RAGING apparently gave her first blow job at 12 (2017 minus 56 years old=1961, gave her first in 1973) which may explain the rage. Hard to imagine that was really, truly consensual.

I was raised in a very conservative environment and I have a hard time wrapping my brain around the idea of a man marrying a woman he can't dirty talk /text with. It's 2017. Is there something else we're not being told?

@ 2 - A lot of straight men are still stuck with that madonna/whore dichotomy. Some conflicted gay men, too.

RAGING ~ nothing unusual about seeing a guy on the internet coming 12 times in five minutes. I once saw a talking dog. And a guy made an elephant disappear into thin air! Anything is possible if you believe it hard enough and don't listen to all those negative people with their "facts", "science" and fake news!

@1 - I'm guessing you weren't around in 1973., in the midst of the sexual dark age.

What if DOC turns out to be a switch?
A Russian interfering with an American election, I mean, erection - hah! How long have you been waiting for a letter to give you that, um, opening, Dan?

@5 fubar: Oh, please--don't remind me. I was around (although I was only 9 back then).
I swear, only three good things came out of 1973: my beloved [future] car, the George Roy Hill classic film, The Sting, with Paul Newman and Robert Redford, and Pink Floyd's album, The Dark Side of the Moon. I'm still trying to forget about the Charlie Mansonesque, state hopping psychopathic nightmare of Ted Bundy.

Dan: I still haven't received any feedback on my request for a U.S flag ITMFA lapel and size XL ITMFA tshirt (for some reason, the online store won't accept my debit card (charge cards only?). Please email me when you can--and I want to send a U.S. flag lapel to my congress member, too.

@3 Ricardo (re your response to @2 DC270): Bingo---you just nailed my #1 reason for identifying as asexual: the ongoing societal madonna / whore dichotomy. For us women, such an unfair double standard really does suck---in more ways than one.

@7 (again): PLEASE, Dan, email me so I can place an order! As a U.S. veteran I would wear an ITMFA flag lapel proudly.

Dan is such an ASSHOLE when it comes to sexism towards ciswomen by cismen. Dan, LISTEN and believe her when she tells you straight men do not reciprocate & are encouraged to demean the women that blow them. Misogyny is Errywhere - especially in porn.

DOC: Just don't date people you meet through work and you should be fine.

RAGING: Is your complaint that men in your real life are degrading you oral-sexually, or is it just a porn thing? If the latter, your answer is simple: watch different porn. If the former, it's also simple: DTMFA. I've happily been sucking the cocks of gracious, grateful, reciprocating recipients since, well, not the 70s, but long enough to know that straight men do not "always" "take a dip in the degradation pool." To tie into yesterday's SLLOTD, perhaps you should date some bi men?

IMO, men who take a dip in the degradation pool are men with issues... that are not yours to resolve. Avoid those men at all costs. Hard to know and do before the first BJ, of course, but after that, you just say "Well, with the way you treat me when I give you a blow job, you won't get another one of them anytime soon!" as you merrily go/show them out the door.

Griz @ 8 - And the weird thing is - why the fuck would those men want to make a long-term commitment to someone who's the exact opposite of what they need sexually?!? That's the most obvious recipe for a disaster.

The 'degradation pool' is pretty distressing. I get the feeling that cocksucking porn is more about the audience's resentment toward women are AREN'T sucking their cocks than about the possible fun and delight with those who do.

I'm so old, the first time I saw a woman with a cock in her mouth, it was mine. And I adored her. That's a whole different universe from all the slapping-choking-mascara-running spiteful crap that's being churned out.

DOC, wow, gay in 2017 and in med school without a relationship yet (so age 22+), not even a short term boyfriend or two?

That religious upbringing must have been some tough sh*t for you. Sorry for that and good luck getting over it, glad you're in therapy but sounds like it's not helping that quickly?

A lot of people are afraid of sharing with their therapist but it's their own concerns and that hampers effective therapy to hold back.

Sound out your therapist on kinks -- if she or he is sex negative, get a new therapist!! But if sex positive, OPEN UP already. And if your therapist attitudes are unknown, be careful as you're still a student! A few therapists are inappropriate about mandated reporting to ethics boards "suspected" violations of things like the welfare of others and if you have child patients and talk about you getting turned on as a child patient, the therapist may incorrectly jump to conclusions you're getting off on seeing your child patients!

Safest to go with an AASECT certified sex+ therapist who understands kink. If you're in school and getting free counseling, you're likely getting a trainee therapist who is pretty green about this kind of thing. Just like as a trainee DOC you are still learning!

Plus, Dan forgot his usual "outsource that" option. You might find a boyfriend who is vanilla but cool with you outsourcing the kink. If an open relationship model fits for you, that's an option too.

Religious upbringings may make people think monogamy is the only model out there for a happy LTR but there are others.

DOC's letter read extra-fakey to me.

a Russian interfering with an American erection

I actually LOL'd.

Polyphemus @13: Your post has made me really glad I've never had an interest in porn.

DOC- I also used to think that my very own kinks/inclinations are the most shameful things on earth. Apparently it’s quite common.
I’m delightfully indulging nowadays.

Is RAGING really 56 yo? Some of her observations like, “y'all gay men can enjoy blowjobs without that dip in the degradation pool straight men always take,” as well as bewilderment regarding the “reality” of porn videos make me wonder.
It reads as a yet another cheerfully ignorant Dr. Helen’s post.

PHOTO- you’re having a no-contact fantasy swap with someone and you’re worried about their dating/marital status.
While one may applaud your way beyond the call of duty ethics, I wonder if there are other factors involved.

As for your safety- try and limit your future conversations to a play-only email account and skype/photos that don’t show your face. A phone conversation is only possible when they give you their number and accept a blocked number call.
Today’s daily letter deals with some safety issues and may be of interest to you.

I get what she's trying to say re: the degradation pool. I haven't the slightest idea if her projections about the gay attitude is correct but portrayal in porn (at least mainstream) yes as @13 says. There is a difference between that (and the resentment of the audience it's made for, as mentioned above) and the way it's portrayed in gay porn generally (a bigger range). My own experience is that as the dudes I dated got older, they became more mature and less likely to think it's some big deal for which the woman should be shamed even though they want it but in retrospect, maybe I was the one that grew up and therefore dated different men? In any case, all those comments above seem to have the key here, the madonna/whore thing combined with resentment that they aren't getting blow jobs leads to this weird attitude among some straight men (which in my experience afflicts younger men mostly) towards blow jobs that I'd speculate doesn't exist among gay men in the same way because there is reciprocation- the dude you're sucking has probably been in your position so the attitude is different. The obvious solution is straight guys should start giving blow jobs more often, but so far this idea is unpopular and therefore I'll go with the next most obvious solution which is to stop dating assholes.

And I don't know if she really was 12 when she started having sex, but that's absolutely not unheard of nor does it mean it's nonconsensual (with other kids). But I wouldn't jump to that conclusion anyway b/c I think what she meant was the general attitude you hear from your peers about sex and different sex acts which, yes certainly is in full force by the time you are in middle school. It's basically all anyone talks about and some of us never outgrow it.

EL- It’s her generalizations, assumptions and rich prose that ticked me.
Did a 56 yo just discover porn? Like many others, including het males, she finds some of it to be degrading and a turn off, yet can’t figure out how to find non-degrading oral sex clips.
She obviously did find a clip of a masturbating “fearless young woman,” which led her to be very impressed with “this new generation of women.”
And then there’s a total pc bs assumption about gay men lifestyle and porn, which qualifies them to “talk some sense into stupid straight boys!”

CMD @18: I too would worry about an ongoing cyber-sexual relationship that someone was hiding from a monogamous partner. If discovered -- which, Dan is right, is probably more a "when" than an "if" -- would the fiancée believe that no physical contact had ever taken place? PHOTO is not a professional cam girl, and it's reasonable to think she may have developed some feelings for this guy.

Emma @19: Perhaps some of these "degradation" men might consider that they're not getting blowjobs because they're making it a horrible experience for their partners? Chicken, meet egg, and all that.
I suspect Dan may have changed the age by a few years in order to mask the LW's identity, which often happens. Though it seems unnecessary in this case, as no third parties were being discussed.

The theory that gay/bi men get that the degrading blowjobs shown in porn aren't something to try at home because they've been on both ends makes sense. (Though I've witnessed one bi man gleefully enjoying another bi man aggressively face-fucking him; it's a submissive thing.) It saddens me to think that the generation of women below me are having the fun experience of sucking cock ruined by guys who think willingness to do so should be punished, not appreciated.

Just to clarify, I'm not saying it's not something gay guys wouldn't try at home. I'm sure plenty are totally into that. Just that it's far more likely that each person has been on the other side of the experience as well, and there is less power differential in the real world afterwards, and so (from the outside perspective as a woman) it seems like it would be a lot easier to play at sexual domination or degradation and then afterwards feel more like "that was fun, just playing".

I always agree with the advice here that people shouldn't date assholes and that there is other porn to look at and that what we watch in porn / play at in sex doesn't necessarily have any effect on our real life treatment of other humans or our real life world view. BUT (of course) it does sort of irritate me when Dan or others brush aside the fact that there is in fact misogyny and power play in porn that does exist out in the real world. I agree with CMD that this LW's writing style is odd. My own opinion was that she's trying to be funny and lighthearted ("cool") about something that actually bothers her. But I think what she's trying to ask is- is the gay sexual world really more free from the sorts of power imbalances and inequalities that really do exist in the hetero sexual world, generally speaking? And the fact that she references porn to ask this question is probably because gay porn is pretty popular with straight women, and one thing I've come to think after hanging out here on SL is that part of the reason for that is because it's pretty awesome, as a woman, to see hot guys getting off without having the real world of misogyny enter the picture at all. (I used to think I just liked it because I like guys, so two is better, and that's probably true also.) So my guess is that's where her question is coming from. It's a variation on a question we've seen a lot before. And of course there is a difference between a straight woman's fantasies about gay guys and the reality, and yes, it's a bit weird that she would get them mixed up enough to say that gay guys should start telling straight guys to stop being assholes about blow jobs, especially when the more obvious response is to date people who aren't assholes and watch better porn. While I agree, it does handwave the bigger issue.

Another point of view... I've heard that when guys watch porn, they imagine they are the guy in the scene, fucking or being fucked by the girl. (In straight porn, here). First off, I wonder if this is true. Second, I wonder if it's something that women do too. I tend to want to watch a couple getting off, and that's why I like amateur porn. There's no way I could imagine being the woman in most mainstream porn because, well, gross, but even in amateur porn which I find really hot a lot of the time, I don't ever imagine that it's happening to me. I just think it's hot to watch them. Anyway, if this is true generally- if guys usually imagine themselves in the scene but women usually just find the couple's experience hot in a disconnected way, then it would explain why guys are always going to want more porn than women (hence the market) as well as why lots of straight women like gay porn (we like guys, there are two of them) etc. To me, this makes more sense than a simplistic "porn is too degrading of women" which is true of most easily accessible pro porn but not all porn, obviously. It doesn't really answer the LW's letter but it might shed some light on how she came to her perceptions in the first place?

LW3, PHOTO - I have long held the philosophy that a single person dating a married or otherwise committed individual is not morally liable for any potential damage to the pre-existing relationship. That is entirely your sex buddy's responsibility, not yours. In fact, how they manage their sex life and whether or not he ever tells his fiancee is none of your business, unless you are actively trying to break them up - which does not appear to be the case here. If what you have with him is good, just let it be and let him solve his own problems. He'll either tell her, or he won't...but you can relax and enjoy your kinky phone sex interludes with a clear conscience.

About the power differential in gay porn (to all who wonder): in my opinion, what is shown in gay porn represents the average way more than the extremes, whereas it could be the opposite in straight porn. By that I mean that even when a D/s dynamic is shown in gay porn, it's pretty tame and looks totally unrealistic (to me).

A lot (not a majority) of strict tops enjoy ramming their dick down your throat or up your ass with no consideration whatsoever as to whether you, the receptive partner, enjoy this or not. In fact, sometimes your not enjoying it is a substantial part of their own enjoyment; I guess they feel more like "real men" this way.

Which is why I only really like sex with versatile guys now: even when they play rough, they know how far to go to make it enjoyable for all.

EL @ 23
I think many men like to view themselves as “that guy in the video,” at least in some situations, hence all those POV shots on bj’s and the like.

As for het women enjoying gay male porn, I wonder if it’s the equivalent of straight men enjoying lesbian footage.
The lesbian phenomenon has been going on for some time and there are many variations on this action, much of it dismissed as unrealistic and catering for certain viewers.
It is often depicting very fit women, and their gentle, loving and equal relationships.

I’m not that familiar with gay action and porn to have an informed opinion about that matter, but we had some previous discussions in here about gay porn catering for women and the possible adjustments made to attract and retain those viewers.
Ricardo @ 25 touched on it, and I think Dr. Helen’s (aka LW2) views on gay life may also be at least partially based on porn illusions.

EmmaLiz@23 ~ "I've heard that when guys watch porn, they imagine they are the guy in the scene, fucking or being fucked by the girl. (In straight porn, here). First off, I wonder if this is true" Speaking for myself, I say it's a mix...I definitely can imagine myself in the scene, but also just enjoy watching the action...mostly the woman, so if she looks like she's having a good time and a genuine orgasm(s) (which sadly is infrequent in porn, probably due to repetitive takes and breaks in filming) then it's better for me.

Cap@24 ~ "...I have long held the philosophy that a single person dating a married or otherwise committed individual is not morally liable for any potential damage to the pre-existing relationship...." I think that you have a moral obligation to your fellow (man) not to fuck them over whether you are in a relationship or not. You don't get a free pass for sticking a knife in someone's eye just because they're a stranger.

Seriously Dan, re PHOTO? You encouraging this woman to continue because it's cheating lite? Bit like being a bit pregnant. And by encouraging her you're encouraging straight men here, who read your words, to lie to a woman who is going to devote her life energies trying to make a marriage succeed.
LW, my take on this, drop the guy. There is no cheating lite, just a new made up term by Dan to help his straight brothers navigate those rough seas of dealing with women. While you have his attention still, suggest to him not to marry a woman who doesn't accept all of who he is, it's ripping both of them off. And life is short, no time to waste starting marriages on lies.

Not to be paranoid on behalf of LW#1 (DOC) but he might consider, if it's feasible, to consult an attorney and even have an attorney create a non-disclosure contract to be shared with his future partner(s).

I realize that it isn't likely to happen but a less than amicable breakup could result in kink exposure, blackmail, and/or worse (e.g., malpractice suits alleging he was performing not-medically necessary procedures in order to obtain sexual gratification). Malpractice insurance is exhorbitantly expensive.

DonnyK @27, who's to say that she is "sticking a knife in the eye" of Fiancee by continuing her phone-sex affair? Sex-Buddy has told LW that he's reluctant to talk to Fiancee about his kink, but maybe he tells her that because he likes to play the two of them off each other and see how LW reacts. Maybe Fiancee is already aware and completely GGG about his phone affair, or maybe they are a non-monogamous couple and he's free to see or talk to anyone he wants as long as he's there for her when she needs him. Maybe Fiancee is a fictional character, created to heighten the drama of the phone affair with LW. Or maybe, per Ricardo @3, Buddy has a Madonna/whore thing going on with women, so he needs to keep Fiancee lily-pure and removed from all of his Bad Thoughts and Deeds in order to marry her. My point is, it's all conjecture - and it's none of LW's business. She doesn't know squat about Buddy's primary relationship other than what he tells her, they are not intimate except for on the phone when it is convenient for both, and it's not up to her to try to outguess him or manage any relationship other than the one she has with him directly.

Lava @ 28
Sorry, but your argument could have been much more credible if you kept it to ethics only. Inserting genitalia war and in such an entwined manner doesn’t really help.

I had some similar to LW’s online-only kink and pics sharing “relationships” in the past. Some chose to disclose their marital status. Boundaries were respected and as far as I know spouses never found out.
In at least one case it actually helped someone’s marriage, as I gave them the opportunity to vent and also came up with some practical suggestions.

@12, Ricardo, the reason is because the madonna is the mother, and the whore.. well, she won't be happy to clean that bathroom floor and have his dinner ready by six.
1973 was a great year, the 70s were great. Australia voted a Bernie Saunders type into office, Gough Whitlam ( a man who loved his equally intelligent wife), and he ripped the country apart, off the straight capitalist tracks and placed us on the socialism one. Subsequent govts have pared his reforms way back. Free health, free uni.. pension for single mothers, etc etc. and feminism, anti psychiatry, black rights, gay rights were all bubbling up in a profusion of ideas. Internet porn didn't exist so the boys hadn't learnt all those moves designed by greedy little movie making men who hate women.

@31CMD, You think Dan would have given the same response if the genders were reversed? He'd tell a woman that cheating lite with her to be husband, with a cam guy, is not that bad an option. After all, no man is being touched here.
There is another gender war going on, especially in your country. Creeping into ours. You not notice what government officials are up to around women's autonomy, freedom, life choices? I'm on alert, sorry if it offends you.

Correction, Dan would tell the cam guy it wasn't that bad an option. Yeah, it's fine, just cheating lite. Dan's response would have been different because a new husband's response to such deceit once he finds out, is going to show how lite this cheating is in a very different way to how a woman would, when she found out. imo.

Cap @ 24, 30 - Yes. All of it may be pure conjecture. So I wholeheartedly agree with your statement expressed @ 24 : "a single person dating a married or otherwise committed individual is not morally liable for any potential damage to the pre-existing relationship."

Lava @ 33
I'm well aware of politics in general and gender politics in particular in the US and beyond. I don’t like what I see nowadays, yet don’t think Dan’s answer is contributing to the negative present environment.

As for your question, “You think Dan would have given the same response if the genders were reversed?”
The answer is yes, genders doesn’t make much of a difference here as far as I’m concerned. In fact, despite the likelihood we don’t even know for sure that LW is indeed a cis woman.

You guys serious? Not morally responsible.
Now that she has the information he is engaged, if she continues the sexual relationship then she is involved in a cheating scenario.

We don't just live here CMD, on Savage Love Island. And being aware of the frightening developments women everywhere are being subjected to, is not the same as experiencing them. Laws coming in where a woman has to ask permission from the father, who could have been a rapist, before she can have an abortion.
I'm assuming the sex of the LW by their choice of words and the tone of Dan's response. You think the LW is a man , and the husband to be is secretly acting out a bi kink?

Lava @ 38
I thought I indicated that I also think that LW is likely to be a woman. Regardless, I’m not sure it is relevant to the issue at hand, and for all we know could have been changed in the editing process.

Stating this does not diminish mine nor Dan’s awareness of “the frightening developments women everywhere are being subjected to,” regardless of where we reside and what stuff we were born with.

Emma @23: Funny, I always thought it was the exact opposite, that guys were just happy and turned-on to watch sex happening, but girls needed to empathize with the girl. I also figured this was why girls (frequently) like porn less--because the girls onscreen are so hard to believe (right, she's moaning like that after three seconds).

Clearly I project how I feel onto all women everywhere.
I should probably stop doing that. >.<

(Oh and before everyone jumps in, yes, I know there's better porn out there, I'm speaking of the generic crappy stuff.)

Lava @multiple, don't you think it's rather infantilizing (and presumptuous!) for the single woman phone-sex buddy to take over the responsibility of managing her engaged lover's relationship with his fiancee? Especially when, in all other regards, it is an ideal match that she would prefer to keep alive. Why should she have to sacrifice her own satisfying sex life for a woman she doesn't know, does not owe any obligations, and who may not even exist? But no, you want her to say "You're doing it wrong and you're thinking with your other brain, so you leave me no choice but to break up with you and keep you from making a lifetime mistake." He is a grown man and he's allowed to make his own choices for his own life, even if LW would consider them immoral choices if she were in his shoes.

I take it that some of your passion and anger on this topic comes from having been placed in the fiancee's position by your straying ex-husband, and I'm sorry you experienced that pain. But do you think it would have changed anything if your hubby's lover(s) had turned him down? He would have just moved on to the next woman. HE caused your pain, not the women he slept with.

I am in a long-term marriage myself, and if I do anything to break the compact I have with my spouse, THAT'S ALL ON ME, and I would solely have to own and atone for my poor decision-making and the hurt feelings that I caused. I certainly wouldn't be saying that my outside lover "made me do it" or "should have known better than to get involved with me." Because why? Because I am an adult, and I am the one with the committed and trusting relationship.

In other news, am I the only one who saw Ruby Rose in the latest John Wick movie, and thought, oh yeah, there’s Bi? Totally picturing her in that black suit.

Modern porn is gross and hateful. It seems designed to kill a boner. Like it's for angry babymen who spend too much time on YouTube raging about feminism.

41, Capricornius, I agree with your reasoning, but still I think there are other ways of looking at the issue. This is an extreme example, but does a person who sells drugs that they know have a high potential for killing users have no responsibility for the destructive consequences of their actions?

You state: " Why should she have to sacrifice her own satisfying sex life for a woman she doesn't know, does not owe any obligations, and who may not even exist? "-
I would answer, because we are morally obligated to consider the effects our actions have on other people, even people we do not know.

Gonzo @44, for the drug-pusher example you offer, I agree that the pusher is fully responsible for all of the destructive consequences of their actions, and in fact can rationally predict that their actions are likely to destroy a large number of their customers. So, morally doubleplusungood. But in the case of sexual affairs, I think it's unfair, presumptuous, and just plain wrong for an unattached person to play Mommy or Daddy to their lover and assume the adult responsibility for protecting the lover's unknown partner from broken trust and hurt feelings. Especially when (as is usually the case) the single person has NO IDEA of what actually is going on in the primary relationship. In this particular case, LW may decide that she has to do the Noble Thing and break up with Sex-Buddy because she wants to save his future marriage, when in fact there was never actually a fiancee, or the fiancee may already have learned about the phone-sex thing and is OK with it. She can only guess at Fiancee's feelings through what Buddy chooses to tell her, and he has ample reason to lie about it!

If you are talking about a single person actively working to destroy an existing relationship so they no longer have to share their lover with an unknown Primary, that's a whole different kettle of fish, morality-wise. But LW is very happy with the status quo, her lover also appears very happy with the status quo, and it's up to HIM to make sure that the woman he intends to marry knows who he is and what he does, sexually and otherwise. And if he doesn't, for whatever reason, I think that is a reflection on his own moral character - not at all on PHOTO.

@12 Ricardo: My one toxic marriage was indeed, a recipe for disaster. I never should have gotten married way back when, period. My head wasn't on straight at the time. One of my dumbest moves in my 20s. I shudder to think of my ex in the role of anyone's father (he had serious rage issues, and adding alcohol only made everything worse---like pairing nitro glycerin and a lit match). Thankfully, that's not my problem anymore.

Thanks Ciods, Ricardo and CMD- you've given me something to think about and I wish I had time to express it here, maybe later!

Lava, I totally get what you are saying and it's important, but I don't think that's what's happening here. Dan's pretty consistent in these situations, and I generally disagree with his cheating-lax advice, but it's rarely gender-based. If anything, it think he has a bias towards sometimes not thinking about how these decisions affect the woman more than the man (in terms of how withholding knowledge of cheating can affect the woman's decision making about when to get married, have kids, both situations that statistically have a greater impact on the woman's life), etc. So if the LW were the man writing in, I'd see what you are saying, but it's not- it's the man's sexting female companion. So then we enter into the weird world of having to answer her questions (because she is seeking advice) not the ethics of the man or his vanilla and kept-in-the-dark finance. So because of that, I don't think your criticism is valid. I also agree that Cap's opinion that it's fine to be the "other" is unethical- you are still contributing to someone else's deceit, but I get that it's far worse to be the person actually betraying someone else's trust. There's only so much we can involve ourselves in casual relationships. Which brings us back to the LW, my first impression is that she's way too interested in her sexting partner's relationship- it's really none of her business and totally irrelevant to her own life who/why he marries and how well/poorly that works out. Weird that she's interested enough to write a letter at all. But if we are to speculate on the man's "cheating"- I don't see how him sexting with someone is cheating. Maybe I'm missing out on something here, but consensual exchange of dirty messages and pictures is not cheating is it? I mean, how is this any different from any other fantasy? My own hard line against cheating is that it violates another person's ability to control their own bodies and make decisions for their own lives with full knowledge- it's a type of removal of consent to withhold information that affects someone else's life and health. Likewise, there is a violation of trust if you are carrying on an affair which is selfish and cruel in a way that a hookup (though still a violation of consent) maybe wouldn't be- to pretend to be exclusive to someone while carrying on with someone else over a long time is an ongoing deceit and cruelty. But to sext with someone within the understanding that it's a fully online encounter that will never cross into real life (which is how I read the LW- am I misunderstanding again?) how is that a violation of anything? You are not violating trust, bodily autonomy, decision making nor consent. It's fantasy, and I think people are entitled to private fantasies that don't hurt anyone else in any way. And yes, the LW might be right to point out that this dude could possibly be happier marrying someone who is less vanilla, but the obvious thing here is that the LW actually has no fucking idea what this guy's relationship is like because they've never met and she just knows what he tells her which is why it's so weird that she's worrying herself over it in the first place. And as feminist as I am and as freaked out as I am about what's happening to women right now, I agree with CMD that this issue doesn't seem gendered, nor does Dan's advice.

Cap @30: Sorry but all of your hypothetical "what ifs" seem to point to one conclusion: "... then he's an asshole." I'm sure PHOTO can find a queue of men to have kinky phone sex with, men who aren't either messing her or some other woman about. If she's uncomfortable continuing the relationship, she should end it.

Cap @41: PHOTO should end it not for some unmet woman's sake, but for her own sake. What if this woman discovers the "affair" and decides to make PHOTO's life hell? She doesn't need that kind of drama. Bowing out isn't "managing her engaged lover's relationship," it's removing herself from it. He is indeed free to make his own mistakes, but she's not obligated to let him make them with her.

The more time I spend on here, and the older I get, the more nonstandard relationships structures I become familiar with. I now know lots of people who outsource some aspects of their sexual relationship, for instance. It may not be common but ten years ago I had never heard of it at all. I still feel a bit wary about giving the green light to be an "other," because I still suspect nonethical nonmonogamy is the majority of nonmonogamy, but more and more I think I have no idea what the other relationship is like, and whether or not this flirtation/sexting/whatever is in fact totally okay or encouraged. As Cap says, the one who makes it ethical or not is the one in the relationship. It's still tricky, but it has clarified for me (at the very least) those situations in which you "find out" about some cheating and consider telling (like a letter we had recently from one member of a screwed-up friend polygon): you have no idea if it's really cheating or not.

For all we know (and again, I'm not saying this is high probability, but it's possible) this sexting relationship will make this guy realize how important this stuff is to him, and bring on a real conversation with his fiancee before they get married.

I'm a little bit older than RAGING - coincidentally, also gave my first blow job in '73, I think. But my experience has been different than hers. Very little degradation pool, and what there was not specifically BJ related.

But me, I haven't had sex with young men, or with strangers, since some time in the 80s, so I think those who are blaming it on porn are on the right track. Back then, porn was magazines, for the most part, and not as readily accessible. For a pretty significant percentage of people, the first blow job they saw was the first one they were themselves involved with. The attitude I usually encountered was mostly something along the lines of "Oh my god, I can't believe this wonderful thing is happening". These days, probably 99% of people have seen an onscreen BJ before they have or give one themselves, and have developed attitudes about them.

But the advice is always the same - stop having sex with assholes.

@50 agony: Advice taken. Thanks. After reading this week's SL lineup, I'm desperately looking for my careworn copy of Matt Groening's book, Love is Hell, featuring The Simpsons' predecessors, Binky, Sheba, Bongo, Akbar, and Jeff.

Good grief, Charlie Brown! Why does Joe Newton's latest wicked kickin' spot on graphic of "Scrubs" remind me of Wendie Jo Sperber (who played groom-to-be Tom Hanks' physician sister-in-law, married to his older brother, also an MD) in the 1984 film, "Bachelor Party"? My fault for recently watching "The Hangover"?

Griz tech update (for those interested; otherwise, feel free to skip to the next comment): Aiiiggh! I'm having tech difficulties with downloading what should be free apps connected with my Logic Pro X software! I can't open the links through my online academic advisors, my next assignment is due tomorrow, and all offices, including my local tech help guys are closed until Monday. I emailed my online instructor for an extension to Monday evening (6:00 pm PDT where I am / 9:00 pm EDT there). At least I am comforted knowing I'm not completely a dinosaur: one of my two local tech buddies couldn't access the supposedly free links either. *sigh* And no required reading from the actual Logic Pro X textbook. Another movie night, I guess. Nachos and red, red wiiiiine......stay close to meeee........

CMD, @39.( EmmaL @47). No one said anything about diminished awareness. I have awareness that black Americans are getting targeted and murdered by police, that is very different to being a black American, afraid to drive or walk down the street or call police if a burglary is in progress at my house.
There is serious shit going down to erase cis women's potency and agency.
Whether a gendered answer or not from Dan, his notion of cheating lite in relation to this scenario I find offensive , and disregarding of the woman's need to know the truth before she takes on marriage and maybe babies.
Yes the LW is not responsible for his lies, she is implicated if she continues to have erotic intimacy with him, whether by phone or text or cam or the flesh, it is sexual intimacy and if this guy is pretending monogamy with his fiancée, then he is lying to her.

@41. Capri; you got it arse about, I was the other woman and I can see from a distance that behaving like that served no purpose, no gain, no truth, in the long run. I didn't think about my lover's wife, I just thought of myself.
My husband didn't stray. We had a intense relationship, lived seperately, he was pushing to sell his house and move into the property I shared with some of our kids, he lived with others. I didn't want that, as he hadn't got his anger and nasty mouth in check, and one time when he was raving on about some bullshit, I pulled the plug. A co worker had been moving in on him , so he turned round and pursued her.
We were monogamous for thirty years.

@42: CatB, What black suit? She's a wild one, Ruby Rose. It's amazing to watch how she's gone from an ambitious Aussie, to the big time. A sexy lesbian. Girls are doing it for themselves. A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle.

Two comments on the Capri @41 / Lava @54 exchange:

Capri, you say "He is a grown man and he's allowed to make his own choices for his own life, even if LW would consider them immoral choices if she were in his shoes."

How would being an accessory to an activity which she would consider wrong if she herself were doing it not make her a raging hypocrite? "I wouldn't cheat on my spouse, but I have no qualms about aiding and abetting you cheating on yours" is an abhorrent double standard. (Not saying that I believe phone sex is definitively "cheating." Personally, I think the phone-sex buddy should be open with his fiancée about what his needs are and how he gets them met, and if she doesn't think his kinky chats are cheating, then they're free to proceed.)

And a point Lava touched on: For right or wrong (IMO, for wrong, very wrong), in my experience and observation, if a woman catches her partner cheating, she blames the other woman. She loves her husband/partner; she hasn't even met this other woman, so it's easy to demonise the third party. Cognitive dissonance, and slut-shaming (guys get a pass due to their male libidos; women should be the no-saying gatekeepers, even when the guy is in a committed relationship and the other woman is not). This is why I say PHOTO should step away if she suspects the fiancée wouldn't be okay with the arrangement if she knew about it. It is, as you say, his responsibility to keep any commitments to fidelity that he has made; but the fiancée is unlikely to see it that way, especially with her logic clouded by the hurt feelings she may experience.

(Unless, of course, she sees it as no big deal, which is why he needs to discuss with her what each of them considers cheating.)

#55 Lava - In John Wick Chapter 2, she wore a succession of chic dark suits, fitting her (presumably) Italian character.
In over-the-top action movies like this, there's pretty much always a Head Bad Guy's Lieutenant, who they usually give some quirk(s) to, like a metal hand or shoes with knife edges that they tap-dance you to death with, for some flava. I thought making her mute was an interesting choice, she certainly has an arresting face and watching her sign made you follow it more.
I've never watched Orange is the New Black, so don't believe I'd seen her before.

Cocky @ 58 "Even that kind of bottoming is in a real sense about empowerment and freedom"

Exactly.

Lava- I'm sorry you had bad experiences and I'm now leaning more towards yours and BDF's honesty argument. Thanks.
I still think Dan's answer was gender neutral.

@37, @38, & @55 LavaGirl: You GO, LavaGrrrl!! Spot on! I could not have said it better. I agree with you on the horrible things being pushed into law on women. Is it any wonder that there has been over the last decade a rise in the number of individuals, myself included, identifying as asexual? And the charlatan RepubliKKKan idea of "healthcare" is behind insanely cruel.
and re @55 "A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle". Besides not being a fish, I have other reasons for not personally owning or needing a bicycle (my beloved car, living on a reliable bus route and within walking distance, etc.), but I love your analogy.
Dumb question for everyone: So, from what I'm reading in the comment threads----is marriage strictly for those wanting children nowadays? If so, I'm better off unhitched.

@60, don't cry for me CMD: regrets, I've had a few, but I did it my way.

Lava-
Frank Sinatra in Buenos Aires?

@62 LavaGirl: I like your thinking. Regrets--I've had a few, and did it my way, too.
@63: Frank Sinatra in Buenos Aires......ol' Blue Eyes. God, but I so love and
miss my mom and dad!

Apologies in advance for going off-topic again, but here's another dumb tech question:
Anybody out there who thoroughly understands the electro-accoustic (i.e.: oscillators, synthesizers, motors, cogs, gears, control panels, et. al.) part of LogicPro X? The latest
online assignment is kicking my butt, and is past due because I am hopelessly lost on how
get what I'm creating to match what the instructor wants and how he wants it.
It's a bad night for me to be out of wine. I'll hopefully try again tomorrow--and be able o get some tech help again soon.

@64: Awww, shit! Sorry--I thought I had indented--and properly spell-checked.
This latest HORRIBLE online assignment, complete with a list of "required reading" I couldn't download to find out too late from my online instructor that it was really extra curricular. All this has left me upset to the point of just saving everything I started, logging off my computer, and calling it a night.
And the true shits of it is that I was doing so well, otherwise (what a blessed difference between night and day, to have use of a score editor that offers staves, measures, key signatures, musical notes and chord progressions) these last two weeks!

I'd really like to give the inventor of LogicPro X a good punch in the nose.

@66: ....and with serious aesthetic damage.

Congrats in advance to this week's lucky recipient of the magic number. Griz feels like shit is going to bed, after getting a hug from her beloved.
Goodnight, all.

Hrm. Guess I might as well...

Such enthusiasm sangu. Congratulations!

Capricornius, as someone who values honesty highly, I prefer not to entangle myself with people who are dishonest, and surely not participate in their dishonesty.. As DanFan said, PHOTO has reason to end it for her own sake- both because of possible repercussions when the game is up, and maybe more importantly, for her own integrity and sense of self.

It almost seems that because it's a secret sex thing, people are willing to overlook behavior that they would otherwise find objectionable.

@64-@67: Hoooooooo-boy.....and I DIDN'T have any wine at all posting all that. Please forgive my rant--I was very upset about an online program assignment kicking my butt late Saturday night. 12 AM Sunday--the witching hour--struck while I still couldn't get anything to work right. I now face a missed deadline, and dealing with another late assignment again. Good news that 1) my online instructor is giving me until next Saturday--which should be plenty of time--to still turn it in, and 2) My local tech buddy is available to help me get back on track with understanding what I consider to be the Trumpzilla's butt-ugliest part of LogicPro X tomorrow morning. I do plan on watching a funny movie as a reward for practicing music tonight, and, now that I have restocked my wine supply, to chill out. The Pink Panther Strikes Again!
@69 sanguisuga: Congrats on scoring the big number! I wanted someone other than myself to get this week's honor (I have had the pleasure multiple times already; it's another commenter's turn). Glad it is you this time.

Big hugs, positrons, and VW beeps, and good night all.

Griz, are you participating in a little music therapy? Art is one of the few things that's keeping me positive, hope you get logic up and running, if you have any music technology questions I'd be happy to help, even if I'm only a more casual-level Apple user. :D

Clearly my opinion is in the minority among the Commentariat, and I've enjoyed reading other peoples' perspectives. (Lava, my apologies for placing you as the wronged wife rather than as the other woman. Never assume!) However, I still fail to see anything "dishonest" about a single person having a relationship with a married or otherwise committed person. Her lover may or may not be dishonest, depending on what the terms of his committed relationship are; many couples allow for some degree of outside activity, and it's not up to the single person to either know what those terms are or try to enforce them. Also, love is not a crime, so I don't get the "aiding and abetting" argument - the single person is not betraying anyone's trust. Certainly if it is something that makes you feel awful because you tend to take other peoples' problems onto yourself, or you have reasons to fear the repercussions if your partner's partner finds out about you, then DON'T DO IT. But in this case, LW seemed to have the ideal no-strings sexting relationship she wanted - until she found out about Buddy's fiancee. I still think that's solely his problem to deal with, not hers. But I'm certainly not advocating that she stay in the relationship if it makes her feel dirty or guilty! Ultimately I just don't think it's any of her business, especially given the shallow level of commitment she currently shares with Buddy.

@73 undead ayn rand: Thank you for your kind offer! I'll certainly let you know if I need further tech assistance. I am both musically active and in therapy for military related PTSD.

Thankfully, my online instructor has been very congenial on late assignments. Logic Pro X is new technology to me, so it's taking me a little longer to retain everything. But the rewards are there: staying active and expanding on my existing skills is what makes my life so worthwhile. Add a sweet, automotively eccentric little VW to the mix and my life is complete. Humbly challenging, especially now with deadlines and computer technology to adapt to, but complete. I have also thankfully managed to finally get rid of a lot of shit that was hampering my life, by way of downsizing, donating furniture and other things I was no longer using, and letting go of those who no longer benefit me. At long last I feel I can find closure because I no longer seek the approval of said individuals.

Griz Update re LogicPro X: Whew! I finally finished Assignment #3; another late assignment, but I'm on to Lesson #4 and Assignment #4--due Saturday. @ 73 undead ayn rand: Thanks again for your kind offer--please let's keep in touch. Music is truly the ultimate therapy.
Griz is calling it a night now that I have emailed my zip file to my instructor. Lesson #4 can wait until tomorrow.

Hit me up at uarslog@gmail.com if I can offer any tips or suggestions, I'm pretty good with DAWs and technology though I'd never upload my work here :D

@78 undead ayn rand: Thanks so much! I jotted down your email address and will keep in touch.

Just now getting caught up on this (computer was in the shop), but am I the only one who thinks RAGING's letter reads like it was written by a still-developing AI? Has this been some sort of test?

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