Slog Comments
Mark Driscoll, Mars Hill Church, and The Merchant of Venice
4
@2: "Critics are useful unless you're a lemming."
What is a "critic" to a religious prophet? Who are you pissants to argue with the word of God?
What is a "critic" to a religious prophet? Who are you pissants to argue with the word of God?
5
MLK, Jr. was a critic. There are monuments to him, and, I hear, some county even named itself after him.
7
The prophets themselves were all critics. Elijah and Jerimiah and all those guys. Bitch bitch bitch, scold scold scold scold. Doom and gloom on you all. That's all the Biblical prophets right there in a nutshell. That plus drooling and hearing voices and running around buck naked in the streets howling.
8
"....no earthly power can come between a person and God. That's the principle saints and martyrs died for, wasn't it? It's what Christ (if we are to believe the Bible) died for—to demonstrate that the state (Rome) and the self-anointed religious class (the Pharisees) were not the ultimate arbiters between individuals and the divine."
Hmmm. You need take a little spin through the Reformation and see how high the bodies got buried over "justification."
Discoll is doing exactly what the early Catholic church did. I wonder if he realizes that.
Helluva story, Brendon.
Hmmm. You need take a little spin through the Reformation and see how high the bodies got buried over "justification."
Discoll is doing exactly what the early Catholic church did. I wonder if he realizes that.
Helluva story, Brendon.
9
@5 And monuments to all sorts of other critics who took on hypocrisy and injustice. What is Driscoll saying? He's living life expecting monuments to him to appear in his wake?
11
Didn't Dan's restrictions for private conduct include children, animals, and dead people. Oh. I guess that wouldn't work for christians.
12
I mean, the Calvinism (predestination, specifically) Driscoll follows states that the rich are favored by God, and the poor, less so. If Driscoll is successful, he is Godly and his wealth justifies all his actions and beliefs.
13
Between this, and your series on the cocaine trade, I'm becoming more and more convinced that you should write ALL of the feature articles in the Stranger, Brendan. Exceedingly well done.
15
Mark, Mark, Mark it is called critical thinking. I know it doesn't happen as often as is should. Still you should know your Bible well enough to remember that it says to take all thoughts captive to Christ not Mark or Mars Hill. Now that Jesus guy went and pissed off the temple authorities and religious leaders of his day by criticizing them.
16
This cult vs. faith focus of the article misses the point. Mars Hill is popular PRECISELY because it has a rigid, documented code and hierarchy.
It attracts a very large group of people who WANT to be told what to do, how to live, and have their behavior monitored and measured by the group.
It's not a bug, it's a feature.
It attracts a very large group of people who WANT to be told what to do, how to live, and have their behavior monitored and measured by the group.
It's not a bug, it's a feature.
17
@16: Absolutely true, though one difference is that Mars Hill has all the "hip" counterculture accoutrements to confuse people who believe it's anything but an authoritarian sect.
"How could this guy hate gays and convince his wife to be submissive and pop out Christian soldiers? He listens to Against All Authority, wears sweet kicks and owns a tattoo shop!"
"How could this guy hate gays and convince his wife to be submissive and pop out Christian soldiers? He listens to Against All Authority, wears sweet kicks and owns a tattoo shop!"
21
I always thought Mars Hill was a silly church, designed for silly people who's idea of spirituality is to wave their hands in the air and sob to bad music, and take advice from a ridiculous man who's idea of theology is a combination of olde timey gospel and 21st century high camp.
But yesterday afternoon, while in Bellevue on business, I saw the Bellevue Mars Hill "Campus", adjacent to the old Safeway, and the world changed for me. Mars Hill is the perfect church for downtown Bellevue, which is as vapid and banal as anything you are going to find west of West Omaha.
But yesterday afternoon, while in Bellevue on business, I saw the Bellevue Mars Hill "Campus", adjacent to the old Safeway, and the world changed for me. Mars Hill is the perfect church for downtown Bellevue, which is as vapid and banal as anything you are going to find west of West Omaha.
23
Brendan, since you didn't ask me about my religious preference I don't expect you to engage me when I question what exactly your deep agnosticism means, but here's hoping you don't mind too much my just putting this out there. It's been my experience that people that call themselves agnostics are generally a flavor of atheist that either doesn't realize, or doesn't want to admit it. If you don't know whether or not god exists, if you don't think it's a question we can ever answer with certainty, then it stands to reason you live your life not actively believing god exists, which makes you an atheist (specifically a weak or negative atheist depending on the term you prefer). You may certainly still entertain the possibility that god might exist, just like I do, but that doesn't stop one from being an atheist. An invisible dragon might be standing beside you, and you can allow for that possibility, but unless you live your life actually believing that invisible dragon exists, you are an a-invisible-dragon-ist, just like I think you may be an atheist, an agnostic atheist, like myself.
24
"No one ever made a monument to a critic."
So, Pastor Mark, is that what you're doing this for? And here I thought Pride was one of them there deadly sins.
So, Pastor Mark, is that what you're doing this for? And here I thought Pride was one of them there deadly sins.
26
The Mencken Memorial Fountain is a testament to Mencken's great achievement and also associates Mencken with Baltimore. from americanwriters.org
"To sum up:
1. The cosmos is a gigantic fly-wheel making 10,000 revolution a minute.
2. Man is a sick fly taking a dizzy ride on it.
3. Religion is the theory that the wheel was designed and set spinning to give him a ride."
from Prejudices: Third Series Vol. 3
"To sum up:
1. The cosmos is a gigantic fly-wheel making 10,000 revolution a minute.
2. Man is a sick fly taking a dizzy ride on it.
3. Religion is the theory that the wheel was designed and set spinning to give him a ride."
from Prejudices: Third Series Vol. 3
28
@21 Because I boycott Bel/Lincoln Square it was months before I noticed that "church" had opened there, even tho I work 2 blocks away. They used to run services multiple times a day all week, but I think they only have services on Sunday now. Since most people in downtown Bellevue during the week are from Seattle, they probably weren't getting a lot of folks showing up for worship during lunch, weekends are a better option to draw in the white conservative Eastside crowd. I've thought about stopping in to see what they are up to and what types of people show up.
However, I don't know why you think that Bellevue is the perfect place for them. I thought their whole schtick was the hipster/alternative Christer vibe. That IS NOT Eastside.
However, I don't know why you think that Bellevue is the perfect place for them. I thought their whole schtick was the hipster/alternative Christer vibe. That IS NOT Eastside.
29
I was wondering what "deeply agnostic" meant too. That sounds about like "dazzlingly beige" to me.
Also, the notion of "sinning through questioning" might be the most preposterous thing I've ever heard. Not to mention cavalierly disrespectful to humanity in general and the questioner specifically.
Also, the notion of "sinning through questioning" might be the most preposterous thing I've ever heard. Not to mention cavalierly disrespectful to humanity in general and the questioner specifically.
30
Thomas Paine was critic, Guy fawkes was a critic, Martin Luther was a critic, to name only three. The list of world-changing critics who have monuments is quite large. Driscoll's lack of education is apparent.
33
I saw a photo of Mark Driscoll wearing a Ramones t-shirt and the mental image that popped into my head was Joey, DeeDee, and Marky curbstomping his ass. Johnny would probably agree with half of his bullshit, though.
34
Isn't a monument pretty much a graven image? I'm not sure godly people should be using those as an index of greatness...
36
mars hill STARTED as the punk/alt/indie stopping grounds for young christians who wanted to go somewhere they wouldn't be looked sideways at for their tattoos. but it's gotten far more mainstream/bro/yuppie, whatever you feel like calling it, as it's grown. much like many of the neighborhoods they have campuses in.
I attended a few times in the U-district and realized quickly the main reason I'd be attending would be to 1) be in a group of people nearly Exactly Like Me and 2) look! that guy from the local band plays in the worship team!
considering that a lot of the MH group from the beginning had ties to the sxe hardcore and party-line punk, it's not terribly surprising they were looking for a figurehead to tell them exactly what they were and weren't allowed to think and do.
I attended a few times in the U-district and realized quickly the main reason I'd be attending would be to 1) be in a group of people nearly Exactly Like Me and 2) look! that guy from the local band plays in the worship team!
considering that a lot of the MH group from the beginning had ties to the sxe hardcore and party-line punk, it's not terribly surprising they were looking for a figurehead to tell them exactly what they were and weren't allowed to think and do.
37
@23 - personally, I describe myself as a member of The Church of the Militant Agnostic: "We Don't Know, and You Don't Either!"
38
I'm browsing the Mars Hill: Downtown Seattle campus website. I recommend taking a look. It's very slick and hip. I'm trying to load the Mars Hill Church music player, but it's hung up, which is probably for the best, because who knows what might happen if some modern-day MxPx were to blast from my speakers. I might get sucked in. I'm pretty gullible.
On the "what to expect" page, I am told that at worship, there are earplugs in the back should I need them: "Mars Hill music is loud, mostly rock and roll, and always about Jesus."
I don't have any earplugs, and it's pretty late at night, so I guess it's a good thing that the music player doesn't work on the site if it's gonna rock that hard, but if anyone else wants to try, here it is: http://downtownseattle.marshill.com/newh…
On the "what to expect" page, I am told that at worship, there are earplugs in the back should I need them: "Mars Hill music is loud, mostly rock and roll, and always about Jesus."
I don't have any earplugs, and it's pretty late at night, so I guess it's a good thing that the music player doesn't work on the site if it's gonna rock that hard, but if anyone else wants to try, here it is: http://downtownseattle.marshill.com/newh…
39
Agnostics are persons without faith. You have to have faith to be an atheist. Deeply agnostic means you are quite sure you have no faith.
40
The Pastor's statement isn't even true. There's a monument to a critic of the Catholic Church in Rome. His name was Giordano Bruno, and he was a freethinker in the time when such people were burned at the stake (and he was in 1600). His statue even faces the Vatican, in defiance of the very people who killed him.
41
I am a former Pastor, son of a Pastor, and Grandson of a Pastor in a fundamentalist church, a church which subscribes to many of the Misogynistic practices enjoyed by the “men” of Mars Hill.My former church, like Mars Hill, also practiced the art of destroying people in their congregations who don’t submit to the absolute authority of the church Elders by performing the public rituals of humiliation which serve to enhance the power the elders have over the lives of other people. The “works” based religiosity practiced by Mark Driscoll and his followers is not original and follows a trend started by weak men centuries ago who need control…control over women, and control over the people around them. I take a personal interest in watching Mr. Driscoll’s progression in his personal dynasty because I have seen the damage his cult has done to one family very close to me. His message to one young woman I know was to drop out of nursing school and care for her home and have lots of children. Though she completed school at the urging of her mother, she has chosen to pursue the Mars Hill ideal of having lots of children, not working and forcing her husband to be a “leader” and go make enough money to support the family without her income. We dont live in that culture anymore where one income can support large families. Mr. Driscoll has yet to explain how this part is supposed to work. He will certainly have an answer to all this and the other critiques of his cult. He always does. Mr. Driscoll also has a group of cult followers who are assigned to go on-line and respond to posts about his cult in very scripted answers. The extent of his organizational response is frightening. As a former theologian, and still a follower of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, I see the Driscoll cult for what is is…”The People of the Lie”.. The majority of the members are certainly, well-intentioned Christians, but the leadership are representatives of a power we are to fear. Dont’ underestimate his power to harm and destroy families. Jim Jones, David Koresh and many others before them were dismissed as freaks and not addressed until it was too late for their cult followers. Mark Driscoll is not a man of God and does not represent Christianity.
More...
42
How to women manage to sit through these services without puking until their intestines come out of their mouths?
43
So very glad to live in a city that has journalists that ask questions. And have 25 more questions ready. :) That's called learning.. not sinning.
44
If you enjoyed the Screwtape Letters with me, last weekend, you'd also appreciate Mars Hill.
Mark is not God/Jesus, and does not claim to be. Read the Bible for yourself!!
If you are looking for good, solid, bible based and Christ centered NON-DENOMINATIONAL Christian instruction and fellowship, and can sit thru at least 3 messages TO GET SOME PERSPECTIVE for yourself, you might appreciate what Mars Hill has to offer...
Mark is not God/Jesus, and does not claim to be. Read the Bible for yourself!!
If you are looking for good, solid, bible based and Christ centered NON-DENOMINATIONAL Christian instruction and fellowship, and can sit thru at least 3 messages TO GET SOME PERSPECTIVE for yourself, you might appreciate what Mars Hill has to offer...
45
"Now the Bereans were of more noble character...for they examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true." (or Mark Driscoll, as the case may be) re: Acts 17:11
47
Love your work. I am just getting around to reading your stuff since Salon.com posted the article about child molestation and SGM...
As an ex-mormon, I can help but be surprised about how similar the mechanics of the 'Martians' is to the lds. Centralized control by an oligarchy. No questions allowed dogma. No criticism of the leadership, even if they are wrong. Taking 'misogyny' to new heights since 1830. Complete failure to recognize personal boundaries. Inappropriate authority and leadership positions given to young men (lds missionaries, called Elders, are supposed to 'counsel' other members, even though they are as young as 18), a megalomaniacal/charismatic founder, etc.
The only thing the Martians are missing is buried gold plates, an Urimm and Thummin, a seer stone in a hat and polygamy...
It sounds as though Mark Driscoll is beginning to consider himself as having a direct line to god, i.e.; that he is a 'prophet.' Thomas S. Monson, (the current 'prophet'/president of the lds), would be proud; except the lds would want to stomp the Martians as they think they are the one true church...
Cults, generally, die when their charismatic leaders die or people lose faith in the leader (see, Church Universal & Triumphant, shelter phase). So, we can be encouraged the Martians will go away when Driscoll is no longer involved.
As an ex-mormon, I can help but be surprised about how similar the mechanics of the 'Martians' is to the lds. Centralized control by an oligarchy. No questions allowed dogma. No criticism of the leadership, even if they are wrong. Taking 'misogyny' to new heights since 1830. Complete failure to recognize personal boundaries. Inappropriate authority and leadership positions given to young men (lds missionaries, called Elders, are supposed to 'counsel' other members, even though they are as young as 18), a megalomaniacal/charismatic founder, etc.
The only thing the Martians are missing is buried gold plates, an Urimm and Thummin, a seer stone in a hat and polygamy...
It sounds as though Mark Driscoll is beginning to consider himself as having a direct line to god, i.e.; that he is a 'prophet.' Thomas S. Monson, (the current 'prophet'/president of the lds), would be proud; except the lds would want to stomp the Martians as they think they are the one true church...
Cults, generally, die when their charismatic leaders die or people lose faith in the leader (see, Church Universal & Triumphant, shelter phase). So, we can be encouraged the Martians will go away when Driscoll is no longer involved.
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