Slog Comments
There Was No Girl-on-Girl(-on-Donut) Action at This Year's Festival
1
Pardon my question, but if two trans guys/gender queer guys have sex in HUMP, is that not gay sex?
Hm. I can see my friends and I are going to have to do a girl on girl on girl on girl on girl Hump entry next year.
Hm. I can see my friends and I are going to have to do a girl on girl on girl on girl on girl Hump entry next year.
4
How does Mateo Valentino know that his entry was the only trans porn in the festival? It sounds like he is making some, ahem, assumptions. Like he failed to resist the temptation to assign gender to people who he didn't know.
I thought his first message was on point and simply corrected a mistake. I thought his second message was a bit victimish. Humans have a natural tendency to assume that what one sees, is. I think that is fine, as long as we react gracefully when an assumption turns out to be wrong.
Of course it is our duty to treat trans/queer/whatever people with respect when we become aware of their status, but it is too much to expect us to actively question the gender of every person we meet in every situation. I guarantee that Mateo makes plenty of assumptions about gender too.
Over the years I think HUMP has proven itself to be welcoming to all. There's always someone wishing that HUMP would market itself more directly to their interest group. Recently on another thread I saw someone getting upset because HUMP didn't do more to have more Hentai animation entries. The real reason there is so little trans porn at HUMP is because there are so few trans people, and only a small percentage of them really want to make porn.
I thought his first message was on point and simply corrected a mistake. I thought his second message was a bit victimish. Humans have a natural tendency to assume that what one sees, is. I think that is fine, as long as we react gracefully when an assumption turns out to be wrong.
Of course it is our duty to treat trans/queer/whatever people with respect when we become aware of their status, but it is too much to expect us to actively question the gender of every person we meet in every situation. I guarantee that Mateo makes plenty of assumptions about gender too.
Over the years I think HUMP has proven itself to be welcoming to all. There's always someone wishing that HUMP would market itself more directly to their interest group. Recently on another thread I saw someone getting upset because HUMP didn't do more to have more Hentai animation entries. The real reason there is so little trans porn at HUMP is because there are so few trans people, and only a small percentage of them really want to make porn.
6
Shorter-
One set of mentally ill perverts is angry at being confused as another kind of pervert. Audience VERY short on handshaking as a form of greeting watches. Janitors in the bathrooms the next morning gag helplessly and refuse to clean the mess after film event. News at 11.
One set of mentally ill perverts is angry at being confused as another kind of pervert. Audience VERY short on handshaking as a form of greeting watches. Janitors in the bathrooms the next morning gag helplessly and refuse to clean the mess after film event. News at 11.
7
@6, can you rewrite your dismissive screed so that it makes sense? It is so riddled with typos that it is hard to make sense of, but I'm assuming the gist is that you disapprove of people having fun in ways that you disapprove of.
8
Shorter @6-
"Trans people are gross."
All people are beautiful, Seattleblues, and bigotry is perversion. I don't mind you being a bigot but I wish you'd keep it in your bedroom and out of my face.
"Trans people are gross."
All people are beautiful, Seattleblues, and bigotry is perversion. I don't mind you being a bigot but I wish you'd keep it in your bedroom and out of my face.
9
@7 just ignore this mess. he/she is probably hungover and lonely and can't stand reading about other people having fun.
@those who were there: were there many (any?) BDSM entries?
@those who were there: were there many (any?) BDSM entries?
10
@4 you said it more gracefully than I.
in addition, I would like to say that, no matter how un-PC it is, it always makes me a little sad and confused further about the status of "women" to see dykes leave the identification behind for something more masculine. nowadays we even have the new "trans-masculine" (I guess to be sure they are sufficiently separated from feminine trans folk) to deal with.
as a gender-queer appearing dyke myself, I am intimately familiar with these questions and struggles. and what I see is many women rather flippantly discarding their female ID's to take on something masculine, or in the middle, or whatever...as long as it's explicitly NOT-FEMALE. even going so far as to prefer "he" when they are not even male-identified.
I have yet to see this behavior in the gay male community. they are more than happy to maintain their "he's his him and male" self-references. dykes are another story. and how can I criticize them for being attracted to the obvious benefits of being male-identified? I just wonder if they're hurting the situation more than they're helping it. perhaps sticking around as a female and helping to change our culture and what it can look like to be a female would be more socially responsible.
in addition, I would like to say that, no matter how un-PC it is, it always makes me a little sad and confused further about the status of "women" to see dykes leave the identification behind for something more masculine. nowadays we even have the new "trans-masculine" (I guess to be sure they are sufficiently separated from feminine trans folk) to deal with.
as a gender-queer appearing dyke myself, I am intimately familiar with these questions and struggles. and what I see is many women rather flippantly discarding their female ID's to take on something masculine, or in the middle, or whatever...as long as it's explicitly NOT-FEMALE. even going so far as to prefer "he" when they are not even male-identified.
I have yet to see this behavior in the gay male community. they are more than happy to maintain their "he's his him and male" self-references. dykes are another story. and how can I criticize them for being attracted to the obvious benefits of being male-identified? I just wonder if they're hurting the situation more than they're helping it. perhaps sticking around as a female and helping to change our culture and what it can look like to be a female would be more socially responsible.
11
I was confused about the designation of Donut as dyke porn. There seemed to be a lot of cocksucking in it for a girl-on-girl film. Glad this got cleared up.
12
Not to derail the conversation, but what I thought was interesting about the "Donut" entry in particular from an audience perspective was that the acts contained therein weren't considered "sex" at all. For those not at a screening, the voting sheets only had "X"s for the "Best Sex" category for entries that contained sex. I'm not sure if this distinction was made by the filmmakers themselves or from the Stranger's screeners, but it was interesting to see the entries that "appeared" to have what one would consider sex (in this case, among other things, a strap-on blowjob), but did not end up at a voting option in that particular category.
Assuming, perhaps incorrectly that it was the Stranger assigning the categories (which things qualified as Kink or Sex), we were kind of stuck reverse-engineering what the qualifications must have been to get on that part of the ballot.
Which begs the question: Does anyone know for sure if the eligible categories were chosen by the filmmakers themselves or the HUMP committee?
[Note: there were some cases where we generally agreed, like in the case where what appeared on the screen was supposed to be sex, but it could be assumed from the conspicuous angles involved that it was Cinemax-style simulated]
Assuming, perhaps incorrectly that it was the Stranger assigning the categories (which things qualified as Kink or Sex), we were kind of stuck reverse-engineering what the qualifications must have been to get on that part of the ballot.
Which begs the question: Does anyone know for sure if the eligible categories were chosen by the filmmakers themselves or the HUMP committee?
[Note: there were some cases where we generally agreed, like in the case where what appeared on the screen was supposed to be sex, but it could be assumed from the conspicuous angles involved that it was Cinemax-style simulated]
14
@10 Obviously you haven't heard the gay male community commonly using "girl/friend, she, her, bitch" and other female-oriented terms. I've heard many a gay dude use almost exclusively female nouns and pronouns when talking about themselves or other men.
15
yes, I have heard gay men refer to each other with female terms. but that is not really the same thing. I'm not talking about referring to ourselves or each other with gendered terms on occasion... I'm addressing the actual changing of identification. leaving your birth/sex ID for another. that is what I do not see happening with such abandon in the gay male community.
16
@5 From the 'pedia...
People who identify as genderqueer may think of themselves as one or more of the following:
-both man and woman (bigender, pangender);
-neither man nor woman (genderless, agender);
-moving between genders (genderfluid);[2]
-third gender or other-gendered; includes those who do not place a name to their gender;[3]
-having an overlap of, or blurred lines between, gender identity and sexual orientation.[4][5]
Hope that clears it up for you.
People who identify as genderqueer may think of themselves as one or more of the following:
-both man and woman (bigender, pangender);
-neither man nor woman (genderless, agender);
-moving between genders (genderfluid);[2]
-third gender or other-gendered; includes those who do not place a name to their gender;[3]
-having an overlap of, or blurred lines between, gender identity and sexual orientation.[4][5]
Hope that clears it up for you.
17
i don't want to have to have a fucking socially acceptable safety checklist to go through before talking to/about someone. way to make the world too fucking confusing.
if you look like a couple dyke chicks throwing donuts on each other, people are going to call you a couple of dyke chicks that threw donuts on each other.
deal with it.
i'd kill for a donut right now. im starving.
if you look like a couple dyke chicks throwing donuts on each other, people are going to call you a couple of dyke chicks that threw donuts on each other.
deal with it.
i'd kill for a donut right now. im starving.
19
@18 - Right you are! "Teenage Dream" was INCREDIBLE. So uplifting and sweet!
@9 - There were at least two BDSM submissions included. The ones that come immediately to mind are "Knife," "Don't Call Me Missy," and "You'll Find It."
@9 - There were at least two BDSM submissions included. The ones that come immediately to mind are "Knife," "Don't Call Me Missy," and "You'll Find It."
20
@19 Also the one with the boy in surgery! I can't remember the title, but I think it was the third or fourth film.
21
@17
If it's so confusing to you, how the hell can you handle life in general. If respect is hard for you, I take it you don't expect any in return. In life, there are differences and a lot of shit you have to clue yourself into, like sexuality and gender variations. Good luck. smh
If it's so confusing to you, how the hell can you handle life in general. If respect is hard for you, I take it you don't expect any in return. In life, there are differences and a lot of shit you have to clue yourself into, like sexuality and gender variations. Good luck. smh
22
@21, you couldn't get any more trans-friendly, trans-advocate, and tranny-chaser than I, but I read both those actors as dykes when I saw the film on Saturday. I feel like, what Derrickito is saying, is that it's asking a bit much to "try to look for clues more, ask more questions, resist the temptation to assign gender to people that we don't know," especially in the context of two actors on screen that we can't ask questions of. Further, what is the logical conclusion of this mindset? Are we to be truly expected to cast of all of our assumptions of other people? Are there certain hallmarks of those outside the gender binary that exist across cultures? There is not, we must all make assumptions in this life.
23
Bottom line, if you look physically one gender but identify as the other, you're not allowed to complain if people get confused until you explain it to them.
24
@ 23, 22, 21, 17/18
As one of the actors in Donut! I will say that you all need to challenge your assumptions.
Your assumptions on what dykes look like. there are many dykes with bodies that resemble the bodies one might assume to be 'male'.
Your assumptions on what men look like.
Your assumptions on what sex looks like and is for people.
I also challenge you to chesk out some gender and queer theory. Try reading Susan Stryker or Leslie Feinberg.
There's a little thing called: it's fucked up for the oppressed to have to educate the oppressor, so for someone to demand that I explain my gender identity and body to them so they can better understand me is outrageous.
I find when people challenge their socialization and reach out to learn about what they do not understand when they are watching a porn like Donut! they can see it without bias.
Also, look for clues! I am a transguy who can afford medical treatements in addition to that I am not interested in altering my body to meet up with what people expect to be "male".
I hope you educate yourselves into knowing that genders and bodies come in all different ways and names.
ps. 17/18 if you're a cisman* or straight of any gender (not assuming you are, just stating) check your misogynistic language, "dyke" isn't a a word for you to use, and chick is so 90's and disrespectful.
*a term you should become acquainted with
I appreciate Dan Savage amending Hump's blunder. I also want to state that we tried to make it clear we were trans in our documentation to Hump and it was looked over. I wouldn't say Hump is the greatest at being inclusive, but I am glad to know trans and genderqueer entries will be encouraged in next year's call for submissions.
As one of the actors in Donut! I will say that you all need to challenge your assumptions.
Your assumptions on what dykes look like. there are many dykes with bodies that resemble the bodies one might assume to be 'male'.
Your assumptions on what men look like.
Your assumptions on what sex looks like and is for people.
I also challenge you to chesk out some gender and queer theory. Try reading Susan Stryker or Leslie Feinberg.
There's a little thing called: it's fucked up for the oppressed to have to educate the oppressor, so for someone to demand that I explain my gender identity and body to them so they can better understand me is outrageous.
I find when people challenge their socialization and reach out to learn about what they do not understand when they are watching a porn like Donut! they can see it without bias.
Also, look for clues! I am a transguy who can afford medical treatements in addition to that I am not interested in altering my body to meet up with what people expect to be "male".
I hope you educate yourselves into knowing that genders and bodies come in all different ways and names.
ps. 17/18 if you're a cisman* or straight of any gender (not assuming you are, just stating) check your misogynistic language, "dyke" isn't a a word for you to use, and chick is so 90's and disrespectful.
*a term you should become acquainted with
I appreciate Dan Savage amending Hump's blunder. I also want to state that we tried to make it clear we were trans in our documentation to Hump and it was looked over. I wouldn't say Hump is the greatest at being inclusive, but I am glad to know trans and genderqueer entries will be encouraged in next year's call for submissions.
27
@24: I'm Jewish, but don't look TERRIBLY Jewish. I don't get all offended when people get confused; instead, I inform them.
But really, the fact is that gender is bimodal. There are people all along the spectrum from male to female, but the vast majority are at one end or the other. It's perfectly reasonable to assume that someone with curves is female and that someone with broad shoulders is male. If we cisgender folks are incorrect, our bad; just let us know and we'll refer to you properly in the future. I don't see where the oppression is in classifying people's gender by what they appear to be in the absence of other evidence.
But really, the fact is that gender is bimodal. There are people all along the spectrum from male to female, but the vast majority are at one end or the other. It's perfectly reasonable to assume that someone with curves is female and that someone with broad shoulders is male. If we cisgender folks are incorrect, our bad; just let us know and we'll refer to you properly in the future. I don't see where the oppression is in classifying people's gender by what they appear to be in the absence of other evidence.
28
@4 "Of course it is our duty to treat trans/queer/whatever people with respect when we become aware of their status, but it is too much to expect us to actively question the gender of every person we meet in every situation." I have a great link for you that might help you realise why what you just said was busted: http://queersunited.blogspot.com/2008/08… .
and KT-- you are cracking me up! Thank you for showing you believe that:
1) every trans* person who was assigned female at birth
a) is male identified
b) emerges from the lesbian community
b1) especially since those who DO fit a+b are leaving Lesbian Community to the Lesbians.
c) owes anything to anyone(--misogyny much?)
c1) especially the responsibility to be political
c1a) in a method you like
c1a1)especially weighing your agenda across the back of individual trans* folks. OH WAIT....
2) that you have permission to judge/police the cultural/political/personal identity of another. Ironic--it wasn't so long ago that your community was experiencing what we are now.
There's a line between un-PC and oppressive. Your 1970s understanding is across it. By the way, sorry it took me so long to finish this response--this queer-as-hell, fierce, fab, femme transman has been nurturing his biological child's self esteem, independence, etc. Yanno. Now that I'm done talking to your sweet self, I'm gonna go write more feminist poetry. But I promise I'll only read it around the lesbians I know that actually respect my identity and my work to end sexual violence against people of all genders ;)
and KT-- you are cracking me up! Thank you for showing you believe that:
1) every trans* person who was assigned female at birth
a) is male identified
b) emerges from the lesbian community
b1) especially since those who DO fit a+b are leaving Lesbian Community to the Lesbians.
c) owes anything to anyone(--misogyny much?)
c1) especially the responsibility to be political
c1a) in a method you like
c1a1)especially weighing your agenda across the back of individual trans* folks. OH WAIT....
2) that you have permission to judge/police the cultural/political/personal identity of another. Ironic--it wasn't so long ago that your community was experiencing what we are now.
There's a line between un-PC and oppressive. Your 1970s understanding is across it. By the way, sorry it took me so long to finish this response--this queer-as-hell, fierce, fab, femme transman has been nurturing his biological child's self esteem, independence, etc. Yanno. Now that I'm done talking to your sweet self, I'm gonna go write more feminist poetry. But I promise I'll only read it around the lesbians I know that actually respect my identity and my work to end sexual violence against people of all genders ;)
30
@ 27 Then I am now formally asking you and anyone else to CHALLENGE your assumptions on what gender looks like.
However, of you're fixated on secondary body characteristics to indicate gender please note hat in Donut! I was wearing a binder to bind my chest to appear "less feminine" and showed my cock.
I am glad you have a perspective that cidpeople will be reasonable enough to refer to "us" (trans people) properly, it would seem to me that you yourself are that reasonable.
Others aren't. Those are the oppressive people who don't and won't hear or see the experiences, bodies, and lives of trans people "properly', as it were.
However, of you're fixated on secondary body characteristics to indicate gender please note hat in Donut! I was wearing a binder to bind my chest to appear "less feminine" and showed my cock.
I am glad you have a perspective that cidpeople will be reasonable enough to refer to "us" (trans people) properly, it would seem to me that you yourself are that reasonable.
Others aren't. Those are the oppressive people who don't and won't hear or see the experiences, bodies, and lives of trans people "properly', as it were.
31
@ 29 thanks! We loved making it, it was so fun!
Also, behind the scenes side note, the police showed up towards the end of the shoot, how appropro is that!?
Also, behind the scenes side note, the police showed up towards the end of the shoot, how appropro is that!?
32
ps. if you LIKED Donut! and want to know more about other porns about transfags for people who love us check out my tumblr!
http://olivergold.tumblr.com/
http://olivergold.tumblr.com/
33
@venomlash, you make a good point, it's all about the reasonableness of assumptions. Also I love that you used "bimodal".
Human brains classify things, and that's ok. Ideally, we realize that our assumptions and categories are fallible and indistinct, but it doesn't make them unreasonable. I live in the US and assume most of the people I meet are Americans. Now sometimes I'm wrong (Canadians and non-US Latin Americans... you folks can have whole conversations with me and I'll NEVER KNOW you aren't American unless you have a particularly strong Nova Scotia thing happening), but usually I'm right, and I'm perfectly willing to be corrected.
I mean, most everybody on slog does know that "genders and bodies come in all different ways and names". However, some of those combos (especially the rarer ones) can't be accurately predicted without information from the party in question. If there is no way to know without asking, and it's fucked up for someone to ask the person to educate them, and they are unhappy about getting mislabeled, but dropping all gender assumptions is both completely impractical (not how human brains work) and/or means calling people "it" (as the most common neutral pronoun)... where does that leave us?
Before we completely cluster the whole concept of communicating about gender, can't we agree that if a person's gender identity is incorrectly identified that we handle it with a "Oh, BTW..."?
The same way we handle "Actually, that's not my name/religion/nationality/natural hair color/sexual orientation/job title/favorite ice cream/preferred position, I'm..."
Human brains classify things, and that's ok. Ideally, we realize that our assumptions and categories are fallible and indistinct, but it doesn't make them unreasonable. I live in the US and assume most of the people I meet are Americans. Now sometimes I'm wrong (Canadians and non-US Latin Americans... you folks can have whole conversations with me and I'll NEVER KNOW you aren't American unless you have a particularly strong Nova Scotia thing happening), but usually I'm right, and I'm perfectly willing to be corrected.
I mean, most everybody on slog does know that "genders and bodies come in all different ways and names". However, some of those combos (especially the rarer ones) can't be accurately predicted without information from the party in question. If there is no way to know without asking, and it's fucked up for someone to ask the person to educate them, and they are unhappy about getting mislabeled, but dropping all gender assumptions is both completely impractical (not how human brains work) and/or means calling people "it" (as the most common neutral pronoun)... where does that leave us?
Before we completely cluster the whole concept of communicating about gender, can't we agree that if a person's gender identity is incorrectly identified that we handle it with a "Oh, BTW..."?
The same way we handle "Actually, that's not my name/religion/nationality/natural hair color/sexual orientation/job title/favorite ice cream/preferred position, I'm..."
34
kallian people don't get murdered for preferring bubble gum ice cream over butter pecan ;)
and you can actually very easily find out someone's pronouns. Repeat after me: "Hi, My name is Kallian and my pronouns are ___ and ___. You?"
By the way, the most common respectful gender neutral pronoun set is they and them--Shakespeare used it back in the day, it's conjugated like you're used to doing for this set. Zie and Hir is probably the second most used set.
and you can actually very easily find out someone's pronouns. Repeat after me: "Hi, My name is Kallian and my pronouns are ___ and ___. You?"
By the way, the most common respectful gender neutral pronoun set is they and them--Shakespeare used it back in the day, it's conjugated like you're used to doing for this set. Zie and Hir is probably the second most used set.
35
@28, your link doesn't work. I'll read it, and keep an open mind, but I find your suggestion in comment #34 totally impractical.
I'd like to defend assumptions for a bit. Assumptions are incredibly useful shortcuts that humans use all the time. Without assumptions, we would have no time to do anything useful at all, instead we'd spend all our time building up an internal picture of reality from first principles.
Even you make hundreds of assumptions a day, and I'd wager you are more sensitive than most to making assumptions. You probably speak to people you meet in English. Assumption! You probably try to pay for your purchases with U.S. currency. Assumption! You probably assume that someone you speak to can hear. Assumption! You probably assume someone you touch can feel. Assumption! You probably assume that the sun will come up tomorrow. Assumption! You probably assume that the water that comes out of your tap is safe to drink. Assumption! You probably assume the gender of people you see every day, even if you have trained yourself into using neutral pronouns. I dare you to tell me that you don't assume that Fred Phelps (of God Hates Fags) is a man.
BTW, do you ask all your friends and acquaintances each day which pronouns they prefer, or do you just assume they are the same each day? What if they change their minds in the night?
An assumption is a fine thing to make, as long as we react gracefully to being wrong. Assumptions allow us to interact with the world much, much more efficiently, effectively, and safely. The nature of assumptions is that they should always be provisional in our minds, that we should always be ready to reverse an assumption when we discover we were wrong, and get on with our damn day.
I don't mean any disrespect to you when I say that I wouldn't want to live in the kind of world you seem to envision. A world that I had to verify every assumption of mine every day. Even confirming everyone's gender pronoun choices upon meeting them is simply too awkward, and too inefficient, and simply too much to ask. I'd bet good money that in my entire life I've yet to meet even one person who would have chosen to be called a different pronoun (than the one I assumed) if I'd thought to ask. If I ever assume wrong, and am politely corrected, I'll cheerfully use whichever pronouns they choose. The trans guys I've known have very much wanted to be called "he" and "him" and made that obvious by how they dressed and carried themselves. In fact, I think they would have felt like they weren't "passing" in the way that they hoped if I'd asked what pronouns they preferred.
Anyway, interesting topic, and I respect your opinion, but I'll go right along using gendered pronouns, and making assumptions left and right.
More...
I'd like to defend assumptions for a bit. Assumptions are incredibly useful shortcuts that humans use all the time. Without assumptions, we would have no time to do anything useful at all, instead we'd spend all our time building up an internal picture of reality from first principles.
Even you make hundreds of assumptions a day, and I'd wager you are more sensitive than most to making assumptions. You probably speak to people you meet in English. Assumption! You probably try to pay for your purchases with U.S. currency. Assumption! You probably assume that someone you speak to can hear. Assumption! You probably assume someone you touch can feel. Assumption! You probably assume that the sun will come up tomorrow. Assumption! You probably assume that the water that comes out of your tap is safe to drink. Assumption! You probably assume the gender of people you see every day, even if you have trained yourself into using neutral pronouns. I dare you to tell me that you don't assume that Fred Phelps (of God Hates Fags) is a man.
BTW, do you ask all your friends and acquaintances each day which pronouns they prefer, or do you just assume they are the same each day? What if they change their minds in the night?
An assumption is a fine thing to make, as long as we react gracefully to being wrong. Assumptions allow us to interact with the world much, much more efficiently, effectively, and safely. The nature of assumptions is that they should always be provisional in our minds, that we should always be ready to reverse an assumption when we discover we were wrong, and get on with our damn day.
I don't mean any disrespect to you when I say that I wouldn't want to live in the kind of world you seem to envision. A world that I had to verify every assumption of mine every day. Even confirming everyone's gender pronoun choices upon meeting them is simply too awkward, and too inefficient, and simply too much to ask. I'd bet good money that in my entire life I've yet to meet even one person who would have chosen to be called a different pronoun (than the one I assumed) if I'd thought to ask. If I ever assume wrong, and am politely corrected, I'll cheerfully use whichever pronouns they choose. The trans guys I've known have very much wanted to be called "he" and "him" and made that obvious by how they dressed and carried themselves. In fact, I think they would have felt like they weren't "passing" in the way that they hoped if I'd asked what pronouns they preferred.
Anyway, interesting topic, and I respect your opinion, but I'll go right along using gendered pronouns, and making assumptions left and right.
36
It will be true that now most are interested like sex enjoyment. sex is the basic needs of every human beings now. http://www.ratuv.co.il/
38
Whoa, Nelly. There's a deluge that seems to have occured here as a result of my comments to Dan.
I didn't really want to comment again, but I feel like I must say this: In my OP above, I swear I wasn't trying to accuse anyone in particular of doing anything bad. My post was meant to be really general, as in a "Hmm. What kinds of things will make trans people, especially those who might not pass to everyone, more in to making porn for HUMP!?"
I know, I know, people see what they see. I said that. I also think it is natural to classify things and to make assumptions about what one is seeing. It's not bad to be wrong, and it doesn't mean you're a bad person. I wasn't trying to make that kind of a statement. If you think I was doing some militant "call out" or something, you totally missed the point.
I'm disappointed in how emphatically defensive a lot of these posts are. Especially if trans/genderqueer is new to you, don't you think it'd be more appropriate to keep an open mind and be more humble? I get it that you might have thought to have seen something different and felt attacked by my comments. But I think that being defensive closes you off to absorbing new things and challenging yourselves. In good ways.
Honestly, in all, with my comments, I'm just trying to encourage positive growth for all of us as a community.
<3 Mateo
I didn't really want to comment again, but I feel like I must say this: In my OP above, I swear I wasn't trying to accuse anyone in particular of doing anything bad. My post was meant to be really general, as in a "Hmm. What kinds of things will make trans people, especially those who might not pass to everyone, more in to making porn for HUMP!?"
I know, I know, people see what they see. I said that. I also think it is natural to classify things and to make assumptions about what one is seeing. It's not bad to be wrong, and it doesn't mean you're a bad person. I wasn't trying to make that kind of a statement. If you think I was doing some militant "call out" or something, you totally missed the point.
I'm disappointed in how emphatically defensive a lot of these posts are. Especially if trans/genderqueer is new to you, don't you think it'd be more appropriate to keep an open mind and be more humble? I get it that you might have thought to have seen something different and felt attacked by my comments. But I think that being defensive closes you off to absorbing new things and challenging yourselves. In good ways.
Honestly, in all, with my comments, I'm just trying to encourage positive growth for all of us as a community.
<3 Mateo
39
Whoa, Nelly. There's a deluge that seems to have occured here as a result of my comments to Dan.
I didn't really want to comment again, but I feel like I must say this: In my OP above, I swear I wasn't trying to accuse anyone in particular of doing anything bad. My post was meant to be really general, as in a "Hmm. What kinds of things will make trans people, especially those who might not pass to everyone, more in to making porn for HUMP!?"
I know, I know, people see what they see. I said that. I also think it is natural to classify things and to make assumptions about what one is seeing. It's not bad to be wrong, and it doesn't mean you're a bad person. I wasn't trying to make that kind of a statement. If you think I was doing some militant "call out" or something, you totally missed the point.
I'm disappointed in how emphatically defensive a lot of these posts are. Especially if trans/genderqueer is new to you, don't you think it'd be more appropriate to keep an open mind and be more humble? I get it that you might have thought to have seen something different and felt attacked by my comments. But I think that being defensive closes you off to absorbing new things and challenging yourselves. In good ways.
Honestly, in all, with my comments, I'm just trying to encourage positive growth for all of us as a community.
<3 Mateo
I didn't really want to comment again, but I feel like I must say this: In my OP above, I swear I wasn't trying to accuse anyone in particular of doing anything bad. My post was meant to be really general, as in a "Hmm. What kinds of things will make trans people, especially those who might not pass to everyone, more in to making porn for HUMP!?"
I know, I know, people see what they see. I said that. I also think it is natural to classify things and to make assumptions about what one is seeing. It's not bad to be wrong, and it doesn't mean you're a bad person. I wasn't trying to make that kind of a statement. If you think I was doing some militant "call out" or something, you totally missed the point.
I'm disappointed in how emphatically defensive a lot of these posts are. Especially if trans/genderqueer is new to you, don't you think it'd be more appropriate to keep an open mind and be more humble? I get it that you might have thought to have seen something different and felt attacked by my comments. But I think that being defensive closes you off to absorbing new things and challenging yourselves. In good ways.
Honestly, in all, with my comments, I'm just trying to encourage positive growth for all of us as a community.
<3 Mateo
40
@39:
I know it sucks to have to educated the mainstream (I think the term 'opressor' might be an overstatement here). But it can also be offensive to be approached by a gender normative individual and asked 'what are your pronouns?' Educating the masses is painful and irritating and not always something I have felt like doing in my 18 years of being an out gay man -- but this education makes acceptance and understanding possible. Things are better than they used to be: Because we've reached out, not because we've stayed offended or expected people to intuitively understand something that runs contrary to their experience, biological urges, and ideals.
I think a sad thing that happens on Slog and elsewhere is when liberals/radicals/'the other' attack each other, instead of directing our energies outwards. I'm not saying we need consensus or a shared message, but infighting and unreasonable expectations don't help anyone.
I'm a little overtired, so I hope this makes sense. I think the difficulty for many of us is how varied trans and genderqueer identities are. It's not possible to know the right terms and behaviors to use for the community as a whole. This forces us to take each person as an individual (which is awesome) but also makes it very difficult to avoid offense in online forums when speaking about the collective.
"There's a little thing called: it's fucked up for the oppressed to have to educate the oppressor, so for someone to demand that I explain my gender identity and body to them so they can better understand me is outrageous. "
I know it sucks to have to educated the mainstream (I think the term 'opressor' might be an overstatement here). But it can also be offensive to be approached by a gender normative individual and asked 'what are your pronouns?' Educating the masses is painful and irritating and not always something I have felt like doing in my 18 years of being an out gay man -- but this education makes acceptance and understanding possible. Things are better than they used to be: Because we've reached out, not because we've stayed offended or expected people to intuitively understand something that runs contrary to their experience, biological urges, and ideals.
I think a sad thing that happens on Slog and elsewhere is when liberals/radicals/'the other' attack each other, instead of directing our energies outwards. I'm not saying we need consensus or a shared message, but infighting and unreasonable expectations don't help anyone.
I'm a little overtired, so I hope this makes sense. I think the difficulty for many of us is how varied trans and genderqueer identities are. It's not possible to know the right terms and behaviors to use for the community as a whole. This forces us to take each person as an individual (which is awesome) but also makes it very difficult to avoid offense in online forums when speaking about the collective.
42
Kaliann & Ohthetrees, thank you for saying what I am unable to coherently type. Perfectly expressed.
43
@findingjester
your entire point #1 does not resonate with me. I don't know what I said that made you think I was that uninformed.
I can understand your point about the responsibility to be
political - that is my only criticism of my own stance as well. I
have no interest in weighing my agenda across the backs
of individuals. I do have interest in judging and criticizing,
but certainly not policing, the identity of others that I am speaking of here. also, when you refer to "my" community, you are overlooking the fact that I am and have been part of yours...
I'm 30, and have been in seattle from texas for 8 yrs. when I got here, I was delighted to have the support and possibility to express my gender ID, which was looked upon with disgust in my home state. I have primarily identified as third-gendered, trans, neither, both. in our gender-binary culture, I am perceived as and pass as male rather easily. so this puts me in a privileged position, as far as comfortability with my body and appearance goes. if I were shorter and had large breasts, I may have chosen to opt
for surgery and T. by the way, I still ID as fag as well. but
I separate that into my sexuality, dividing it from my gender.
in the last couple of years, I have realized more deeply just
how much of a choice gender is, and also how few positive
descriptors there are to describe a woman. in my opinion, the status of women in this society is total shit. so, I am making the deliberate choice to return to and consciously maintain my female identity, given that this is a choice that is
comfortable to me.
please note the last sentence there... I realize that there are
many out there for whom this would not be a comfortable choice. my questioning is directed, yes primarily at the dykes because that's where I am perceiving this phenomenon occurring, to the many who I suspect are like me. I am bringing up the point as an informed foot soldier in the whole shebang, yall.
I am a feminist. as I know you all are. and I request that you consider this: consider that you could maintain your female ID and be a part of redefining and bolstering what it means to be female to the world. yes this is a political choice and I would never criticize anyone for not making it. but I would respect someone who did (ahem). it's not an easy choice for me to enact. but I'll be damned if I let anyone assume I'm male anymore. I am just one part of what women look like.
More...
your entire point #1 does not resonate with me. I don't know what I said that made you think I was that uninformed.
I can understand your point about the responsibility to be
political - that is my only criticism of my own stance as well. I
have no interest in weighing my agenda across the backs
of individuals. I do have interest in judging and criticizing,
but certainly not policing, the identity of others that I am speaking of here. also, when you refer to "my" community, you are overlooking the fact that I am and have been part of yours...
I'm 30, and have been in seattle from texas for 8 yrs. when I got here, I was delighted to have the support and possibility to express my gender ID, which was looked upon with disgust in my home state. I have primarily identified as third-gendered, trans, neither, both. in our gender-binary culture, I am perceived as and pass as male rather easily. so this puts me in a privileged position, as far as comfortability with my body and appearance goes. if I were shorter and had large breasts, I may have chosen to opt
for surgery and T. by the way, I still ID as fag as well. but
I separate that into my sexuality, dividing it from my gender.
in the last couple of years, I have realized more deeply just
how much of a choice gender is, and also how few positive
descriptors there are to describe a woman. in my opinion, the status of women in this society is total shit. so, I am making the deliberate choice to return to and consciously maintain my female identity, given that this is a choice that is
comfortable to me.
please note the last sentence there... I realize that there are
many out there for whom this would not be a comfortable choice. my questioning is directed, yes primarily at the dykes because that's where I am perceiving this phenomenon occurring, to the many who I suspect are like me. I am bringing up the point as an informed foot soldier in the whole shebang, yall.
I am a feminist. as I know you all are. and I request that you consider this: consider that you could maintain your female ID and be a part of redefining and bolstering what it means to be female to the world. yes this is a political choice and I would never criticize anyone for not making it. but I would respect someone who did (ahem). it's not an easy choice for me to enact. but I'll be damned if I let anyone assume I'm male anymore. I am just one part of what women look like.
44
@40 The issue is that Mateo Valentino, Randy Sprinkle, and myself included a cover letter explaining ATLEAST to those who work at The Stranger ie. Dan Savage what our identities are, what are pronouns are, and that there are 2 trans actors in Donut.
This was our effort to preemptively avoid this issue.
Sure, may people who see Donut will make all kinds of assumptions, we were prepared for that. In light of this we wanted to avoid The Stranger itself from mis-representing us. This info was available and was pushed aside, now Dan Savage has made an assumption that could have been avoided, our director has done more work to inform, and he has amended his statements. I appreciate that.
The thing is: it could have been avoided, and the columnist could have written the truth, because we are willing to educate and make clear what it is we are doing and who we are.
I am not offended, just disappointed in Dan Savage and The Stranger for not reading our included information that would have avoided all of this.
However, it's gotten people talking about gender and assumptions.
That's the porn I want to make, so I guess it's working.
This was our effort to preemptively avoid this issue.
Sure, may people who see Donut will make all kinds of assumptions, we were prepared for that. In light of this we wanted to avoid The Stranger itself from mis-representing us. This info was available and was pushed aside, now Dan Savage has made an assumption that could have been avoided, our director has done more work to inform, and he has amended his statements. I appreciate that.
The thing is: it could have been avoided, and the columnist could have written the truth, because we are willing to educate and make clear what it is we are doing and who we are.
I am not offended, just disappointed in Dan Savage and The Stranger for not reading our included information that would have avoided all of this.
However, it's gotten people talking about gender and assumptions.
That's the porn I want to make, so I guess it's working.
45
pshaw. ya'll look like lesbians and donuts, stop getting upset when people call you lesbian donut eaters. just deal with it. people are not oppressing you.
don't make me pull out the "if you were put in jail would you be placed in the mens or womens section" argument killing question to define your gender.
don't make me pull out the "if you were put in jail would you be placed in the mens or womens section" argument killing question to define your gender.
47
Oliver: I didn't see the releases, or review them. All I saw -- before HUMP!, during HUMP! -- were the videos themselves.
48
I understand, Dan, I am just disappointed that they didn't make it to you. We added them quite deliberately so this wouldn't happen. I think it would help if there was some kind of system in place to inform you and others that put on Hump of these sorts of things before blunders are made. This would be a great step towards better inclusiveness in Hump 2012.
I want to thank you though for taking time to amend your original post and letting Mateo's words be read. I know you didn't mean to make a hurtful assumption, but now I am having to deal with people like number 45 up there who are spewing some pretty ridiculous and transphobic rhetoric.
I understand people are challenged by trans people and our lives and bodies, as a trans activist I am interested in educating and giving a lot of room for people to grow in their understanding. I am also glad that this has brought awareness that there should be better inclusiveness in nest year's submissions. There's always gotta be the guinea pigs.
I also, respectfully, ask you to challenge your assumptions, you're a person who people listen to and respect. Many seek advice from you and have garnered self worth through your "It Gets Better Project". You've also said some things trans people have not been happy with. Many have expressed little faith in your ability to support our community. This is counter productive to the good work I see you trying to do. Help us trans folks, Dan, by working on how you see us and how you ultimately portray us in your publications.
I want to thank you though for taking time to amend your original post and letting Mateo's words be read. I know you didn't mean to make a hurtful assumption, but now I am having to deal with people like number 45 up there who are spewing some pretty ridiculous and transphobic rhetoric.
I understand people are challenged by trans people and our lives and bodies, as a trans activist I am interested in educating and giving a lot of room for people to grow in their understanding. I am also glad that this has brought awareness that there should be better inclusiveness in nest year's submissions. There's always gotta be the guinea pigs.
I also, respectfully, ask you to challenge your assumptions, you're a person who people listen to and respect. Many seek advice from you and have garnered self worth through your "It Gets Better Project". You've also said some things trans people have not been happy with. Many have expressed little faith in your ability to support our community. This is counter productive to the good work I see you trying to do. Help us trans folks, Dan, by working on how you see us and how you ultimately portray us in your publications.
49
For fucks sake oliver it's a fucking porn contest. Not everything has to be about educating people about trans issues. Make your own trans porn contest if you're so disappointed in Hump. You're making a big deal out of nothing.
50
It may well be appropriate to make the distinctions that are drawn and re-drawn here. What I can't get is the resistance to defining terms. Terms are thrown around and clearly newly-minted and yet there is anger and resentment if I haven't read a text - a particular(!) text - on that topic.
It doesn't have to be that difficult. Keep working on the new terms that feel just right, but the anger, the lecture, the condescension is not helpful. (You need only accept my lecture if you wanna. And you know you wanna.)
It doesn't have to be that difficult. Keep working on the new terms that feel just right, but the anger, the lecture, the condescension is not helpful. (You need only accept my lecture if you wanna. And you know you wanna.)
51
And... if I may say so...
If not for my "blunder," Oliver, no one who attended HUMP! would have ever learned that you and your co-star are trans. Everyone who saw your film assumed you were lesbians. Now they know you're not. My blunder made it possible for you to blow/open some people's minds, taught us all a lesson about making assumptions, etc.
You're welcome.
If not for my "blunder," Oliver, no one who attended HUMP! would have ever learned that you and your co-star are trans. Everyone who saw your film assumed you were lesbians. Now they know you're not. My blunder made it possible for you to blow/open some people's minds, taught us all a lesson about making assumptions, etc.
You're welcome.
52
@ 22 and 24
Making assumptions, you both assumed I'm not a transman myself, which I am. And I hate the word tranny, so thanks for that too, 22.
And 24, I was standing up for us both, but I guess you missed that.
Making assumptions, you both assumed I'm not a transman myself, which I am. And I hate the word tranny, so thanks for that too, 22.
And 24, I was standing up for us both, but I guess you missed that.
55
@ dakoneko: i originally mis-typed the number referring to you.
Also, our porn wasn't about trans issues or educating people. It's about donuts.
Also, our porn wasn't about trans issues or educating people. It's about donuts.
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