Savage Love Apr 12, 2017 at 4:00 am

Hard Limits

Comments

2
Last letter: end it now. At 29, she is also in prime to find someone new.

Though if she's anything like my female friends, she'll waste a year+ 'getting over' this, then spend 30-32 lamenting she's over the hill, then hit 35 and realize she's still been young all along, and wasted it feeling old.
3
@1 Wow, Hunter, you're on a roll, after hitting last week's big number. I don't understand your use of the letter d in presumedly "first", though--?
Dan the Man: Kudos for spot on sage advice to NAWT: "You already made the dog mistake. Get out before you make the child mistake."
4
Why is the LW1 advice different from the LW2 advice? To me, they sound like similar problems.
5
I'd say that LW2's solution isn't that simple. It would really bother me if I had a bi partner who could not admit or talk about being bi. Eventually the desire to explore is going to come out, and if the partner can't talk about it, he will sneak around. If he could talk about it, they could factor it into their sex life. So the self-acceptance and communication are important.

6
Yes! Dan could not be more right!! Get out before you make the child mistake!!!
7
Dan's been too sweet and nice with his responses for the past 6+ months it seems. Finally, back to telling people the truth: our lives are fucking messy.
8
Where are 21-year-olds getting the money for diamond bracelets? How can you be 20 and appear to have never heard bisexuality is a thing, and that a person need not be either straight or lesbian/gay? Perplexed, inquiring older minds want to know.
9
SHOTDOWN – "...she doesn't want to do anything anymore other than missionary-position sex" but it's the best sex you ever had? Oh, my poor misguided 27-year-old male! Shit, son! Is this the FIRST sex you ever had? Was the wife THAT lousy of a lay? Haven't you ever fucked a sheep? (They're the BEST!) Hate to tell you, but in twenty years, after you have had anal, oral, watching porn together, bondage, voyeurism, etc... this won't be the best sex you ever had. Don't settle! Either find a way to get your GF to loosen up (counseling, heart to heart talks, diamond bracelets ala LW2) or get out and let her have the vanilla life she wants. If things don't change, just admit you're not compatible and say, "I'll always cherish our time together."

CONFUSED/CURIOUS – Straight guys like to get pegged, but straight guys don't put ads on Craigslist and arrange secret fuck sessions with other guys. Not even for fun. Especially not for fun. Denial isn't just a river in Egypt.

NAWT – (And this goes for you too, SHOTDOWN) Bad sex, incompatible sex tastes and cavities in your teeth DON'T magically get better if you just ignore them. As per my advice to LW1, either fix the problem NOW or get out while the gettin' is good! Your future self will thank you.
10
Why do some idiots think that jewelry is a good apology gift? Here's a hint, people: don't buy your S/O a souvenir of the asshole thing you did! Now every time she looks at the bracelet she can be reminded of what you did, and every time a friend asks about the bracelet she'll be tempted to mention how she got it.

Apology gifts should always be consumable, biodegradable, or otherwise gone within a week.
11
Griz @3: Someone a few weeks back was so excited to make the first post that they misspelled it, and Hunter's run with that since.

CAC: Come here so I can slap you repeatedly about the fucking face. Your question literally made me aaaarggghhh out loud. HAVE YOU NOT HEARD THE FREAKING 'B' WORD, YOU MORON? Your boyfriend is bi-curious, possibly bisexual, definitely not gay. He's closeted for now. Stop being a fucking moron and "bringing up the Craigslist incident" in the context of asking whether he's gay; if you must mention it at all, tell him that there's nothing wrong with being bisexual and you think the idea of watching two guys together is hot. (Bonus: It's true; watching guys get it on IS hot!) Then maybe he'll open up to you instead of cheating on you, once he reaches the point where he is more comfortable with or desperate to confirm his bisexuality.

Nothing to add to Dan's perfect answers to LW1 and LW3.
12
Attention everyone: due to widespread misuse, the word gaslighting will henceforth be legally restricted, and licences only issued for its use on a case-by-case basis.

Contradicting someone does not, on its own, constitute gaslighting. An isolated lie or two isn't gaslighting either. To gaslight someone is to manipulate them - generally in a deliberate and systematic manner - to doubt their own sanity. There's another word for simply insisting that another person's opinion or perception of things is wrong: arguing.

On another note, I've implemented a similar restricted status for the word bullying.
13
Emma @4: Do you mean LW1 and LW3? Off the top of my head, I'd say the difference is the ages involved. LW3's vanilla girlfriend wants marriage and possibly kids. LW1's vanilla girlfriend is older and wiser and probably knows full well that this is a rebound fling and that her young lover will move on.

I'm not sure why Dan didn't suggest LW1 ask to open the relationship. Trust me, having amazing vanilla sex is much more satisfying when you also have the option to indulge your kinks with others.
15
Dan's answer to CAC surprised me. I thought he would tell CAC to apologize to her boyfriend both for snooping and for reacting badly to what she found, and then to tell her boyfriend that if he feels a need to explore with craigslist-guy to go ahead. At the very least, she should examine her feelings of being bothered. Is she bothered by the possibility that her boyfriend is secretly gay (totally legitimate)* or by the possibility that her boyfriend wants to cheat on her (totally legitimate)? Mostly I'm disturbed by the idea of buying forgiveness with diamond bracelets-- but then, I possess no valuable jewelry. Maybe I can be bought cheap.

*I've just reread before sending. Nothing wrong with being gay (obviously). Perfectly okay for a straight woman not to want to be in a relationship with a gay man (if that's the case).
16
At first SHOTDOWN's letter had too many contradictions in it for me to make sense of it. He says it's the best sex he's had except that it's too vanilla for him. He says that she wants him to make the moves but then doesn't want to try anything he brings up. I wondered if he was saying that the sex was great when they got started a year ago and then dwindled into a missionary rut. Now I'm wondering if SHOTDOWN's girlfriend has rape fantasies that she's afraid to act on. She sure seems to be hinting that she wants to remain passive while he takes charge while not actually consenting to anything when given a chance.

I recommend being just a tad more assertive when in the heat of the moment. You're inside her missionary style. Now lift one of her legs until it's bent up towards her chest. Thrust a few times from there. See if she objects. Assuming she doesn't, lift her other leg. Gently hold the legs in place. Keep going. Another time, say "roll with me" and with some momentum, flip both of you over. Now she's on top. Another time, while playing around with foreplay, just go down on her. If she wants to object, she certainly can, but if she moans softly, keep going. Another time, get her turned on, then say "suck my dick" and present it to her. Again, if she doesn't want to, she can just not do it, but I'm guessing it's more likely that she will. Don't ask her if she'd watch porn with you. Choose something you think she'd like, bring it home, put it on to play and say "watch this with me." Keep your tone neutral. You're not commanding her, and if she wants to run out of the room, she can, but make it plain that you're enjoying it and think she might too.

If she does object even with the gentle nudging, do not be grateful for what you have. You're young, not committed to her, and there's someone more compatible with you somewhere out there. Be kind, but break up with her.
17
@12 Thank you, I fully concur that Dan stretched past the definition of gaslighting into a word I like to call disagreement. Sadly he knew it already and did it anyway with that crappy "low bar" disclaimer.
18
"My girlfriend thinks I'm searching for something I'll never find and says I need to work through it." No, just look on OkCupid and you can find non-vanilla women who are non-monogamous. So, you may not get everything you want, but you can find that. Dan was spot on here.

As for SHOTDOWN, your girlfriend is 42, and is claiming that she's too old for any position other than missionary? Marianne Dashwood might have thought that Colonel Brandon was old at 35 in 1792, but this is 2017, and 42 is too young to limit sex to just missionary in an otherwise healthy individual. I think this relationship has run its course. Call it a successful post-divorce relationship and start looking for your next girlfriend.
19
Ah, # 14, I bet you say that to all the comment sections. C'mon, we know that in fact it is very typical of you.
20
@15 Really?

I understand that we are in a world where being monogamish or poly or whatever is fine and it works for many relationships, including mine for the first decade of it. But I don't understand at all how people keep getting this mixed up with deceit or a go-to that people must accept nonmonogamy in their own relationships.

Sure, she shouldn't have snooped. The bf did not actually cheat, as far as we know, but he did plan to. They have to resolve their own trust going forward regarding her snooping and his attempts to arrange hook ups. I don't see how it's the LW that's being any more unreasonable or needing more scolding than the bf.

The LW does not seem bothered by the bf's bisexuality or fantasies. She went out and bought a strap on and pegged him which seems really GGG. She is worried he might secretly be gay and needing reassurance that he's not. Dan gave her that reassurance. It's a valid concern. There are people who walk out on marriages and families after coming out. And if you're really worried that your bf might secretly be fucking other people (and finding out that he goes online and arranges hookups to fuck other people is something that would make that worry seem pretty damn real) then you have every right to know it as it might change the choices you make in your relationship, including super important issues like shared finances, long term plans, having children, getting married and STD prevention/screening. So no, I don't think she's being unreasonable at all for being concerned about either the cheating or his being gay.

And as for BDF and others' suggestions that she's an idiot for not automatically thinking "bi"- well maybe. There are still plenty of people who don't believe that bi people exist. But I took the letter to be more about a concern that she's really worried that he's actually gay and in denial. The fact that he won't even talk about it shows me that there is some shame, and shame can go a long way in keeping people in the closet. She might not be handling it as gracefully as one could, but keep in mind that she did just discover him arranging to cheat on her. She's allowed to be confused and emotional.

Also I don't get this idea that she needs to give him permission to fuck men. Uh, no. If she's into that sort of open relationship, great they will have even more fun. As BDF says, two guys together are really hot and Dan did suggest a MMF in the future which would be a supportive way to make it easier for him to enjoy his own fantasies plus make it fun and non-threatening for her. (If I could be so lucky in my own marriage...) But she doesn't need to be that person. She might not want an open relationship. She might not want to be the comfortable piece back home while her bf goes out and explores new sexual experiences. No one needs to be told to do that. This is all entirely on the LW's bf. He needs to be honest with himself. He needs some self-awareness about his own sexuality. He needs to decide what experiences he wants to have and which ones he wants to leave up to his fantasies. Then he needs to honestly discuss this with his gf and tell her what he wants. At which point she can decide if it's compatible with what she wants. She needs to be honest and understanding, but she is in no way required to open up her relationship and encourage him to go fuck men to be a good gf. It's bizarre to me that this is what we are getting to- that everyone should just encourage everyone else to do anything they want or else we aren't being GGG. That's not how people work.
21
Emma @20: "There are still plenty of people who don't believe that bi people exist."

Yes. They're called idiots.
Men who are gay don't enjoy sex with women. This man enjoys sex with women. That rules out his being gay!

I agree with Fichu, I'm surprised Dan didn't scold CAC for snooping. Or for assuming that "enjoys butt play" equals "queer" in the first place. Granted, there was some fire with the smoke here, but as Donny says, quite a few straight guys are submissive and like butt play.

I am SO glad I am no longer 20.
23
I'm not sure I'm in the "never snoop" camp. What else do you do if (probably for good reason) you suspect your SO is up to something? It would be nice to just say, "talk about it" but if they really are a lying piece of shit that's not going to get you anywhere. I'm of the opinion that you should be secure enough, and honest enough in your relationship that a little snooping won't get your SO anywhere. AND if you're NOT, then you better be very good at covering your tracks or you get what you deserve.
24
And yet, BDF, there are gay men who are married to women having good sex lives for years and years and then later leave because they say they've been in the closet all along. If this was a scenario that she was making up in her head and it was impossible for a gay man to have a relationship with a woman, then yes, we could call everyone idiots for worrying about this. Loads of self-identified gay people have had straight relationships in the past before coming out. They were not gritting their teeth and bearing it, regardless if they'd rather be doing something else if they were really honest with themselves. It's just not true that gay men never enjoy sex with women, especially when they were younger or before they came out totally, etc.
And since it would do no good at all for me to name my own friends in this situation (including one who was recently left with a child by her recently-out gay husband), I will name famous people who we've all heard of: James Baldwin, Robert Mapplethorpe, Neil Patrick Harris- all gay men who, when they were young, enjoyed long term sexual relations with women before totally coming out. Sexual identity is complicated, and if this woman is a little worried that her dude is going to leave her for a man, it's not an idiotic concern. The perspective shift isn't that she's an idiot for not thinking of him as bi, but rather that any person in a relationship could leave anyone else for another partner. So I think what she might want to be concerned about is why he's got so much shame around this that he can't even talk about it. He's online looking to arrange anonymous hookups with men to explore his sexuality, he's too ashamed to acknowledge any interest, and he buys her gifts to shut her up about them. It's red flag behavior to me, and LW might want to hold off making any long-term plans with the guy until he sorts himself out. Hopefully he'll open up about it and they can sort it out together, or move along if that's what they want. Keep in mind that we are the ones calling him bi. He's not calling himself that. Until he starts doing that, the LW does in fact have reason to worry.

(And I was agreeing with you that people who believe bi people don't exist are idiots. I'm disagreeing that this is her concern here).

25
@23, At some point in life you learn not to ask questions you're not prepared to hear the answer to. That's why some relationships are DADT. If you've got to snoop because you think your SO is up to something, it's probably time for you to leave the relationship now since you're only one incident away from walking out the door anyway!
26
To clarify, I mean "reason to worry" about him cheating, not about him being gay. What I mean is, someone who is in denial about their sexuality (bi or gay) is more likely to be secretive about it because of the shame. Once he can bring those desires out in the open, they can figure out how to explore it together- or he can be honest about what he wants at this point in his life. You can't have honesty without self-awareness, but neither have jack to do with sexual desire which is going to be there regardless.
27
Nah, Juan Mas. There are some instances in which snooping really can clarify something, and it doesn't mean you are ready to leave otherwise. I don't think I'm 100% anti-snooping either.

In terms of trying to catch someone cheating, I don't know that snooping is really effective since it can only prove when someone IS cheating and not when they are NOT. If you are the sort that is always looking for some proof that your SO is up to something, then yea it's probable that you need to move on. But when people lie to you, it can be a weird spot to be in because you want to know if you are crazy or not. So yea, if you are in that position already, it's a good indication that you should move on, but it doesn't really answer the question.
28
Great column with some good questions, good answers by Dan, and thoughtful comments.
Nice!
29
re snooping: if you need to snoop to get straight answers about important things that affect your relationship then you have bigger problems than the thing you're snooping around trying to uncover. You can debate whether or not jump starting your car causes damage to the engine, but if that's the only way to get the thing started, you'll be wanting to get that fixed or get a new car.
30
To clarify: I think there are 2 types of snoopers. On the one hand, some people just don't respect others' boundaries and snoop through their stuff out of curiosity and that's fucked up. On the other, there are people who have nagging suspicions that aren't being resolved. In that case, if the direct communication route isn't working and friends agree that you aren't just being paranoid ... I don't know, it's a gray area. In this case, LW's SO was going down a dangerous road for both of them - sex with randoms from the internet without her knowledge. It's hard to leave a good relationship every time something feels a bit off and it's hard to imagine that things aren't better now that things are in the open. I think if it becomes a regular part of how a relationship works, then that's a big issue, but there are probably times when an otherwise good relationship can be saved with a little snooping. I will say that the snooper should in all instances make an ex-post confession so that the snoopee can decide whether or not they want to stay with a snooper.
31
LW1, SHOTDOWN: I wonder if your GF is simply too sexually inexperienced to respond in a GGG way to your suggestions to vary the menu. For instance, if she was only sexual with a super-vanilla ex-husband before you came along, she might have years of skill-building experience as the passive partner in missionary position, whereas your suggestion of other alternatives takes her out of her sexual comfort zone. Try guiding her there as if she were an 18-year-old sexual novice instead of a 42-year-old divorcee, and see if it makes a difference in her willingness to trust you in introducing her to new ways. Fichu @16 offered some good tips for doing this.

LW2, CAC: I completely agree with everything EmmaLiz has said in these comments. The biggest problem is not that your BF is bisexual, but that he appears to be in denial and unwilling to admit his true feelings to you - maybe not even to himself. Unlike TS @10, I have no problem with gifting jewelry (or other romantic tokens) as a tangible offering of contrition: "I know I fucked up big-time, I'm sorry, and this is my promise to do better in the future." But coupled with his refusal to discuss the Craigslist episode, I agree with Fichu (again) that this bracelet feels more like blackmail than a true gift. CAC, try again to get BF to open up about his history of sexual attraction to men, so you will both know what you're dealing with. If he still won't go there, leaving now will spare you a lot of heartache later.

LW3, NAWT: Dan's answer was spot-on and I have nothing to add, except to join the chorus regarding the misuse of the term "gaslighting." I suppose it's inevitable now that we have become so politically polarized as a nation, many people feel compelled to attack any information that doesn't confirm and reinforce their own strongly held beliefs. Hence we see the proliferation of derogatory labels like "fake news" and "gaslighting." Sad.

LibLib @30, good point on the distinction between good snooping and bad snooping. I like your car analogy @29, too.

32
@21 BiDanFan - "Emma @20: "There are still plenty of people who don't believe that bi people exist." Yes. They're called idiots."

Or, sometimes, just really sheltered? I was probably about as naive as CAC was when I was 20, in that I vaguely knew about homosexuality and transgender but had never heard of bisexual. Granted, that was about 15 years ago and Internet use wasn't quite as prevalent then, but it isn't difficult for me to believe that some kids are still that sheltered, especially when you factor in different cultural and societal standards, like where you live and what your parents are like. For example, I knew a trans person in their mid-20s around that time, and that person didn't even know the word "transgender" until they came out to me. It was a secret they had kept their entire lives because they honestly thought that they were the only person in the entire world who felt like they were born into the wrong body and felt ashamed of being "weird." They were astounded when I said "so you're trans?" and did an Internet search and discovered entire websites dedicated to being trans. My point is, being ignorant is not the same as being an idiot. CAC may have been told all her life that bi is not real (especially since she's young enough to have grown up on songs like "I Kissed a Girl" and when the whole bar-curious thing was a fad), and if so, it's going to take a while for her to wrap her head around the idea that being bisexual is totally possible. Only time will tell if she's going to come around to it eventually, or if she'll be one of those deniers who shut their eyes and ears to facts.

Re SHOTDOWN, I wonder if the girlfriend is just really old-fashioned, or married really young and has only been with one guy, and is afraid to try anything different? I can easily see a 42-year-old being raised with the idea that anything but missionary is disrespectful or demeaning to women, or being scared to admit that she's not really very sexually experienced at her age. Or even that she did try it with her ex, and maybe he was really bad at it and he's her only point of reference, so she simply concluded that she's not into those things.
34
Sorry, Jina @32. The internet exists now. If CAC is aware that Dan Savage exists, she can't not know that bisexuals exist.
35
Emma @24: Except that CAC isn't concerned that her boyfriend is cheating or that he will leave her for a man. She's concerned that he is secretly gay. Despite ALL the evidence pointing in great big neon letters to "bi," she's jumping to "gay."

Perhaps YOUR concern would be that the boyfriend was cheating, but that's not what CAC says.

And this guy is 21 and male. Being bisexual still carries an awful lot of stigma. It shouldn't, but it does. I was reluctant to come out as bi before I had the experience to confirm it. I'm not perplexed by Mr CAC's behaviour at all.
36
Final thought: Still Thinking @8 makes a very good point. What kind of 21-year-old buys his girlfriend a diamond bracelet?
The kind who comes from a very wealthy family.
Wealthy families are often very conservative families. The sort of families who would disown a guy for any sign of queerness.
I'm not surprised Mr CAC is so desperate to hide his sexual orientation.
37
@34 BiDanFan - the Internet existed 15 years ago too. And it wasn't that long ago that even Dan didn't really think bisexual people existed. Heck, it wasn't that long ago that Dan would publish letters from women who were married to men who came out as bi, then eventually confessed that they were actually gay and "Dan, what do I do?" So even if CAC has been reading Dan for years, unless she's been reading all of the columns and comments and Dan's posts on SLOG, it's quite feasible that she never really had to think about the existence or non-existence of bisexual people, and that it was just an abstract concept to her until it came crashing into reality in the form of her previously-assumed-to-be-straight boyfriend.

Anyways, I just don't think it's nice to call people idiots because they don't have the same life experience as you, and may not know the same things as you.
38
@9 DonnyKlicious disagree about SHOTDOWN but agree older person unlikely to change.

I know someone kinky with partner vanilla, opened relationship to outsource kink. They say vanilla sex w/ partner still better than kinky w/ other people. Their partner initially very against opening but they're together 20+yrs.

YMMV but if you're really in love, maybe worth trying?

Other LW CAC is definitely bi and most likely will cheat cheating. Not a cool to unilaterally and secretly open a relationship. DL bi dudes are higher risk for STIs than open bi dudes! And not all Fs want MMF 3-way.

@1 typesoofastohmy#1hooray. :)
39
CAC: how can you read SL and still think anal=gay? Many gay/bi dudes do not like receptive anal. Many straight guys do.
40
@38 myself, my comment on SHOTDOWN applies also to NAWT: someone can be adamant on monogamy at 18mos. in and might change later. Question is, do you both want to wait? Compatibility on decorating, finances, shared interests also important. Definitely wait on kids.
41
@BDF No I don't think that's fair. Why would she care if her boyfriend is gay unless she's concerned that he is going to leave her for a man? Why would she care if he's arranging hookups with guys online unless she's concerned he's going to cheat? I mean, being gay or bi isn't some abstraction.

@Jina, to be fair, I introduced the word "idiot" to the discussion. Not BDF, who used the word "moron". I disagree with BDF's entire stance in #11 because it seems to imply that if the LW's bf cheats, it's somehow the LW's fault for being close-minded rather than the bf's fault for being dishonest and lacking self-awareness. But I am sympathetic to BDF's frustration that some people do not believe that bi people exist, which is different than the point you are making - a person who is honestly naive about things. What I meant by "do not believe they exist" isn't that they hadn't heard of/experienced bi people, but rather that they being bi is A) a step on the way to being gay or B) a phase in youth before being straight. The fact that both A & B also exist does not mean bi people do not exist also, and yet there is a persistent disbelief about this as a real identity, and I can see how this would be very frustrating to someone who is bi. That said, I also think it's totally valid for this LW to be worried that her boyfriend is in fact gay or that he might arrange a secret hook up with a man to explore his bi side, especially considering that he seems to be in denial about it. And I don't think that this is the LW's fault, and I really don't understand the hostility towards the LW here. She didn't overreact to his arrangements on Craigslist. She isn't turned off by his fantasies or porn viewing. She bought a strap-on and pegged him. She's just worried she's investing her energy in a closet case, and since this isn't an unheard of situation, I think it's a valid concern. Unless he comes out as bi, she has reason to wonder.
42
@39 She's getting that from her bf's fantasies which include watching men do anal and arranging a hook up to have sex with men. Anal does not equal gay, naturally. But in this case, it is in fact tied up in his fantasies about sex with other men. I think it's just as possible, btw, that this guy is completely straight and just gets off on the fantasy aspect. I fantasize about being a dude all the time, I like having a strap on, and I like gay porn. There is no part of me that's trans or that feels like a dude in a woman's body. What we fantasize about doesn't have to be what we are, etc. But really I'm just invested in this topic because my husband is so not down for MMF which is really the only big NO in our relationship. So I'm here to endlessly discuss such situations. I'd love to be in the LW's shoes.

43
To fall in line with my general problem with reading comprehension, I have to admit that I just double-checked and the LW said the bf likes to look at pics of naked men, not watch them fuck, which I think I confused because of the on-going conversation about porn on the other thread combined with my own projections and day drinking induced dyslexia.
44
Still @ 8 and BDF @ 36 - It could be zircon. She does sound rather naive, so I'm not sure she could tell the difference, and the guy may be thinking "If she believes I'll never do this again, she'll believe they're diamonds". Assuming, of course, the guy is a POS and not just confused about his sexuality.

If they're real diamonds, from personal experience I'd say BDF hit the nail on the head.
45
Addendum to @44 - I can't tell the difference either, but not being naive, if a 20 year old gave me what he said was a diamond bracelet, I'd go to the jewellers the very next day to check.
46
Hunter @20, I thought he was pre-declared anti-snooping. Doesn't he usually tell the snoopers something along the lines of 'if you find something you don't want to know while snooping, it's your own damn fault?' That seems pretty anti-snooping to me.

BDF @ 36 and Ricardo @45, not all diamonds are actually super expensive. There is lots of stuff out there with diamond chips (read practically dust) that sparkles and is in fact the real deal, but isn't that expensive or impressive. There are also lab-made diamonds that aren't too expensive either. I assumed it was something like this and not a Tiffany tennis bracelet or something super expensive.
47
Ricardo @45, regardless of the kind of diamond bracelet, I agree that a trip to the jewelers to check on it would be appropriate.
48
@ 47 - Not that I care much about diamonds, but were they false, it would be a good indicator of how gullible my BF thinks I am. Which is always good to know.
49
Jina @ 37 - "it wasn't that long ago that even Dan didn't really think bisexual people existed"

Really? It seems to me that all he ever said was that a lot of gay people (including himself, and most of the gay people I knew when I was starting to come out) go through a phase where they say they are bi as they think this will be easier for the folks/school environment/whatever to accept. Then, after a year or two, they stop lying to themselves and to others and admit that they're gay.

There is nothing in that position that denies the existence of bisexuals. It's merely a comment on how difficult it is for many to come out as gay.
50
@17 I know, right? Dan doesn't need to add to the problem. When people misuse words, it literally makes my head explode.
51
EmmaLiz@41 - I was actually mostly reacting to BiDanFan's initial post @11 - "Come here so I can slap you repeatedly about the fucking face. Your question literally made me aaaarggghhh out loud. HAVE YOU NOT HEARD THE FREAKING 'B' WORD, YOU MORON?" It just seemed a bit harsh to say to someone who's young and probably has never knowingly met a bisexual person before. Again, I chose to comment because I don't think it's nice to call people names, whether it's "idiot," (which she also used; see the quote in my first post) or "moron," just because they don't know the same things that you do. Doesn't mean they're stupid, just that they're ignorant or didn't have the chance to find out. For example, my mother thought that "oral sex" meant "talking about sex" until 2004, and was shocked when she found out what it actually was. She's not stupid, she just never had any reason to think about it or be interested in it until something made her find out.

Ricardo @49 - I could be wrong about Dan believing in the existence of bisexual people, but I do distinctly remember he was very biphobic just a few years ago and people in these very comments section would criticize him for it. In his defense, he seems to have eased up a bit since then, or at least stopped pushing it. But I mostly remember this because it was the first time I had come across LGBT discrimination within the LGBT community, and it surprised me.

I did a bit of Googling, and found this opinion piece about Dan and biphobi… Here's a quote from it: "In the 2008 documentary, Bi the Way, Dan said “I meet someone who’s 19-years-old who tells me he’s bisexual and I’m like, ’Yeah, right, I doubt it. I tell them come back when you’re like 29 and we’ll see.'” That doesn't really sound like "a lot of gay people do this, but bisexuals do exist," it sounds more like "bisexuals exist, YEAH RIGHT they're just closet cases in denial." You even said it yourself - "they stop lying to themselves," emphasis on the word "lying." In other words people who claim to be bisexual are just lying to themselves, and it's just a matter of time before they come clean and pick a side. I'm not sure how that translates into not denying the existence of bisexuals?

I'm really not trying to vilify Dan or discredit him or anything, by the way. I really only brought it up to show that it's possible for someone could read Dan's column and still not understand bisexuality.
53
Jina @ 51 - "You even said it yourself - "they stop lying to themselves," emphasis on the word "lying." In other words people who claim to be bisexual are just lying to themselves, and it's just a matter of time before they come clean and pick a side."

That's such a big one, it must have been really hard to pull out of your ass.

Everything I said was about GAY PEOPLE who pretend that they're bi. I wasn't taking about bi people, who are bi. Can't you read? Or do you just twist everything so that it confirms your preformed opinions?
54
I am 31 (female, though, so it might be different) and still don't really know if I'm gay or bi. I knew I liked girls as a teenager but then dated a guy for a few years. That was a toxic relationship and also long-distance so we didn't do much sexually. I eventually did leave him for a woman, and have been with her for the past 9 years. Yet lately I've been feeling more attracted to men again. It's confusing. I did originally consider myself bi as a teenager, then gay, now I'm wondering if I am actually bi after all. I know it's a spectrum and not just "straight-bi-gay" but it can be pretty confusing to figure out. Some people might have thought I was just one of those "came out as bi as a stepping stone to gay" people but even if I don't know if I am.

My GF is also curious about men so we have talked about trying a threesome but actually taking it from fantasy to reality involves a lot of annoying hurdles (like I'm super paranoid about pregnancy) so I don't know whether or when it will happen.
55
Also, as an aside, I miss browsing Lustlab...
56
Coping with grandson day( how did I rear six of these people?). Why is it, when the
nappy( diaper) comes off a boy, there is a piss on the wooden floor within three minutes.. last time it was a shit, which he'd got to his mouth before I got to him. This is a young person's game.
57
CC @54, you and GF could advertise for a vasectomized man interested in an FMF and/or FFM threesome. I'm sure there are plenty of qualified, ready-and-willing gents waiting for your call - just be sure to get written proof. His medical provider should be able to provide him with surgery records and results of the post-procedure semen sample, showing a zero sperm count. Obviously your candidate of choice would still have to use condoms, but at least the pregnancy risk will be eliminated. A threesome may still be a huge leap from fantasy to reality for you and your GF, but this is a relatively easy way to guarantee that you can both have fun and explore your sexual boundaries, without having to worry about an unexpected and unwanted pregnancy.

PS for @55: I don't think there's anything in the Lesbian Rule Book that says a questioning lesbian-to-bi woman must refrain from watching straight porn. If you are a regular SL reader, you must already know that individual tastes in porn may or may not align with one's real-world sexual orientation and preferences. Watch what you like - it won't significantly influence your sex life, unless you were already yearning to go there.
58
@11 BiDanFan: Ah. Hunter's sarcastic humor is at work again.
Congrats, Hunter, on being Firdt!
59
@8 Still Thinking: I was wondering about that, too [re CAC] and BiDanFan @36 nailed it.
60
@44 Ricardo: I second your declaration of BDF's nailing it re CAC.
Any 21 year old who can afford a genuine diamond bracelet-----woof!

61
Re - CAC: "A couple months have passed, and things are great, but I still feel bothered. He loves my tits, ass, and pussy. He eats me out and initiates sex as often as I do. Just cuddling with me gets him hard. Which is why I'm even more perplexed."

He already likes your tits and your pussy. Maybe you should be happy that he likes dick too, because you are totally being one.

"He doesn't like to talk about the Craigslist incident and gets upset when I bring it up."

Gee, I wonder why that could POSSIBLY be? Probably because he perceives it as some combination of you a) continuing to hold his transgression over his head, and b) homophobicizing at him.

"Should I leave it alone?"

Yes, if only because you have run out of reasons to bring it up legitimately, and are now emotionally abusing him with it. "Are you _sure_ you're not secretly gay?" is a shitty, shitty thing to say to your bisexual boyfriend. Stop being an asshole, and let the past be the past.

"Is my boyfriend secretly gay?"

I think -- I hope -- that you mean "ex-boyfriend," and soon.
62
@15: "Nothing wrong with being gay (obviously). Perfectly okay for a straight woman not to want to be in a relationship with a gay man (if that's the case)."

Agreed, but there is something distinctly wrong with a woman worrying that a man who gets hard merely by cuddling with her might actually be secretly gay, and the problem there is a deficit in IQ. The guy clearly gets sexually aroused by her with zero problem. That's not what the word gay means. Her continuing to interrogate him is causing a rift in the relationship, and I hope next time she does it that he tells her to either get over it or get lost, because he's done being on probation.
63
@24: "Sexual identity is complicated, and if this woman is a little worried that her dude is going to leave her for a man, it's not an idiotic concern."

News flash: If he is totally straight, he might leave her for another woman. She has more direct evidence that he's straight (loves her tits, loves oral on her, gets hard just by cuddling) than that he's gay. So logically, she should be _much_ more worried that he's going to leave her for another woman than another man.
64
@56 LavaGirl: I'm not a parent, but it sounds like boys get into water sports at an early age. It isn't pissing, it's target practice with their own built-in squirt guns. I'll bet your daughters appreciate your helping out with your grandchildren, though. From what I've observed as an auntie, the fun really starts once they've graduated from crawling to being able to get up and run down hallways. Sending big hugs and VW beeps to you and your family.
65
@46 MizM [re @20, Hunter's comment): I thought Dan was pre-declared anti-snoop, too, and vaguely remember reading that ['if you find something you don't want to know while snooping it's your own damn fault'] from a previous Savage Love column.
Personally, I'm glad I avoid Twitter.
66
@65: Meaning that I don't feel that by not logging onto any online media Trumpzilla uses on an exhaustive daily basis that I'm missing anything particularly good.
67
@21 BiDanFan: "I am SO glad I'm not 20 anymore."
I am seconding you a lot lately--but your comments are so spot on!
68
Is it just me or does it seem ridiculously hard to be 20 anymore?
69
69th!
70
@30 - Two types of snooping, yes! I'm totally against just randomly rifling through your partner's stuff without cause. But if there are warning signs, trust, but verify. And for everyone who said if it's got to the point where you are suspicious, you've got other problems... probably. But maybe not.

@69 Griz. Congrats! Use it well!
71
@70: Thanks, Donny, I will. And I agree with you on snooping-----boy, it sure boils down to trust. If it isn't there, red flags should be glaring. There are few things worse in a relationship than an insanely jealous, possessive spouse / BF / GF who suspects EVERYONE in his / her mate's life and that the mate / BF/ GF is automatically sleeping around.
Big hugs, VW beeps and an "AACK-OOP!"
72
@12 Ghost of Sea Otter: Thank you for the clarification. Holy fuck. Then I believe I qualify among those who have been truly gaslighted more than once--by my sisters and ex-husband in particular.
73
Emma @41: "Why would she care if her boyfriend is gay unless she's concerned that he is going to leave her for a man?"

Because she's 20 and some 20-year-olds are still "EHRMAGHERD GHEY."
Because she's worried that strap-on sex will be all he wants.
Because she's worried their friends will find out.
Because she's an idiot -- I'm sorry, "sheltered" -- and doesn't know that sexual orientation is a spectrum.
I don't know, you'd have to ask her, rather than just assuming things based on your own experiences.

On the topic of which:
Do you think it's possible that your friends who left their spouses and came out as "gay" were actually bi all along, but chose to come out as "gay" instead of bi when they found same-sex partners, because of all the misunderstandings and negativity towards bi people that we've witnessed on this very thread?
I've known people who publicly identified as lesbian or gay, although they privately were attracted to both genders, because gays and lesbians have a community and bisexuals don't. When people say "I'm gay," most people generally understand and accept that. If you tell your wife you're leaving her for a man because you're gay, there's nothing she can really do but accept that it's nothing to do with her. If you tell your wife you've been bi all along and you're leaving her for a man because you don't love her anymore, that's much more hurtful, don't you think? Many people on the upper half of the Kinsey scale find it easier to round up to gay.

I've also known young people who experimented with the same sex, but then realised that they actually were straight. Unlikely in this case, but this does happen too.

Sexual orientation is complicated.

I'll echo your kudos to CAC for being GGG with the pegging. Many women wouldn't.

Or maybe CAC really wants him to be gay, because she has a fetish for gay men. That just occurred to me.
74
Ricardo @49: Good catch. In my 20+ years of reading Dan, he's always acknowledged bisexuals exist; what he's changed his mind about is whether we're appropriate dating material for gays or straights.

Jina @51: It was indeed Emma who first used the word "idiot" @20. As for my reaction @11, Emma read it perfectly:
"I am sympathetic to BDF's frustration that some people do not believe that bi people exist, which is different than the point you are making - a person who is honestly naive about things. What I meant by "do not believe they exist" isn't that they hadn't heard of/experienced bi people, but rather that they being bi is A) a step on the way to being gay or B) a phase in youth before being straight. The fact that both A & B also exist does not mean bi people do not exist also, and yet there is a persistent disbelief about this as a real identity, and I can see how this would be very frustrating to someone who is bi."

Avast @61/@62: THANK YOU.

Griz @69: Congrats! VW beeps right back atcha.
75
@64) thanks Grizelda. Just one daughter who has two biological children and three step children. She's a busy woman.
Happy Holidays..
76
BDF, you and I could speculate all day long about what we think people are, but they say they are gay and there is a long history of gay men having had relationships with women in the past, and with some enjoyment. This is not an unfamiliar territory.

And I'm sure there are some really conservative and repressed 20 year olds out there who are freaked out by The Gay, but they usually aren't the sort of 20 year old who buys strap ons and pegs her boyfriend happily- something she said she enjoyed and does not at all seemed worried about this being the only sort of sex he wants. And if you've spent any time around 20 year olds lately, you'll know that while there might still be some stigma about BEING gay, there just isn't so much OMG factor to other people being gay or bi, etc., like there was when we were 20. I'm not saying it's a cake walk, but since the letter talks about his trying to cheat, talks about enjoying the pegging, etc, I think it's really a stretch to claim she's abstractly concerned about the gayness rather than concerned that he's going to cheat with a man.

77
Emma @76: I'm not claiming anything. You're the one who's claiming she's concerned he's gay BECAUSE x, y, and z. I'm just claiming she's engaged in some seriously offensive bi erasure and deserves a bitch-slap on behalf of the bi community. (How can she not be aware of bisexuality when the e-mails she snooped through literally used the word bisexual?)
78
I would be more sympathetic if she literally said "I'm worried he'll cheat" or "I'm worried he'll leave me," but she never said that. She just said the equivalent of "hmm, this animal is furry and has pointy ears and says meow, it must be a dog!"
79
BDF, what I'm saying is that this is obvious from the post. She's actually writing about discovering that he tried to cheat with men and now being alarmed that he might be gay because if he's gay, that would end her relationship. Obviously she's not worried about him being gay as some abstraction.

I think your own emotions here might be getting in the way of this. You aren't normally the sort to want to bitchslap people (or if you are, you don't normally say it). The boyfriend himself said he thinks he might be bi. So she's not unaware that bi people exist- that conversation was a diversion in the comments, not in the letter. What she says is that she's worried he's actually gay. She is not denying the existence of bi people in this letter. She's worried her boyfriend is actually gay.

And I think your anger is misdirected because it is the BOYFRIEND who continues to deny that he is bi to his girlfriend and refuses to talk about his attempts to arrange sex with men online. It is the boyfriend who continues to claim that he is totally straight. And you are getting mad at the girlfriend for denying the possibility of his bisexuality.

The girlfriend meanwhile hears this, weighs it against her own real lived reality- that she knows her boyfriend who claims to be straight goes online and looks for sex with men- and she wonders, "holy shit, maybe he's gay and deeply in the closet?"

And your response is to get mad at her? Not the guy that's sneaking around seeking sex online and who refuses to discuss his sexuality and/or lies about it.
80
Let me try it another way. Let's say the scenario with him arranging the hookup online was the same. But when the LW confronted him about it, he said "yeah, I'm bi". Then the LW would either write into Dan saying "I just found out my boyfriend is bi- what do I do?" and Dan would probably give her good advice similar to the advice he gave her. Or the LW might say "I just found out my boyfriend is bi but I really believe he's gay" in which case you could talk about bitchslapping her and tell her about how bi people do exist, etc.

But that's not what happened. What happened is that she confronted the boyfriend and he continues to claim that he's entirely straight and that this is all just a fantasy. So naturally the girlfriend is confused. He won't talk about it at all. He buys her a bracelet to put the whole thing behind him. She's naturally confused. Given the situation and the boyfriends' denial, I think it's pretty normal for her to think "maybe he's gay and using me to deny it". Dan has done a good job in talking to her about bisexuality- that's the most likely scenario- and as they are both young, the boyfriend will probably come out eventually if the LW is supportive. Or maybe the boyfriend IS gay and will come out eventually that way. Or maybe he's honest and he is just a straight guy that gets off on fantasies of sex with men. But what didn't happen is that the LW did not write in denying the existence of gay people or intentionally misunderstanding or judging her boyfriend's sexuality. This is a projection. It is the BOYFRIEND that is denying all of this.
81
BDF, you're highly sensitive to examples of bisexual erasure, and I don't blame you since that is still a real thing in both the straight and gay communities. I get your frustration with this thread. But give the poor kid a break - she's only 20, she's already acting GGG with a bisexual BF, and I expect she'll develop a greater awareness of (and hopefully, appreciation for) the entire spectrum of human sexuality over the next decade. A bitch slap from you, on behalf of the entire bi community, is not likely to win over her heart and mind any faster. Peace!

And now, to change subjects entirely, I'm revisiting LW3 and musing about how many people do what he is doing here - trying to justify how a pretty good long-term relationship with a pretty good person is all we can expect really, even if we have some fundamental and unresolvable disagreements in the sex department. We as outsider observers can see the RR lights flashing and the gates coming down when NAWT says GF is a strict monogamist and he leans monogam-"ish," particularly since he is a kinkster interested in threesomes, and he already knows that she is strictly vanilla and proud of it. But NAWT, and so many others like him of all genders, still want to believe that love, respect, and compatible lifestyles (and the puppy!) should be enough to sustain their romantic partnership. Couples like this stay parked on the relationship railroad tracks, calmly watching the freight train approach, and yet they still act surprised when the train mows them down. Why do you think so many intelligent and otherwise savvy people fall into this trap?
82
EmmaLiz @79 @80 our posts crossed, sorry for the duplication of opinion.
83
EmmaLiz @20 "It's bizarre to me that this is what we are getting to- that everyone should just encourage everyone else to do anything they want or else we aren't being GGG. That's not how people work."

I'm on the other side of this. One should try to date compatible people and then encourage them to do what they want (if it doesn't harm someone else). Expecting people to refrain from doing what they want may work for a few months, but I don't think it's a good plan over decades. My experience is that people do what they want and one is better off being realistic (and supportive) about that, rather than asking them to refrain.
84
Griz @ 69 - Surely you meant "69ts"

BDF @ 78 - "She just said the equivalent of 'hmm, this animal is furry and has pointy ears and says meow, it must be a dog!'"

A perfect summation of the problem.
85
Erica, it's the "compatible people" part that's important there. If someone wants a monogamous relationship, they should not be encouraged to let their partner explore his sexuality with other people. Someone has to compromise for them to stay together- either the partner that wants monogamy or the partner that wants to explore. What bothers me is it seems like lately we are always taking the stance that the partner that wants monogamy is the one that has to compromise to be GGG, and I think that's shit. To the extent that in this scenario, the girlfriend who was lied to by her partner who sought sex behind her back and then continues to show that he's confused about his sexuality is actually being scolded here in the comment section for not being more supportive and for not encouraging her boyfriend to go out and fuck other people. I think this is backwards.

If someone wants a monogamous relationship, they should seek others who want a monogamous relationship. And people who don't want that shouldn't be expected to refrain- they should seek someone likeminded. In reality, these things are never so clear-cut and people change, so people are going to have to compromise. To what extent is up to the individuals involved, but I'm bothered by this trend that it ALWAYS has to be the monogamous partner. But I have a bigger beef with Dan's interpretation of stats to claim that everyone always cheats or that the existence of cheating means we should all embrace non monogamy, etc. so I'm sure I'm projecting here.

Back to the topic, if you are expecting someone to refrain from something, then you probably aren't compatible with them in the first place over long term. And on the other hand, I think people do need to accept the reality that they aren't going to get everything they want, and just because they desire some things that they don't get, doesn't mean the other person isn't being GGG. This doesn't give you a pass to cheat either. We all have to find the compromises that we can live with vs the things that will cause long term resentment and frustrations, and then we just accept that you don't get everything you want.
86
Emma: Try it as many ways as you want, but bi erasure does in fact anger me. You're correct, I don't often want to bitchslap people, unless they deserve it as thoroughly as this LW.
She can't claim she's unaware of bisexuals' existence, because her boyfriend says he thinks he might be one.
She's got all the evidence in front of her -- he talks about being either bi or straight (but not gay, although it's a queer man he's talking to), he looks at naked men, he flirts with guys on Craigslist, he is undeniably attracted to her FEMALE body -- and she throws out the last bit of evidence, why?
She doesn't mention being worried about his cheating or leaving her. She may in fact be concerned about those things, but why didn't she voice them? Why is it all just about GAY PANIC? And in fact, why would those concerns be dependent on her boyfriend being gay instead of the far stronger likelihood that he's bi? Bi men can and do cheat. Bi men can and do leave women for men.
Perhaps she's only a moron because she's young, but she's still a moron.

Being bisexual -- especially if you're a guy; especially if you're a young guy; especially if you're a young guy who's likely from a wealthy family, possibly a fraternity member or otherwise living a life that requires an outward appearance of straightness -- is not easy to come to terms with. This guy fears exposure. He has a lot to lose. No, I am not angry with him for not wanting to risk everything by coming out at his age.

It IS possible that he is gay and using her to hide, but if so, he deserves the Oscar for enthusiastic pussy eating. This is not a thing men can do while closing their eyes and picturing Ryan Gosling. It's far more likely that he doesn't want to be outed as bi because everyone will just round him up to gay, just like CAC -- who has directly experienced evidence to the contrary -- has done.

My advice stands. Whatever his orientation turns out to be, she's doing him and their relationship no favours by pushing him to come out as something he's not. She should state her support for his probable bisexuality, in hopes that he'll discuss it with her when he's ready.

If he's gonna leave, he's gonna leave, whether that's because he's gay, because he's bi and met the perfect man, or because he realises how thick she is. Either way, it's out of her hands.
87
@54 I'm sure you don't want to get on birth control just for an encounter. Condoms, when used correctly, are pretty good at preventing pregnancy. If it's an encounter with someone you don't know very well, then you were going to use a condom anyway right? In the unlikely event that the condom breaks, you can take Plan B. That's not something you want or should depend on since it's got nasty short term side effects, but there is no reason you should let the anxiety around pregnancy spoil your experience. Straight women have sex with men all the time without getting pregnant- it just requires a bit of planning. If you are able to find a man who's had a vasectomy as advised here, great! But you'd still want a condom.
88
@BDF

What troubles me in all your responses is that you are focusing entirely on the girlfriend's response to the guy without acknowledging that the guy continues to insist that he is straight.

You are making it sound like the girlfriend is the one judging him or not being supportive. All she's doing is trying to understand the contradiction between his behavior (what she read online) and what he tells her (his insistence that he's entirely straight and his words online were a lie that is part of a fantasy).

Then you are blaming the girlfriend for wondering if the guy might be confused. And you are blaming her confusion on a larger social issue with bi erasure rather than the fact that her boyfriend either lacks self-awareness or is lying to himself from shame/repression.

89
You have no idea if the girlfriend would've responded supportively if he came out to her as bi because that didn't happen. The boyfriend instead insisted that he is straight. So you can't retroactively get angry with her for not acknowledging or supporting his bisexuality when he claims he is not bisexual. That just puts her in the position of wondering if he's lying to her which is not abnormal considering that he has already lied to her.
90
She's 20. Her boyfriend's lying his ass off to her. It's perfectly appropriate for her to ask Dan his opinion about what the f is going on, and it's totally normal for someone like that to not use colloquial terms perfectly. Getting upset about that last is a waste of energy.

This terminology issue is not only a problem to the young people like the LW, it's a problem to health care professionals, who have coined the term MSM "men who have sex with men" because the men use "bi"/"gay"/"straight" so inconsistently that those terms are useless to the health care professionals.

What I'd say to the LW, that's important advice, is that it would be very unwise for her to assume that someone who's lying like this about his sexual orientation is going to reliably use condoms if/when he has casual sex with other men. I'd suggest she make her doctor/gynaecologist aware of the situation, use condoms with her partner, and have frequent STD checkups.
91
Old Crow @ 90
Not only the lying doesn’t necessarily correspond to the use of condoms or not, there may not even be a lie.
As some others here already pointed out he may not be fully aware of what he wants and how he defines himself.
Now add to all this what he might have grown up with, his relatively young age compared to us old crows, and a girlfriend who’s got her own ignorant issues, as once again others already pointed out, who intentionally or not shaming him, and not only you get a different picture but also one of the clumsiest sentence’s I’ve ever written.
92
EmmaLiz @85, I agree that people aren't going to get every little thing they want, exactly the way they want it. Maybe I like morning sex and my partner likes evening sex, so we compromise and do some of both.

But if one partner has a significant desire, like an ongoing desire for variety in sex partners, then their partner can't realistically just tell them to stifle that desire.

Just like if one partner no longer ever wants to have sex. Their partner can't realistically tell them they still *have* to have sex, even though their original arrangement involved regular amounts of sex.

Any big incompatibility like that has to be faced head on. I think some of what you're seeing as "the partner that wants monogamy is the one that has to compromise" is non-monogamous folks pushing back on the social norm that says all serious relationships must be monogamous. When one is trying to stand firm about a significant desire, and when society says that desire is perverted and wrong, one can certainly come across as combative and inflexible. It's unfortunate, but not surprising.

Of course, the monogamous partner doens't have to bend. He or she can always end the relationship. But he or she can't insist on keeping the relationship and keeping it monogamous.
93
@74 BiDanFan: Thanks and XO--beep beep! The sun is out and my beloved VW and I need to venture outside again. Vitamin D come and get us!
@75 LavaGirl: Thank you and big hugs and VW beeps your way, too.
Wow--your one daughter is indeed, a busy girl.
@84 Ricardo: Is "69ts" like Hunter's prized version of "first" ("firdt")?
Okay---"69ts" it is!
94
No wonder I kept flunking algebra. I'd think about my ex and wonder why.
Don't get me started on chemistry.
95
Erica, yes I agree. But I think that except in situations where there is some reason for the people to hold a relationship with those major incompatibilities together (like financial ties or young children or otherwise happy couples as companions) then the answer shouldn't be for either person to make such extreme compromises but rather for them to just break up and seek a more compatible relationship. I mean, look at these three letters. None of these people are going to be together in ten years and that's fine. I think where we get into trouble is when people try to make something so obviously incompatible work over the long term. If you don't want to be monogamous, don't get into a relationship with someone who values monogamy with the thoughts that it's going to last long term. Don't have kids and get yourself financially intertwined with that person. Because if you do that well knowing that you don't want to be monogamous forever, then you put that other person into the situation of having to choose to completely disrupt their life or of having to make major compromises on something that is important to them. And I think that's just shitty and selfish, and then people will tell the person they aren't being GGG.

Of course in real life, people change. But seriously look at the ages of these people writing these letters. Five of six of them are in their twenties. It is highly unlikely that any of them are fucking the only person who they will ever again fuck in their entire lives. I think some more honesty about that could prevent a lot of the confusion in the first place, and I think that's a better way to push back against these societal norms that monogamy is the best way to go rather than asking a person who really values it to compromise.
96
EmmaLiz: "It is highly unlikely that any of them are fucking the only person who they will ever again fuck in their entire lives. I think some more honesty about that [is] a better way to push back against these societal norms" -- agreed!

I do think that if one is looking for till-death-do-us-part monogamy, one should be explicit before entangling lives. One could establish a pre-nup, for instance, which is triggered by infidelity.

But if the early years together involved threesomes, swinger parties, or an occasional hall-pass, and now one person feels that they should put all that behind them as responsible parents, then that monogamous person should admit to having changed the rules in the middle of the game.
97
@11 CAC is just the surface, dear. When I was 21 my girlfriend thought I was gay because it took me longer than minutes to cum.
98
@16: "He says that she wants him to make the moves but then doesn't want to try anything he brings up. I wondered if he was saying that the sex was great when they got started a year ago and then dwindled into a missionary rut. Now I'm wondering if SHOTDOWN's girlfriend has rape fantasies that she's afraid to act on"

Wow, that's... a leap in logic :/
99
@94: ka-BOOM!
100
HUndt!
101
Has NAWT ever been monogamish in practice? What guy doesn't want threesomes? Unless he's actually lived out this sexuality he's so convinced is his, to me it sounds like someone is worrying about the sex he might miss out on rather than giving up the kind of sex he had been having. And I know everybody says the sex is the best it's going to be at the start, but it doesn't have to be. In my own experience, the best sex can (did) come 15 years into a relationship. If he's truly giving up something he can't live without, by all means, end it. If you're counting on your 30's being nonstop threesomes if not for your vanilla, super-compatible girlfriend depriving you even though your 20's were weirdly devoid of threesomes, stop being an idiot.
102
Emma @88: I acknowledge that the guy continues to insist that he is straight, and offer some theories why, in my posts @35, @36 and @86. I'm done with this topic now.

Griz @95: Ba-dum *tish*

Sportlandia @97: Smh. Yes, I've heard SO MANY of these -- remember a few weeks back when a guy must be gay because he accidentally went home with a trans woman and decided to roll with it? Bitch slaps all round.

Undead @98: I know, right? I'm wondering whether she likes Marmite. Or whether her hair is brown or blond. We can all wonder whatever we like.

Centrists @101: Oh yes, there are straight guys who don't want threesomes. Ironically, they seem to end up with women who do.
103
@102 - but you'd agree that most guys want threesomes? And that the ratio of desire to realization (for straight men defining threesomes as two girls, one guy) is maybe 100,000-to-1? Maybe higher?
104
Centrist @103: "Most" straight guys have the threesome fantasy? Probably. Percentage? How on earth should I know? Let me google that for you:
http://nypost.com/2016/03/23/how-many-pe…
Far more than 1 in 100,000, it would seem. Though the article doesn't specify what sort of mixed-gender threesome.
As 82 percent of men and only 31 percent of women want to have a threesome, and 24 percent of men but only 8 percent of women say they have had a threesome, those figures, if accurate, would point to a lot of MFM threesomes with a small subset of adventurous women.

Also, there's a difference between having a threesome fantasy and actually being willing to go through with it. Believe it or not, lots of guys go all "you'll leave me for a woman!!11!" when they find themselves actually dating a bi woman.

And yes, the whole "you're bi? MY THREESOME FANTASY HAS JUST COME TRUE!" is, indeed, a tedious cliché. I avoid this by trying to not date straight men.
106
BDF @104 82% of men want to have a threesome? I see in the NY Post article that the people in the survey were 18-24 year olds, so really young. I wonder what the results would be for older people. FWIW, I'm 53 and I'd rather chew tinfoil than be in any kind of threesome.


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