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Chris in Vancouver WA
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Chris in Vancouver WA is basking in the glow of the humdrum.
Jul 26, 2013 Chris in Vancouver WA commented on SL Letter of the Day: Chocolate City.
"the RETURN of trade"???

I didn't know it ever went away.
Jul 15, 2013 Chris in Vancouver WA commented on George Zimmerman Found Not Guilty of Murdering Trayvon Martin.
@ 153

1) It was proactive, I suspected my first statement might make you think that.

2) Well, again, as far as the chain of events, much of what we in the general public have (as opposed to what the jury had), was Zimmerman's statement. Obviously, if he was lying through his teeth, all bets are off. I tend to believe his version of things was largely true. I suspect you don't.

3) Agree to disagree.

4) I'm not a lawyer, but I suspect not in a legal sense. I don't know why you think that the outcomes of criminal trials should be based on what's for the betterment of society. To assure JUSTICE FOR ALL (you've heard that one, haven't you?), criminal trials must only concern themselves with the immediate facts of the case, with no allowances for personal biases that can create inferences as to what really happened.

5) See #2

6) I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but it sounds like you're saying that the scales of justice actually SHOULD be tipped in favor of oppressed minorities. If that's what you're saying, I couldn't disagree more, and I'm a member of an oppressed minority (I'm gay).

7) I want those things, too, lolorhone, but I also want a world where you can't be put in prison for the mere act of defending yourself if physically attacked.
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Jul 15, 2013 Chris in Vancouver WA commented on George Zimmerman Found Not Guilty of Murdering Trayvon Martin.
lolorhone, I do acknowledge the role that race plays in this case, I just feel that the self-defense claim is legit and trumps any racial aspects of the case. Ultimately, you don't convict someone just because he's a jerk, or a racist, or a racist jerk, and it kinda-sorta sounds like that's what many are doing here. Mob rule ain't pretty, even when it's from the left.

As a point of historical record, I thought the cops who beat up Rodney King should have been convicted, and I protested their acquittal.
Jul 15, 2013 Chris in Vancouver WA commented on George Zimmerman Found Not Guilty of Murdering Trayvon Martin.
@150 - "Zimmerman was the aggressor in every sense of the word."

Until he pulled his gun during the fight, how so? He was watching Trayvon, suspicious of him, thought he had done something criminal or was about to, but that's not being the aggressor. It's being an asshole, but it's not being an aggressor. I suppose one could say that he became an aggressor when he got out of his car, but who was the aggressor and who was the aggrieved party swung 180 degrees when Trayvon threw that first punch.

If things had gone down a little different, say, if, before ever laying a hand on Zimmerman,Trayvon said, "I'm gonna fuck you up!" and/or raised his fists, and Zimmerman pulled out his gun and shot him, then I'd say, yes, it's murder. But that's not how it happened.

"Anybody who's been demonstrably stalked by an armed and hostile stranger who refuses to identify himself has been put on the defensive."

Please tell me how Trayvon could have known that Zimmerman was armed. Do you really think he would have jumped Zimmerman if he had known that?

"The reason for Zimmerman's insistence on pursuit, false sense of righteousness, and stated need to bring a weapon to the situation are all inextricably tied up in race. Which, yes, enrages me but does not blind me."

I put it to you that my way of seeing this case is more race-neutral than yours. And I put it to you that that does NOT make me a racist (outside of the residual racism all white folks have).

"Any way you slice it, a grown man hunted a teenager in dark night and killed him."

Gross oversimplification.

" The physical confrontation would have never occurred had Zimmerman stayed in his fucking car like the police told him to."

I'll agree with that.

Sorry about mispelling your username, no disrespect intended. Have a good evening.
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Jul 15, 2013 Chris in Vancouver WA commented on George Zimmerman Found Not Guilty of Murdering Trayvon Martin.
@147 & 148 - OK, I'd like to take back the "punk" & "punk-ass" (I'm home from work now so I can say naughty words on the Internet, yay!) comments I made earlier. I never knew Trayvon, so I really can't say.

tkc, sure, I'll correct myself. Trayvon was 3" taller than Zimmerman, not 4 or 5 as I said earlier. Both were under 6'. As to who could take who in a fight, it's hard to say, but until Zimmerman pulled his gun, Martin was certainly getting the better of Zimmerman.

For me, it's when it becomes a physical confrontation, that's where I feel that Zimmerman legitimately acted in self-defense, and would thus HAVE to be acquitted, regardless of anyone's feelings about racial justice (which is something that should ALWAYS be a goal of civilized society, but should play no role in a criminal courtroom.)

At that point, it's just a fight, not really any different than a drunken fight over a woman outside of a bar on a Saturday night. In a sense, Trayvon's & Zimmerman's race were taken out of the equation at that point. It doesn't matter if it's white adult-black teen, black adult-white teen, both white, or both black, given that situation - AND ONLY THAT SITUATION - and disregarding everything that happened before, I feel that any reasonable person of any race who's armed, given any racial combination, would at least pull their gun, and a big percentage would pull the trigger, and damn the consequences.

So, sadly, I don't see how you CAN'T acquit creepy (and maybe racist) George Zimmerman for killing Trayvon Martin. It sucks, but the court system needs to always acknowledge self-defense as a defense, even when we may not want it to. Who knows, any one of us might need it sometime.

I don't own a gun, I've never been into guns, but have no aversion to them, either, and I've tried to imagine if I was in Zimmerman's situation, what would I do? I'm pretty sure I'd at least pull the gun and point it at him and start yelling crazy-ass shit, and , while I'm not comfortable admitting this, I might have even done the same thing Zimmerman did. Of course, for me, Trayvon's race would have played no role, and I wouldn't have been stalking some 17 year old in the first place.

tkc & lolohorne, I appreciate your answers to my question, but I would ask, that perhaps you two aren't being so color-blind in THIS situation? Yes, this DOES look like "Angry White Guy Murders Black Kid", and of course, that does happen still today (remember the black guy that was dragged behind a truck in TX?), but it's quite a bit more complicated than that. I really believe that, to get at the real truth of this case, you've got to put away preconcieved notions about race.
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Jul 15, 2013 Chris in Vancouver WA commented on SL Letter of the Day: That Sucking Sound.
I've always thought "heteroflexible" implies that you're actually somewhat into getting blown by another guy, which doesn't sound like the case with BJS. The guys he's hooking up with might as well be fleshlights. Nothing wrong with that, of course, it's just where BJS seems to fall on the gay-straight continuum.
Jul 15, 2013 Chris in Vancouver WA commented on George Zimmerman Found Not Guilty of Murdering Trayvon Martin.
@141 - They're both punks, UFC-wannabe Zimmerman was just older, that's all.

The big question is, if it were a black adult male who shot a white teenager, would you feel the same way? How would the equation change?
Jul 15, 2013 Chris in Vancouver WA commented on George Zimmerman Found Not Guilty of Murdering Trayvon Martin.
@133 - Had Zimmerman been convicted, it would have been, attention punk-a** teenagers, you have carte blanche to jump and pound on anyone you like.
Jul 15, 2013 Chris in Vancouver WA commented on George Zimmerman Found Not Guilty of Murdering Trayvon Martin.
@127 - "This court would also be saying that maybe you should use a bit of diplomacy, tact and guile rather than immediately going to force to handle a what is a non-criminal non-hostile confrontation.

Like. Yelling from you car window "Hey Kid! Hold on a second. Sorry to scare you, man. My name's George. I'm on the neighborhood watch. But there have been burglaries in the neighborhood. You seen anything suspicous?"

And maybe Trayvon could have acted with diplomacy and tact, also.

It just points up the fact that there are no winners here, no good guy/bad guy. Everyone seems to have a wildly oversimplified version in their heads of what went down that night, and I seriously doubt that it was like that at all.
Jul 15, 2013 Chris in Vancouver WA commented on George Zimmerman Found Not Guilty of Murdering Trayvon Martin.
@127 - All of that was nullified when Trayvon threw the first punch.
 
 

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