Slog Comments
Happy Seattle Scientists on Inauguration Day
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Science is back on track. Finally, though too late for me. I became too disillusioned after Bush came in to office. I could see what was coming.
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Nice, any work for coders? Microsoft may lay off 3,500 from redmond alone tmrw. They may be layed off as early as 6am. The rumors have been strong. Need any tech support?
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King 5 only likes to film the pretty female scientists. I noticed this a while back. They wouldn't talk to me, but they spent a long time interviewing and photographing the two best-looking girls in my lab (they could be part-time models). Good thing they were smart, too.
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excellent work is also being done in areas other than stem cells (WRT heart tissue); where's their parade, mr. science of convenience and politics? huh, where is it?
props to dara and her lab!!
props to dara and her lab!!
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human embryoes are excellent subjects for research because they are way too small and weak to fight back, they can't cry for help loud enough to be heard, they are too poor to hire lobbyist to petition for their rights.
if the Nazis had thought of that they could have avoided a lot of really bad PR.
(of course, it takes a lot of embryoes to make a lampshade...)
if the Nazis had thought of that they could have avoided a lot of really bad PR.
(of course, it takes a lot of embryoes to make a lampshade...)
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Heimlich @ 8:
Ahh, lovely. Perhaps you aren't really interested, but allow me to retort.
Not a single embryo has been destroyed in this lab.
All of our work is done on embryonic stem cell lines generated in Wisconsin in 1998, from leftover embryos from an Israeli in vitro fertilization clinic.
IVF is a totally unregulated industry in both the US and Israel (as well as many other countries, thanks to anti-regulation conservatives.) Unfertilized human eggs cannot be frozen. Very early embryos can. Therefore, when a couple comes in for therapy and eggs are collected (at risk to the health of the woman), many more are fertilized and frozen than would ever be used by the couple. Thus, hundreds of thousands of these very early embryos are killed, destroyed and literally dumped down the drain each year.
A tiny percentage--a few hundred total--have been diverted and instead turned into embryonic stem cell lines. These embryos were going to be destroyed regardless.
(In Germany, IVF is strictly regulated. Couples are only allowed to fertilize embryos they are going to implant. Thus, there are only a tiny number of these excess embryos. Even still, somewhere around half die during the implantation procedure. So, if you really, really, really believe these very early embryos are the ethical equivalent of a fully grown human adult, go after the IVF people, please.)
How early are these embryos? They're only about a hundred cells total at this stage, resembling a beachball with some sand inside. Embryos at this blastocyst stage are pre-individualization. If you cut it in half, you have identical twins. Put two together, and you get a chimera. (I don't know you're standard for a human life, but I wait until we're talking about an individual before taking things seriously. Identical twins are distinct lives in my ethic. In yours? Not.)
Quite a bit of research on embryonic stem cells is to generate an alternate to organ transplantation. About three thousand heart transplants occur each year in the US. About three thousand people die each day from heart disease (according to the AHA.) There aren't enough organs to go around. The result is a small, but growing, black market for the purchase of organs, from otherwise healthy political prisoners. Delaying, or denying, work with cell lines created from embryos destined for destruction anyways--embryos so early that they aren't even individual human beings yet--directly increases demand for organs forcibly removed from human beings.
Which gets me to my last point. Do you have any clue what actual involuntary human experimentation looks like? Pick up a copy of Doctors from Hell, please. Read it, and read it carefully, before you start casually throwing around Nazi experimentation on human adults as a reference.
If you seriously consider embryonic stem cell research its direct equivalent, you are really displaying a deep and profound ignorance that isn't helping your cause.
More...
Ahh, lovely. Perhaps you aren't really interested, but allow me to retort.
Not a single embryo has been destroyed in this lab.
All of our work is done on embryonic stem cell lines generated in Wisconsin in 1998, from leftover embryos from an Israeli in vitro fertilization clinic.
IVF is a totally unregulated industry in both the US and Israel (as well as many other countries, thanks to anti-regulation conservatives.) Unfertilized human eggs cannot be frozen. Very early embryos can. Therefore, when a couple comes in for therapy and eggs are collected (at risk to the health of the woman), many more are fertilized and frozen than would ever be used by the couple. Thus, hundreds of thousands of these very early embryos are killed, destroyed and literally dumped down the drain each year.
A tiny percentage--a few hundred total--have been diverted and instead turned into embryonic stem cell lines. These embryos were going to be destroyed regardless.
(In Germany, IVF is strictly regulated. Couples are only allowed to fertilize embryos they are going to implant. Thus, there are only a tiny number of these excess embryos. Even still, somewhere around half die during the implantation procedure. So, if you really, really, really believe these very early embryos are the ethical equivalent of a fully grown human adult, go after the IVF people, please.)
How early are these embryos? They're only about a hundred cells total at this stage, resembling a beachball with some sand inside. Embryos at this blastocyst stage are pre-individualization. If you cut it in half, you have identical twins. Put two together, and you get a chimera. (I don't know you're standard for a human life, but I wait until we're talking about an individual before taking things seriously. Identical twins are distinct lives in my ethic. In yours? Not.)
Quite a bit of research on embryonic stem cells is to generate an alternate to organ transplantation. About three thousand heart transplants occur each year in the US. About three thousand people die each day from heart disease (according to the AHA.) There aren't enough organs to go around. The result is a small, but growing, black market for the purchase of organs, from otherwise healthy political prisoners. Delaying, or denying, work with cell lines created from embryos destined for destruction anyways--embryos so early that they aren't even individual human beings yet--directly increases demand for organs forcibly removed from human beings.
Which gets me to my last point. Do you have any clue what actual involuntary human experimentation looks like? Pick up a copy of Doctors from Hell, please. Read it, and read it carefully, before you start casually throwing around Nazi experimentation on human adults as a reference.
If you seriously consider embryonic stem cell research its direct equivalent, you are really displaying a deep and profound ignorance that isn't helping your cause.
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Thank you for your comments.
An embryo is a living human being.
It is 'alive'; it is a genetically unique member of the species (different from its mother, not a piece of her 'tissue'). It has a unique genetic makeup, its DNA is the same it will have as a mature adult (if it is not killed first)
It is true that it is a very young immature human being but biologically it is a human being.
Experimenting on embryos may have less of an 'ick' factor for some because the embryo doesn't look human but it does not take away the embryo's humanity.
Society may choose to ignore biology and deprive the embryo the right to life; thru history society has often denied the humanity of some- Jews by Nazis; blacks by slaveholders; etc. Always those doing the depriving conjure up some pseudo-science (Aryan race, white supremacy, etc) to justify their 'right' to kill or enslave others.
The fact that IVF produces excess embryos does not justify someone scooping them up to experiment on. The Jews used by Nazi experimenters were headed to the gas chamber anyway, does that justify the 'science'?
Human beings were killed to provide the material used in your lab, ironically probably Jews according to your account.
Heimlich seems to be closer than he realized.
Thank you for your comments.
An embryo is a living human being.
It is 'alive'; it is a genetically unique member of the species (different from its mother, not a piece of her 'tissue'). It has a unique genetic makeup, its DNA is the same it will have as a mature adult (if it is not killed first)
It is true that it is a very young immature human being but biologically it is a human being.
Experimenting on embryos may have less of an 'ick' factor for some because the embryo doesn't look human but it does not take away the embryo's humanity.
Society may choose to ignore biology and deprive the embryo the right to life; thru history society has often denied the humanity of some- Jews by Nazis; blacks by slaveholders; etc. Always those doing the depriving conjure up some pseudo-science (Aryan race, white supremacy, etc) to justify their 'right' to kill or enslave others.
The fact that IVF produces excess embryos does not justify someone scooping them up to experiment on. The Jews used by Nazi experimenters were headed to the gas chamber anyway, does that justify the 'science'?
Human beings were killed to provide the material used in your lab, ironically probably Jews according to your account.
Heimlich seems to be closer than he realized.
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Jonathan.
I am unimpressed by your efforts to minimize the humanity of embryos.
("They're only about a hundred cells total at this stage, resembling a beachball with some sand inside.")
My three children were all IVF. I have photos of them when they were 4 or 8 cell clusters. Those clusters were living humans at that stage, they are now beautiful teenage girls.
it is true that embyos are very small and weak and vulnerable; that is not an excuse to slaughter them without remorse, it is a reason for society to exert extra effort on their behalf to protect their rights.
I am unimpressed by your efforts to minimize the humanity of embryos.
("They're only about a hundred cells total at this stage, resembling a beachball with some sand inside.")
My three children were all IVF. I have photos of them when they were 4 or 8 cell clusters. Those clusters were living humans at that stage, they are now beautiful teenage girls.
it is true that embyos are very small and weak and vulnerable; that is not an excuse to slaughter them without remorse, it is a reason for society to exert extra effort on their behalf to protect their rights.
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@9
Hubert Humphrey well said:
"The moral test of government is how that government treats those who are in the dawn of life, the children; those who are in the twilight of life, the elderly; and those who are in the shadows of life, the sick, the needy and the handicapped."
I prefer to substitute 'society' for 'government' but let's not quibble.
HHH spoke eloquently and metaphorically; however the embryos Golob describes truely and literally are "the dawn of life"; human life.
'Science' allows older members of the species to kill and experiment on the youngest.
'Morality' cries out that they be protected.
Hubert Humphrey well said:
"The moral test of government is how that government treats those who are in the dawn of life, the children; those who are in the twilight of life, the elderly; and those who are in the shadows of life, the sick, the needy and the handicapped."
I prefer to substitute 'society' for 'government' but let's not quibble.
HHH spoke eloquently and metaphorically; however the embryos Golob describes truely and literally are "the dawn of life"; human life.
'Science' allows older members of the species to kill and experiment on the youngest.
'Morality' cries out that they be protected.
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>>> Do you have any clue what actual involuntary human experimentation looks like?<<
The notion that if it doesn't produce a graphic image or a lot of blood it is OK is chilling.
If I personally don't see starving children in Africa does that make it OK?
If I personally don't see children abused and killed by pedophiles does that make it OK?
It is true that adults being dismembered and tortured is graphically more compelling than the visual images of what happens to embryos (or aborted fetuses). That does not lessen the moral equvalence.
Sorry, neatness may count in penmanship but it does not mitigate experimentation on humans.
It is too bad for embryos they are not big eyed, fuzzy and cute. Then maybe PETA would dish out to their tormenters some of the treatment they give those who experiment on rabbits.
(btw- do any of the 'actual human embryos' you experiment on volunteer?)
The notion that if it doesn't produce a graphic image or a lot of blood it is OK is chilling.
If I personally don't see starving children in Africa does that make it OK?
If I personally don't see children abused and killed by pedophiles does that make it OK?
It is true that adults being dismembered and tortured is graphically more compelling than the visual images of what happens to embryos (or aborted fetuses). That does not lessen the moral equvalence.
Sorry, neatness may count in penmanship but it does not mitigate experimentation on humans.
It is too bad for embryos they are not big eyed, fuzzy and cute. Then maybe PETA would dish out to their tormenters some of the treatment they give those who experiment on rabbits.
(btw- do any of the 'actual human embryos' you experiment on volunteer?)
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How dare you take genetic material that was going to be thrown away and try to help thousands of people suffering from organ failure?! I say, sir, HOW DARE YOU.
Those babies deserve a proper trashcan funeral.
Those babies deserve a proper trashcan funeral.
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Rebekah, perhaps you could donate your heart for scientific research since it is the darkest coldest spot in the universe.
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Absolutly.
In the name of 'science' it should be open season on any human life that society devalues.
Homeless.
Poor.
Minority (Tuskegee VD research, anyone?)
Queers (one cure for AIDS- coming right up!)
Absolutly.
In the name of 'science' it should be open season on any human life that society devalues.
Homeless.
Poor.
Minority (Tuskegee VD research, anyone?)
Queers (one cure for AIDS- coming right up!)
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Using embryos for research is unconscionable.
If embryos are not used scientist will (continue to) find sources of stem cells (wisdom teeth, etc) that do not require destroying a human life.
Stem cell research is fine, just don't kill anyone in the process.
If embryos are not used scientist will (continue to) find sources of stem cells (wisdom teeth, etc) that do not require destroying a human life.
Stem cell research is fine, just don't kill anyone in the process.
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@17
Yes, because using what is essentially TRASH in order to SAVE THOUSANDS OF LIVES is exactly the same as selectively killing walking, talking human beings with things like, y'know, thumbs. And central nervous systems.
My God, how blind I've been.
Yes, because using what is essentially TRASH in order to SAVE THOUSANDS OF LIVES is exactly the same as selectively killing walking, talking human beings with things like, y'know, thumbs. And central nervous systems.
My God, how blind I've been.
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All of the scientists seemed to be really happy today.
That said, we wouldn't have found out about the possibly more useful pluripotent stem cells we might be able to use to do organ and tissue repair if King George hadn't been such an obstructionist ass...
Bygones.
That said, we wouldn't have found out about the possibly more useful pluripotent stem cells we might be able to use to do organ and tissue repair if King George hadn't been such an obstructionist ass...
Bygones.
25
Let me tell you something, ultra-conservative troll who is too cowardly to post under a real name: The combination of sanctimony with a total lack of critical thinking isn't a winner.
"An embryo is a living human being.
It is 'alive'; it is a genetically unique member of the species (different from its mother, not a piece of her 'tissue'). It has a unique genetic makeup, its DNA is the same it will have as a mature adult (if it is not killed first)."
This sounds so reasonable, yet it's total nonsense. Every person sheds billions of cells each day with a full complement of human DNA--unique to just one person. You are constantly digesting cells with human DNA, dropping skin cells with human DNA. Human DNA doesn't automatically make a human life.
It's an absurdity, ignoring all of gestation, the astonishing processes of development and differentiation. It takes a full trimester--three months after implantation--to finally get all of the hundreds of cell types it takes to make a human. It takes another full trimester--another three months in the womb--to get close to having functional organs.
DNA. What an ugly, and sad, definition of what makes a human being. DNA. 46 chromosomes. That's really all it is to you?
And, lay off the pre-implantation embryos are just like Jews comments. I'm Jewish. Do you know that Jewish faith--like most faiths around the world--places the moment of ensoulment--of humanness--at a point just after the first trimester? Jews--humans--are much more than a collection of DNA.
Thank you for playing slog.
"An embryo is a living human being.
It is 'alive'; it is a genetically unique member of the species (different from its mother, not a piece of her 'tissue'). It has a unique genetic makeup, its DNA is the same it will have as a mature adult (if it is not killed first)."
This sounds so reasonable, yet it's total nonsense. Every person sheds billions of cells each day with a full complement of human DNA--unique to just one person. You are constantly digesting cells with human DNA, dropping skin cells with human DNA. Human DNA doesn't automatically make a human life.
It's an absurdity, ignoring all of gestation, the astonishing processes of development and differentiation. It takes a full trimester--three months after implantation--to finally get all of the hundreds of cell types it takes to make a human. It takes another full trimester--another three months in the womb--to get close to having functional organs.
DNA. What an ugly, and sad, definition of what makes a human being. DNA. 46 chromosomes. That's really all it is to you?
And, lay off the pre-implantation embryos are just like Jews comments. I'm Jewish. Do you know that Jewish faith--like most faiths around the world--places the moment of ensoulment--of humanness--at a point just after the first trimester? Jews--humans--are much more than a collection of DNA.
Thank you for playing slog.
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"Every person sheds billions of cells each day with a full complement of human DNA--"
Those cells are part of a human being, an embryo is a human being.
"Every person sheds billions of cells each day with a full complement of human DNA--"
Those cells are part of a human being, an embryo is a human being.
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We are playing "science rules"; not "religions of the world trivia". The fact that an embryo from conception is a new unique living member of Homo Sapiens is biology. What a Jew or Catholic or abortionist thinks about the embryo is a separate discussion.
We are playing "science rules"; not "religions of the world trivia". The fact that an embryo from conception is a new unique living member of Homo Sapiens is biology. What a Jew or Catholic or abortionist thinks about the embryo is a separate discussion.
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"The fact that an embryo from conception is a new unique living member of Homo Sapiens is biology."
"Those cells are part of a human being, an embryo is a human being."
Why? Explain to me, using evidence, why this 'is biology.' (And, stop being a coward and post with your real name.)
All those cells you destroy each day (all with human DNA) can be converted into a cell just like an embryonic stem cell by turning on as little as two genes the cells already have within them. These converted iPS cells can go on to form, all by themselves, all of the cell types in an adult mammal. Here's the scientific paper demonstrating that fact.
Where's your rigorous, scientific, empiric, evidence that a pre-implantation embryo is a human life?
"Those cells are part of a human being, an embryo is a human being."
Why? Explain to me, using evidence, why this 'is biology.' (And, stop being a coward and post with your real name.)
All those cells you destroy each day (all with human DNA) can be converted into a cell just like an embryonic stem cell by turning on as little as two genes the cells already have within them. These converted iPS cells can go on to form, all by themselves, all of the cell types in an adult mammal. Here's the scientific paper demonstrating that fact.
Where's your rigorous, scientific, empiric, evidence that a pre-implantation embryo is a human life?
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Sure an embryo is helpless and vulnerable and needs a lot of support before it can live on its own. But so does a 3 month old fetus and an eight month old fetus and a new born infant and a critically ill adult on life support and a terminally ill eighty year old.
The fact remains that the embryo is 'alive'; it is genetically a Homo Sapiens thus a 'human'.
It takes some empathy and imagination to grant those cells their rights as a 'human' but that is an ethical, not scientific, question.
Recognizing the biological reality is the first step to making a just ethical decision.
Sure an embryo is helpless and vulnerable and needs a lot of support before it can live on its own. But so does a 3 month old fetus and an eight month old fetus and a new born infant and a critically ill adult on life support and a terminally ill eighty year old.
The fact remains that the embryo is 'alive'; it is genetically a Homo Sapiens thus a 'human'.
It takes some empathy and imagination to grant those cells their rights as a 'human' but that is an ethical, not scientific, question.
Recognizing the biological reality is the first step to making a just ethical decision.
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Where's your rigorous, scientific, empiric, evidence that a pre-implantation embryo is a human life?
OK
Try to keep up.....
Is it alive or dead?
>alive
Using the Linnaean system of classification used in the biological sciences to describe and categorize all living things what species does this living organism belong to?
>Homo Sapiens (do a DNA test if you don't believe me)
Biologically it is cut and dry.
but...but...
All those cells you destroy each day (all with human DNA) can be converted into a cell just like an embryonic stem cell by turning on as little as two genes the cells already have within them.
Yes.
But the embryo is already 'turned on'.
OK
Try to keep up.....
Is it alive or dead?
>alive
Using the Linnaean system of classification used in the biological sciences to describe and categorize all living things what species does this living organism belong to?
>Homo Sapiens (do a DNA test if you don't believe me)
Biologically it is cut and dry.
but...but...
All those cells you destroy each day (all with human DNA) can be converted into a cell just like an embryonic stem cell by turning on as little as two genes the cells already have within them.
Yes.
But the embryo is already 'turned on'.
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The point of genetic identity is that it is not part of the mothers tissue, as the abortionist would have you believe.
It is a new unique separate member of the species.
The point of genetic identity is that it is not part of the mothers tissue, as the abortionist would have you believe.
It is a new unique separate member of the species.
Comments (33) RSS