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Fnarf 1
So he went into a gay bar for the first time, and ten minutes later he's naked? I don't think it's the gays he's afraid of, it's himself.
Posted by Fnarf on February 21, 2012 at 4:56 PM · Report this
dlauri 2
LOL @ 1. Next SL Letter of the Day: Gee, thanks, Dan -- Yesterday I dragged my husband to a gay bar, and today he came out.
Posted by dlauri on February 21, 2012 at 5:00 PM · Report this
Zebes 3
Note to self: use "fuckriot" more frequently in day to day conversation.
Posted by Zebes on February 21, 2012 at 5:06 PM · Report this
Sargon Bighorn 4
What Gay bar in a bastion of conservative heterosexuality is going to allow people to walk around with just a tie? Seattle does not allow that. This is fake.
Posted by Sargon Bighorn on February 21, 2012 at 5:16 PM · Report this
dangerousgift 5
pics or it didn't happened
Posted by dangerousgift on February 21, 2012 at 5:16 PM · Report this
dangerousgift 6
*happen. (I should take that edit screen more seriously)
Posted by dangerousgift on February 21, 2012 at 5:16 PM · Report this
I'm guessing the 'wearing only a tie' was 'wearing only a tie from the waist up'.
Posted by Sathya on February 21, 2012 at 5:17 PM · Report this
seandr 8
Would've been even more fun with a fuckriot.
Posted by seandr on February 21, 2012 at 5:19 PM · Report this
anarchy burger 9
hey, no fair not sharing the pics!
Posted by anarchy burger on February 21, 2012 at 5:23 PM · Report this
I also clamor for pics.
Posted by sahara29 on February 21, 2012 at 5:24 PM · Report this
AmyC 11
the most cogent response to the hetero guy's fear of gay-friendly places i've ever seen. well done, dan.
Posted by AmyC on February 21, 2012 at 5:32 PM · Report this
I'm glad the ending of the story was that he went in after all and the sky didn't fall on him. (Nor did he get assraped.) So many of the things we fear turn out to be nothing in the end, eh?
Posted by MLM on February 21, 2012 at 5:48 PM · Report this
Is it possible that he might just be uncomfortable because he feels like he might say something wrong or put his foot in his mouth or something? Isn't it normal to feel uncomfortable when exposed to a "culture" that you haven't had previous exposure to? I think that it happens and I think people should be forgiving about it as "community" does have a bit of an exclusive club thing. Also, for someone with limited exposure, observing transgender people, gay or lesbian couples, people who dress up, tattoos, etc. etc. can be very fascinating and some people might feel guitly or uncomfortable about that. Wouldn't that be infact an innocent homophobia? Could part of this homophobia be a result of a perception there is a potential for that they could be judge harshly for making a social mistake? In fact I would have to admit that I feel the same way in a catholic church as I did at my first gay/lesbian-oriented event. Can you really fault an introverted person for being timid? Isn't pansy assed coward a little harsh?
Posted by Lady of Eagle Lake on February 21, 2012 at 5:54 PM · Report this
loopback 14
You know what? being uncomfortable is one thing. "Not sure you want to go in" is another.

I recently was invited, very graciously, to take part in an incredibly important cultural event for a culture which was not only not mine (Hi2U straight white european male), but was one that had been treated mighty shittily by white people for a long ass time.

I went, and I was nervous as hell, and worried I might say or do something that would be a social faux pas in that environment. And you know what I did? It's hard to believe, but I shut my mouth, I listened, and I let things be about everyone else, and not about me or my experience. I learned a lot, and it was an experience I'm going to remember for a very long time, not least because it kicked me in the cultural crotch and pointed out that there are entire communities that live & breathe right next to me, every day, and I know literally nothing about them. And I should probably fix that, if I can.

You can feel as uncomfortable as you want for being timid or introverted or unsure of yourself in cultural waters that aren't your own. That doesn't excuse you from the choice of showing up, and choosing not to show up because "it's weird and I won't know how to act" is, in fact, an act of cowardice. It's letting fear rule your life.
Posted by loopback on February 21, 2012 at 6:03 PM · Report this
There's another possibility. I was nervous the first time I went into a gay bar because I wondered if maybe I wouldn't be welcome. I'm sure every bar is different, but I just thought it wasn't my space and I felt like an intruder. My band of straight-guys-and-lady was scheduled to play, and the people were actually very friendly and welcoming. It turned out to be one of my most fun gigs ever. Live and learn.
Posted by pox on February 21, 2012 at 6:23 PM · Report this
Corylea 16
In tragic bastions of conservative heterosexuality, the local gay bar is often the ONLY place where gay people can go without having straight people plaster heterosexual expectations all over them. When the letter began, I thought the guy was uncomfortable about the idea of being a straight person invading gay space, which would be a sensitive and realistic fear.
Posted by Corylea on February 21, 2012 at 6:24 PM · Report this
Actually, this guy sounds all too familiar to me, because in my closeted high-school and college days I was PETRIFIED to go into a gay bar. All I knew about them came from some hardcore gay porn (Drummer magazine and the like) I'd scored on the sly, and so I had about the same "fuckriot" vision as the LW's boyfriend.

Imagine my shock, some time later, when I actually ventured inside, and found... a bar. With people drinking, listening to the jukebox, and socializing. In many ways, it was quite a letdown - but mostly a huge relief that the horrible horrible gay people I'd been so afraid of were... just people.
Posted by Pope Buck I on February 21, 2012 at 6:28 PM · Report this
@14, a little shading usually paints a more accurate picture. "Cowardice" is a bit strong. I'd call it timidity.
Posted by gloomy gus on February 21, 2012 at 6:32 PM · Report this
nocutename 19
People have been sharing great insights/stories.
I think one of the best things a person who is generally from a privileged group can do is to go someplace where she is not the majority. Race, gender, sexual orientation, religion, ethnicity--you name it. There is no substitute for seeing a normally marginalized group in the position of power and authority, to get a real sense of what the beauties of that group might be; conversely, nothing helps give a sense of humility and empathy like suddenly being in the position of a minority. It's a valuable experience, and if we could all summon the courage to do it and to put ourselves in situations where we feel uncomfortable because we don't know the culture, don't know the "rules," and are afraid of not fitting in (or being treated as if we *do* "fit in"), our world might be a lot better off.

And if you're already marginalized but have built a community within which you represent the norm, try stepping into a community just that much more marginalized, whose members can't choose to "blend in" if they want.

So he walked inside that scary, scary gay bar--and now he's going back next week! Bravo.
Posted by nocutename on February 21, 2012 at 7:01 PM · Report this
I'm straight, but I *love* going to gay bars. Do you know how many straight women go to gay bars, especially to dance? Tons. And most straight guys won't set foot in them, for fear of being misconstrued as gay. So it's just me, a bunch of gay guys, and some liquored up women grinding on each other. It's more beautiful than you can possibly imagine - kind of like watching a cheetah unexpectedly surrounded by a bunch of gazelles.

Once in awhile, I'll get hit on by a dude. So what? I take it as a compliment.
Posted by jj41243 on February 21, 2012 at 7:03 PM · Report this
venomlash 21
I'm a completely heterosexual male, and my first reaction was "what, you didn't post the pics". POAST TEH PIKCSZ.
Posted by venomlash on February 21, 2012 at 7:17 PM · Report this
jj41243: exactly. As a straight woman, I have always found gay bars to be awesome. So great to feel free to get all dirty on the dance floor! Love, love, love gay bars. Hope teh gays don't mind!
Posted by drcme on February 21, 2012 at 7:19 PM · Report this
21: yes!
Posted by drcme on February 21, 2012 at 7:21 PM · Report this
a fuckriot would have helped this saga, as would the pictures (a-hem, Dan?)

I think that it is critically important that all straight men understand one very important fact: not every gay man wants to fuck you.

Good talk, Russ.
Posted by catballou on February 21, 2012 at 7:31 PM · Report this
Straight female and I was terrified when I went to my first gay bar (and my first Kink Munch). For the same reason as an earlier poster: I wasn't sure I'd be welcome, thought I might be intruding.

There was a drag show that night. It was awesome.
Posted by blah on February 21, 2012 at 7:41 PM · Report this
Figures. Gay man here can't find a gay bar within 50 miles but straights who are afraid of 'em have 'em to loiter outside of.
Posted by Villain42 on February 21, 2012 at 7:45 PM · Report this
In my experience with my BF, what he is afraid of is what women deal with all the time. I think straight men are just so used to being the aggressors that when that unwanted predatory sexual energy is aimed at them they're just unequipped to deal with it. Of course these situations were more intense than your standard night at the local gay bar but I think the fear is the same.
Posted by chi_type on February 21, 2012 at 8:07 PM · Report this
seandr 29
@24: not every gay man wants to fuck you.

True, unless you happen to stumble into a fuckriot.
Posted by seandr on February 21, 2012 at 8:20 PM · Report this
@29, and where, may I ask, are the fickriots when you need one? I could really go for a good fuckriot. But I can say with all confidence that no gay man wants to fuck me.
Posted by catballou on February 21, 2012 at 8:31 PM · Report this
nocutename 31
I sure could use a good fuckriot right about now!
Posted by nocutename on February 21, 2012 at 8:36 PM · Report this
pretty sure my local lesbian fuckriot deteriorated into a knitting circle, but I'll try again next week...
Posted by tal on February 21, 2012 at 8:54 PM · Report this
nocutename 33
yeah: book group . . . fuckriot; book group . . . fuckriot.
Decisions, decisions.
Posted by nocutename on February 21, 2012 at 9:01 PM · Report this
@33, that isn't even a choice. Unless the book club is discussing a literary work about a fuckriot....
Posted by catballou on February 21, 2012 at 9:06 PM · Report this
seandr 35
@30: But I can say with all confidence that no gay man wants to fuck me.

Don't be so sure. In a fuckriot, anything is possible.
Posted by seandr on February 21, 2012 at 9:18 PM · Report this
luke1249 36
okay maybe he is gay...
Posted by luke1249 on February 21, 2012 at 9:36 PM · Report this
No wonder I've been feeling suicidal again lately. The straight people always get all the happy endings. Somebody send me some cyanide.

At the very least, he could have tipped double as a penance.
Posted by vennominon on February 21, 2012 at 9:49 PM · Report this
I'm a straight guy that goes to gay bars with his wife and her gay brothers. I've never been hit on, though one big burly motherfucker (fatherfucker?) did check out my penis at a urinal. I felt flattered.
Posted by j h rahd on February 21, 2012 at 9:56 PM · Report this
nocutename 40
@34: What, haven't you read "The Catcher in the Fuckriot" when you were in high school? What about "Emma at the Fuckriot," or "The Fuckriot on the Floss?" And of course the classic, "Gulliver's Fuckriots."
For god's sake, man (or is it woman?), who could ever forget "The Bridge over the Fuckriot Kwai?" Or those russkies, with their ""Fuckriot and Punishment," or "War and Fuckriots." And I haven't even brought up all the magical realism . . .
Posted by nocutename on February 21, 2012 at 10:40 PM · Report this
@40, now you've made me want to go read "Fuckriot in the Time of Cholera" again. So romantic.
Posted by gloomy gus on February 21, 2012 at 11:45 PM · Report this
venomlash 42
@40, 41: Introductory Fuckriots on Psycho-Analysis by Sigmund Freud. The Divine Fuckriot by Dante. Fuckriots in the Mist by Dian Fossey. Fuckriotonomics by Steven D. Levitt and Stephen J. Dubner. Confessions of a Fuckriot by Yukio Mishima.
Hey, that last one actually has something to do with homosexuality!
Posted by venomlash on February 22, 2012 at 12:17 AM · Report this
Knat 43
The most fun evening I've had in my entire life was had was my first visit to a gay bar. Neighbors, to be exact. I hope to God that I never forget it, and lament all the little details that have already slipped away. Hopefully he had a similar experience.
Posted by Knat on February 22, 2012 at 12:18 AM · Report this

I've coined a term for being the only straight guy at a gay bar/party who ends up making out with several of the straight women later on in the evening: "eye of the storm"
Posted by Doot on February 22, 2012 at 1:55 AM · Report this
saxfanatic 45
Oh please. The guy's uptight because:

a. He knows he needs to spend more time in the gym

b. he's been going to the cut-rate barber for his haircuts

c. he's wearing the same sweatshirt he wears when he hangs out with his straight guy friends

In short, he knows he can't compete and it's bugging him.
Posted by saxfanatic on February 22, 2012 at 2:33 AM · Report this
Voltairine 46
I've coined a term for 44: barf.
Posted by Voltairine on February 22, 2012 at 3:33 AM · Report this
A long time ago my wife and I went to Provinctown to visit with a lesbian couple (they since have broken up :-(. ). We went out line dancing at a club (?), and were one of 2 mixed couples out of ~50 on the floor. There was as much chance of a fuckriot there as at a church polka. In fact the "long term couple" feeling was overwhelming.

The funny part was when we were driving home it wasn't till we were almost in Plymouth that seeing mixed couples got "normal" again.

Posted by Married in MA on February 22, 2012 at 5:22 AM · Report this
Should be Provincetown.
Posted by Married in MA on February 22, 2012 at 5:26 AM · Report this
@30 catballou, @31 nocutename

I've been trying to scare up a fuckriot around here for years. Where have you been? Forget slog happy. It's time for slog fuckriot.
Posted by Mr. J on February 22, 2012 at 5:34 AM · Report this
@37 Mr. V
Please try to behave yourself. If I can stick around then anyone can.
Posted by Mr. J on February 22, 2012 at 5:37 AM · Report this
When I was 21 my boyfriend and I went into a quiet bar in DC in the middle of the afternoon in order to use the phone. We walked to the back where the pay phone was, made the call and walked out. On the sidewalk I said to him, "Well, now I know where at least one gay bar is in this town."

"Huh? What??"

It had been immediately obvious to me, but I guess he was another straight guy who assumed gay bar = fuckriot.
Posted by KCFrance on February 22, 2012 at 5:50 AM · Report this
Vince 52
Note to straight people. Yes, drag bars are enormously entertaining. And yes, gay bars are fun and safe. But please don't drag unwilling people in who aren't polite or respectful when they have a snootfull.
Posted by Vince on February 22, 2012 at 6:23 AM · Report this
Mr J - Well, I might have to stop coming here. It's not Mr Savage's fault - it's just that the perspective of how much toadying we have to do, which doesn't seem so clear anywhere else, makes me want to crawl into a hole and never emerge. Besides, having retired from pursuits amourous, it's not as if I belong here anyway.
Posted by vennominon on February 22, 2012 at 7:18 AM · Report this
nocutename 54
Mr. Ven--I'm sorry if you feel worse as a result of this comment thread. I, for one, would miss you if you stopped coming here.
Posted by nocutename on February 22, 2012 at 7:38 AM · Report this
BrotherBob 55
As a gay guy whose "private, safe place to meet and relax" was invaded and more or less taken over every weekend by young straight couples who "loved the atmosphere" I learned to sympathize with all those foreigners who grew to hate Americans over the decades. I still dont know where to find the balance. I want to be hospitable, but I don't want to be the quaint native.
Posted by BrotherBob on February 22, 2012 at 7:39 AM · Report this
nocutename 56
@55: You raise a good point. I wonder what it was about the atmosphere that those young straight couples liked so much and if they could duplicate it at another bar. Was it something unique to your hangout? Or do you think that it was the "exotic-ness" of being in an "honest-to-goodness *gay* bar" that was the primary appeal? If so, maybe you and the other regulars could be just a tad less hospitable, without being downright rude or hostile-just not quite as welcoming?

As someone who has tried to strike that balance between being seen as something exotic when I mix with a larger more heterogeneous population and the insularity that comes from sticking only with a smaller more homogeneous group, I have a slight understanding of what you're experiencing. Sometimes you just want to relax and be yourself, not put on a show for the curiosity seekers.
Posted by nocutename on February 22, 2012 at 7:46 AM · Report this
@53 Mr. V
You do belong here. You consistently contribute intelligence, wit, and charm to the discussion. That you have decided to sit out the dance for now is totally inconsequential. As for the toadying, I would say that your steady refusal to just let it go is inspiring.
Posted by Mr. J on February 22, 2012 at 7:53 AM · Report this
Fifty-Two-Eighty 58
@53, if you feel the need to "toady-up," I can assure you it only exists between your two ears. I don't toady to anyone, and I get along just fine. Sure, some people here don't like it. Boo fucking hoo. Too bad for them. Grow a fucking spine, stand up for what you believe, and fuck everybody else.
Posted by Fifty-Two-Eighty on February 22, 2012 at 8:52 AM · Report this
@53 Vennomonion,

Sometimes people frequent a place just because they like it the way it is.

Posted by Married in MA on February 22, 2012 at 9:48 AM · Report this
Still no photos?
Posted by PaulBarwick on February 22, 2012 at 10:26 AM · Report this
Gay (male) bars are tons of fun and tend to be very friendly. Lesbian bars are a different story, especially those full of successful and attractive women. The Lexington (famous lesbian bar) is THE snottiest bar in San Francisco. If you're male, they'll literally yell at you. If you're female and not hot, they'll pretend you're not standing there. If you're apparently straight, good luck.
Posted by beccoid on February 22, 2012 at 10:32 AM · Report this
geoz 62
Back when I was a cute young straight man, this would have bothered me too. I went in, but really didnt enjoy that attention. (I go to Applebee's occasionally too, because the people I'm with want to go - so settle down the armchair analysis). Now... I kind of miss the attention. I don't frequent clubs of any kind these days. It's just a different time in life. So it goes.
Posted by geoz on February 22, 2012 at 10:34 AM · Report this
Ophian 63
Yes @13.

We all know that queers can be a bit cliquish. It sounds like this guy was nervous about not knowing the norms and rules, commiting a faux pas. Then he felt guilty because he was worried that his ill-ease made him a hater.

I know I had to scramble for an answer the first time a guy asked if he could "touch" when I had just finished using the urinal. And I suck cock.

Give a het boy a break, and props to the girl-friend.
Posted by Ophian on February 22, 2012 at 10:50 AM · Report this
Ophian 64
And yes @45.

Sort of the inverse of that dance I went to at Smith College: me, my girlfriend, a sprinkle of uneasy looking frat guys, and 300 lesbians.
Posted by Ophian on February 22, 2012 at 10:59 AM · Report this
Most of the bars I go to in the bay area are gay bars. As a straight guy i'm still really easily flustered by dudes hitting on me. But there are way worse things to be in the world than flustered.

the great atmosphere easily outweighs that.
Posted by cpt. tim on February 22, 2012 at 12:25 PM · Report this
Jeez, I made a mental note to check out the full version of this post when I got home because I thought there'd be pics. *Sad*
Posted by Gloria on February 22, 2012 at 12:27 PM · Report this
@61: I've generally gotten the stink eye at the lex before. I wouldn't go just to go to the lex, but I will go with female friends. I've found however that if i'm tweeded and bow-tied up, I don't get dirty looks.

I can't formulate as to why, maybe it doesn't look like i'm some dude on the prowl. (which I am when I'm dressed up, just not for lesbians)
Posted by cpt. tim on February 22, 2012 at 12:28 PM · Report this
I'm a straight dude who like gay culture, but fucking hates bars.

I get my fix from the Opera, Symphony, etc.
Posted by novabossa on February 22, 2012 at 12:28 PM · Report this
Kevin_BGFH 69
(a) "And tell him that gay bars aren't fuckriots." Well, *most* gay bars. I went to a few in Europe that seemed more like bathhouses to me -- but they didn't have shows.

(b) "I think the requests for him to wear less clothing stroked his ego (they definitely stroked mine). As you can see in the one where he was wearing only a tie, he obliged. Here's some pictures, just cause." Dan, you MUST get permission to post the photos, even if you have to crop out his face.
Posted by Kevin_BGFH on February 22, 2012 at 2:54 PM · Report this
undead ayn rand 70
@44: "I've coined a term for being the only straight guy at a gay bar/party who ends up making out with several of the straight women later on in the evening: "eye of the storm""

He's AKA "the reason why they play porn in bars" and "follower of the bridal parties".
Posted by undead ayn rand on February 22, 2012 at 2:59 PM · Report this
Kevin_BGFH 71
I should add that I know a LOT of straight people who do a lot of socializing in gay bars. In San Francisco, at least (is this universal?), the gay bars tend to serve larger, stronger drinks, and have more generous 2-for-1 happy hour time frames. One guy I know, who also works in a gay bar (plus two straight bars), used to socialize in other gay bars in the neighborhood after his happy hour shift was done -- and he always, always, always got laid. He wasn't the creepy straight guy going to a gay bar to prey on lonely girls left by their gay pals. He was the normal, comfortable straight gay hanging with his gay friends who then got lucky when some stranger left his gal pal to hook up.

That said, even the New York Times has written articles about the straight couples who come to the Castro from the Marina for bottomless mimosas on Sunday brunches and then end up shrieking in the gay bars and throwing up everywhere. Not cute.
Posted by Kevin_BGFH on February 22, 2012 at 3:02 PM · Report this
@37, Mr. V, if you've been feeling suicidal lately I hope you will talk with someone about it on the phone or in person. Even if it is not a real plan to do anything about it, those kinds of thoughts or feelings are something to follow up on; analogous to when you have a fever over 102 and it is appropriate to consult a doctor about possible infection. I was having suicidal ideas when I was in a really stressful job last year and sought help. The first therapist I tried was ridiculous and not helpful at all, but the second one I found helped me to sort out what was going on and in particular helped me use cognitive techniques to change my thought patterns and I developed more compassion for myself, which lead to sustained happiness for the most part. If I get down again I will go back to her. Please get some support, because just like we tell the kids, it really can get better.
Posted by Violet415 on February 22, 2012 at 3:57 PM · Report this
I thought I'd feel a little less annoyed by now, but the gratuitous bragging about the unmerited ego stroking is just giving me a serious case of the LMBs.
Posted by vennominon on February 22, 2012 at 5:11 PM · Report this
I came back tonight to see if anyone hd managed to start a fuckriot since last night (I went to bed too early it seems). I am sadly disappointed. After a long dull day at work pretending to earn my paycheck, a fuckriot would have been just the thing. *sigh*

@40, I apparently went to the wrong school. We did read The Scarlet Fuckriot, but it was a substitute, and he was never brought back to sub again.

Mr. J @49, I came late to Slog-I found The Stranger after my crabby ass husband bitched endlessly about me bringing home the City Pages just so I could read Savage Love. Then the wonders of the internets showed me I could read Dan much more frequently than a few times monthly, and discovered all the Sloggy goodness to be found. So I probably missed your earlier efforts to start a good fuckriot. Hopefully it's not too late.

Posted by catballou on February 22, 2012 at 6:06 PM · Report this
gueralinda 75
I'm so bored of Dan writing 100% from the male perspective. As usual, Dan takes the position that ONLY gratifying physical sexual desires counts as being GGG, totally ignoring the fact that LOST has been ignoring his wife's emotional needs for most of the time they've been together. I know Dan either doesn't understand or actively dislikes female sexuality, but the truth of the matter is that women in a long term relationship - for the most part - can NOT get hot and bothered when they are angry or upset with their partner. Some women - perhaps most, including me - can get excited with a stranger for whom they feel nothing, but that same stranger ten years later as a husband has to show love and affection for the woman to get aroused. That is female physiology, and no matter how inconvenient, it isn't subject to change by male consensus. Sorry Dan - keep on demonizing women who don't "put out" at every freaking opportunity, but you are not going to change anything. Women need love, and we are not ever going to be happy about giving unlimited amounts of sex to men who don't show us an iota of affection or appreciation.
Posted by gueralinda on February 22, 2012 at 6:12 PM · Report this
kim in portland 76
@ Mr. Vennominon,

It sounds like you have a case of the blue devils. I do hope they pass soon. If you were near I could beg your company to join me for a dram of Scotch. And together we could wonder about the closing paragraph of Miss Austen's letter to Cassandra Austen from Southhampton, Friday 20- Sunday 22 February 1807. I'll type it here in case you don't have your own copy of Miss Austen's letters.

"I wish You a pleasant party tomorrow & not more than you like of Miss Hatton's neck.- Lady B. must have been a shameless woman if she named H. Hales as within her Husband's reach. It is a piece of impertinence indeed in a Woman to pretend to fix on anyone, as if she supposed it c be only ask & have.- a Widower with 3 children has no right to look higher than his daughter's Governess.- I am forced to be abusive for want of subject, having really nothing to say.- When Martha comes she will supply me with matter; I shall have to tell you how she likes the House & what she thinks of Mary.- You must be very cold today at G- We are cold here. I expect a severe March, a wet April, & a sharp May.--And with this prophecy I must conclude.--
My Love to everbody----Y affec J. Austen"

The next letter is dated Wednesday 15- Friday 17 June 1808. So it seems we are not to know what information Martha was to supply on the subject. Or to know if Miss Austen's weather prophecies came true. Tis a mystery for the imagination.

Take care, sir. Chin up.
Posted by kim in portland on February 22, 2012 at 7:47 PM · Report this
Ms Kim - Many thanks; it's a mood common to the period, with the peril of our current state intensifying everything. Letters that remind me of our horrifically subservient position even now when we're supposedly threatening to destroy civilization as we know it just make the whole thing far more irritating.

I do recall one of the Austenian fictional letters from a young woman telling her friend that she had forged her own Will. I always thought it somewhat cheap of Mr Gilbert to borrow that for Ruddigore as one of Sir Ruthven's daily crimes.
Posted by vennominon on February 22, 2012 at 9:22 PM · Report this
kim in portland 78
Mr. Ven,

That does indeed sound cheap. I'm afraid I've not read any of the fictional letters. Tonight's excerpt was letter 51 of the "Jane Austen's Letters" (Fourth Edition),

Thank you for explaining. You have good reason for your blue devils. I do hope that they will lighten for you. And, I hope to read you again soon.

Kind regards,
Posted by kim in portland on February 22, 2012 at 10:26 PM · Report this
kim in portland 79

Mr. Ven, there are indeed many silly and stupid people in this world. Some evil as well. They need to try to maintain the illusion of dominance. They are terrified and pitiful creatures. Neither you nor I are subservient to them. We women aren't appreciated either. We both know this. So keep your chin up. Stay with us. Continue with the good fight in your honorable way. I will continue as well. Keep a weathered eye out as the tide has turned. The sand they have built upon is eroding.
Posted by kim in portland on February 22, 2012 at 10:38 PM · Report this
Mr V., such desires are not unknown to me (homo sum...). Looking around, one often is confronted with disappointing signals that one (or one's group) is not really welcome, or at best only in a condescending (as someone above put it, 'quaint native') way.

Since reality is complex, there usually are also signs in the opposite direction -- signs one tends to overlook when one's feeling of impeding gloom lead away from them.

Kim's words above are wise and true. No matter how many stupid people there are out there trying to simplify this world into whatever boring version of the Silver City their minds are capable of imagining, the world is and will always me more complex than that. There will always be a place for others, a place for people like you, me, Kim, or Mr. J above.

To every Dies Irae there is a Gaudeamus igitur. Let your presence here remind us of how good a world is that has such people in 't.
Posted by ankylosaur on February 23, 2012 at 4:13 AM · Report this
@74 catballou
It's never too late! Truthfully though my previous efforts consist of my hitting on half a dozen or so sloggers. In this matter we must leave it at "it's the thought that counts."
Posted by Mr. J on February 23, 2012 at 6:01 AM · Report this
Ms Kim is correct. Women have a great deal to lose as well. But my thanks for not calling homophobia a subset of misogyny, which, however well intended, just comes off as another way of silencing.

Just to be clear, this is a familiar script that usually runs more than once during these years. Additionally, I am so deliberate about these things that it would take at least three months to resolve even the most solid intention. My apologies for giving an impression of immediate danger.
Posted by vennominon on February 23, 2012 at 8:10 AM · Report this
@81, 74, et alii,

what exactly is a "fuckriot"? In what way is it different from a Roman orgy?
Posted by ankylosaur on February 23, 2012 at 9:49 AM · Report this
kim in portland 84
Mr. Ven,

I am glad to read that there is no immediate danger. As I do enjoy your comments.

I would regret it most deeply if you thought that our sharing a common enemy was silencing. Our enemy may view us both as lesser beings, but their animosity to us differs. In my case, at least while I remain in my childbearing years, they have a purpose for me in their "Utopia". I think our struggles share some parallels, but one is not a subset of the other. Again, I am sorry for the suffering they cause that leads to this familiar script. I hope you feel better soon.

Best wishes,
Posted by kim in portland on February 23, 2012 at 11:09 AM · Report this
nocutename 85
@83 (ankylosaur):
To be honest, I have no idea whether that is a real thing or not--I could or should check urban dictionary, but for me, that's beside the point.
I just like the word for its own sake. Like "poontang," a word which came up in one of these discussions recently, just seeing it hearing it makes me smile.

However, if I were to define my conception of a fuckriot as distinct from a Roman orgy, I guess it would have to be in the sense of unplanned, spontaneous wild energetic, free-for-all fucking that would break out without warning. Oh, and the slight element of the uncontrollable (possibly verging on potentially violent), or the sense of a group briefly becoming a single entity also pervades it for me. Whereas when I think Roman orgy, I think planned and maybe even orchestrated hedonism.

Both sound like a lot of fun, but saying "fuckriot" is more fun to do!
Posted by nocutename on February 23, 2012 at 11:27 AM · Report this
@85 nocutename
Sounds good to me. It's an evocative word.
Posted by Mr. J on February 23, 2012 at 11:47 AM · Report this
83, 85, & 86-- I am pretty sure a fuckriot would be a lot more vigorous than a regular old Roman orgy. And no one is allowed to wear a toga to a fuckriot, because that would just be silly. I think nocutename is onto something with the unbridled spontanaity, a fuckriot seems a bit like punk rock (good classic punk rock, not the glam pseudo punk shit) with genitals.
Posted by catballou on February 23, 2012 at 7:11 PM · Report this
Mr. Ven, I'm sorryif I've implied that homophobia was only a subset of misogyny. I do think they're hard to untangle, much the way issues of race & class are hard to untangle. Wishing you all the best.
Posted by EricaP on February 23, 2012 at 9:59 PM · Report this
@85, 86, 87 -- indeed, evocative words are the worst for foreigners to grasp; they are based on logical and analogical links with deep roots in the culture, and easy to oversee when you didn't grow up there... (The closest equivalent in Portuguese I can think of is suruba, which to me has more comedic associations than unplanned/spontaneous ones; "surubas" make you want to smile or laugh.)

Etymonline says "poontang" is ultimately from (Creole/Lousiana) French putain 'prostitute.' Funny, I had expected something Malayan or Philippine.
Posted by ankylosaur on February 24, 2012 at 10:03 AM · Report this
Gerald Fnord 90
Now I've got the Electrix Six's "Gay Bar" running through my head:…
..., endless remixes of which FMU were playing years back, as in
(sorry that it's RealAudio, they've got better since).
Posted by Gerald Fnord on February 24, 2012 at 11:15 AM · Report this
Ms Erica - Kind of you. There is a good deal of overlap. I hope someday that you manage to solve your problems at the ballot box.
Posted by vennominon on February 24, 2012 at 5:48 PM · Report this
@91 I'm hoping more for cultural change than for new laws, but thanks for your kind wishes...
Posted by EricaP on February 24, 2012 at 8:43 PM · Report this
You have the numbers to succeed via legislation; we don't.
Posted by vennominon on February 25, 2012 at 1:42 PM · Report this
@93, regardless of our numbers, no legislation can persuade people to take the women in their lives seriously... that requires cultural change.
Posted by EricaP on February 25, 2012 at 3:36 PM · Report this
Gerald Fnord 96
With regard to comment number 94 in this thread, written by one "Sphinx":

At its base: consent is a side-issue to this person---it's which bits touch which that matter. To do otherwise is to privilege Autonomy over Purity, and that's a place where liberals and conservatives differ.

It is because they believe that this world was made by a person with likes and dislikes that (mirabile dictu) are exactly like their own, and that we were made for that person's purposes, and that wrongness is when we act contrary to those.

They further believe that certain types of sexual activities---diverse sexual acts themselves, or types of sexual attention---are _in_themselves_ bad or potentially good. As such, consent doesn't necessarily enter into it (huh huh): male sexual attention to females who do not express their complete lack of desire therefor (and maybe even then) is "natural" and "expectable" and maybe even "good" (if they're Soft on Lust), whereas that attention paid to men is wrong" and "unnatural".

Similarly, at least one Scholastic (Aquinas?) opined that heterosexual rape, though wrong, were not as wrong as masturbation, since the act itself in the former case were not evil in itself (as 'onanism', improperly construed as he did, was) and that a "good" thing might result from it: a child.

Remind you of anyone?

(It gets more complicated: Aquinas held with the 'quickening' theory of ensoulment, and as such would not have trouble with most abortions as 'murder', though he might frown on their contraceptive effect.)
Posted by Gerald Fnord on February 26, 2012 at 10:30 AM · Report this
@95(EricaP), indeed. Mr V, if only numbers counted for legislation, Blacks would still be slaves.
Posted by ankylosaur on February 27, 2012 at 1:42 AM · Report this

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