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Jul 25, 2012 at 4:00 am
This Faggoty, Dope-Huffing "Newspaper" Thinks the City and County Should Approve a New NBA and NHL Stadium in Sodo
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800 Maynard Ave S, Suite 200, Seattle, WA 98134
800 Maynard Ave S, Suite 200, Seattle, WA 98134
The rest of us can eat cake
Did anyone else notice that the arena debt service gets repaid with property taxes revenues but the city/county owned building doesn't pay property taxes. That's the rest of the property tax payers not only paying more, but those payments being funneled to $35M in debt service. Sounds like a double-subsidy to me.
In a day and age when the Seattle Times is nothing more than a mouthpiece for Frank Blethen's personal agenda, it's great we have a news outlet such as The Strangers telling it like it is. Someone has to.
Unless you are referring to the Port's concerns as the public risk (which is based merely upon speculation and data collected in 2003 see Seattle Times), then what risks are you specifically concerned about?
http://www.sonicsarena.com/news/why-is-p…
In this regard, while it is true that there is a financial benefit to us from using the City’s and County’s bonding capacity—as these public entities currently have a lower cost of borrowing than would be afforded us by the private sector—the primary benefit to us is that the City and County are contributing back the direct tax revenues from the project, as opposed to the interest rate differential between the public and private financing rate.
You act as if there could only be one reason, in fact, there could be a multitude of reasons.
The UW School of Economics, my program, has always refused to do same - much to their academic credibility. The Department of Geography used to do these, but no longer does - I'd suspect, at least in part, due the personal experience of moi in that regard.
The points of Baconcat are however right on target, but someone does need to do it and a Stranger/McGinn team has a much better shot at doing it right than anyone else...
Time will tell.
I love you guys and agree with you 90% of the time, but you are deeply fucking wrong on this one.
We've done a bunch of these deals, all of which were were supposed to be great for the city, and we've always ended up getting screwed in the end. I'm not convinced that it's somehow going to different this time. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.
There, fixed that for you.
"We've done a bunch of these deals, all of which were were supposed to be great for the city, and we've always ended up getting screwed in the end."
But this time it will be different because this time:
a. the millionaires will own the team not like those other times when the millionaires owned the teams.
b. the government will pay for the stadium not like those other times when the government paid for the stadiums.
See? Completely different this time.
Therefore, guaranteed money for everyone!
And no risk for anyone except that millionaire who will not take any steps at all to protect his investment.
Anyone else notice anything about the above?
If they want public funds, put the fucking thing up to a public vote.
If the NBA decides to eliminate the team, they call that "contraction", requiring all of the other franchise owners to buy and close the franchise.
In New Orleans the league chose to buy the franchise (putting all of the other owners on the hook), pay all the outstanding bills, and resell the franchise at a profit.
The MOU states that the Sonics owner can not borrow against more than 40% of the franchise equity, the rest must remain untouched so that in the event of everything Larry Phillips imagines could happen the sale of the franchise would repay Seattle and King County. Franchise values are between 350 and 400 million.
Apart from the Sonics and KeyArena, which deals are you referring to? Taxes from Safeco Field have ended and the taxes to fund the Seahawks/Sounders stadium are almost entirely levied on out of town visitors.
"We've done a bunch of these deals, all of which were were supposed to be great for the city, and we've always ended up getting screwed in the end."
What deals are you referring to? Safeco and Seahawks/Sounders stadiums have been overwhelmingly successful. The taxes to fund Safeco have already ended and unless you're visiting from out of town or going to the stadium, the taxes from the Clink wouldn't impact you at all.
And nary a dissenter among you?
Fuck you, Stranger. What a bunch of hypocrites you are. Stick to writing about safe cocaine and sophomoric irony and leave policy to people that know what the fuck they're talking about.
You know that mariners had a 10% profit sharing provision and they found a way to lose $200M before Safeco opened so that they've never shared in any profits. We won't get any share of profits when the team gets sold either.
Everyone knows about the restaurant taxes and the hotel taxes, but the second biggest revenue sources for the debt on Safeco and Clink is the state giving sales taxes to the county. So, you're comparing a state legislature funding vs something mostly funded by the city for the majority-east side ticketholders.
http://www.leg.wa.gov/JointCommittees/LF…
That's the dumbest section. A lot of us love this city and the fun of it more than you can imagine, and don't like to see us take a deal we don't have to.
"explain how we've been screwed in the football and baseball stadium?"
Increased taxes on hotels, restaurants, car rentals and such.
And it's not just on game days.
Why did you not know about those taxes?
Uh. Ever here of the Kingdome?
The AVERAGE NBA ticket is $50! The Lakers average ticket price is $100. The Knick average ticket price is almost $120. None of that includes premium tickets.
Like major league baseball is becoming, professional level basketball is a sport owned and for rich people. Which I have no problem with. As long as they pay for it themselves. But they don't. Thanks to morons who keep falling for the same shit over and over.
Any notion The Stranger has of some average Seattle Working Stiff taking their kids to the New Sonics for anything less than $150-$300 a game is fucking absurd.
Arena Tax Revenue (which is what pays off the city and county, outside of their ownership of the building and land): "...is the dollar amount
of: (i) all sales tax, property tax, leasehold excise tax, and admission tax revenues, as well as other tax revenues attributable to the Arena and Arena Tenant Improvements that have been received by the City or the County on and from the Project Site and Arena, and from all uses and activities conducted thereon, except for those tax revenues that are subject to legal restrictions that preclude their use either for payment of Arena-related debt or expenses hereunder (other than parking taxes attributable by contract to the Arena) plus (ii) City business tax revenues imposed under Chapter 5.45 SMC or any successor provision that the City has reasonably determined it received from ArenaCo and from other business activities engaged in, at, or from the Arena (including without limitation revenues from the business activities that have a substantial nexus with the City). "
Did you attend Seattle schools?
"Show us where that is in the MOU, because I don't think it is."
Comprehension not your strong point, huh?
Did you manage to miss the question to which that was the answer? It was about the previous stadiums.
Now can you spend a little bit more effort on comprehension so you don't publicly embarrass yourself again?
I even quoted it in my reply.
He also has a four-way every night with a blonde, a redhead, and a brunette, and eats ice cream for breakfast, lunch, and dinner and never gets fat.
But, the high-falutin' claims of anonymous Internet commenters aside, some high schools adjust GPAs upwards when students take AP and honors courses, which is fucking stupid, but there it is.
I have to assume the economic impact study being quoted was paid for by someone wanting to build a new stadium at the time.
Here is what it didn't consider:
The Substitution Effect: Sports are just one form of entertainment. Without an NBA franchise, the people here spend the portion of their entertainment budget currently dedicated to the pro basketball on something else (i.e. dining out, movies, etc…).
The Crowding-Out Effect: Sporting events attract crowds. When people know those crowds are going to appears, those who are not attending the sporting event tend to avoid the general area. For example, Baade and Matheson note that the 2008 Olympics in Beijing failed to increase the number of tourists in Beijing in August of 2008 relative to what the same city saw in August of 2007.
Leakages: Most NBA Players who play for Seattle won't live in the city outside of the NBA Season, and some won't live in the city inside the season (see Lake Sammamish). So, while there would be 12 highly paid employees of the new team, the city would see little of that multimillion dollar payroll spent in the city.
Also - fuck Oklahoma City
(and, the people who think we'll get an NHL franchise when we've never sold out an NHL pre-season exhibition game are drinking the crazy juice again...)
"Bonds being paid off ahead of time for both stadiums."
Yeah, and if the question was about whether the bonds were being paid or not then that would be relevant.
But the point was that when I went out to eat in Seattle I paid additional taxes to fund the stadium even on non-game nights.
Again, how is it that you do not know about those taxes?
And don't forget residents who mostly rely on transit and rent a car for the occasional day trip or whatever. Also, aren't Zip Cars taxed the same as rentals? It's totally acceptable to tax car-less people extra to fund a stadium. It's not like they're trying to help the environment or anything.
MLS will go wherever people ask for MLS, because just like Europe, they can basically have minor league teams in the league that get promoted and demoted depending on the kind of talent the franchise is willing to pay for (i.e. it's cheap and it doesn't hurt the league to have a failed franchise at this point).
The NHL has never placed a franchise in a city that didn't 1st sell out a pre-season exhibition game that was placed there.
Ergo - we ain't getting an NHL team...unless you get a ton of friends to go to the next exhibition game that pops up at the Key.
Suck it, Eastside!
Take off your partisan foil hats for a second and just compare the Stanger editorial with the crap ST puts out.
Seriously, fuck, they aren't helping the anti-arena side with shit like that.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/ed…
-- Sent from my HP TouchPad
How about we get Eyman to run that petition? How would you feel about it then?
If Bellevue wants the baneful ballparks, they're more than welcome to them.
I feel like valuing fun and nerdiness/oddities is a part of what gives Seattle it's delightful nature. And powers its wide variety and large number of festivals/events.
Thanks!
That already happened! It was for I-91, which passed. This MOU meets the requirements laid out in I-91 and the reason for the "taxes" (which come from use of the stadium so if you don't go you don't pay) is for the City/County to make a profit off the deal (thereby complying with I-91 WHICH WAS VOTED ON!!!)
And to those of you that are going to say "Well, what about the increase in property taxes?" The increase comes from property values rising in the SoDo. Not to your house in Greenlake. I'm sure Chris Hansen is very sorry the land you own by the stadium would be worth more for you if an arena is built.
Seriously. Read the MOU and get your facts right, people. It's embarrassing that there is so much uninformed blathering in here - I thought us Stranger readers were supposed to be intelligent liberal elitists????
It is ironic that in the same issue in which the Stranger skewers Mitt Romney for being a rich asshole you announce support for other rich assholes. So what gives....did Hansen and his friends buy you off?
Could it be the arena deal isn't that great, and rich fucks want the guarantees provided by the city and county before they chip in. So what did Hansen bribe you guys with....pizza and beer?
I personally am a movie buff and that is my choice of entertainment not sports not that I have anything against those that do. No public money is used to finance multi-plexes with the latest state of the art everything. When they become obsolete they either are renovated by the operator or closed and I pay for it with my ticket price. This historical model of public financing in all or part for these sports arenas is bogus and needs to stop. Let the millionaire owners and millionaire players and or their investors pony up the cash needed to house their private business enterprise. Corporations are not people. The public needs to be investing in rapid transit, fixing our notoriously bad roads and so forth. And please stop with the nonsense that this is a no lose proposition. As we know shit happens. The Sonics supposedly had a clause that prevented them from leaving Seattle and we all know how that turned out. In twenty years or less what is to prevent Hansen from coming back whining that the facility is outmoded and needs to be upgraded or he is taking his team and leaving in spite of his "no move" clause. If they secure an NHL franchise those owners in several years will be whining that they need their own arena for hockey. That's the problem, it never stops. Just how much cumulative public debt are we going to be on the hook for as a result of professional sports. I wish that there was this kind of resolve to improve public education in this town or to lower the cost of attending UW.
Read the voters' lips no public funding of any kind to build a basketball arena. We've been there and done that.
Their common interest would be in developing an efficient transportation infrastructure. The city of Seattle and the Port could probably use Hanson's investment dollars and (maybe) innovative ideas, but the Port's longevity has got to be assured!
Sorry, that was right over the plate. Wait, that's a sports reference you won't understand.
here are reasons AGAINST the stadium
I have not seen reflected elsewhere just yet:
1. Hidden Dollar coast
Even if the public appears to not pay much directly,
here are the hidden untold costs:
* increased traffic. costs the public, public transit a lot.
more wasted gasoline, lack of affordable parking during events
* stadium construction binds precious construction resources.
It is not that we can ramp construction up and down as we wish.
Trained construction jobs and contractors are precious reseources.
We need them for more important infrastructure projects.
As a result, because of the law of supply and demand,
and because supply cannot simply be ramped up,
and because of competition over other resources
that will drive up costs for other seemingly unrelated public projects.
* It enables the ongoing ever more greedy attitude by teams.
the old stadiums dont do it anymore, heh ? By enabling this,
there are more costs in the future from supporting this kind of
greed.
2. costs to the planet, society
* in an age of where people truly need to
devote more time for more community based action,
more sustainable local smaller-scale fun
this is just more extravaganza than we need
* we play into the hands of the powers-that-be
who want to keep us distracted with senseless
repetitive entertainment. we have already enough
sports entertainment. the people are supposed to
be kept stupified by triva-based entertainment.
Infatuation with rooting for a team keeps people
divided in some perverse way rather than uniting
for a common cause.
* more carbon emissions from both increased traffic
and construction.
3. political cost
* if this goes wrong, people will get ever more
cynical about government. cynicism blocks us from
working together, creating more effective government
because it makes us disengaged from getting involved.
that too is what the powers-that-be scretly want to happen.
Right.