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Feb 22, 2012 at 4:00 am
And Why All the Lefty Non–Sports Fans Who Are Going to Fight Against It Are Wrong This Time
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800 Maynard Ave S, Suite 200, Seattle, WA 98134
800 Maynard Ave S, Suite 200, Seattle, WA 98134
It doesn't have anything to do with lefties or sports haters. I'm a sports fan. I've been to see dozens of top-level sports teams play. What this has to do with is economics.
The economics of cities paying for sports arenas simply does not pencil out. It CAN'T pencil out.
The money that goes into this arena -- both the rent paid by the club and the taxes paid by the fans -- comes from somewhere else. It is not a net gain for the city. EVERY economic study for the past thirty years says so. The tax portion is supposed to go for city services, but is instead being taken away from them.
The Sonics had a similar "air-tight" deal with the Key remodel. Where are they? Did they hold to their lease? No, they fucked off to Oklahoma where another city offered them a better deal. There is no guarantee whatsoever that this Hansen guy, or more likely the unknown future owner he sells out to once his tax advantages expire, as these guys always do, won't do the same.
Seattle just isn't big enough to support four major sports (or five). One of the places basketball and hockey fans will come from is the other teams, who will suffer, and then appear yet again at the city's door asking for another handout. Guaranteed.
We've been down this road before, in 1976, in 1987, in 1995, in 1999, and 2002. Watching these billionaires pull the football away from city leaders over and over again is embarrassing. How many more times are we going to fall for this?
Fixed for you.
The bottom line is if this deal were really "self financing" they would not be asking for financing. "Self financing" means it doesn't need fucking help from a third party, the taxpayer. If this were really a "little or no risk" investment, you could easily find a private realty firm to be the landlord and sign that iron-clad 30 year lease with the team as collateral. Even if (big if) the details of the contract were actually written in the rosy way Goldy is dreaming here, there is a risk the city could end up owning the fucking collateral. Which, if things have gone that far south, means owning a money-losing albatross of an NBA franchise, AND owning a money-losing stadium.
Let them sell this deal to Wall Street. Wall Street lends $200 million all the time to underwrite business deals with a realistic, but not guaranteed, chance of success. Often Wall Street is willing to gamble like a drunken sailor. If you can't anybody in private finance who doesn't think this thing is too risky (stinks like a dead fish, more like), the that means it's too risky.
Have no idea what basketball teams you're thinking of, but as to hockey, are you talking about the WHA teams? I doubt they'll be too much affected.
Seattle is similar in size to Denver, as far as greater metropolitan areas are concerned, and we're able to support four sports teams (so long as they're fielding teams worth watching - only the Broncos are really guaranteed to keep them coming, but then they're seldom dreadful), as well as two minor league hockey clubs and a MLS squad. Seattle can do the same.
Now, that doesn't mean that you're wrong about the deal itself. I doubt it's as bad as those others and I doubt it will be as good as Goldy is selling it.
What he cannot get is private financing at more favorable municipal bond rates.
This lefty King County resident is all kinds of for this.
As for the argument that we'll have a duplicitous owner later bemoaning our cash-poor, (not-so) small-market I say: Green Bay Packers. Detroit Red Wings.
Point 1: A jock refused to go to the prom with you / stole your girl/guy in high school so therefore professional sports take money away from libraries for disabled children.
Point 2: At no point in this process have vegetarian options at potential concession stands been discussed.
Until these points are fully addressed, it will be hard to come to the meaningful impasse Seattle's nanny liberals long for on this issue.
It's a business that generates money. It doesn't need taxpayer support.
@7 you really have no idea - did you see where the latest NHL team is? I mean, really, it's SMALLER THAN SEATTLE.
Let's not forget that Key Area is publicly owned, and only turned a profit after it was paid off and the Sonics were out, freeing up time for other events. A new facility will lose money, and once the ball teams decides to leave town, will mean excess capacity for civic events, which means both venues (owned by the taxpayers) will lose money. Supply does not drive demand.
But the Wet Dream part seems like a winner, aside from reality that cannot be fathomed in between $9 12oz "pints".
If the freakishly large millionaires want this amazing new investment, then I'm sure the freakishly large millionaires could find the change to spare in their couches.
@7, most Seattle hockey attendees are going to be people who do not currently attend any hockey games at all, but do come from other sports.
Seattle is quite a bit larger than Denver (by 1.5 million people when looking at CMSA), and nearly a factor of 2 in GDP. Seattle can support both franchises, no question.
As for the rest, as always, The Stranger's comment section is strictly for bitching and for people who don't do anything therefore nobody else should be able to do anything.
Goldy said it all in the first paragraph and really did not need to elaborate save for those who just don't live in and understand Seattle.
It's morally wrong to allow a sucker to keep his money.
W. C. Fields
If you look around the table and you can't tell who the sucker is, it's you.
Paul Scofield
The big clue was when the Name the New Team the Seattle Sonics went to our fat little Mayor "wimpy" as if it would not lead to lawyers and law suits for money and privileges?
Its like before the the first shovel is turned they are trying to cash in and at the same time target polittypiggys who are not so experienced with the legal wolfs?
Shame sham shame sham shame
And the companies in SLU wanting a redundant power substation should be told no. 4Culture should be denied 25% of the King County hotel tax starting in 2021, and ...
Let's go ahead and go after McCaw for the $44 million dollars in public money "McCaw" Hall was given.
In this case, there doesn't need to be a net positive economic impact, so the studies noted by #1 et al aren't technically relevant - it'd be like asking if TIF funds used to create low-income housing or space for a new farmers market or any other type of civic spending have a net positive impact.
Put it this way: it's a better deal than the Olympic Sculpture Garden, the Pike Place Market, or anything else the city has ever built.
When are those city government suckers gonna stop falling for the bling-bling rackets (convention centers -- Hello Mr. Cuomo, sports arenas, ...)? They're like prostitutes handing out piles of vouchers.
Finally, liberals should stand for COMPETENT government. That may from time to time go against mainstream conventional wisdom. Guess what? That prepackaged wisdom is dying right in front of us.
What the hell is wrong with you, and your false equivalency.
Having sports fans overpay for beer and parking is not in a definition of "rape" that I know of.
That's really waters down the word, and diminishes rape victims to that of somebody paying $9 for a god damn beer.
Here's what you do, when something is offered at ZERO risk to us taxpayers, protected by law, you take it, you ask questions, but you take it.
Fighting Bennett's arena was the right thing to do, but this is COMPLETELY different and a sweet deal even in the fine print. For Pete's sake, read the proposal and do some research before you just start bitching just because that's the group-think Seattle way, step out of your comfort zones, and check this out.
So it comes down to you not liking sports, and you therefore being vehemently against anything sports related occurring in Seattle. Grow up. There's plenty of things that go on in Seattle that don't interest me, I don't advocate that they be run out of town. Hell, I don't care about soccer at all and I'll never watch a Sounders game, but when they were going to come here I didn't throw up my hands and scream "Oh HELLLLLLLL NO THEY DON'T, NOT IN MY OCEANFRONT COMMUNITY!" Who cares? Just because you don't enjoy something doesn't mean you have to become righteously indignant whenever it's mentioned. If you don't like sports, this arena deal doesn't affect you in the slightest. The only people who would be taxed are people who attend games there.
Slide the roof open and let the sun shine in!
anybody or any media outlet that is happy about more failure get started in the failing city is all about the thrill of victory and the agony of defeat.
It was nice while it lasted.
It changes hourly. Regardless, there are a number of NHL teams in the red, and maybe a few NBA teams, too.
The timeline of the arena panel made the Kings an unlikely target to begin with anyway.
Muni bonds are a lower rate because we can't just walk away, unlike Hansen and his co-conspirators. In other words, we have much more to lose.
All we have to gain is taxes on beer consumed in a different part of town than it would have been consumed in without basketball. Zero net gain in taxes; the only difference is now we have to spend those revenues paying off our bonds. Oh, and extra police, crowd control, sanitation, parking, etc. etc.
"Here, I want to increase your tax base. The only catch is, I'm going to take back the tax money! Ha!" Fuck you is the correct answer to that bullshit.
Yeah, using "rape" in an extended sense is not allowed.
1611 C. Tourneur Atheist's Trag. v. i. sig. L3, The lust of Death commits a Rape vpon me.
a1616 Shakespeare King John (1623) ii. i. 97 Thou hast‥done a rape Vpon the maiden vertue of the Crowne.
1642 T. Fuller Holy State i. v. 13 When they set Abel to till the ground, and send Cain to keep sheep‥they commit a rape on nature.
1677 R. Gilpin Dæmonol. Sacra i. xii. 94 If thou yield, will not God account it a rape upon thine integrity?
a1704 T. Brown Satire French King in Wks. (1707) I. i. 92 Old Jerom's Volumnes next I made a Rape on.
1733 J. Kelly Timon in Love iii. i. 48 The Mind endures a Rape.
1767 R. Bentley Philodamus iv. ii. 41 Now wine commits, As 'twere, a kind of rape upon his secrets.
1815 J. Hutton Fashionable Follies Pref., Sir, you have committed a rape upon my play.
1887 J. Rhoades Dux Redux iii. 107 What matters it, when sorrow Hath done a rape on time, and every hour Swells to the birth with some new load of anguish?
1929 D. H. Lawrence Pansies 56 You must know sex in order to save it, your deepest self, from the rape Of the itching mind and the mental self.
1950 Times 19 Jan. 6/1 The east German government has seized the opportunity to protest at ‘the rape of the Saarland.’
1975 Times Lit. Suppl. 10 Oct. 1217/5 It is his job to save Juli from the hangman and, in the final court scene, he does it by the public rape of the boy's secret personality and the destruction of his genius.
1992 R. Wright Stolen Continents i. 41 Employing the smooth words for which he [sc. Cortés] was famous...he persuaded the new men to join him in the rape of the Aztec Empire.
OED.
And the rape is the $200 million in bonds to build them a stadium. The price of beer there is called date rape, not rape. Similar, but not the same thing.
Different issue, but same "this time we can TRUST 'The Man'" bullshit.
Unless Bellevue became a different part of town then you might just be wrong.
41 nights a year people from Bellevue, and outside of King County, stopped coming to Seattld on a scheduled basis, all being to afford an NBA ticket.
Key Arena still hasn't been able to make up the dates. They are buying beer some place else, just not in Seattle.
You clearly do not understand what this deal is about. Somebody told you this was going to be financed with $200 million in "free money" and you believed them.
And clearly the English language hates you right back.
State, County, or City - they all sold out to the untaxed One Percenters and are forcing the poorest Seattleites to pay most of the bill.
Yeah, nothing wrong with this picture.
And #3, the real writers who used to be at the Stranger were all fired or left, Erica, Josh, etc.
#41, 40 and anyone else who brings up anything else underfunded, obviously you know nothing about this possible deal and where the funding would come from, because part of the proposal explicitly states that no monies can be diverted from any other ends.
this time it's different!
there's no risk to you!
btw, wall st. is also your local bank, or sports fans, or hedge funds and bain capital let them fucking make the god damn fucking investment if it's so shiny and sweet. Goldy has not got a clue about what bankruptcy is: it is turns on not having MONEY come in the door so our "taking the collateral" means we take a useless fucking albatross and btw the very word bond or finance means no, it's not secured by real estate. the asset securing the deal is BY DEFINITION worthless in bankruptcy as if it had WORTH some private CORPORATION would fuc king buy it, wouldn't they?
the broader corruptions of this deal are even worse then the money risk.
1. this kind of deal, like a VLF, turns progressivces into regressives, corrupting them for all other issues.
2. this kind of deal is a huge motherfucking distracgtion when we have potholes needing filling, bridges to rebuild, trains to install, bus lines to restore, teachers to rehire oh BY THE WAY didn't we just hear K-12 isn't properly legally funded and the city has NO FUCKING MONEY OR CREDIT LEFT FOR MORE MOTHERFUCKING IMPORTANT THINGS. Like: people. Like: poor people. Like: public goods that only government can provide.
The whole thing is corrupting from top to bottom including corrupting a so called progressive like Goldy. SOME things are only for government to do, we're not even doing those things so just leave the bread and circuses and massive public subsidies so fucking rich folks from bellevue and QA making $200K a year can drive down park their audi and pay $50 for tickets and watch stupid fucking sports millionaires play stupid ball games and pay $9 for beers -- what the fuck is that for? It's not helping the poor. It's the biggest fucking trickele down scam in history and Goldy ought to be ashamed of himself for this stupid opinion.
We can't even fund fucking gym class time for kids in fucking school, and we should throw $200M of public credit at a fucking sports team? wtf?
Comparing the size of Seattle to the size of say Ottawa, Winnipeg, or even Denver is a bit misleading. Hockey is insanely more popular and profitable in the smallest, worst Canadian market than it is in probably all but 5 or 6 much larger markets in the US. It's just not a fair comparison. The culture and support for hockey in Denver is greater than it probably every could be here, despite Seattle being slightly larger in size.
Someone mentioned the WHA--I'm assuming you meant the WHL, the league in which the Thunderbirds, Silvertips, Americans, and Chiefs play. Most people in Seattle don't realize (see above paragraph) that these are junior teams-they are ages 16-20, they're mostly Canadian, and they are being groomed as the future of the NHL. They receive a very modest stipend and free housing and education in their host city. Getting a ticket to a game is $16 or $22 bucks, and the arena is hardly ever full. This does not translate into a guarantee for NHL success.
The Greater Seattle Hockey League, which is the adult recreation league in the area, is the 5th largest hockey league in the whole country. The Seattle area has 10 ice rinks that are booked and busy every day and every night of the year-although, not one of them are in Seattle proper. In addition to the GSHL, there are a half dozen or so smaller, independent leagues that operate around and in between the GSHL use of ice times. Most of these small leagues are 4-8 teams, the GSHL probably has ~150-200(ish) teams. An adult hockey team is roughly 10-15 players per team. This market (family, friends, relatives, co-workers...many work for Boeing and Microsoft) is a huge starting point for NHL success in this city.
NHL tickets are expensive, way more than seeing Mariners or Sounders. Hockey, in general, has a huge overhead cost-it's just an expensive game and the arena/ice itself is high maintenance.
There would certainly be people from British Colombia buying season tickets to a Seattle team. Many Canadians can not afford to buy tickets in Canada, and even if they could, the games are all sold out in advance, hands down. They would come down here, no question. The only time people in southern Ontario can see the Maple Leafs, for example, is when the Buffalo Sabres host them, essentially down the road as we are to Vancouver. Any many people in Ontario just go to Sabres games, Leafs or not.
Seattle has never had an NHL team. The Metropolitans, who won the Stanley Cup, won it in a pre-NHL league...the PCHA...Pacific Coast Hockey Association(??). Amongst hockey folks here, BTW, calling the new team the Metropolitans is overwhelmingly in favor.
Do I think NHL hockey would catch on here and be successful? Yep. Is there a market here? Yep. Would I personally be able to go to a game all that often? Nope, but I do go see the Tbirds quite a bit.
HOOPS'N'PUCKS
HOOPS'N'PUCKS
HOOPS'N'PUCKS
Yr welcome.
I'm going to do everything I can possibly do as a citizen to make sure this doesn't happen, because fuck sports arenas, and fuck you.
Example: A recent trip from two out of towners to a Seahawks game spent the following:
$86 tickets
$104 food
$10 Seahawks gear
$150 shopping downtown after the game
Total $350
Out of this $350, the city gets approximately $10 from the attendees, but from the businesses selling goods and services? Significantly more.
This is only for two people, now multiply these figures by tens of thousands, and then multiply that number by the number of home games and lastly, add in the number of other events at the stadium that aren't sports related.
Dudes, we're making tons of money off the stadiums, don't be fooled, we've made profit hand over fist for our investment of hundreds of millions of dollars: The math works out, if you're as bored as I am (now that 24 isn't making new episodes), then sit down and do the math yourself, I did about 6 years ago, and I'll tell you, it's fucking phenomenal how much money we make off of our investment! It's a fucking stimulus like no other, perhaps as stimulating as an ounce of meth and 23 porn stars with an itchin for some twichin. (ewe, gross).
...quoth Rihanna.
But we all know that discretionary spending isn't really a zero sum game...
Except that it is.
Even last decade, when the plebs were encouraged to run up massive debt on things like consumer electronics, budgeted spending on entertainment spending was absolutely fixed. People do not tend to increase their debt burden for the sake of ephemeral entertainments.
Fucking knuckle dragging imbeciles.
Do any of you understand what Jamel Crawford, Jason Terry, Isaiah Thomas, Nate Robinson, Brandon Roy and the rest of Seattle's NBA stars have done for the inner-city?? Do any of you 'liberals' even care? Who else is helping the CD and the south end (where Im from FQ '99)? NO ONE! Not you. Not the fucking cap hill assholes. Not the Government. THE NBA PLAYERS ARE.
WE NEED THE NBA FOR WHAT IT DOES FOR THE YOUTH.
Now go shove your thumb back up your ass, because you were born not to get it.
I don't do drugs, never have. Are you confusing me with your dad?
The numbers are hard data from reliable sources.
It's all out there and actually very easy to find, all you need to do is a little research...
@58 - Excellent point. To walk into a new NBA (and NHL) arena in Seattle and see muthafuckin STARBUXX for sale would be, to put it mildy, revolting.
Of the $300 million you mention, Paul Allen put up $150 million and bought the team . King county brought $75 million in Kingdome debt and bonded another $75 which has since been paid back. Not exactly "taxpayers picked up the bulk of the cost" but hey why let facts like that or that the public voted and approved this deal enter into your spin.
What better way to keep people content than to constantly provide them with "bread and circuses." But, the reality is that all the government sponsored hockey, soccer, basketball, baseball and football will not solve the crisis we are in.
And, where did you get the notion that Washington's liberals were against the Seattle baseball and football stadiums? The people opposed to the stadia were those who thought government should not become partners with private enterprise (its a corporatism issue).
What better way to keep people content than to constantly provide them with "bread and circuses." But, the reality is that all the government sponsored hockey, soccer, basketball, baseball and football will not solve the crisis we are in.
And, where did you get the notion that Washington's liberals were against the Seattle baseball and football stadiums? The people opposed to the stadia were those who thought government should not become partners with private enterprise (its a corporatism issue).
Well Goldy, I wonder if you felt your toes touch the top of that shark fin as you typed this article; and if you waved to the soon-to-be-stunned readers of the Stranger.
Taxpayer money for privately owned sports franchises and overpriced tickets/concessions.
Socialize the loss, privatize the profit.
And the guy/gal spouting off about how much the ghetto needs NBA millionaires to help the youth, if that is all that is holding your society together, you should swallow a shotgun shell because you are fucked.
1. A new stadium boosts the worth of a franchise. The taxpayers who are essentially investing money into this aren't getting any of that!
2. A public stadium is desired as the various taxes, notably property taxes a sports team pays is greatly reduced.
3. You're building a stadium to (hopefully) attract a team? That's worked out well elsewhere. (Ask Kansas City!)
4. Just because it's a better deal than others have gotten in the past is no reason to say it's a good deal.
5. The teams are proposing a partnership where the taxpayers get all the obligations but none of the benefits.
6. I haven't quite seen where the owners have trotted out the projections of economic benefit yet but their numbers will be grossly inflated. They will also not take into account a number of things such as the income spent on the teams by patrons that would have been spent elsewhere and for a better economic return. Don't forget the income to the NBA and salaries paid to players will likely go out of the area too.
7. When the Dallas Cowboys wanted a new stadium they weren't encouraged by the mayor of Irving, Texas to stay as the amount of subsidies they desired did not balance the benefits. The Irving mayor was quoted as saying they were less than 1% of the Irving economy. After 30 years, the area around the stadium had no appreciable business growth. Dallas has the same problems with the NBA/NHL arena, it was always a bad deal and continues to be.
8. It's a private monopoly, dammit. Let them pay their own way. This really doesn't benefit anyone who doesn't care about sports. This is a large chunk of money to lay out for a minority of people.
http://www.fieldofschemes.com/
http://www.fieldofschemes.com/news/archi…
From the article: "If Hansen can actually make the numbers pencil out, this could provide a model of how to build a sports facility without tapping the public purse — much, anyway. But there are still many chickens to hatch before they can be counted."
again after NBA strikes and NFL strikes we realize there is a cash flow problem and America can not entertain rich drunk slobs like Microsoft who will over develop over research over market over advertise and then totally crash and burn the entire dynasty as it cant maneuver around a 4 dollar made in Guatemala plug-in.
The only place for a new stadium is in the UW as it provides for more than just some rich freaks who are looking to sell beer t-shirts ball caps and $10 hot dogs that are 50% corn?
Integrating Pro sports and education is no stretch for my imagination but then again I am not a Republican and demand more than lies and bull shit.
My point isn't about overpriced beer, it's that we'll get stuck with the leftover debt after the team leaves. The bankruptcy protections in the contract mean basically nothing; all they have to do is pull all the assets out of whatever shell corporation they set up, then let it go under when they break the contract. There won't be anything left to seize and we'll be stuck paying off the bonds with our tax money. Again.
#1 is completely right. There is no possible math in the known universe that supports another professional sports franchise is a city this size with the tax base and demographics we have.
Why is Seattle falling for this horse shit again?
Given how the sports teams have yanked around Seattle, remember that Olympia and CG finally said enough was enough to the Sonics, I seriously doubt all the nifty promises will ever come to fruition. Don't forget they don't have tenants yet. So to get them *after* investing all that money will require some steep concessions. These agreements are always amended later, and never in the favor of the taxpayers.
Believe me, nobody is going to let a chance to let the public pay go by. All the promises and numbers are pure BS until they get it to the point where nobody backs out.
I find it hard to trust anyone with their one hand in my pocket and the other with the palm up. There will be more people along just like that. There always are.
If they want money to fund a private enterprise then send them to a bank or let the fans buy their PSLs to pay for them. Don't take it out of the pockets of people who don't care about the teams.
I can watch teams from all over the country on TV, I don't need to have a local team, they aren't adding anything to my bank account. As soon as more people figure that out and stay away, the more likely the inflated ticket prices come down.