi woman who decided she was straight, I honestly don't blame lesbians for deciding to rule bi women out of their dating choices. They can choose to do it in an aggressive manner or in a "FTWL" manner, is all.

As for queer-as-political in DC, my observations are based on my having lived in Washington DC from 1996-2002 as a somewhat newly out queer. Can one avoid the politicisation? Sure, I suppose one can; I personally was swept into queer organising and going to marches, but one could choose to avoid this route. Being a new person in town whose attempts to meet people included joining organised LGBT groups, and organised groups are more political. And DC, in general, is very political by definition, just like Paris is very cosmopolitan and Berlin is very bohemian. May I ask if you've lived in other cities? You might not notice how political DC is if you don't have any other basis for comparison.
98
Mr Reader - Transitional? TW is young, and could perhaps have taken to gendre-neutral pronouns before transitioning, and might still find them comfortable.
99
For the record, I've found Ms Fan consistently fair on the partnering question.

(Stray related thoughts: I do think there's a lot of potential discussion left untapped about why certain B or L/G people might or might not find a good fit in a mixed-orientation relationship. This has led me to prefer a spectrum view to the will-or-won't-date/partner-"them" question. Mr Savage's recent near volte-face struck me as an attempt to shut down the conversation rather than move it in a constructive direction.)
100
BiDiFan @98 - As an adult I've lived in a fairly large college town in Florida (Go Gators!), Dallas, San Francisco and now back in the DC suburbs.

To me, saying that DC is a political town because you joined a political group when you moved there would be like me saying that SF is a softball town because I joined a team when I moved there.
101
TOBS - I think you were right to end it if you can see a happier future without this guy than with him. But people and decisions are not set in stone. If you are starting to imagine a happy future with this guy again, what is different in your imagination? Can you state the important differences as boundaries? There is also a middle ground of reconnecting more slowly and casually as you gain trust in the new relationship dynamics, like start as friends first.

SUB - I'm not sure how dangerous TW is. My vote is to object to TW's request at the queer center, or otherwise in public with a friend in tow. Although I think it's not unreasonable to ignore it the first time, imo it's disrespectful enough to conclude it will repeat or escalate until you firmly shut it down. But maybe TW's parents just died and it's a temporary insanity, who knows.

WANG - Loved the toy advice. And if the big ol' dick won't fit right until you stretch yourself out.. maybe he can use a toy on you sometimes too? And if you don't want to bottom again because of the way he fucked as well as his size/lube/condoms, that's something you can talk about and demonstrate and work on too.
102
You play softball JibeHo? Neat.
Or like saying, that because I live near lychee farms that I'm a lychee.
103
Of course it's a political town, JibeHo. Just like CanBerra in Australie is a political town. No need to be sorta bitchy about it.
104
@97, as a liberal activist, I was really excited 15 years ago when I got a job in DC, because I thought I'd be around like-minded people. I'm afraid to say, I was repeatedly disappointed in how apolitical everyone was. Oh, sure most people voted, and they primarily voted Democratic. But I could NEVER get anyone to go with me to an anti-war rally (mostly out-of-towners) or a gay-rights rally (which were surprisingly small), or donate money to anything I was going on about, or even talk about politics (I didn't do this at work, obviously).

Now, not being gay or bi, I probably didn't have the same experiences as you did with that kind of activism. So, just take what I say as an opinion from a different perspective. Also, it depends on what you mean by political; I just assumed you meant politically active (and not counting the politicians, obviously). And if you meant "influence," I'd say money has a bigger influence on everything than voting or party affiliation. "Naked, unashamed greed and corporate influence" is how I'd describe DC. Even more so than New York.
105
Jibe @100: I don't say that DC is a political town because I joined a political group when I moved there. I say it is a political town because, you know, that's where Congress and all the lobbyists and stuff are. Seriously, CMD was asking my experience of the queer scene in different places; how else could I answer?

Thanks for having my back, Lava. And thanks Venn @99 for saying I'm "consistently fair," though I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "on the partnering question." I'm feeling kinda like people are beating up on me this week, so both of your kind words are very welcome. Hugs!
106
Sandiai @104: I think there's a big difference between the DC natives -- of which JibeHo is one -- and the newbies. It's certainly logical to assume that the natives are sick of all the politics and do their best to tune them out, while the newbies (like you and I were, a few years apart) are excited to get involved.
107
Lava - How was my response "kinda bitchy"? It "kinda" gets on my nerves when you feel entitled to police my speech. Read what Sandai said. She's not a native of the area, and her experience of DC mirrors my own.

BiDanFan - I'm not sure why you took my comment as beating you up. You said that DC was political, but you admit that you purposely sought out the political element when you got here. In my experience, the SF gay scene was more inherently political, but that was just my observation.

I am tangentially involved in politics actually. I own my own business and 95% of my clients are democratic candidates for office.

Obviously being the nation's capital means that the federal government is the biggest employer - directly or indirectly - in town. But working for the government and being political are two very different things. In my circle of gay friends there are a few government contractors and employees, but that's just their jobs.

You asked if I've lived anywhere else and I responded that I have. I've actually spent most of my adult life away from the DC area. So while I guess you can call me a native if you want, you can't have it both ways.
108

JibeHo-
I believe BDF's "native" comment stems from "and now back in the DC suburbs."
That said, I like you both and I agree that "political" is very subjective.
I was actually hoping to hear more about unisex lingerie stores and cfnm parties, but politics always gets in the way. Or should I say forced on people who are out of the “norm” for some reason.
The need for a safe space, reach out/educate, fight for equal rights (and fight to keep them)… The list goes on.
109
Ms Fan - I was being careful. The first paragraph of 97 does strike me as having been the consistent position you've presented here, and is more even-handed than that of many on either side of possible mixed-orientation partnerships.
110
JibeHo, reread your comment @91. That's where this little escapade started.
Policing or responding to your language?
As I read your chosen words, I sense you want to catch Fan out in some way. That, to me, is bitchy.
Fan- unfriendly I would call it. So I guess you got her back for the
lesbian-unfriendly words you read.
Tick.
111
And any slight From Fan, @97 she apologized for and explained her reasons. An apology not good enough?
That DC as being political just seems a non issue, and only perceptions.

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