Slog Comments
SL Letter of the Day: I Get Too Many Letters Like This
3
If there is any single thing more important than compatible sex drives in a healthy lasting relationship, it is good communication skills. Communication is the only way to actually FIX problems. Doing the passive/aggressive dance of body language just doesn't cut it. If you value your marriage, and you value your husband, you have an obligation to tell him the things that bother you and that are interfering with your relationship. Yes, he may be hurt, but he is already being hurt. Get your courage up, and USE YOUR WORDS.
4
Speak to him in male. Find a relaxed moment, maybe on a weekend afternoon, when you're both chilling on the couch, and say "honey, there are some things which are bothering me which I would like to discuss with you. First of all, you sometimes forget to shower. When you don't shower, you get sweaty, and that smells. I like being close to you physically because you get me hot, and when you smell, that interferes with you getting me hot. And speaking of interfering with getting me hot, it really makes me uncomfortable when you kiss me so forcibly. [Douchebag who assaulted me] did that, so it's not your fault, but I don't enjoy it. I DO enjoy [list the ways you like being kissed], so I really want to do that."
It's very blunt, but I've found men prefer bluntness. Men generally like to solve problems. Present him with two problems (lack of showers turns me off, shopvac kissing turns me off) and the solutions (bathe and kiss gently and I'm all yours!), and he will probably go for it.
It's very blunt, but I've found men prefer bluntness. Men generally like to solve problems. Present him with two problems (lack of showers turns me off, shopvac kissing turns me off) and the solutions (bathe and kiss gently and I'm all yours!), and he will probably go for it.
5
"fee fees" -- that's hilarious.
bathing at least once a week though? i'd say at least every other day. swamp ass is no one's friend.
bathing at least once a week though? i'd say at least every other day. swamp ass is no one's friend.
6
I am a frequently shy, frequently unassertive lady and I don't even get how she can be married to a dude who she can't tell to shower. That seems like the most basic prerequisite for marriage! "Do you feel comfortable telling your spouse-to-be that he/she needs to shower? No? No marriage license for you!" And I don't want a partner who won't tell me when I have BO. I mean, no one else is going to do it for me, and I don't want to go through life stinky.
7
Speak up, ILL. Resentment, which you're likely developing, is a relationship strangulator. And, it would be wise to talk about your past and the feelings deep kissings cause you in a neutral location. Away from any sexual expression, he deserves to know about your past. If he is as sweet and sensitive as you say, then finding out that he is causing you distress will be hard on him. He would not want to cause you flash backs, right? And intense B.O. can't be helpful on the job.
Shorter. Talk to him.
Shorter. Talk to him.
9
When the woman not speaking up is the one who wants sex with the low(er)-libido man who is turning her off, it becomes harder to speak up. If he’s barely into it in the first place, then telling him that he’s Doing It Rong could be enough to have him give up entirely.
At least, that’s the fear. It’s not just worrying about his fee-fees, it’s wanting to implement good behavioural strategies and reward good behaviour (sex) by being happy, not punish it by being critical.
The problem is that it’s hard to be happy when he’s Doing It Rong, so you lose anyway.
Action Kate I think has the idea when she says to not bring the tonsil hockey up during sex but at a different, more relaxed time. Showering should be easy to deal with in real time though. “I want to hump your bones, so get your stinky ass in the shower and meet me in the bedroom! Chop chop!”
At least, that’s the fear. It’s not just worrying about his fee-fees, it’s wanting to implement good behavioural strategies and reward good behaviour (sex) by being happy, not punish it by being critical.
The problem is that it’s hard to be happy when he’s Doing It Rong, so you lose anyway.
Action Kate I think has the idea when she says to not bring the tonsil hockey up during sex but at a different, more relaxed time. Showering should be easy to deal with in real time though. “I want to hump your bones, so get your stinky ass in the shower and meet me in the bedroom! Chop chop!”
10
Passive Aggression is a plague!!! Why people expect other people to simple intuit whatever they happen to be thinking or feeling without them having to speak up and USE THEIR WORDS is beyond me. Seriously, her relationship problems are because she refuses to speak, not because her husband is a dirty bad kisser.
11
The new kissing style and him not minding her lower libido sounded at first like he was having an affair. But the not-bathing makes that unlikely... I wonder how long the not-bathing thing has been going on. He might be depressed; he might be feeling that he doesn't have to make an effort because you're already married. Explain that this makes you feel unappreciated and talk about solutions with him.
Lilliable @8 - good suggestion.
Lilliable @8 - good suggestion.
12
You have the telepathy thing down real well so perhaps it's his reception that's faulty. Try adjusting his rabbit ears or maybe wrap some aluminum foil around his antenna.
14
I feel bad for ILL because almost everyone, myself included, has been in situations like that. But as the common sense advice posed by everyone here -- communicate with your husband. I suck at communicating and learned the hard way that I make everyone else's life miserable when I don't speak up. Don't start resenting your husband for problems he isn't aware of. Although showering once a week??? C'mon, man. Don't you feel gross?
15
Just talk to your husband, genius. Or write a long letter to a sex columnist you never met, I guess....
16
I can't fathom being with someone who bathes so rarely. Not attending to basic hygiene belies a fundamental lack of respect. I'm very curious whether he actually starts bathing once she asks him to. I'm not optimistic.
17
Dan needs to come up with a clever acronym like DTMFA, only for people who need to Speak The Fuck Up, Already. Unfortunately, STFU has a rather different meaning. Open Your Fucking Mouth and Say Something? OYFMSS? Seems there *must* be a solution as elegant as DTMFA.
18
Ah, to be in your 20s again... My suggestion: "accidentally" run across this post, and show it to him, gasping "OMG honey this could have been written by me!!"
20
Dear ILL,
Your husband doesn't seem to to worry about how his lack of hygiene and new kissing technique will bother you. You don't like these things, but you still love him. Don't you think his love for you will survive you saying: "honey, please shower at least twice/three times a week for my sake" and "let's go back to our former kissing style: I really like it! This new thing doesn't do it for me."
Honestly, if those statements are enough to drive him away, he has a real problem, and you should know it now--before life throws the two of you some real difficulties.
Say those things nicely, and not in a critical way. No eye-rolling, face-scrunching. Don't couch them in a long harangue about everything that is wrong with him. Make it clear that you think most everything else about him is the bees knees. And make it crystal clear that if he does those two things, you'll be inclined to fuck his brains out.
Your husband doesn't seem to to worry about how his lack of hygiene and new kissing technique will bother you. You don't like these things, but you still love him. Don't you think his love for you will survive you saying: "honey, please shower at least twice/three times a week for my sake" and "let's go back to our former kissing style: I really like it! This new thing doesn't do it for me."
Honestly, if those statements are enough to drive him away, he has a real problem, and you should know it now--before life throws the two of you some real difficulties.
Say those things nicely, and not in a critical way. No eye-rolling, face-scrunching. Don't couch them in a long harangue about everything that is wrong with him. Make it clear that you think most everything else about him is the bees knees. And make it crystal clear that if he does those two things, you'll be inclined to fuck his brains out.
21
@19 Good point. Otherwise it might be like the time in junior high when I auditioned for a play, and I read the stage directions from the script in a loud, dramatic voice (and subsequently died of embarrassment).
22
Not taking a shower every morning is *not* absent-mindedness. Make him do this - for his good, your good, and his co-workers' good. Please.
Natural scent 9 or 10 hours later - may be sexy, maybe not, depending on the scent. YMMV.
Natural scent 9 or 10 hours later - may be sexy, maybe not, depending on the scent. YMMV.
23
Wow, kiddies with fee fee problems.
Take charge of your fucking relationship, already. Your guy obviously can't take care of himself, so tell him in no uncertain terms that he will now be showering (with soap!) both before bed, and in the morning...every day.
Don't give him a choice, and don't give him any alternatives. The guy is so freaking passive that it sounds like you need to diaper his ass. Whip his ass into shape or kick him to the curb.
Showering once per week...fucking repulsive.
Take charge of your fucking relationship, already. Your guy obviously can't take care of himself, so tell him in no uncertain terms that he will now be showering (with soap!) both before bed, and in the morning...every day.
Don't give him a choice, and don't give him any alternatives. The guy is so freaking passive that it sounds like you need to diaper his ass. Whip his ass into shape or kick him to the curb.
Showering once per week...fucking repulsive.
25
If you can't speak up about something as simple and solvable as showering, this does not bode well for the future of your marriage.
"Babe, I wanna get dirty with you, but you've gotta get clean first. Hop your handsome ass in the shower and I'll be in the bedroom waiting for you, love."
If there is so much as a squeak of complaint, I'd be shocked. Men LOVE to be told how to fix things that need fixing. Feeling a little cabin fever? "Babe, I'm feeling restless, can you take me out to dinner/a movie/camping/whatever?" Feeling a little insecure? "Babe, I could use a little pick me up. Can we get dressed up and have a fancy hot date night where you make me feel like I'm hot stuff?" Want him to cut out some annoying crap? "Babe, I love you but it bothers me when you do xyz. Can you be a dear and try not to do that? I would really appreciate it." New sex habit you don't dig? "Babe, I love it when you are passionate with me but actually xyz gets me hotter. Can we do that instead?"
You can say damn near anything as long as you do it in a genuinely constructive and loving way. He doesn't want to turn you off, make you angry or upset you. All you have to do is give him the info he needs. That, and make a serious effort to get over the little shit. Save your fix-it tickets for things that you absolutely need them for. Emptying the dishwasher EVERY time is a small price to pay for a good man, and I guarantee you he lets slide a whole host of your annoying habits.
"Babe, I wanna get dirty with you, but you've gotta get clean first. Hop your handsome ass in the shower and I'll be in the bedroom waiting for you, love."
If there is so much as a squeak of complaint, I'd be shocked. Men LOVE to be told how to fix things that need fixing. Feeling a little cabin fever? "Babe, I'm feeling restless, can you take me out to dinner/a movie/camping/whatever?" Feeling a little insecure? "Babe, I could use a little pick me up. Can we get dressed up and have a fancy hot date night where you make me feel like I'm hot stuff?" Want him to cut out some annoying crap? "Babe, I love you but it bothers me when you do xyz. Can you be a dear and try not to do that? I would really appreciate it." New sex habit you don't dig? "Babe, I love it when you are passionate with me but actually xyz gets me hotter. Can we do that instead?"
You can say damn near anything as long as you do it in a genuinely constructive and loving way. He doesn't want to turn you off, make you angry or upset you. All you have to do is give him the info he needs. That, and make a serious effort to get over the little shit. Save your fix-it tickets for things that you absolutely need them for. Emptying the dishwasher EVERY time is a small price to pay for a good man, and I guarantee you he lets slide a whole host of your annoying habits.
27
I have a very sensitive husband too, but I had to learn how to talk to him. Bottling shit up will only sabotage your marriage.
28
"Now I realize your[sic] a woman, and you were socialized to defer to men.."
It's really got to suck to be XX and hear/read something like this. Either you're a victim or being patronized.
"he takes criticisms to heart..."
Translation: he quickly becomes a brat when confronted.
"... and is slow to criticize me, even when something might be bothering him."
Translation: He's as passive aggressive as she is.
It's really got to suck to be XX and hear/read something like this. Either you're a victim or being patronized.
"he takes criticisms to heart..."
Translation: he quickly becomes a brat when confronted.
"... and is slow to criticize me, even when something might be bothering him."
Translation: He's as passive aggressive as she is.
29
"Socialized" to do this is so spot on! Since I've been a regular SL reader and on the internet and generally growing up, I have been amazed to realize the damaging shit I was openly taught growing up and into adulthood. Formative years: Marriage books my mom had laying around about how good Christian wives should deal with their husbands were all full of techniques about how to gently deal with your husband without actually confronting him about anything or expressing strong opinions. See, challenging him in any way, and most especially directly asking for things in bed, will EMASCULATE your man and you will be a nag and a huge turnoff.
But then the mainstream secular world is no better - prime example is Cosmo. There is an awesome blogger I follow who does a regular takedown of Cosmo and pretty much all the advice there boils down to: "here is how you hint around and send signals and never ever talk like grownups about your relationship and sex life." Lady-mag culture pretty much follows this same m.o. Yeah, plenty of women just decide on their own to throw it off and risk being an emasculating bitch to get what they want, but plenty others (and I was one) really take it to heart and try ever so hard not to.
It's just overwhelming bullshit and I wish I could stamp it out. Hopefully, the internet is doing a lot of the work.
But then the mainstream secular world is no better - prime example is Cosmo. There is an awesome blogger I follow who does a regular takedown of Cosmo and pretty much all the advice there boils down to: "here is how you hint around and send signals and never ever talk like grownups about your relationship and sex life." Lady-mag culture pretty much follows this same m.o. Yeah, plenty of women just decide on their own to throw it off and risk being an emasculating bitch to get what they want, but plenty others (and I was one) really take it to heart and try ever so hard not to.
It's just overwhelming bullshit and I wish I could stamp it out. Hopefully, the internet is doing a lot of the work.
30
As an XX person who was, in fact, socialized to defer to men (as were many of my XX friends and family), it's refreshing to hear a dude acknowledge the social pressure that women often face to be agreeable, nice and non-confrontational/non-critical.
31
Jesus. Sometimes I wonder how straight people ever get laid.
(1) ILL, are you clairvoyant? Can you read minds? No? Well, neither can your husband. And generally, guys are not as good at reading expressions and subtle body language as women. He will not figure these things on his own unless you tell him. Subtle doesn't generally work well with guys either. So you gotta be blunt and straightforward. Be nice, but be direct.
(2) Bathing once a week? Gross. So gross. I've been known to skip a day once in a while, but I can't imagine going a whole week. That would gross out anyone... including all his coworkers. I don't care how busy he is or how much he wants to relax, bathing at least every other day should be a minimum expectation. If he hasn't figured that out by now, you will be doing him a huge favor by insisting on it. Everyone else in his life will thank you.
(1) ILL, are you clairvoyant? Can you read minds? No? Well, neither can your husband. And generally, guys are not as good at reading expressions and subtle body language as women. He will not figure these things on his own unless you tell him. Subtle doesn't generally work well with guys either. So you gotta be blunt and straightforward. Be nice, but be direct.
(2) Bathing once a week? Gross. So gross. I've been known to skip a day once in a while, but I can't imagine going a whole week. That would gross out anyone... including all his coworkers. I don't care how busy he is or how much he wants to relax, bathing at least every other day should be a minimum expectation. If he hasn't figured that out by now, you will be doing him a huge favor by insisting on it. Everyone else in his life will thank you.
32
debug beat me to it, but it's worth repeating:
Her husband is as bad a communicator as she is. This couple needs to learn to air some grievances every now and then. How else will they ever have make-up sex (which is the third best kind, after elevator and White House)?
Her husband is as bad a communicator as she is. This couple needs to learn to air some grievances every now and then. How else will they ever have make-up sex (which is the third best kind, after elevator and White House)?
33
Gawd, yes! Just yesterday, I had to put on my big girl panties and TELL my boyfriend what was bothering me. And you know what unheard of thing happened?
He listened.
He listened, and intends to adjust, like he did some months ago when I told him something else that was bothering me (in that case, it was dropping the L word after only a few weeks of dating). Didn't freak out or play the blame game. Helped that I didn't frame it as a "your fault, your fault, blame blame!", but rather "Here's how things are happening as I perceive it, and here's how it makes me feel."
Men aren't stupid, and the better ones DO want their girlfriends/boyfriends/wives/husbands/FWBs to be comfortable and happy and hot for them, and will do reasonable things to make it happen (reasonable as in "dont' say I Love You after less than a month", not "carve my name into your arm with a plastic spork and buy me a pony").
He listened.
He listened, and intends to adjust, like he did some months ago when I told him something else that was bothering me (in that case, it was dropping the L word after only a few weeks of dating). Didn't freak out or play the blame game. Helped that I didn't frame it as a "your fault, your fault, blame blame!", but rather "Here's how things are happening as I perceive it, and here's how it makes me feel."
Men aren't stupid, and the better ones DO want their girlfriends/boyfriends/wives/husbands/FWBs to be comfortable and happy and hot for them, and will do reasonable things to make it happen (reasonable as in "dont' say I Love You after less than a month", not "carve my name into your arm with a plastic spork and buy me a pony").
34
Use your words. You're both adults and sometimes as adults we have to fucking listen to each other even if we don't necessarily like what we're hearing.
35
I'd suggest finding out if he's depressed. Many humans follow the basic mammalian pattern of not self-grooming well when depressed---I've learned to use it as an indicator.....
36
I once learned a suggestion for how to give a partner constructive feedback, that I think of as the Oreo technique (because it comes in three layers) and have found very helpful:
1. Say something nice about them
2. Give the request/adjustment/critique (keeping it non-accusatory but clear)
3. Finish up by saying something else nice
secretagent @ 25 actually has several good examples of this. It's very important to speak up and not just passive-aggressively expect your partner to read your mind - but speaking too harshly or critically can make things worse. And the fear of sounding too harsh can make it harder to speak up, for fear of hurting someone. The sooner you say something the better, though; if you've been biting your tongue for a while it makes it harder to sound calm and reassuring when you're criticizing your partner.
1. Say something nice about them
2. Give the request/adjustment/critique (keeping it non-accusatory but clear)
3. Finish up by saying something else nice
secretagent @ 25 actually has several good examples of this. It's very important to speak up and not just passive-aggressively expect your partner to read your mind - but speaking too harshly or critically can make things worse. And the fear of sounding too harsh can make it harder to speak up, for fear of hurting someone. The sooner you say something the better, though; if you've been biting your tongue for a while it makes it harder to sound calm and reassuring when you're criticizing your partner.
37
@17: he already made one up years ago: OYM,SYP
Open Your Mouth, Solve Your Problem
Poor lady and her stinky husband.
Open Your Mouth, Solve Your Problem
Poor lady and her stinky husband.
38
[Preface: Ugh. I've been sick and, when I return, this is the letter I choose to comment on???]
There's a couple of things that ILL didn't mention. If he's showering only once a week, then how is she able to bear to sleep near him in the same bed (let alone in the same room)? I'm presuming that cuddles have also been eliminated, thereby reducing the intimacy factor even more.
How often is she forced to change the sheets – because there are bound to be a kajillion dead skin cells and lots of sweat deposited on those sheets? If they had a housekeeper to do the grunt work, then ILL wouldn't be faced with a constant reminder – even when he's not there – of what she's putting up with. [This is where I'm giving free rein to my imagination. Even though ILL says he works long hours and just wants to chill when he gets home, it would be fun to see her dumping a few loads of dirty bed linens by his chair when he comes in, saying she's tired of doing it all the time simply because he won't bathe.]
I wonder if his bathing less often is either a subconscious reaction or even a consciously passive-aggressive response to the reduction in their sexual activity (even though ILL claims he's been very understanding)? But what if he's actually been feeling rejected or angry, yet won't say anything. Or he could be depressed about something else (like those long hours at his job) that she's not aware of. It certainly doesn't help that ILL won't speak to him because she doesn't want to hurt his feelings and she says he's very shy.
Also, if she's the initiator (as ILL claims), then why doesn't she take charge of the kissing? It's a really simple solution. I remember one partner whose kisses were far from inspiring, so I took over and introduced him to more nuanced lip-locks. There's no reason why she shouldn't be able to do the same. Don't go into the why, ILL, just do it. Hold his face steady (by the jaw or cheeks) with your hands and show him.
I'm definitely not in favour of the concept of dangling rewards in front of him (shower = blowjob as one example). For one thing, he's not five and shouldn't need to be promised dessert if he eats his spinach. And she's not his mommy either. Besides, that's only one dessert (er ... blowjob). Also, should she not be in the mood, then that would simply give him the justification to slip back into his old habits.
For two adults in a relationship both probably would claim they want to succeed (if only they'd open their mouths), they can't go lurching from one bribe to another when they don't agree on something. They both need to talk and listen.
More...
There's a couple of things that ILL didn't mention. If he's showering only once a week, then how is she able to bear to sleep near him in the same bed (let alone in the same room)? I'm presuming that cuddles have also been eliminated, thereby reducing the intimacy factor even more.
How often is she forced to change the sheets – because there are bound to be a kajillion dead skin cells and lots of sweat deposited on those sheets? If they had a housekeeper to do the grunt work, then ILL wouldn't be faced with a constant reminder – even when he's not there – of what she's putting up with. [This is where I'm giving free rein to my imagination. Even though ILL says he works long hours and just wants to chill when he gets home, it would be fun to see her dumping a few loads of dirty bed linens by his chair when he comes in, saying she's tired of doing it all the time simply because he won't bathe.]
I wonder if his bathing less often is either a subconscious reaction or even a consciously passive-aggressive response to the reduction in their sexual activity (even though ILL claims he's been very understanding)? But what if he's actually been feeling rejected or angry, yet won't say anything. Or he could be depressed about something else (like those long hours at his job) that she's not aware of. It certainly doesn't help that ILL won't speak to him because she doesn't want to hurt his feelings and she says he's very shy.
Also, if she's the initiator (as ILL claims), then why doesn't she take charge of the kissing? It's a really simple solution. I remember one partner whose kisses were far from inspiring, so I took over and introduced him to more nuanced lip-locks. There's no reason why she shouldn't be able to do the same. Don't go into the why, ILL, just do it. Hold his face steady (by the jaw or cheeks) with your hands and show him.
I'm definitely not in favour of the concept of dangling rewards in front of him (shower = blowjob as one example). For one thing, he's not five and shouldn't need to be promised dessert if he eats his spinach. And she's not his mommy either. Besides, that's only one dessert (er ... blowjob). Also, should she not be in the mood, then that would simply give him the justification to slip back into his old habits.
For two adults in a relationship both probably would claim they want to succeed (if only they'd open their mouths), they can't go lurching from one bribe to another when they don't agree on something. They both need to talk and listen.
39
@38 Helenka (also a Canuck)
Welcome back.
At my most borderline-check-him-into-a-hospital depressed I bathed more than once a week. Chilling is very time consuming as we all know, but who doesn't have ten minutes to take off the top layer in the shower?
Welcome back.
At my most borderline-check-him-into-a-hospital depressed I bathed more than once a week. Chilling is very time consuming as we all know, but who doesn't have ten minutes to take off the top layer in the shower?
40
Dan nailed it with this sentence: "Being told the truth—straight up—couldn't possibly hurt a husband's feelings more than his wife's constant and mysterious rejection."
He's probably depressed because his wife has stopped being interested in him sexually, and won't tell him why.
He's probably depressed because his wife has stopped being interested in him sexually, and won't tell him why.
41
I think the letter that was the most over the top example of this for me was the woman who had the new fuckbuddy and was too afraid of hurting his widdle feelings to tell him he had severe anal hygiene problems before a rimjob. That was kind of my a-ha moment on how warped some women's sense of self can get without them even being aware there's a problem (or at least with them having severely mischaracterized their problem). Changed the way I looked at my 'relationship dilemmas,' I'll tell you. And not just with significant others. Of course, that was also right around the time I became a boss, so I might have had the epiphany anyway, but anal hygiene has a way of driving these things home.
42
My father literally can't smell (he's also color blind and damaged his hearing as a teenager, poor man is just a train wreck). As a teenager, rather than be mortified by his lack of hygeine, my sisters and I would remind him that he needed to shower, and coordinated his closet to work around his lack of ability to see color. If in the context of a clearly subordinate child-parent relationship a gaggle of teenaged girls could find a workable solution, I would think that in a loving, caring, equal-footing relationship, ILL could do the same.
Erica, I have to say I'm surprised at your assumption that his new technique pointed initially towards an affair. I learned almost everything I know about sex from reading, porn, and an extremely fertile imagination. Perhaps Mr Stinky reads erotica, views porn, or has heard someone talk about the whole suck your tongue until it nearly separates from your body and thought 'hmmmmm, I'd like to try that". It's entirely possible that he's still trying it because it's not giving him the sensation that he thought it would and he thinks that maybe he's just not doing it right yet. To be fair to you, my husband used to ask where I 'learned' something that I obviously didn't pick up from him; I've handed him a dog eared book or queued up the DVD player enough times that now he asks what I've been reading with hopeful anticipation of something that will knock his socks off.
Erica, I have to say I'm surprised at your assumption that his new technique pointed initially towards an affair. I learned almost everything I know about sex from reading, porn, and an extremely fertile imagination. Perhaps Mr Stinky reads erotica, views porn, or has heard someone talk about the whole suck your tongue until it nearly separates from your body and thought 'hmmmmm, I'd like to try that". It's entirely possible that he's still trying it because it's not giving him the sensation that he thought it would and he thinks that maybe he's just not doing it right yet. To be fair to you, my husband used to ask where I 'learned' something that I obviously didn't pick up from him; I've handed him a dog eared book or queued up the DVD player enough times that now he asks what I've been reading with hopeful anticipation of something that will knock his socks off.
43
Seems like the most obvious thing at least to me, is for the shy nerdy people to write notes or send texts as a way to communicate and still be non-confrontational, and you can include smiley faces if that makes it seems nicer. I should probably mention that my experience in dealing with males has been two teenage stepsons, so the bargaining goes more like 'shower and brush your teeth everyday and we'll buy you this game' and threats like 'don't sulk or you'll go to bed an hour early', but I imagine it can still translate=no shower, no nookie; and the next time he tries to excavate your tonsils blow a raspberry (since you don't want sex at that point anyway) and tell him that's how gross that is.
44
@39 (Mr. J)
Thank you. It feels weird to be commenting again. I was going to add more but still tire easily.
I actually think a shower might be counterproductive when he comes home late (from the stimulating prickle of the spray). However, he might enjoy having a medium-warm bath every evening, with ILL sitting next to the tub. He'd get clean while chilling and then they could cuddle on still-clean sheets.
At least it would be a start to get them interacting, preventing resentment from building up unchecked on both sides.
Thank you. It feels weird to be commenting again. I was going to add more but still tire easily.
I actually think a shower might be counterproductive when he comes home late (from the stimulating prickle of the spray). However, he might enjoy having a medium-warm bath every evening, with ILL sitting next to the tub. He'd get clean while chilling and then they could cuddle on still-clean sheets.
At least it would be a start to get them interacting, preventing resentment from building up unchecked on both sides.
45
It's time to disinhibit! Ha, I'm going to adopt that as a new motto. It works for so many varied situations.
46
She may also want to check out the book Nice Girl Syndrome (Engel) for insight into why she has a hard time speaking up when something makes her extremely uncomfortable for fear that it might hurt the other person's feelings. It's not just that she's learned to "defer to men;" she's learned to put others' feelings ahead of her own (which are valid and important) in order to be "nice."
I hadn't heard of that book until someone mentioned it on here, and it's one of the most eye-opening books I've ever read. It honestly changed my perspective on how I deal with people, and it floors me how often I recognize the behavior in other women now.
I hadn't heard of that book until someone mentioned it on here, and it's one of the most eye-opening books I've ever read. It honestly changed my perspective on how I deal with people, and it floors me how often I recognize the behavior in other women now.
47
If your husband is really "sweet and considerate and very sensitive" and "takes criticisms to heart," then fucking tell him. Jesus Christ.
48
@46 -- I've never heard of that book until now, and upon looking it up out of curiosity I realize I know someone who might receive a much-needed anonymous copy of it in the near-ish future.
49
@ 17, @ 37 -
"@17: he already made one up years ago: OYM,SYP
Open Your Mouth, Solve Your Problem"
That's good, but DTMFA seems shorter & punchier. How about just, UYW? USE YOUR WORDS That is the answer for many of life's problems. My pals ask me for advice sometimes, & whether it's friend/friend, employee/boss, or spouse/spouse, UYW is the answer to many varied queries.
"@17: he already made one up years ago: OYM,SYP
Open Your Mouth, Solve Your Problem"
That's good, but DTMFA seems shorter & punchier. How about just, UYW? USE YOUR WORDS That is the answer for many of life's problems. My pals ask me for advice sometimes, & whether it's friend/friend, employee/boss, or spouse/spouse, UYW is the answer to many varied queries.
51
"Yo babe, you're turning me off with this lack of bathing shit. 5 minutes in the shower is all I'm asking, because I want to snuggle with you, and I just can't right now."
"I love it when you do X, but please ixnay on the extreme tonsil hockey."
If he's too fragile to handle either of those statements, you got bigger problems than just those issues.
"I love it when you do X, but please ixnay on the extreme tonsil hockey."
If he's too fragile to handle either of those statements, you got bigger problems than just those issues.
52
One of the hazards of an LTR is YSTRMM (You're Supposed To Read My Mind) syndrome. While I have experienced random occurrences of what seemed like telepathy (my wife has the uncanny ability to know to call when I'm taking a dump; I bring the phone in with me now), it doesn't usually work.
Most of our problems originate somewhere else, but grow because we don't deal with them. A 2 minute back rub and a quiet talk can head off niggling bullshit before it becomes a headache, or worse, something that takes years of counseling to repair.
ILL, it's not cheating to tell your lover what you like and what you don't like, especially in the heat of the moment as positive reinforcement.
Peace.
Most of our problems originate somewhere else, but grow because we don't deal with them. A 2 minute back rub and a quiet talk can head off niggling bullshit before it becomes a headache, or worse, something that takes years of counseling to repair.
ILL, it's not cheating to tell your lover what you like and what you don't like, especially in the heat of the moment as positive reinforcement.
Peace.
53
Good fucking god! The letter was TLDR, and the advice--while spot on--was obvious.
If you can't communicate with your SO, you don't know how to be in a relationship.
USE YOUR WORDS.
If you can't communicate with your SO, you don't know how to be in a relationship.
USE YOUR WORDS.
54
@33: So you gave him a stern talking-to when he told you he loved you? You sound dreamy.
If it was truly cringe-inducingly early, you're crazy to be with him. If not, he's crazy to be with you. Those are the only two possibilities. I have spoken.
And what everyone said about communication.
If it was truly cringe-inducingly early, you're crazy to be with him. If not, he's crazy to be with you. Those are the only two possibilities. I have spoken.
And what everyone said about communication.
56
It must be a really uncomfortable home life for someone who can't swat her husband on the tush and say "go take a shower, babe." If the husband is really so sensitive, I don't think having the sit-down heart-to-heart is going to wind up being "gentle." How could he NOT think "my god, how long have I been repelling her??" further internalizing it.
I prefer the swat on the bottom approach.
I prefer the swat on the bottom approach.
57
To any woman reading these comments, you have to understand that one of the great gifts you have that men do not is the ability to understand and read social hints and cues much more readily. Typically, men understand physical space better, women understand emotional space better, and both have their place.
So basically, while those hints and cues are so painfully obvious to you, your man is deaf and blind to them. You have to say something, and say it plainly and obviously, that is the only way your man is going to understand exactly what you mean. Contrary to popular belief, a man will not get offended if you tell him what you want (sexually or otherwise). If he does, he is insecure and needs some help growing up.
So basically, while those hints and cues are so painfully obvious to you, your man is deaf and blind to them. You have to say something, and say it plainly and obviously, that is the only way your man is going to understand exactly what you mean. Contrary to popular belief, a man will not get offended if you tell him what you want (sexually or otherwise). If he does, he is insecure and needs some help growing up.
58
@11 EricaP: Given the rest of the situation, the new kissing style is at least as likely to be his attempt to spice up their physical relationship in the wake of waning interest from his wife, as it is to be learned at an affair on his part. (Likely as not learned at the computer screen, that inexhaustible font of sexual disinformation for men, during a little self-gratification after yet another night of lukewarm "no thanks" from her.) Frankly, she had better talk to him, and quick, before he concludes that the reason she is no longer interested in him is because -she's- the one having the affair.
59
I find it very strange to see this notion from many people here that you should bathe every day, that is completely ridiculous, unnecessary and not environment friendly!
I always thought that bathing once every three days is too much, and once per week is a standard.
Bathing once per day is totally over the top.
I always thought that bathing once every three days is too much, and once per week is a standard.
Bathing once per day is totally over the top.
60
@36 - Man, the oreo technique works so well. I have coworkers who are terrible at it and never get what they want from management. I lead with what I'm happy about before I start bitching and everybody listens. Give a little, get a little, people!
61
+1 for the oreo technique.
Tell him the things that you like, and explicitly say "More of that, please!" Then go ahead and say the things that are a turn-off, and explain why (especially the kissing; it's not that he's a lousy kisser, no, he's a great kisser, but that specific thing is a trigger having nothing to do with him), but reinforce what you want him to do, and what makes you desire him.
Also, however, be prepared to check in with yourself about that "litany of outside problems lately," and make an effort to push past it. If he makes a good faith effort to give you what you said you want, and you don't respond accordingly, the message that will send is that everything you just said was really an excuse to cover the increasingly obvious fact that you just plain don't want him. I trust that isn't the message you want to send. Don't send it by accident.
Tell him the things that you like, and explicitly say "More of that, please!" Then go ahead and say the things that are a turn-off, and explain why (especially the kissing; it's not that he's a lousy kisser, no, he's a great kisser, but that specific thing is a trigger having nothing to do with him), but reinforce what you want him to do, and what makes you desire him.
Also, however, be prepared to check in with yourself about that "litany of outside problems lately," and make an effort to push past it. If he makes a good faith effort to give you what you said you want, and you don't respond accordingly, the message that will send is that everything you just said was really an excuse to cover the increasingly obvious fact that you just plain don't want him. I trust that isn't the message you want to send. Don't send it by accident.
63
Mental illnesses such as depression can cause changes in people's attention to personal hygiene. Showering "maybe once a week" is pretty extreme, so especially if this is a significant change in his behavior I would consider addressing it as a potential medical problem, perhaps talking to a doctor.
64
@59: I'll grant the typical American daily shower is arguably excessive (but feels soo nice), but the only way once a week can be standard is if you regularly use a bidet. I mean seriously.
65
One note about telling your partner he/she needs to bathe more often, get their teeth cleaned, use mouthwash, whatever: don't do it in bed. Do it in a neutral situation, when neither of you is particularly angry/horny/stressed, whatever. I told my husband that one of the things I missed about our early courtship was him always having fresh-brushed teeth right before our dates, and now he makes sure his teeth are brushed before nooky is initiated.
Bathing once a week would make me itch like I had lice. The only time I've ever gone that long has been when I was a) pubescent, b) horrifically depressed, or c) backpacking (and even then, I made sure to find some way to at least wash). Having sex with someone who hasn't bathed in a week is totally out of the question; I'm short and my nose tends to end up too near an armpit.
Bathing once a week would make me itch like I had lice. The only time I've ever gone that long has been when I was a) pubescent, b) horrifically depressed, or c) backpacking (and even then, I made sure to find some way to at least wash). Having sex with someone who hasn't bathed in a week is totally out of the question; I'm short and my nose tends to end up too near an armpit.
66
(It's a rule of mine that the heavy relationship conversations should NEVER happen in bed. I find that forestalls an awful lot of problems.)
68
@59, depends on where you live. Believe me, if you were close to the tropics with temperatures ranging from 35-40 centigrade (I think that's about 95-105 in that funny temperature scale you use up north), you wouldn't bathe only once per day, but actually twice (once before you go to work, once after you come back -- and that, assuming you just work an office job).
Bathing frequency is very dependent on your environment. You do whatever you have to do in order not to feel dirty, or give the impression you're dirty to others.
Bathing frequency is very dependent on your environment. You do whatever you have to do in order not to feel dirty, or give the impression you're dirty to others.
69
It's funny how people feel their partners are such delicate roses that they can't really discuss things in an adult manner. I understand the LW feels her partner is already 'shy' (I note she says it takes him forever to criticize her). I'd asker her: and how do you feel when he finally does criticize you? Do you feel really bad if he does whatever he does to say 'baby, I think you shouldn't do / have done this or that'?
Nobody is perfect. ILL, I'd bet there are a couple of things your husband also doesn't like about you -- details also: something you do with your hair that he doesn't like, something you do in bed that turns him off... and he maybe also feels he shouldn't tell you that because your feelings might be terribly hurt.
But would they? Would you feel so terribly hurt if he said, I don't know, that you might think about using dental floss, or that you hurt him a little with your nails last time you had sex, or that you sometimes set the TV volume too high when you're watching your favorite show, or... all of which are easy-to-solve problems?
So why should he feel hurt about you telling him that these little problems (showering, vacuum kissing) bother you?
Not every criticism has to hurt. As someone else said, you can talk about pretty much anything, as long as you do it in a respectful and loving manner -- more or less as you would like him to talk to you about any similarly annoying habit of yours.
Nobody is perfect. ILL, I'd bet there are a couple of things your husband also doesn't like about you -- details also: something you do with your hair that he doesn't like, something you do in bed that turns him off... and he maybe also feels he shouldn't tell you that because your feelings might be terribly hurt.
But would they? Would you feel so terribly hurt if he said, I don't know, that you might think about using dental floss, or that you hurt him a little with your nails last time you had sex, or that you sometimes set the TV volume too high when you're watching your favorite show, or... all of which are easy-to-solve problems?
So why should he feel hurt about you telling him that these little problems (showering, vacuum kissing) bother you?
Not every criticism has to hurt. As someone else said, you can talk about pretty much anything, as long as you do it in a respectful and loving manner -- more or less as you would like him to talk to you about any similarly annoying habit of yours.
70
Whoa! Did my ex-boyfriend get married?! I can totally relate to ILL. After broaching the subject gently MANY, MANY times (and not so gently a few times) to no success, I finally wound up just feeling repulsed at the very thought of sex even though I still really loved him. A relationship can't survive like that. I just couldn't do it anymore. Keep talking to him, ILL, and hope he grows up and cleans up soon!
71
Man, how lazy do you have to be to not shower. They’re making it pretty freaking simple for guys these days. I was in target the other day and there’s some nivea wash for body, face and hair. One product for it all. Buy it for your husband, then tell him to take a 5 minute shower with it, once a day. Not hard. Its only one step now.
73
I have to say, the first thing I thought was "how is his mental health"? I'd be wary of a sudden change in behavior, especially anything extreme in the area of personal hygiene. Presumably he has contact with other people during his day, too? He doesn't worry about offending them?
Of the course, the other possibility is that since she is usually the one to initiate, he is using his body (hygiene and his curious new kissing style) passive-aggressively so she'll stay away.
There are gendered expectations about grooming. If their genders and roles were reversed, and a woman suddenly stopped bathing and started doing things that grossed out her partner, I think it would be seen differently. It would regarded less like a "guy thing" and more like something that might be a symptom of something more serious than a lapse in personal care and sexual technique.
Of the course, the other possibility is that since she is usually the one to initiate, he is using his body (hygiene and his curious new kissing style) passive-aggressively so she'll stay away.
There are gendered expectations about grooming. If their genders and roles were reversed, and a woman suddenly stopped bathing and started doing things that grossed out her partner, I think it would be seen differently. It would regarded less like a "guy thing" and more like something that might be a symptom of something more serious than a lapse in personal care and sexual technique.
74
Women don't seem to get that for men? Being told "you're gross! go shower!" isn't nearly as devastating as it would be for us.
Every girl, I think, has some traumatizing memory of being in middle school, suddenly developing armpit stink because of puberty and going through an awkward phase where suddenly, hygiene requires all this extra effort and responsibility. Sure, it's like that for guys, too, but for women, the shaming and insults and crap happen at a higher level, because if there's one thing you absolutely CANNOT be as a woman, it's gross.
For women, "smelly and dirty" is a black mark you can never, ever recover from. Anyone who tells you they see you this way will never even LIKE or respect you as a person, much less ever find you sexually attractive. Ever. At least, that's what it feels like to us.
For guys? It's really not a biggie. Sure, there's pressure for them to keep clean, but there's also a sort of portion of the cult of manhood that says that being smelly and gross is an expected part of masculinity. You want to keep it at bay, but hey, you're a guy.
What that means is that women don't want to bring this up because we think of how WE would feel if our significant other said that to us. Yeah, don't worry about it so much, girls.
Every girl, I think, has some traumatizing memory of being in middle school, suddenly developing armpit stink because of puberty and going through an awkward phase where suddenly, hygiene requires all this extra effort and responsibility. Sure, it's like that for guys, too, but for women, the shaming and insults and crap happen at a higher level, because if there's one thing you absolutely CANNOT be as a woman, it's gross.
For women, "smelly and dirty" is a black mark you can never, ever recover from. Anyone who tells you they see you this way will never even LIKE or respect you as a person, much less ever find you sexually attractive. Ever. At least, that's what it feels like to us.
For guys? It's really not a biggie. Sure, there's pressure for them to keep clean, but there's also a sort of portion of the cult of manhood that says that being smelly and gross is an expected part of masculinity. You want to keep it at bay, but hey, you're a guy.
What that means is that women don't want to bring this up because we think of how WE would feel if our significant other said that to us. Yeah, don't worry about it so much, girls.
75
Late 20s and socialized to defer to men? Are we living in the same universe?
How do you end up marrying someone you can't even ask/tell to bathe?!
How do you end up marrying someone you can't even ask/tell to bathe?!
77
@28 - you're right, clever you. He may be as passive aggressive as she is. Either way, I fucking hate that shit. What makes you think it's a better course of action to ignore an issue and hope that it fixes itself?!
Just confront your goddamn problem already! If you married him, you should trust him enough to tell him when he's smelling bad!
Just confront your goddamn problem already! If you married him, you should trust him enough to tell him when he's smelling bad!
78
Ya know... I've been on the receiving end of "this triggers" and it was... well.. difficult. But, I love my partner more than it was difficult. It was only difficult that time, I don't do that trigger behavior any more, and now it is over, and we have better sex because of it forever. Forever. So, for me, it was totally worth it to have that talk.
79
@59: "I always thought that bathing once every three days is too much, and once per week is a standard.
Bathing once per day is totally over the top."
Nice to see the stink patrol has joined us to advocate for no-soap among their dumpster diving efforts. Sheesh, I can't believe the stuff people politicize.
Bathing once per day is totally over the top."
Nice to see the stink patrol has joined us to advocate for no-soap among their dumpster diving efforts. Sheesh, I can't believe the stuff people politicize.
80
Just have to say reading "you're worried more about your husband's fee fees" made tears stream.
Thanks Dan
Thanks Dan
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