Slog Comments
Laughing at Racism
1
I dunno. Racism is indeed a very pervasive problem, and played a major role in the European conquest of the globe, but saying that it's the foundation of western culture strikes me a either just as dunderheaded, or a case of generating controversy for its own sake.
2
I'm just going to head off some apologists at the pass who might try to claim that this is just art, any publicity is good publicity, you can't be racist against blacks if you are black, etc:
Why did the artist not seek images or voices of actual women who endured FGM, but used a caricature instead? Moreover, why was that caricature based on Sarah Baartman, who had such a shitty life? Who, knowing anything about her abuse, can feel good about themselves after symbolically mutilating her? Why did the piece solicit audience symbolic participation in the mutilation of women? How the fuck was that supposed to encourage better policy, or see black women as agents capable of ending mutilation themselves with outside allies? You can hear people laughing in the background, turning their discomfort to lightheartedness - when is that ever an acceptable response, given the stakes?
Why did the artist not seek images or voices of actual women who endured FGM, but used a caricature instead? Moreover, why was that caricature based on Sarah Baartman, who had such a shitty life? Who, knowing anything about her abuse, can feel good about themselves after symbolically mutilating her? Why did the piece solicit audience symbolic participation in the mutilation of women? How the fuck was that supposed to encourage better policy, or see black women as agents capable of ending mutilation themselves with outside allies? You can hear people laughing in the background, turning their discomfort to lightheartedness - when is that ever an acceptable response, given the stakes?
3
Western culture was founded on Germanic culture, the legacy of the Grecco-Roman tradition, and Christianity.
4
I think some people have too strong a tendency to see racism where it isn't. That said, please excuse me while I clear my throat.
Ahem.
HOLY HELL IS THAT FUCKED UP. I saw it yesterday on HP and I couldn't believe it. I can't imagine walking into a room, someone handing me a knife, and suggesting I cut into that cake. Mr. McWhitey here would have said "Are you motherfucking kidding me?!" and left. I don't care if it's art, it's obscene and entirely disturbing. And no, not in a thought provoking way. The only thought it provokes in me is a deep and abiding urge to slap the artist.
Ahem.
HOLY HELL IS THAT FUCKED UP. I saw it yesterday on HP and I couldn't believe it. I can't imagine walking into a room, someone handing me a knife, and suggesting I cut into that cake. Mr. McWhitey here would have said "Are you motherfucking kidding me?!" and left. I don't care if it's art, it's obscene and entirely disturbing. And no, not in a thought provoking way. The only thought it provokes in me is a deep and abiding urge to slap the artist.
5
@1 Actually, Enlightenment thinkers who came up with pretty much all of the ideas we take for granted - individual rational choice, social contract, standards for logical argumentation, state-society relations, etc and so forth - explicitly limited these standards to white European men. We hear a lot about Mary Wollstonecraft's refutation of the standard to men, but the big thinkers also explicitly looked to Haitian slaves and Africa and rejected their inclusion as people capable of rational thought, or as people at at all.
7
All human culture is pervasively racist, if you want to get right down to it. Once you can stop the human brain from defining groups by physical or social differences and using simplified heuristics to characterize all members of those groups, then you'll end racism. Good luck.
9
@1, @3, etc. -- you can talk about philosophical underpinnings all you want, but Western Europe would still be eating nuts and berries if it wasn't for the slave economy and the forcible importation of not just people of other races but their products and ideas. A pretty good case has been made for the potato as being the basis of Western society -- the potato is what made farm life in most of Europe possible, because it's the only single-crop food that can sustain life. The potato was brought to Europe, i.e., stolen, by a process that was based on racism.
Almost all of the wealth of Europe was acquired either by theft or slavery -- at the point of a gun. This is what made all your fancy churches and philosophers and kings and laws possible in the first place.
Almost all of the wealth of Europe was acquired either by theft or slavery -- at the point of a gun. This is what made all your fancy churches and philosophers and kings and laws possible in the first place.
11
@ 5, so what does that say? To me, all it says is that they were racists anyway, which is a condition hardly unique to Europeans. Additionally, all those ideas are the very backbone of the notion of social equality - between women and men, between people of different classes, between people of different races. All the people who fought for equality for those groups used those very arguments. Whether the guys who thought it up believed it applied to anyone NOT white, aristocratic and male is pretty much immaterial in 2012.
Pervasive, endemic, ingrained - take your pick, those are all accurate adjectives about racism in western culture. But founded upon it?
Pervasive, endemic, ingrained - take your pick, those are all accurate adjectives about racism in western culture. But founded upon it?
12
Holy shit. Thank you for linking to that article. I forgot about this gem: "Honking was an attempt to reassert privilege."
13
As a *colored* person, hearing white people endlessly pontificate about racism is becoming more of an issue than dealing with actual race based discrimination.
but tell us all how you feel about how racism is bad for you again.... and wear a hoodie.
*sigh*
but tell us all how you feel about how racism is bad for you again.... and wear a hoodie.
*sigh*
15
@9: True, but honestly, at a certain point, I think history becomes... not irrelevant, certainly, but less important. Yep, white folks were shitty to a whole lot of people - including, it's important to point out, a whole lot of white folks - How about them Irish?
It's more important to me how people are treated today and tomorrow than they were yesterday, in other words. Particularly when the history we're talking about in terms of slavery and the potato - which, be it deep-fried or mashed, I'll never look at the same way, thanks very much - is a century or more old. Native Americans, blacks, South and Central Americans, etc, all got a shitty deal in this country. Let's concentrate on giving them a better one now rather than obsessing over the past.
It's more important to me how people are treated today and tomorrow than they were yesterday, in other words. Particularly when the history we're talking about in terms of slavery and the potato - which, be it deep-fried or mashed, I'll never look at the same way, thanks very much - is a century or more old. Native Americans, blacks, South and Central Americans, etc, all got a shitty deal in this country. Let's concentrate on giving them a better one now rather than obsessing over the past.
16
So, if you don't like someone's art, the artist must be a horrible, evil person? If that art involves cultures that you only know about from secondhand sources, then it must be judged by the cultural standards you do know about?
Fuck. How is this kind of discussion even offered on SLOG? Ask questions of the artist, don't just condemn him because you "don't get it".
Fuck. How is this kind of discussion even offered on SLOG? Ask questions of the artist, don't just condemn him because you "don't get it".
17
That cake is appalling. And could you just imagine some cabinet secretary here cutting into a cake like that?!? Holy crap!!!
18
@ 9, civilizations all over the world enslaved conquered people, and probably used epithets against those people while they were doing it. It's not unique to Europe.
20
Jen,
@ 2 nails it. I will not see/hear this piece. This is out-of-line. I've heard of outrageous pieces of art but this is riduculous. And @18 you have a point.
@ 2 nails it. I will not see/hear this piece. This is out-of-line. I've heard of outrageous pieces of art but this is riduculous. And @18 you have a point.
21
@16: I'm sure that, intellectually speaking, there are some lovely cannibals out there. That doesn't mean I need to ask them for goddamn cooking recipes. And just because this was created by an 'artist' doesn't mean they weren't a twat. And doesn't mean I need to appreciate, question, or in any way indulge their work. Anyone not immediately disgusted by that portrayal... Well, fuck 'em. I have more important things things to do than talk to them, like scratch my ass.
22
I agree with @2. Rhetorically speaking, the setting—a room full of white people eating cake—doesn't set the stage for seriously discussing female genital mutilation. Either the topic of female genital mutilation is serious enough to take seriously, serious enough for people to put down their forks and cameras; or it's a kind of banquet and sideshow. The impact of a message depends on its setting. If this setting were more thoughtful and appropriate for the topic, I doubt that anyone would be laughing. I blame the artist for debasing the message.
25
This is appalling, but I have to admit it was provoking. The laughter is as horrifying as the cake, but I suppose it was nervous laughter, in part.
27
#9 - as usual, "Fnarf" is being a simplistic ass. Yes, all of the wealth of Europe was "stolen" or based on slavery. Because, you know, Europeans never invented anything worthwhile or acquired any business acumen. Fuck off in your stupid bathtub.
28
Fnarf @9, *All* accumulation of wealth is necessarily exploitative, not just western European.
Roman, Chinese, Russian, Egyptian, Persian, and most other human empires operated by redirecting the work and products of the many to the disproportionate benefit of a few people. It isn't just a "western" problem, and unless it is addressed as a universal problem, we will not be able to overcome the behavior.
Of course, it wouldn't hurt for us to make more of an effort to address the problem, and eliminating exploitation based on race and culture is a good first step.
Roman, Chinese, Russian, Egyptian, Persian, and most other human empires operated by redirecting the work and products of the many to the disproportionate benefit of a few people. It isn't just a "western" problem, and unless it is addressed as a universal problem, we will not be able to overcome the behavior.
Of course, it wouldn't hurt for us to make more of an effort to address the problem, and eliminating exploitation based on race and culture is a good first step.
29
@9 Oh. Fer.
Please tell us of any advanced civilization NOT founded by violence, slavery, exploitation, and pillage?
I didn't realize that Gengis Kahn was Scottish German?
Or are we only mad at the ones that were the most most "recently" successful?
Jeebus Fucking Chronst. Listen to yourself. Could be any more over the top?
Yes. Colonialism and looting are ONE of the foundations of MOST civilizations. But still eating nuts and berries? There were no other stand alone discoveries by western civilization? No Hellenic league? No Plato? No Aristotle? No Rome? Are you fucking kidding me?
Jeez. I guess the entire rest of the world were these guileless technologically morally superior pacifist innocents just standing around having free love until the Europeans showed up and pulled a fast one and stole everything from them.
God, how did these monsters from Europe manage that. Seeing as they were all so much dumber, brutal, and unoriginal.
The potato? STOLEN! So what are you doing about this terrible crime? You should pay a licenses fee to Peru for every french fry you have ever eaten.
The next American who levels such a one-sided hyperbolic indictment I insist must give all their worldly possessions to an African charity or shut the fuck up.
Please tell us of any advanced civilization NOT founded by violence, slavery, exploitation, and pillage?
I didn't realize that Gengis Kahn was Scottish German?
Or are we only mad at the ones that were the most most "recently" successful?
Jeebus Fucking Chronst. Listen to yourself. Could be any more over the top?
Yes. Colonialism and looting are ONE of the foundations of MOST civilizations. But still eating nuts and berries? There were no other stand alone discoveries by western civilization? No Hellenic league? No Plato? No Aristotle? No Rome? Are you fucking kidding me?
Jeez. I guess the entire rest of the world were these guileless technologically morally superior pacifist innocents just standing around having free love until the Europeans showed up and pulled a fast one and stole everything from them.
God, how did these monsters from Europe manage that. Seeing as they were all so much dumber, brutal, and unoriginal.
The potato? STOLEN! So what are you doing about this terrible crime? You should pay a licenses fee to Peru for every french fry you have ever eaten.
The next American who levels such a one-sided hyperbolic indictment I insist must give all their worldly possessions to an African charity or shut the fuck up.
31
@9 Your putting the cart in front of the horse. Jen said, "Western culture was founded on racism", which is flat out wrong.
European civilization was firmly established before their predatory capitalism phase ( "age of discovery".) The Columbian exchange began 700 years after the birth of what we call "Western Culture". Those fancy kings and churches and whatnot where around long before potatoes.
Also, the fact that you claim the potato made farm life possible ignores numerous population explosions, such as the one corrected by the black death.
European civilization was firmly established before their predatory capitalism phase ( "age of discovery".) The Columbian exchange began 700 years after the birth of what we call "Western Culture". Those fancy kings and churches and whatnot where around long before potatoes.
Also, the fact that you claim the potato made farm life possible ignores numerous population explosions, such as the one corrected by the black death.
32
There is nothing implicitly Western about racism.
Racism is tribalism writ large, and tribalism is intrinsic to the human condition. It is our nature. It is nature for ALL of us, not just Westerners.
Now, as Rose Sayer, Katherine Hepburn's character in the African Queen, said: "Nature, Mr. Allnut, is what we are put in this world to rise above."
Yes, it is our nature to be racist, but we can transcend our nature. We can be better people than that. Sometimes we succeed, sometimes we fail. But no matter how natural racism may be, to wallow in it is a disgrace.
Farting is natural too, that doesn't make it right to do it in a crowded elevator.
Racism is tribalism writ large, and tribalism is intrinsic to the human condition. It is our nature. It is nature for ALL of us, not just Westerners.
Now, as Rose Sayer, Katherine Hepburn's character in the African Queen, said: "Nature, Mr. Allnut, is what we are put in this world to rise above."
Yes, it is our nature to be racist, but we can transcend our nature. We can be better people than that. Sometimes we succeed, sometimes we fail. But no matter how natural racism may be, to wallow in it is a disgrace.
Farting is natural too, that doesn't make it right to do it in a crowded elevator.
34
@31, population boomed and contracted dramatically before 1500; some people think the population of Europe as a whole fell by HALF, partly because of the Black Death, but partly because of extreme agricultural instability. Most of Europe didn't regain its medieval peak population until almost modern times -- 19th century. How many total? 100 million, then collapsing to 35 million, maybe 50 million?
European culture -- Greek democracy, yadda yadda -- was DEAD by then. There's a reason they call them the Dark Ages.
It was traditional for vast numbers of people to starve to death before the potato. Monuments to the potato have been erected in Austria and Croatia. Ireland's relationship to the potato needs no introduction. You can't live on a diet of just wheat; you can on a diet of just potatoes. The potato made modern European societies possible.
Yes, Europe had kings and churches before then -- weak ones. By the time the age of exploration began, when the Portuguese started cruising down the coast of Africa, the state of European "civilization" was a clump of mud -- inferior to that of the "savages" of the places they conquered, often markedly so. And they didn't conquer those people with their sparkling wits or philosophy books; they conquered them with guns. And disease.
Before the age of exploration was the age of crusades against the Muslims, who advanced far into Europe and had again a much superior civilization to the Europeans. The mud-slappers of Londinium and Paris in 1200 or whenever, compared to the glories of Granada and Cordoba and Constantinople -- pathetic! The real birth of Western racism is in the conflict with Arabs as much as it is in African slavery.
More than that, the entire European social world was a system of relationships that accommodated people racially from the very beginning. There were no "white" people; the concept of "white" didn't mean anything until centuries later. The Portuguese weren't "white", they were Portuguese; and before there were systems of slave-holding there were systems of trade with the far East that were locally (and racially) based. The first European slaves were Slavs (hence the name), along with black Africans (and plenty of white people, Englishmen even) brought originally by Arab traders across the Sahara long before they came on ships as well as markets throughout Europe. Slavery was different then (not hereditary, for instance) but the distinctions between people always took on a racial component.
More...
European culture -- Greek democracy, yadda yadda -- was DEAD by then. There's a reason they call them the Dark Ages.
It was traditional for vast numbers of people to starve to death before the potato. Monuments to the potato have been erected in Austria and Croatia. Ireland's relationship to the potato needs no introduction. You can't live on a diet of just wheat; you can on a diet of just potatoes. The potato made modern European societies possible.
Yes, Europe had kings and churches before then -- weak ones. By the time the age of exploration began, when the Portuguese started cruising down the coast of Africa, the state of European "civilization" was a clump of mud -- inferior to that of the "savages" of the places they conquered, often markedly so. And they didn't conquer those people with their sparkling wits or philosophy books; they conquered them with guns. And disease.
Before the age of exploration was the age of crusades against the Muslims, who advanced far into Europe and had again a much superior civilization to the Europeans. The mud-slappers of Londinium and Paris in 1200 or whenever, compared to the glories of Granada and Cordoba and Constantinople -- pathetic! The real birth of Western racism is in the conflict with Arabs as much as it is in African slavery.
More than that, the entire European social world was a system of relationships that accommodated people racially from the very beginning. There were no "white" people; the concept of "white" didn't mean anything until centuries later. The Portuguese weren't "white", they were Portuguese; and before there were systems of slave-holding there were systems of trade with the far East that were locally (and racially) based. The first European slaves were Slavs (hence the name), along with black Africans (and plenty of white people, Englishmen even) brought originally by Arab traders across the Sahara long before they came on ships as well as markets throughout Europe. Slavery was different then (not hereditary, for instance) but the distinctions between people always took on a racial component.
35
race conversations on the internet these days
"You're a racist! Everybody is racist! Racist, racist, racist! You're all so racisty racist, it's just, ugh! Everything about you and what you know is racist!"
'No, I am not racist. Because I don't exhibit any outwardly racist behavior and do not approve of those who do, clearly I am a post-racial saint who in no way contributes to or benefits from institutional racism, even in ways that are complex, deep-seated and subtle. Furthermore I object to any attempt whatseover to possibly illuminate these hidden sources of institutional racism, so sure am I of my sainthood.'
"No, you're wrong! You're the worst of the bunch! You're soooo racist! You totally are! You're what's wrong with America! You make me sick, you double-Hitler!"
'No, YOU'RE the racist by calling ME a racist!'
"Yes I am racist because everybody is racist! We're all awful! But you're more awful than I am, so you go to hell!"
"You're a racist! Everybody is racist! Racist, racist, racist! You're all so racisty racist, it's just, ugh! Everything about you and what you know is racist!"
'No, I am not racist. Because I don't exhibit any outwardly racist behavior and do not approve of those who do, clearly I am a post-racial saint who in no way contributes to or benefits from institutional racism, even in ways that are complex, deep-seated and subtle. Furthermore I object to any attempt whatseover to possibly illuminate these hidden sources of institutional racism, so sure am I of my sainthood.'
"No, you're wrong! You're the worst of the bunch! You're soooo racist! You totally are! You're what's wrong with America! You make me sick, you double-Hitler!"
'No, YOU'RE the racist by calling ME a racist!'
"Yes I am racist because everybody is racist! We're all awful! But you're more awful than I am, so you go to hell!"
37
Where the fuck does Jen say racism is a specifically Western establishment? Where the fuck does Fnarf say that either? Who the fuck is giving racism outside of the West a fucking pass!? Christ on a raft, people! If you live in the West, you are heir to a heritage, which, like any heritage is in some respects shameful. Saying "well everyone else does it, therefore: so what?" is bullshit deflection and mitigation. Knock it the fuck off, you are making it that much harder to learn from our mistakes. Racism and exploitation aren't unique to the West? Yeah, and water is wet.
38
Fnarf. You're rambling. Yes. I read Guns,Germs, and Steel, too. And Cod.
You said something blindingly silly and now your shot gunning a bunch of barely related porato trivia to cover for it.
Europe had a several advanced civilizations long before Porteugese cod boats trailed the Atlantic. Civilizations cycle. Just like they did in North Africa and the New World. The ones we conquered there were not the first, either. The notion that Europe would have vanished into obscurity if it wasn't stealing shit is idiotic. Well, unless you confess to the truth about ALL civilization.
Slavery, violence, and exploitation are a necessary component of Pre-modern civilization to accumulate wealth (another way of saying labor). Everywhere. This is the ugly reality of humanity.
All this hindsight moralizing is simplistic bullshit. It's basically the white liberal version of a dog whistle to signal "I'M NOT A RACIST!" to other liberals. Yes. Racism is bad. Slavery. Bad. We don't need to qualify every discussion with the obvious. We likewise don't need indict all 800 years of European history to deconstruct what one moron is doing today.
The stolen potato has fuck all to do with a genital mutilation cake. Wow. There is sentence nobody has ever written before.
You said something blindingly silly and now your shot gunning a bunch of barely related porato trivia to cover for it.
Europe had a several advanced civilizations long before Porteugese cod boats trailed the Atlantic. Civilizations cycle. Just like they did in North Africa and the New World. The ones we conquered there were not the first, either. The notion that Europe would have vanished into obscurity if it wasn't stealing shit is idiotic. Well, unless you confess to the truth about ALL civilization.
Slavery, violence, and exploitation are a necessary component of Pre-modern civilization to accumulate wealth (another way of saying labor). Everywhere. This is the ugly reality of humanity.
All this hindsight moralizing is simplistic bullshit. It's basically the white liberal version of a dog whistle to signal "I'M NOT A RACIST!" to other liberals. Yes. Racism is bad. Slavery. Bad. We don't need to qualify every discussion with the obvious. We likewise don't need indict all 800 years of European history to deconstruct what one moron is doing today.
The stolen potato has fuck all to do with a genital mutilation cake. Wow. There is sentence nobody has ever written before.
39
@9 Almost all of the wealth of America was/is acquired either by theft or slavery -- at the point of a gun or selling guns to both sides of any conflict. This is what makes all our fancy, commenting, standard-of-living possible.
Thanks for posting the link to the interview with the artist, Makunde Linde. This seems to me a performance artist losing control of an audience. If it had been Yoko Ono or Linda Marie Montano screaming, I doubt anyone would have found it titter-worthy. If the artist's piece was an attempt to start a new global conversation about female genital mutilation and racism, then well done. I think he fits in well with Koon's tradition of racial grotesques and high sheen surfaces (Michael Jackson and Bubbles) and Serrano's Piss Christ insurrection and the elephant dung and photograph of female genitalia adorned The Holy Virgin Mary
by Chris Ofili, who is of Nigerian descent.
All he was asked to do was design a cake. I think he succeeded with the race and mutilation issue and perhaps failed the gender switch needed to command attention, especially considering his audience.
Thanks for posting the link to the interview with the artist, Makunde Linde. This seems to me a performance artist losing control of an audience. If it had been Yoko Ono or Linda Marie Montano screaming, I doubt anyone would have found it titter-worthy. If the artist's piece was an attempt to start a new global conversation about female genital mutilation and racism, then well done. I think he fits in well with Koon's tradition of racial grotesques and high sheen surfaces (Michael Jackson and Bubbles) and Serrano's Piss Christ insurrection and the elephant dung and photograph of female genitalia adorned The Holy Virgin Mary
by Chris Ofili, who is of Nigerian descent.
All he was asked to do was design a cake. I think he succeeded with the race and mutilation issue and perhaps failed the gender switch needed to command attention, especially considering his audience.
40
@37
Okay. Great. I agree. So why is all of western civilization now responsible for this cake?
And since humanity has all done all this terrible shit will Jen Graves ever place another culture under this same microscope? Or is Western Civilization just that much worse? Maybe Aztec slavery when deconstructing Mezo-American art? Something. I dunno.
You don't get little bored at being the villain in every story? I find it pretty lazy and simplistic.
Okay. Great. I agree. So why is all of western civilization now responsible for this cake?
And since humanity has all done all this terrible shit will Jen Graves ever place another culture under this same microscope? Or is Western Civilization just that much worse? Maybe Aztec slavery when deconstructing Mezo-American art? Something. I dunno.
You don't get little bored at being the villain in every story? I find it pretty lazy and simplistic.
41
A black male artist in Sweden makes a performance art piece protesting genital mutilation and we are whining about it in Seattle.
Have they found Danny Vega's killers yet?
Why does Marion Barry's hateful anti-Asian rhetoric not cause the same outrage as what an African artist in Sweden does? This kind of rhetoric has caused scores of hate crimes. It's the same thing Sharpton did in the 90's and it caused hate crimes and racist attitudes against Asians on both coasts. Where the outrage? Are you going to tell me if a Seattle City Council member said all blacks "needed to go" from his district because all they do is "exploit" he would still have a job? It would make headlines all over the planet. And the audience cheered Barry's remarks about ethnic cleansing Asians from his district too. Some outrage, please? Don't expect me to get all wet eyed with rage over something that happenes in fucking Sweden while this sort of hate speech by incumbent officials gets a free pass. He's also a democrat. I thought democrats were super sensitive about racism. Guess not.
Have they found Danny Vega's killers yet?
Why does Marion Barry's hateful anti-Asian rhetoric not cause the same outrage as what an African artist in Sweden does? This kind of rhetoric has caused scores of hate crimes. It's the same thing Sharpton did in the 90's and it caused hate crimes and racist attitudes against Asians on both coasts. Where the outrage? Are you going to tell me if a Seattle City Council member said all blacks "needed to go" from his district because all they do is "exploit" he would still have a job? It would make headlines all over the planet. And the audience cheered Barry's remarks about ethnic cleansing Asians from his district too. Some outrage, please? Don't expect me to get all wet eyed with rage over something that happenes in fucking Sweden while this sort of hate speech by incumbent officials gets a free pass. He's also a democrat. I thought democrats were super sensitive about racism. Guess not.
42
A male artist of African decent in Sweden makes a performance art piece protesting genital mutilation by African males and we are whining about how racist whites are because of it in Seattle?
Have they found Danny Vega's killers yet?
Why does Marion Barry's hateful anti-Asian rhetoric not cause the same outrage as what an African artist in Sweden does? This kind of rhetoric has caused scores of hate crimes. It's the same thing Sharpton did in the 90's and it caused hate crimes and racist attitudes against Asians on both coasts. Where the outrage? Are you going to tell me if a Seattle City Council member said all blacks "needed to go" from his district because all they do is "exploit" he would still have a job? It would make headlines all over the planet. And the audience cheered Barry's remarks about ethnic cleansing Asians from his district too. Some outrage, please? Don't expect me to get all wet eyed with rage over something that happenes in fucking Sweden while this sort of hate speech by incumbent officials gets a free pass. He's also a democrat. I thought democrats were super sensitive about racism. Guess not.
Have they found Danny Vega's killers yet?
Why does Marion Barry's hateful anti-Asian rhetoric not cause the same outrage as what an African artist in Sweden does? This kind of rhetoric has caused scores of hate crimes. It's the same thing Sharpton did in the 90's and it caused hate crimes and racist attitudes against Asians on both coasts. Where the outrage? Are you going to tell me if a Seattle City Council member said all blacks "needed to go" from his district because all they do is "exploit" he would still have a job? It would make headlines all over the planet. And the audience cheered Barry's remarks about ethnic cleansing Asians from his district too. Some outrage, please? Don't expect me to get all wet eyed with rage over something that happenes in fucking Sweden while this sort of hate speech by incumbent officials gets a free pass. He's also a democrat. I thought democrats were super sensitive about racism. Guess not.
45
Every culture and region in the world was founded on the backs of its local or imported minority groups: There is no ethnic group in history that has not practiced slavery and not subjected other ethnic peoples to atrocious acts.
Western culture does not have a monopoly on racism or the subjugation of its minority classes. It is a world-wide phenomena, and I, for one, am really looking forward to the day that Seattle whites just lay off of this subject. Us minorities, really can take care of ourselves, I know it's tempting to reach out and pull us up from the gutter in which you believe we live, but we don't live in the gutter, and the lives we live are up to us and only us. Just please move on. You don't have to keep feeling bad about what racism has done in this country, for surely, you are educated enough to know that world history is largely the same in every corner of this planet. People eat, breathe, sleep, shit, fuck, and shit on minorities, all over the world, it's not just America, or England or Sweden.
I'm so sick of all the white guilt in Seattle. Why don't the white people let us Mexicans and other ethnic peoples to take of ourselves? Seriously, quit punishing yourself for your perceived advantage, because being Mexican hasn't hurt my family one single bit (save the time when my dad got into it with a racist cop).
In the end, I think that rallying for us minorities is racism: We really do not need your help. We are completely capable of fighting our own battles. Just be our friends and the rest is history.
Western culture does not have a monopoly on racism or the subjugation of its minority classes. It is a world-wide phenomena, and I, for one, am really looking forward to the day that Seattle whites just lay off of this subject. Us minorities, really can take care of ourselves, I know it's tempting to reach out and pull us up from the gutter in which you believe we live, but we don't live in the gutter, and the lives we live are up to us and only us. Just please move on. You don't have to keep feeling bad about what racism has done in this country, for surely, you are educated enough to know that world history is largely the same in every corner of this planet. People eat, breathe, sleep, shit, fuck, and shit on minorities, all over the world, it's not just America, or England or Sweden.
I'm so sick of all the white guilt in Seattle. Why don't the white people let us Mexicans and other ethnic peoples to take of ourselves? Seriously, quit punishing yourself for your perceived advantage, because being Mexican hasn't hurt my family one single bit (save the time when my dad got into it with a racist cop).
In the end, I think that rallying for us minorities is racism: We really do not need your help. We are completely capable of fighting our own battles. Just be our friends and the rest is history.
46
Uh oh. When the guy who wants to bring back Hitler says he likes you it's time to reconsider every position you've ever taken.
47
@39 STOP! Some people are offended by this artist's work, so it should not be engaged in any fashion other than complete rejection!
I know fuck-all about modern art, but even I was thinking about some of the examples you mentioned. I'm disappointed that SLOG would have so many of the "I don't like it - it should be destroyed" philistine crowd giving their kneejerk reactions and armchair historical theories.
I know fuck-all about modern art, but even I was thinking about some of the examples you mentioned. I'm disappointed that SLOG would have so many of the "I don't like it - it should be destroyed" philistine crowd giving their kneejerk reactions and armchair historical theories.
48
Everyone remember Andreas Serrano's Piss Christ? You think any Museum or art gallery would show it if it was Piss Mohammad? Offending some people is more offensive than offending others according to "equality" activists.
Charles Kraft has made some work that is as offensive towards blacks and Jews as this. Why does Jen focus on the offense of an African artist in Sweden while being silent about Kraft. Isn't he a Holocaust denier? Any word, Jen?
Charles Kraft has made some work that is as offensive towards blacks and Jews as this. Why does Jen focus on the offense of an African artist in Sweden while being silent about Kraft. Isn't he a Holocaust denier? Any word, Jen?
50
@45
so what you're saying is that us white people shouldn't try to solve racism? that's totally counter intuitive to my understanding that as a white person I should be running the fucking show.
so what you're saying is that us white people shouldn't try to solve racism? that's totally counter intuitive to my understanding that as a white person I should be running the fucking show.
52
in all seriousness though, I would prefer to have received this story (and the outrage attached) from an person of African descent and/or victim of FGM. that would frame it a lot better than a Seattle lib blog.
this installation sounded ridiculous and offensive, but that's all it needs to be to me. I don't think I or any of my immediate associates will be creating any art in the same vein any time soon, nor attending any state dinners where it might by chance occur. think I'm gonna go get a haircut now.
this installation sounded ridiculous and offensive, but that's all it needs to be to me. I don't think I or any of my immediate associates will be creating any art in the same vein any time soon, nor attending any state dinners where it might by chance occur. think I'm gonna go get a haircut now.
53
@40, Yes, try to get me to say something absolutist like "this is why all of Western civilization is responsible for this cake". Nah. I actually don't think the cake is racist. If that cake is racist, then so are Kara Walker's silhouettes. Makode Linde got the lily-white Swedish culture minister to take a slice out of the "African Cake" represented by the racist caricature (created by Westerners) of an African woman. I won't bother to unpack that right now, but it was at the very least some top-tier trolling. Here we are, along with the rest of the internet, politely chatting about racism. Unfortunately, this was ostensibly ~*about*~ fgm, and here we are, along with the rest of the internet, politely chatting about racism.
I'm not going to speak for Jen Graves. If she were to write about Mesoamerican art, and did fail to bring up Aztec slavery if it were relevant, that would indeed be something to complain about. Personally, I don't begrudge her that she writes mostly about the fucked-up shit here in the West as she a) lives in the West, and b) can have the most impact in the West.
@49, Let me reword that first sentence: "Where the fuck does Jen say racism is a unique trait of the West?" Jen does not say this.
I'm not going to speak for Jen Graves. If she were to write about Mesoamerican art, and did fail to bring up Aztec slavery if it were relevant, that would indeed be something to complain about. Personally, I don't begrudge her that she writes mostly about the fucked-up shit here in the West as she a) lives in the West, and b) can have the most impact in the West.
@49, Let me reword that first sentence: "Where the fuck does Jen say racism is a unique trait of the West?" Jen does not say this.
55
How I wish we could all see your faces, you brave boys typing so manfully and foul. Thanks for the jokes, anyway. Appreciating you Jen, for continuing to speak truth to hipster denial. Vast and stupid as it is. More power to you.
56
STUUUPIDDDDD
There is no effective starting point for a meaningful discussion on race. Slog commenters are a particularly educated and liberal bunch (from what I can tell by the content of our statements and the lack of errors within them) and we still get sandy about it.
@7 I think, who has only commented once, I believe nails it on the head, albeit far more succinct than I am about to. You cannot make human brains stop seeing differences. We are hardwired to notice when groups are different from the ones we belong to; "own race bias" is scientifically documented (in which people think members of other races all look similar). This is not an excuse but an explanation, just like every other shitty atrocity that humans have taken part in. Human nature is kinda shitty, guys. We let people die in front of us if there are several others around. We blindly follow orders from people we perceive to be in a position of authority. We act how we think we're "supposed" to. We conform to the behaviors around us, especially in high stress situations.
Do I believe something should be done about subtle institutional racism? Yes. Do I think this will be accomplished by accusing each other all of being racist all the time? No. I believe it will occur over time, gradually; cultures evolve and change like organisms. What will I do? Try to view everyone as an individual and treat people with the same degree of respect in my life. In a practical, non-theoretical, off-the-internet manner, I will do what is in my power to afford similar treatment to all people regardless of race. And this goes for bad treatment too. If you cut me off in traffic and you're any race, I'll talk shit about you under my breath.
These arguments just dig us further into a hole where we each think the person to our right is worse than we are.
Is it racist that I refer to my apartment complex as Little Tijuana? There are a lot of Mexican families here. My Mexican friends know I call it that; they think it's funny too. Does that make a difference? WHAT THE FUCK DOES "RACIST" MEAN?
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There is no effective starting point for a meaningful discussion on race. Slog commenters are a particularly educated and liberal bunch (from what I can tell by the content of our statements and the lack of errors within them) and we still get sandy about it.
@7 I think, who has only commented once, I believe nails it on the head, albeit far more succinct than I am about to. You cannot make human brains stop seeing differences. We are hardwired to notice when groups are different from the ones we belong to; "own race bias" is scientifically documented (in which people think members of other races all look similar). This is not an excuse but an explanation, just like every other shitty atrocity that humans have taken part in. Human nature is kinda shitty, guys. We let people die in front of us if there are several others around. We blindly follow orders from people we perceive to be in a position of authority. We act how we think we're "supposed" to. We conform to the behaviors around us, especially in high stress situations.
Do I believe something should be done about subtle institutional racism? Yes. Do I think this will be accomplished by accusing each other all of being racist all the time? No. I believe it will occur over time, gradually; cultures evolve and change like organisms. What will I do? Try to view everyone as an individual and treat people with the same degree of respect in my life. In a practical, non-theoretical, off-the-internet manner, I will do what is in my power to afford similar treatment to all people regardless of race. And this goes for bad treatment too. If you cut me off in traffic and you're any race, I'll talk shit about you under my breath.
These arguments just dig us further into a hole where we each think the person to our right is worse than we are.
Is it racist that I refer to my apartment complex as Little Tijuana? There are a lot of Mexican families here. My Mexican friends know I call it that; they think it's funny too. Does that make a difference? WHAT THE FUCK DOES "RACIST" MEAN?
57
Western culture wasn't founded in racism you stupid bitch. The foundation of Western culture, while founded upon Eastern culture, is necessarily a reaction and opposition to the same.
Western literature begins with Homer. Perhaps it's best to start there, with the Greeks, rather than the Imperialist Age. And, speaking of Homer, I've read to completion in Greek and in several translations, all of both the Iliad and the Odyssey. Racism isn't a theme of the narrative; the heroic ethos, honestly, has very little place for racism--perhaps classism--but honor goes to the one can that can prevail, or the one who at least shows his merits through courage. The Iliad even presents an absolute mess of nations fighting for whatever side, and for the most part, Homer does not deride his players honor as they face death on the battlefield.
Now while I said that Western culture is based upon Eastern culture, I would say that the extent to which is a spectrum. There is the so-far predominantly mysterious influence of the Indo-Europeans which produced differently influences in both Western and Eastern cultures.
Incidentally, slavery and racism are two different things. There have been very many different practices of slavery. It can be seen as an extension of the use of beasts of burden to advance civilization. Not talking morality; this is merely why slavery existed in the first place. Besides, all the moralizing infants out in the world today, sometimes it's nice to have a little more frankness.
Western literature begins with Homer. Perhaps it's best to start there, with the Greeks, rather than the Imperialist Age. And, speaking of Homer, I've read to completion in Greek and in several translations, all of both the Iliad and the Odyssey. Racism isn't a theme of the narrative; the heroic ethos, honestly, has very little place for racism--perhaps classism--but honor goes to the one can that can prevail, or the one who at least shows his merits through courage. The Iliad even presents an absolute mess of nations fighting for whatever side, and for the most part, Homer does not deride his players honor as they face death on the battlefield.
Now while I said that Western culture is based upon Eastern culture, I would say that the extent to which is a spectrum. There is the so-far predominantly mysterious influence of the Indo-Europeans which produced differently influences in both Western and Eastern cultures.
Incidentally, slavery and racism are two different things. There have been very many different practices of slavery. It can be seen as an extension of the use of beasts of burden to advance civilization. Not talking morality; this is merely why slavery existed in the first place. Besides, all the moralizing infants out in the world today, sometimes it's nice to have a little more frankness.
58
24 and 26, you make it difficult to consider your no-doubt intelligent and insightful points on the subject by referring to Graves as 'dumb cunt' and 'bitch', respectively.
It's hard to take any argument you might make seriously when you lead like that.
It's hard to take any argument you might make seriously when you lead like that.
59
Umm..."Western" culture was not founded on racism, American culture was. Racism did not really exist before colonialism and Europe's attempt to commercially dominate the world.
61
@24, 26 -- I see the "bitch and cunt" brigade is out in full force, and fewer than 30 comments into the thread, no less!
62
Thank God Jen heard about this before Mudede. One can only imagine the inane bloviations it'd produce in him. Well, we can only imagine until he reposts this tomorrow, that is.
63
@57 Are you insane? Homer is incredibly painful to read to a modern sensibility, because it is *all about* racism, and misogyny, and slavery, and mass murder. Achilles spends the whole book moping while people die because someone else took the slave he wanted to be the one to rape!
64
As a Swede living in Sweden: yes. Yes to all the questions.
But the point of the art piece was to expose racism - it did just that. They even confess to tricking Blubby (the minister of culture who was popularly renamed "Blubby" for her absurd conservative statements) into the scene to expose it.
About Swedens history and funding: yes and yes. What do you guys think? We lived on pigfarming during the 1800eds? Its a simplification but its not untrue (like @57 seems to claim)
But the piece is also about occuring travesties in North Africa - especially Lundin Oil and the corroption that leads high up in Swedish society. Blubbys party (The right wing Moderaterna) has a high ranking member in Carl Bildt who as a foreign minister aswell as high ranking former chair man of Lundin Oil has helped the Ogadden area into complete civil war and stopped journalists from investigating it.
But it gets trickier: since "black" as a collective group is without actuall collective force (the African Swedish Association for example have a long standing feud with Somali swedes and Eritrean Swedes) and it only defines someone as an "outsider" (to western "white" culture which too is shattered and not as easily defined) - Until they open their mouths and their background is clear and noticeble. Racism is just more ethnic in definition.
Also since we never had slaves HERE (we where an active part in the slave trade but never imported slaves) there never where a black minority in Sweden until the 70's with African American soldiers and later Eritrean and Somalian immigrants. So there never where a focus for racism towards "black" as a collective group. There was exotofication and stereotyping (the dictionary Nordisk Familjebok, for example who amongst the various types of African People wrote that "some have arms that pass their knees and live in trees") but the active hatred just had no focus and was irrelevant - and focused instead on polacs, danes, russians, people from the Balkans and middle easterners.
Also, as a Swede: thank the fucking gods for this art piece. Do you guys know how tricky there is to drag something as huge as institutional racism up on a political stage defined by common agreement and quiet consensus? This shit fest is what we need.
Now we only need someone to make an art piece about institutional fascism - the wholesale of our collective property - and the lutheran ideals of "suffering in silence at your job" and we may get something done for once in over 30 damn years!
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But the point of the art piece was to expose racism - it did just that. They even confess to tricking Blubby (the minister of culture who was popularly renamed "Blubby" for her absurd conservative statements) into the scene to expose it.
About Swedens history and funding: yes and yes. What do you guys think? We lived on pigfarming during the 1800eds? Its a simplification but its not untrue (like @57 seems to claim)
But the piece is also about occuring travesties in North Africa - especially Lundin Oil and the corroption that leads high up in Swedish society. Blubbys party (The right wing Moderaterna) has a high ranking member in Carl Bildt who as a foreign minister aswell as high ranking former chair man of Lundin Oil has helped the Ogadden area into complete civil war and stopped journalists from investigating it.
But it gets trickier: since "black" as a collective group is without actuall collective force (the African Swedish Association for example have a long standing feud with Somali swedes and Eritrean Swedes) and it only defines someone as an "outsider" (to western "white" culture which too is shattered and not as easily defined) - Until they open their mouths and their background is clear and noticeble. Racism is just more ethnic in definition.
Also since we never had slaves HERE (we where an active part in the slave trade but never imported slaves) there never where a black minority in Sweden until the 70's with African American soldiers and later Eritrean and Somalian immigrants. So there never where a focus for racism towards "black" as a collective group. There was exotofication and stereotyping (the dictionary Nordisk Familjebok, for example who amongst the various types of African People wrote that "some have arms that pass their knees and live in trees") but the active hatred just had no focus and was irrelevant - and focused instead on polacs, danes, russians, people from the Balkans and middle easterners.
Also, as a Swede: thank the fucking gods for this art piece. Do you guys know how tricky there is to drag something as huge as institutional racism up on a political stage defined by common agreement and quiet consensus? This shit fest is what we need.
Now we only need someone to make an art piece about institutional fascism - the wholesale of our collective property - and the lutheran ideals of "suffering in silence at your job" and we may get something done for once in over 30 damn years!
65
African culture is predicated on breathing in and out.
Asian culture presumes that people will have to eat to stay alive.
If it is true of all people then to make specific reference to a single group of people and say that it is a characteristic of theirs. When Ms Graves wrote "Western culture was founded on racism." - and particularly by writing it alone in a paragraph all by itself - the implication was clear that Western culture is somehow special in this regard. Those who are trying weasel on her behalf, 54, I'm looking at you, are suggesting that she is a dreadful writer.
The statement is silly and needs correction because it excuses the racism of non-Westerners by suggesting that it is a uniquely Western trait. It is not.
Asian culture presumes that people will have to eat to stay alive.
If it is true of all people then to make specific reference to a single group of people and say that it is a characteristic of theirs. When Ms Graves wrote "Western culture was founded on racism." - and particularly by writing it alone in a paragraph all by itself - the implication was clear that Western culture is somehow special in this regard. Those who are trying weasel on her behalf, 54, I'm looking at you, are suggesting that she is a dreadful writer.
The statement is silly and needs correction because it excuses the racism of non-Westerners by suggesting that it is a uniquely Western trait. It is not.
67
@ 57, I see you call Jen a "dumb bitch" and immediately and forever dismiss everything you have to say. There's NEVER a need to go there.
@ 52, I again refer back to the quote I cite. Note how Jen made it a stand-alone paragraph, which shows that Jen intended it to be her most important point. Note the general context of white guilt that conversations like this exist in. Note that condemnations of our culture are de rigueur in certain arts and critical circles while others are elevated. No, she doesn't do that explicitly, but she doesn't have to.
@ 52, I again refer back to the quote I cite. Note how Jen made it a stand-alone paragraph, which shows that Jen intended it to be her most important point. Note the general context of white guilt that conversations like this exist in. Note that condemnations of our culture are de rigueur in certain arts and critical circles while others are elevated. No, she doesn't do that explicitly, but she doesn't have to.
68
@67, I don't think the context you reference is enough to demand your reading without more evidence from the text. If Jen came back to this thread and said "racism is not unique to the West", would you believe that statement to be insincere?
69
@ 68, I can pretty well guarantee that she won't come back and say that, or anything else that will acknowledge that -isms are a fundamentally human problem.
70
I just want to say that I said some pretty harsh things in my earlier post. I don't really have any excuse to be so harsh, I just get sensitive on this issue of race sometimes. I didn't mean to point the finger at Jen, and I need to put my pointy finger in my pocket and keep it there.
Jen Graves is a good, decent, and thoughtful person, and I should have appreciated that she's making an attempt at being considerate and viewing the world from a perspective of a person with a good and loving heart and a genuine concern for the racial wrongs in the historical and contemporary contexts.
Ultimately, please know that if I ever disagree with anyone, that doesn't mean that I don't like them, it just means that I disagree, and I thrive on dialogue, and I use slog and people in person as a sounding board to gauge the issues, in context, and this helps me form my own opinion better. If I call you out because I disagree with you, I will still have a warm smile and firm hug for you next time I see you: I don't take this stuff personally, but sometimes I forget that I have a knack for harshness and I really need to mind my manners better, cuz my momma raised me better than that... I'm never angry when I type here, and I forget that that does not come across because text does not convey tone very accurately.
I'm sorry for being such a dick. I really do respect The Stranger and their writers, and frankly, Jen is rarely harsh or out of control as sometimes undoubtedly happens on slog (from us comment-ers and the slog writers), and every other blog in the world. I want you all to know that I read The Stranger every day not because I hate it, but because I love it, and I like every writer at this paper, even when I vehemently disagree with their position, I still love reading the slog and I still am very happy that The Stranger exists, our city is better with it here.
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Jen Graves is a good, decent, and thoughtful person, and I should have appreciated that she's making an attempt at being considerate and viewing the world from a perspective of a person with a good and loving heart and a genuine concern for the racial wrongs in the historical and contemporary contexts.
Ultimately, please know that if I ever disagree with anyone, that doesn't mean that I don't like them, it just means that I disagree, and I thrive on dialogue, and I use slog and people in person as a sounding board to gauge the issues, in context, and this helps me form my own opinion better. If I call you out because I disagree with you, I will still have a warm smile and firm hug for you next time I see you: I don't take this stuff personally, but sometimes I forget that I have a knack for harshness and I really need to mind my manners better, cuz my momma raised me better than that... I'm never angry when I type here, and I forget that that does not come across because text does not convey tone very accurately.
I'm sorry for being such a dick. I really do respect The Stranger and their writers, and frankly, Jen is rarely harsh or out of control as sometimes undoubtedly happens on slog (from us comment-ers and the slog writers), and every other blog in the world. I want you all to know that I read The Stranger every day not because I hate it, but because I love it, and I like every writer at this paper, even when I vehemently disagree with their position, I still love reading the slog and I still am very happy that The Stranger exists, our city is better with it here.
71
A man of African decent living in Sweden does a performance art piece to highlight the horrors of genital mutilation and the ackwardness of it being addressed by white people. The conclusion is that white women are racist, while there is little anger at the artist and less at those who actually do this barbaric act he was highlighting.
In NYC a couple decades ago there was an exhibit about the Holocaust by primarily Jewish artists. It too had images one could find offensive. As a Jewish person if I was offended I would take it up with the artist rather than scream about how anti-semetic the non-Jewish audience was. Also if the Holocaust was still going on (as genital mutilation is) I would feel grateful for anything that brought the horrors of it public eye, wouldn't you? If there is any racism here it is the "1st world problems" gripe that this was "presented wrong" rather than focusing on the horrors of this act. There is more anger at the white women in the audience then the black men who mutilate women. Telling.
In NYC a couple decades ago there was an exhibit about the Holocaust by primarily Jewish artists. It too had images one could find offensive. As a Jewish person if I was offended I would take it up with the artist rather than scream about how anti-semetic the non-Jewish audience was. Also if the Holocaust was still going on (as genital mutilation is) I would feel grateful for anything that brought the horrors of it public eye, wouldn't you? If there is any racism here it is the "1st world problems" gripe that this was "presented wrong" rather than focusing on the horrors of this act. There is more anger at the white women in the audience then the black men who mutilate women. Telling.
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