May 17
Bonefish commented on Savage Love.
Bonefish commented on Savage Love.
Feeling used or "teased" is legit, but it's an entirely separate issue from the debate over whether or not this behavior contributes to cultural notions of entitlement over women's bodies.
For people who believe it does, it shouldn't make any difference whether the straight girl is making out with another straight girl or with a "real" lesbian that she's led on. The effect would be the same either way.
I do agree that DSGs shouldn't target lesbians; other than that, here's all I have to say on the issue of DSG's leading people on (pasted from the other thread):
Making out with people who turn out to be uninterested in anything else is something that every group experiences. Whatever reason they have for it (not really lesbian; simply uninterested in anything beyond kissing that night; in an open relationship where kissing others is the limit; etc) is mostly irrelevant.
That said, though, it's perfectly justified to be disappointed when things don't go as far as you hoped, regardless of whether you can logically justify those feelings. Which is why I'm not really getting on the case of people who get annoyed at DSGs for leading them on.
I'm more focused on people who slut-shame DSGs while ironically justifying this with baseless claims that they're an oppressive tool of the patriarchy.
To be fair I did focus on that one commenter who had somehow tricked herself into believing that women who'd dated her for two months were also drunk straight girls, but only to point out how crazy that sounds (which I think we can all agree on).
More...
For people who believe it does, it shouldn't make any difference whether the straight girl is making out with another straight girl or with a "real" lesbian that she's led on. The effect would be the same either way.
I do agree that DSGs shouldn't target lesbians; other than that, here's all I have to say on the issue of DSG's leading people on (pasted from the other thread):
Making out with people who turn out to be uninterested in anything else is something that every group experiences. Whatever reason they have for it (not really lesbian; simply uninterested in anything beyond kissing that night; in an open relationship where kissing others is the limit; etc) is mostly irrelevant.
That said, though, it's perfectly justified to be disappointed when things don't go as far as you hoped, regardless of whether you can logically justify those feelings. Which is why I'm not really getting on the case of people who get annoyed at DSGs for leading them on.
I'm more focused on people who slut-shame DSGs while ironically justifying this with baseless claims that they're an oppressive tool of the patriarchy.
To be fair I did focus on that one commenter who had somehow tricked herself into believing that women who'd dated her for two months were also drunk straight girls, but only to point out how crazy that sounds (which I think we can all agree on).
May 17
Bonefish commented on Savage Love.
Bonefish commented on Savage Love.
167: Obviously it can, as many of the slut-shamers here (who I believe to be reinforcing patriarchal values) are women.
Their specific theory on exactly HOW DSGs reinforce patriarchal values, however, are invalid. Not because DSGs are women, but because the root of social entitlement over women's bodies does not originate from drunk straight girls making out with each other, even if they're doing this to impress a guy.
I'm also dubious on the idea that they're mocking other women's sexuality. It's a sexual behavior in itself. As I pointed out before, our species isn't divided into "100% gay * exactly 50/50 bi * 100% straight" categories. Some people are "just bi enough" to get off on making out with the same sex while flirting/fucking with the opposite sex.
It's a different story if someone is "dared" to "go make out with that dyke." THAT would be mocking lesbians (though that shitty behavior is a different issue than that of reinforcing patriarchal norms).
I'm sure some particularly closeted/conflicted DSGs are engaging in that type of mocking (and I don't defend those ones), but the majority of them are just drunkenly playing around. This might not be very dignified, but neither is sex itself.
More...
Their specific theory on exactly HOW DSGs reinforce patriarchal values, however, are invalid. Not because DSGs are women, but because the root of social entitlement over women's bodies does not originate from drunk straight girls making out with each other, even if they're doing this to impress a guy.
I'm also dubious on the idea that they're mocking other women's sexuality. It's a sexual behavior in itself. As I pointed out before, our species isn't divided into "100% gay * exactly 50/50 bi * 100% straight" categories. Some people are "just bi enough" to get off on making out with the same sex while flirting/fucking with the opposite sex.
It's a different story if someone is "dared" to "go make out with that dyke." THAT would be mocking lesbians (though that shitty behavior is a different issue than that of reinforcing patriarchal norms).
I'm sure some particularly closeted/conflicted DSGs are engaging in that type of mocking (and I don't defend those ones), but the majority of them are just drunkenly playing around. This might not be very dignified, but neither is sex itself.
May 17
Bonefish commented on SL Letters of the Day: Just Say No to DSGs.
Bonefish commented on SL Letters of the Day: Just Say No to DSGs.
66: That's fine. But really, making out with people who turn out to be uninterested in anything else is something that every group experiences. Whatever reason they have for it (not really lesbian; simply uninterested in anything beyond kissing that night; in an open relationship where kissing others is the limit; etc) is mostly irrelevant.
That said, though, it's perfectly justified to be disappointed when things don't go as far as you hoped, regardless of whether you can logically justify those feelings. Which is why I'm not really getting on the case of people who get annoyed at DSGs for leading them on.
I'm more focused on people who slut-shame DSGs while ironically justifying this with baseless claims that they're an oppressive tool of the patriarchy.
That said, though, it's perfectly justified to be disappointed when things don't go as far as you hoped, regardless of whether you can logically justify those feelings. Which is why I'm not really getting on the case of people who get annoyed at DSGs for leading them on.
I'm more focused on people who slut-shame DSGs while ironically justifying this with baseless claims that they're an oppressive tool of the patriarchy.
May 17
Bonefish commented on Savage Love.
Bonefish commented on Savage Love.
160:
"But this is directed at a DSG, who thinks she's not doing anything wrong. And while I don't think there's anything morally wrong about it, but it's fucking hard to yell at men for assuming that two women making out are doing it for their pleasure when there's some chick running around doing exactly that. "
Without an actual causative connection between DSGs and entitled pricks, and there isn't one, it doesn't matter how many of them are in the room while you're berating that entitled prick.
His entitlement issues are his own fault: For the fifth time; if a guy feels "entitled" to blowjobs, we don't blame all the women who go around giving guys blowjobs. Women's behavior doesn't "give" men entitlement issues; larger cultural patriarchal values, combined with individual selfishness or stupidity, gives men entitlement issues.
It doesn't matter whether any given guy is basing his idiocy on girls he watched 5 years ago or girls he's watching right that very second: it's still his own damn fault he's drawing idiotic conclusions from other people's behavior. If DSGs vanished from the face of the earth, he'd still be an entitled prick with woman issues, and he'd still act accordingly.
As far as it being tacky and cheap: I agree; though I think tying cherry stems with your mouth is equally tacky. But two things:
1) That observation fits right into "if you don't like it don't fucking do it" territory, and
2) Be honest about THAT being the (subjective and immaterial) reason you dislike it. Don't try and force some sociological significance onto it that it doesn't have.
It's the people doing the latter that I'm arguing against. You'll notice that at no point did I ever argue against notions that it's "tacky" or a turn-off.
More...
"But this is directed at a DSG, who thinks she's not doing anything wrong. And while I don't think there's anything morally wrong about it, but it's fucking hard to yell at men for assuming that two women making out are doing it for their pleasure when there's some chick running around doing exactly that. "
Without an actual causative connection between DSGs and entitled pricks, and there isn't one, it doesn't matter how many of them are in the room while you're berating that entitled prick.
His entitlement issues are his own fault: For the fifth time; if a guy feels "entitled" to blowjobs, we don't blame all the women who go around giving guys blowjobs. Women's behavior doesn't "give" men entitlement issues; larger cultural patriarchal values, combined with individual selfishness or stupidity, gives men entitlement issues.
It doesn't matter whether any given guy is basing his idiocy on girls he watched 5 years ago or girls he's watching right that very second: it's still his own damn fault he's drawing idiotic conclusions from other people's behavior. If DSGs vanished from the face of the earth, he'd still be an entitled prick with woman issues, and he'd still act accordingly.
As far as it being tacky and cheap: I agree; though I think tying cherry stems with your mouth is equally tacky. But two things:
1) That observation fits right into "if you don't like it don't fucking do it" territory, and
2) Be honest about THAT being the (subjective and immaterial) reason you dislike it. Don't try and force some sociological significance onto it that it doesn't have.
It's the people doing the latter that I'm arguing against. You'll notice that at no point did I ever argue against notions that it's "tacky" or a turn-off.
May 16
Bonefish commented on Savage Love.
Bonefish commented on Savage Love.
133: It's not just "nice" to hold these men responsible for their own actions; it's accurate.
There are men who feel like every woman's nice ass, or skimpy outfit, or big rack (etc), is "for" them. This isn't caused by women having nice asses, skimpy outfits, or big racks.
Similarly, men who feel like they're entitled to witness every lesbian makeout session are just one more example of this. Making out with other girls to impress guys is just one of many quasi-sexual activities that people have a right to enjoy. It doesn't cause entitlement any more than giving blowjobs "causes" men to feel entitled to blowjobs. DSGs aren’t communicating that “lesbianism is ‘for’ men” any more than a blowjob communicates that “women’s mouths are ‘for’ men.” It’s his own fault if he leaps to faulty, sexist, entitled conclusions about women based on a night’s activities. This entitlement is simply one manifestation of a much broader culture of entitlement that has little to do with DSGs specifically.
To blame the DSGs is like blaming women who wear skimpy outfits or women who give blowjobs for the entitlement that (sexist) men feel over women's bodies in general. It inaccurately shifts the blame away from the cultural forces and sexists who are actually responsible for such attitudes.
It's nothing more than deflection and slut-shaming, and you may want to examine that more closely before you lecture anyone else on which behaviors reinforce patriarchal norms.
More...
There are men who feel like every woman's nice ass, or skimpy outfit, or big rack (etc), is "for" them. This isn't caused by women having nice asses, skimpy outfits, or big racks.
Similarly, men who feel like they're entitled to witness every lesbian makeout session are just one more example of this. Making out with other girls to impress guys is just one of many quasi-sexual activities that people have a right to enjoy. It doesn't cause entitlement any more than giving blowjobs "causes" men to feel entitled to blowjobs. DSGs aren’t communicating that “lesbianism is ‘for’ men” any more than a blowjob communicates that “women’s mouths are ‘for’ men.” It’s his own fault if he leaps to faulty, sexist, entitled conclusions about women based on a night’s activities. This entitlement is simply one manifestation of a much broader culture of entitlement that has little to do with DSGs specifically.
To blame the DSGs is like blaming women who wear skimpy outfits or women who give blowjobs for the entitlement that (sexist) men feel over women's bodies in general. It inaccurately shifts the blame away from the cultural forces and sexists who are actually responsible for such attitudes.
It's nothing more than deflection and slut-shaming, and you may want to examine that more closely before you lecture anyone else on which behaviors reinforce patriarchal norms.
May 16
Bonefish commented on SL Letters of the Day: Just Say No to DSGs.
Bonefish commented on SL Letters of the Day: Just Say No to DSGs.
So I posted pretty damn early in this thread about how it's complete bullshit to believe that DSGs are responsible for straight boy entitlement issues regarding lesbians.
Yet here we still have people (like #44) insisting that this is the case without actually giving any logical reason that the blame falls on the DSGs instead of the DSBs themselves.
If any of you DSG-blamers could actually refute the arguments I offer, rather than simply repeating your insistence that DSGs "cause" entitled DSBs, I might take you a little more seriously.
Until then, you just sound like yet another category of slut-shamer.
Yet here we still have people (like #44) insisting that this is the case without actually giving any logical reason that the blame falls on the DSGs instead of the DSBs themselves.
If any of you DSG-blamers could actually refute the arguments I offer, rather than simply repeating your insistence that DSGs "cause" entitled DSBs, I might take you a little more seriously.
Until then, you just sound like yet another category of slut-shamer.
May 15
Bonefish commented on SL Letters of the Day: Just Say No to DSGs.
Bonefish commented on SL Letters of the Day: Just Say No to DSGs.
Just going to paste a couple of my points from the other thread into this one to preempt the inevitable "DSGs are the root of all lesbo-phobia!" trolls:
For all those claiming that DSGs cause harm by perpetuating straight boy bullshit about the “purpose” of lesbians:
First this one:
People who doubt the existence of genuine bisexuality and lesbianism are simply homophobic, stupid assholes. They are not “caused” by DSGs. They may bring them up as argument fodder from time to time, but the homophobia and stupidity are what’s causing them to confuse DSGs with bi/lesbianism; not vice versa. They would still be stupid homophobes if there were no such thing as DSGs.
DSGs are nothing more than one of the many inevitable manifestations of humanity’s fluid “gradient” of sexuality: just queer enough to enjoy some same-sex makeouts while the other sex watches/participates. Our species simply doesn’t fit neatly into “100% straight – exactly 50/50 bisexual – 100% gay.” People along any part of this gradient should do what they like, and when morons point at them and draw moronic inferences, the right answer is to yell at the morons, not at the people they’re watching.
Same thing with the guys who demand that “real” lesbians make out to entertain them. Why on earth would you search for some loose logical connection that allows you to blame some random women (DSGs or otherwise) rather than blaming the entitled asshole himself for being an entitled asshole?
And then this one:
Women who perform an act “for” a guy aren’t grooming that guy to expect said act from all women. A guy is responsible for his own outlook on women. For example:
Several women have had sex with me. If I therefore expect all women to just automatically have sex with me, whose fault is that: theirs, or mine?
Even more women have given me blowjobs. If I then turn around and start thinking it’s a given that sucking my dick is just something I should expect all women to do, whose fault is that: theirs, or mine?
Should women everywhere stop giving blowjobs or fucking in order to avoid potentially validating the misconceptions of entitled, sexist men?
You can see where I’m going here. If some guy automatically expects something of all women because a few have done that thing for him in the past, that’s on HIM. It’s his fault for being an asshole, not their fault for not policing their own behavior with the (impossible) goal of never doing anything that a guy might later expect women in general to do for him.
There’s no reason this logic shouldn’t also apply to drunk chicks making out with each other to entertain a guy. If he then expects that to be the “role” of all lesbians or all women, that’s HIS fault for being an entitled, moronic prick. It’s not their fault for failing to baby him.
More...
For all those claiming that DSGs cause harm by perpetuating straight boy bullshit about the “purpose” of lesbians:
First this one:
People who doubt the existence of genuine bisexuality and lesbianism are simply homophobic, stupid assholes. They are not “caused” by DSGs. They may bring them up as argument fodder from time to time, but the homophobia and stupidity are what’s causing them to confuse DSGs with bi/lesbianism; not vice versa. They would still be stupid homophobes if there were no such thing as DSGs.
DSGs are nothing more than one of the many inevitable manifestations of humanity’s fluid “gradient” of sexuality: just queer enough to enjoy some same-sex makeouts while the other sex watches/participates. Our species simply doesn’t fit neatly into “100% straight – exactly 50/50 bisexual – 100% gay.” People along any part of this gradient should do what they like, and when morons point at them and draw moronic inferences, the right answer is to yell at the morons, not at the people they’re watching.
Same thing with the guys who demand that “real” lesbians make out to entertain them. Why on earth would you search for some loose logical connection that allows you to blame some random women (DSGs or otherwise) rather than blaming the entitled asshole himself for being an entitled asshole?
And then this one:
Women who perform an act “for” a guy aren’t grooming that guy to expect said act from all women. A guy is responsible for his own outlook on women. For example:
Several women have had sex with me. If I therefore expect all women to just automatically have sex with me, whose fault is that: theirs, or mine?
Even more women have given me blowjobs. If I then turn around and start thinking it’s a given that sucking my dick is just something I should expect all women to do, whose fault is that: theirs, or mine?
Should women everywhere stop giving blowjobs or fucking in order to avoid potentially validating the misconceptions of entitled, sexist men?
You can see where I’m going here. If some guy automatically expects something of all women because a few have done that thing for him in the past, that’s on HIM. It’s his fault for being an asshole, not their fault for not policing their own behavior with the (impossible) goal of never doing anything that a guy might later expect women in general to do for him.
There’s no reason this logic shouldn’t also apply to drunk chicks making out with each other to entertain a guy. If he then expects that to be the “role” of all lesbians or all women, that’s HIS fault for being an entitled, moronic prick. It’s not their fault for failing to baby him.
May 15
Bonefish commented on Savage Love.
Bonefish commented on Savage Love.
Seriously people; how difficult is it so difficult to wrap your heads around the notion that straight men are responsible for their own misconceptions about lesbian women? Why is it ALWAYS necessary to dig up some excuse to blame other women?
I'd expect this kind of shit from beaten-down Mormon sisterwives, but not from self-described "out and proud" lesbians.
I'd expect this kind of shit from beaten-down Mormon sisterwives, but not from self-described "out and proud" lesbians.
May 15
Bonefish commented on Savage Love.
Bonefish commented on Savage Love.
93: You should hate the people who question the existence of bisexuality and lesbianism, not the DSGs that they cling to as their flimsy excuse.
Read my posts to find out why! :D
Read my posts to find out why! :D
The Stranger
RSSSeattle Art & Performance Quarterly
A complete guide to Seattle's current art, film, dance, and theater season.
Facebook
Twitter
Saying "they shouldn't target lesbians because that's bad form" isn't slut-shaming.
Saying "they shouldn't make out with each other at all because that causes men to think X and Y" absolutely IS slut-shaming.