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1
Dan - I've been reading you since the first issue of the Stranger. You have shifted attitudes towards gay rights enormously over the last 20 years. I firmly believe Gay Rights is the Civil Rights issue of our time, and that you are literally the greatest Civil Rights leader of this young century. I am very very proud of you.

Your apology over words was kind, but unnecessary. Keep up the fight! - Will
Posted by DawginExile on April 29, 2012 at 9:08 AM · Report this
2
Unfortunately in America there doesn't seem to be a way to honestly speak about Christianity. If you're worried that your remarks were impolitic, they were, but take some comfort in the fact that even if you'd used the word "nonsense" it still would have been wildly offensive to a lot of Christians.

Profanity may be the excuse, but the real reason for the righteous indignation is that taking an angry stand is their only alternative to admitting that their religion has flaws. And admitting that their religion has any imperfections whatsoever is enough to knock it off its special Pedestal of Unassailable Truth. Wait, you mean I have to start deciding for myself what's right and what isn't? Then what's the point of religion?

Not all religious people are like that but enough are.

Posted by Proteus on April 29, 2012 at 9:16 AM · Report this
3
I agree with #1. It is about time these people got called on their hypocracy. Keep up the good work.
Posted by kevin11 on April 29, 2012 at 9:17 AM · Report this
Fifty-Two-Eighty 5
I'm behind you all the way, of course. Never haven't been. But I've got my own battles to fight. Excuse me if I take a pass on this one.
Posted by Fifty-Two-Eighty http://www.nra.org on April 29, 2012 at 9:21 AM · Report this
Supreme Ruler Of The Universe 6

The Old Testament sources on morality that you quote can be perceived as potentially misleading, but that is because Christians have different views on their purpose.

These views range from it being part of a moral cannon, to simply being a lead in to the Old Testament, to the New Testament completely superseding it. For example, if I wanted to criticize America, should I refer to the Articles of Confederation...or the Constitution (3/5ths of a man) before civil rights? What would be the point?

In the end, it seems clear that true "Christ"-ian begins and ends with the words in the New Testament.
Posted by Supreme Ruler Of The Universe http://_ on April 29, 2012 at 9:24 AM · Report this
happyfella73 7
One of the great pleasures of being a Seattlite for close to twenty years, is knowing that Dan Savage always has the LBGTs communties' back. Thank you Dan, for being a seemingly tireless leader and spokesman for oppressed in this country.
Posted by happyfella73 on April 29, 2012 at 9:26 AM · Report this
8
Oh, go ahead and call Christianity itself bullshit, Dan. We won't be mad.
Posted by catsnbanjos on April 29, 2012 at 9:31 AM · Report this
scary tyler moore 9
that's 'canon', not 'cannon', @6. do you proofread your comments before posting?
Posted by scary tyler moore http://pushymcshove.blogspot.com/ on April 29, 2012 at 9:33 AM · Report this
Vince 10
They've been persecuting gay people for centuries. Too bad if they don't like their beliefs called "bullshit". Free speech isn't only what Christians like or get to have. Let them try to muzzle you. STOP APOLOGIZING! Tell them to fuck off. Even if it means your teevee contract? Is that who is making you cry uncle???
Posted by Vince on April 29, 2012 at 9:35 AM · Report this
Sargon Bighorn 11
Why you are backing down is beyond me. But I do understand to apologize for saying what one really thinks, after the fact is very popular these days. All the beautiful people are doing it.
Posted by Sargon Bighorn on April 29, 2012 at 9:38 AM · Report this
Rillion 12
I don't think there is anything wrong with calling someone's religion "bullshit," but the problem with doing that here is that it suggests that a) Christianity is somehow unique amongst religions in being bullshit, and b) it being bullshit in general is the reason that so many Christians are anti-gay. You certainly don't have to buy into Christianity's bullshit specifically in order to be religiously bigoted against gays, and there are a load of Christians who aren't bigoted against gays. So in order to avoid confusion, it's important to clarify what you're calling bullshit in this particular instance, and why. Which you just did, incredibly well. Thank you!

That's enough italics for me for one day.
Posted by Rillion http://cheapsignals.blogspot.com/ on April 29, 2012 at 9:38 AM · Report this
Matt from Denver 14
@ 10, I see no uncle-crying here.
Posted by Matt from Denver on April 29, 2012 at 9:41 AM · Report this
15
The day you start cleaning up your speech is the day you start losing. Please don't let them guilt you into toning your rhetoric down. Don't let them dictate or alter your behavior or message.
Posted by jade on April 29, 2012 at 9:42 AM · Report this
16
The walkout was planned from the very beginning, in a pathetic attempt to show that gays are the real bullies. They failed epically. If these students' beliefs are so fragile that they fear being challenged on them, then perhaps they don't really have very strong beliefs to begin with. I would have referred to them as cowards instead of pansy-assed. Everything you said was 100% factual. If they don't agree with your message, they should be able to refute everything you've said. Instead they did the childish thing and symbolically stuck their fingers in their ears, in the hopes that they can still pretend that their beliefs are pure and just. The only ones they're fooling are themselves.

Great job, Dan. Keep up the good fight.
Posted by David in Houston on April 29, 2012 at 9:53 AM · Report this
Rillion 17
Actually, I should not have commented at all without having watched the video of what you really said. In no way did you call Christianity bullshit. Walking out was pansy-assed, and the people griping about the statement that there is bullshit in the Bible that good people ignore because they are good people and calling it an "attack on Christianity/Christians" (either way) are morons. They are not good people.
Posted by Rillion http://cheapsignals.blogspot.com/ on April 29, 2012 at 9:54 AM · Report this
Supreme Ruler Of The Universe 18

#9

I was actually referring to the fictional detective Cannon.

http://ctva.biz/US/Crime/Cannon_WilliamC…

This has been a Quinn Martin production.
Posted by Supreme Ruler Of The Universe http://_ on April 29, 2012 at 9:55 AM · Report this
19
@16

Yes, when I watched, it was obvious that they'd planned it from the beginning because they were all smiling and giggling. One kid even gave another a "thumbs up." If they'd truly felt "bullied," that wouldn't have been the case.
Posted by jade on April 29, 2012 at 9:58 AM · Report this
VoenixRising 20
I too agree with #1. It's WAY past time Christianity gets called on its bullshit. Keep up the good work, Dan. NEVER back down.

The sooner our civilization is done with the need to believe in invisible sky fairies, the better off we'll all be.
Posted by VoenixRising http://voenixrising.com on April 29, 2012 at 9:59 AM · Report this
Supreme Ruler Of The Universe 21

Did you guys know Dan Savage is from the 60s?

Daniel Keenan "Dan" Savage (born October 7, 1964)[2] is an American author...


I thought he was like 34 or something but he's the same age as my sister.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Savage
Posted by Supreme Ruler Of The Universe http://_ on April 29, 2012 at 10:01 AM · Report this
VoenixRising 22
In full agreement with #1. It's way past time that Christianity gets called out on the utter and complete nonsense and hypocrisy it's passing itself off as these days. It's BULLSHIT and it needs to be screamed from the rooftops. Keep up the fight, Dan, and NEVER back down.

The sooner this civilization is done with the need to believe in invisible sky fairies the better off it will be.
Posted by VoenixRising http://voenixrising.com on April 29, 2012 at 10:02 AM · Report this
Lissa 23
I'm with you Dan, and you paint peeling mouth.
Posted by Lissa on April 29, 2012 at 10:04 AM · Report this
24
This isnt the Rights fault. Shit. They'll use ANYTHING to attack. This is what happens when people with honest convictions based in fact start listening to the over-reactive whines of the language police of the far left. They begin apologizing for the truth. Who ever gets offended most wins!

Why SHOULDN'T you call Christianity bullshit? Why is it that of all philosophical forms religion gets an automatic pass? In the marketplace of ideas ( ain't The Right all about the market proving ground) everything is up for scorn and criticism. Now in one on one discussions avoiding insults and harshness is polite. But speeches are platforms. Not discussions. Stop being a pansy and stop apologizing for having facts and ethics on your side.
Posted by tkc on April 29, 2012 at 10:05 AM · Report this
Catalina Vel-DuRay 25
You did a fine job, Dan. And your response to the "outrage" was more gracious than that handful of prissy teenagers deserved.

As for the adults that put them up to it, I'm sorry they are so insecure in their faith.
Posted by Catalina Vel-DuRay http://www.danlangdon.com on April 29, 2012 at 10:08 AM · Report this
27
Bravo, Dan Savage! Thanks for your honesty, your courage and your apology/clarification. It's a pity it won't be read by the complaining teen "Christianists." But the truths stated by Dan need to be repeated over and over till they hear them. The Bible is full of crap, however much "good" it may have as well.
Posted by Dan Not Savage on April 29, 2012 at 10:14 AM · Report this
truck 28
Apology not necessary.
All I saw was a bunch on young people unwilling to listen to any challenge to the basis of their entire belief system - of course it is going to hurt but it isn't bullying.

Bullying would be to say that all christians are dirty, damned, diseased and immoral; some christians meet some of these criteria some of the time but these words don't define christianity any more than they define homosexuality.
Yet this is essentially what groups like Focus Of The Family believe is an acceptable view to hold - with christian love.
Posted by truck on April 29, 2012 at 10:14 AM · Report this
29
What's the matter Dan? Where does it really hurt? Did daddy up and leave you? Did mommy emasculate you and over-protect you? What is the real root of all your pent-up anger and rage? You're gay because you need other men to validate the existence of your penis and yet... it's never fulfilling enough. You need something more to satisfy to darkest corner of your soul. So, why not beat up on the faith and the people of faith with a paternal Father figure at the helm - the father figure that is missing in your life. Does that make it feel better? Do you feel more fulfilled? Nope! And still, despite all of the attention you get from other misguided souls, you're still not fulfilled. It's okay Dan - even as you unleash your misdirected rage, God the Father still loves you and hopes you and all of your lost followers will find your way home. The doors are always open to join the rest of us sinners who are no better than you. Peace!
Posted by Wumpers on April 29, 2012 at 10:14 AM · Report this
Rillion 30
Wumpers,

If there is a God the Father out there, he must be face-palming hard right now at the assholes and morons presuming to represent him.
Posted by Rillion http://cheapsignals.blogspot.com/ on April 29, 2012 at 10:20 AM · Report this
Mudkips 32
@26 I helped fix your anonymous letter (why is it that you "proud" Christians are always anonymous online ghosts who disappear at the slightest provocation?):

You are a snarky man who must have been bullied by a lot of people growing up. As a Christian I pray for your soul because you are obviously lost if you want to point out the blatant hypocrisy in the Bible to a bunch of High Schoolers. As a Christian I have never once condemned or bullied people for their homosexual tendencies physically or to their face, only verbally to like minded people and while none are around to contradict me. Your use of fact makes me want to pound your (and other gay people's) skull in, but as a Christian I will not stoop to your level as far as this anonymous internet post is concerned.

You really need to go away Dan Savage and stop saying anything so my shitty, Bronze Age ideology can keep going unchallenged since you are the only person I have ever heard talk about the Bible outside of my own bigoted and sheltered family.

Is that what you meant to say? No thanks needed =)
Posted by Mudkips on April 29, 2012 at 10:23 AM · Report this
33
Nice apology, pansy-ass. I never thought you of all people would be capable of such spineless crap. What? are you planning on running for office or something?

A bunch of smug bigots whine loudly in fake outrage at you calling them on their bullshit and you back-pedal like a pandering Democratic politician in a second? This from the guy behind the Santorum bomb?

We get angry when they lie and smear and their answer is to tell us to fuck off. They get angry when we point out the truth and we respond by FUCKING APOLOGISING.

I need to find a new word to call myself because I'm starting to think "liberals" really are weak. Its weakness is ironically the flip side of our biggest strength: diversity and tolerance. Somehow tolerance and respect of people's *rights*, became "anything other than genuflection to all ideas and beliefs, no matter how stupid or harmful is AN ATTACK!"
Posted by Yuriel on April 29, 2012 at 10:28 AM · Report this
34
Nice apology, pansy-ass. I never thought you of all people would be capable of such spineless crap. What? are you planning on running for office or something?

A bunch of smug bigots whine loudly in fake outrage at you calling them on their bullshit and you back-pedal like a pandering Democratic politician in a second? This from the guy behind the Santorum bomb?

We get angry when they lie and smear and their answer is to tell us to fuck off. They get angry when we point out the truth and we respond by FUCKING APOLOGISING.

I need to find a new word to call myself because I'm starting to think "liberals" really are weak. Its weakness is ironically the flip side of our biggest strength: diversity and tolerance. Somehow tolerance and respect of people's *rights*, became "anything other than genuflection to all ideas and beliefs, no matter how stupid or harmful is AN ATTACK!"
Posted by Yuriel on April 29, 2012 at 10:30 AM · Report this
kim in portland 35
@Dan,

Perhaps you should have said that walking out was cowardly. You could have said walking out was un-Biblical, because they are commanded to stand and give an answer. They are told to trust that they will be given the words they need to address you. But this was a staged event. Just like the "Day of Dialogue" that is planned on the Thursday proceeding the "Day of Silence".

The Bible is full of contradictions. Practicing Christians all cherry pick and give selective attention to certain passages. There is nothing wrong with pointing out the hypocrisy of their chosen belief system. Nothing wrong asking them to think critically. There is nothing wrong pointing out that they ignore 600+ Levitical commands. Or pointing out that slavery is socially acceptable within the books of the Bible and has been used as justification. If their feelings got ruffled then that is because deep down their conscience was pricked. Still, I don't think the majority are wounded. No they are enjoying their brief celebrityhood because they walked out on Dan Savage.

Continue the good fight. Keep up the good work.
Posted by kim in portland http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/11/fast-paced_video_provides_a_fu.html on April 29, 2012 at 10:31 AM · Report this
36
The use of "bullshit" and "pansy-assed" gave them an easy target for their tantrum, and made it easier to drum up popular support. They probably would have been upset anyway, but there is no need to make it easier for them.
Posted by wingedkat on April 29, 2012 at 10:39 AM · Report this
jackdee 38
I'm really glad this happened. I'm going to be sharing the video for MONTHS! Thank you, Dan.
Posted by jackdee on April 29, 2012 at 10:41 AM · Report this
39
as a christian myself, i think you have not one thing to apologize for. i'm glad someone with a platform is calling out hypocritical christians on their bullshit. and it IS bullshit. if would be different if you never ever used such foul language (omg, my poor ears!), but for crying out loud! it's your trademark. "pansy-assed" -- i think if you regret that one, it's great you said sorry. and meant it. but bullshit is bullshit and dan savage's stock in trade is to call it out. no apologies.
Posted by martarose on April 29, 2012 at 10:48 AM · Report this
brandon 40
DAN WHAT ARE YOU DOING!? Don't Apologize! The people making the biggest stink are the very ones who needed to hear it. And it was all true. Plus, you've said it all before.

Are you worried about the ratings for your MTV show or something? The people who are making noise right now are not the ones who are potentially watching your show.

THE BIBLE HAS BULLSHIT IN IT, DEAL WITH IT PANSY ASSED BITCHES!

Posted by brandon on April 29, 2012 at 10:49 AM · Report this
41
Relgion is the worship of Death and the refusal to acknowledge sexual pleasure. As such it is your enemy, Dan. It's certainly mine -- and any other thinking person gay or straight. You have nothign to apologize for and a tone and a half to be proud of.
Posted by David Ehrenstein on April 29, 2012 at 10:56 AM · Report this
TVDinner 42
While I'm firmly in the camp that no apology is required here, it's nice to see that Savage had finally learned how to give one. Previous Dan Savage apologies have had a petulant, I-know-I-am-but-you're-worse tone. I lost a lot of respect for him during FatGate, when the apology he offered Lindy West was whiny, "Nu-uh-y," and a discredit to thinking people everywhere.
Posted by TVDinner http:// on April 29, 2012 at 11:03 AM · Report this
Mr_Wright_n_TX 44
Baptists don't apologize to Catholics, Christians don't apologize to Muslims, and Buddhist don't apologize to the Hindu, so why should you apologize to assholes?
Posted by Mr_Wright_n_TX on April 29, 2012 at 11:08 AM · Report this
47
All you people sound like Republicans with your screw-an-apology bluster. It's relatively easy to double-down on your errors. It's a whole lot harder to admit that you're wrong and then apologize.

Saying that the Bible is full of "bullshit" to an audience of students in an assembly about journalism, or school bullying, or whatever it was, is wrong because it is grossly inconsiderate and insulting to Christian students - even if Dan was right in his larger point (which he was). "Bullshit" is an aggressive word. It is the verbal equivalent of shoving you. The reason the fine distinction Dan talks about in this post doesn't hold is that Christianity, or the Christianity of the fundies, with all its looney tenets, is more than a set of believes. It is who they are, their identity. You can't stand in front of a Christian and say that Christianity is bullshit without making the implicit accusation that the Christian, at its best, is a complete idiot and fool for believing it. How can the Christian not be insulted? How can he not feel that his very self is being attacked?

As for the walkout: Dan is a famous guy at this point and the savvier of the students already had an idea of what to expect from him - and an opinion about it. It's perfectly possible that a few of them had decided to walk out as soon as Dan started talking smack about the Bible. My opinion from watching the video is that it wasn't staged at all. The walkout started once Dan had begun tearing into the Bible and it was a long while until the last student left. If it had been planned then they would have all risen en masse as soon as Dan had started talking and left quickly. It wouldn't have been a drawn out procession.

Disagree with that analysis (and I know you will), but how would you feel if the speaker had been that gay-hating, everything-hating American-Taliban preacher-cum-indie rocker from the Midwest who recently did a controversial anti-bullying school program where a number of students rightfully protested, loudly? Would you say that students walking out of one of his presentations were "pansy-assed"? No; you would say that they are courageous for standing for their beliefs and protesting by walking out, and you'd be cheering them if they took their hurt feelings to a court of law.

Well, I say the same thing about the students that walked out. A small minority did; the large hooting mass of them stayed. Being the small, visible minority takes courage. It takes courage to willingly stick out like a sore thumb. I particularly give mad props for the first couple few - in a room of thousands - who stood up and walked out. That demonstrates independent thinking and strong conviction, elements that are needed in a healthy democracy. This holds even if it was staged, which I don't think it was.

And it takes courage and humility to apologize. How many days did we have to wait to get a mea culpa out of Rush Limbaugh? Has Ted Nugent ever apologized? Has Sarah Palin? Michael Savage? Our own lovely registered trolls? All those clowns? They're so insecure and so vested in their bluster that they are afraid to show a little vulnerability. And even here, Dan couldn't apologize without going into "distinctions", like he was qualifying the apology. But I understand. Dan is a man of strength, and it's especially hard for someone of strength to admit that he/she is wrong on something. But Dan did it and we didn't have to wait a week, so I give him credit. Never admitting fault is something that we can expect from the immature figures of the right. We on the left can be the mature adults.
More...
Posted by floater on April 29, 2012 at 11:11 AM · Report this
kristen pawling 48
While I don't feel that you did anything you need to apologize for, I think it's big of you to do so anyway. Maybe the wording could have been different, but hey, with passion sometimes comes cussing.
Posted by kristen pawling http://www.kristenfingpawling.blogspot.com on April 29, 2012 at 11:19 AM · Report this
49
"Love the sinner, hate the sin" is not necessarily applicable to homosexuality, but it is not a meaningless distinction. It's about characterizing behavior rather than people. Love the sinner hate the sin has huge implications in attitudes towards criminals, for example. Without this philosophy, far fewer people would support paying for reeducation programs in prisons, stopping the sin by supporting the sinner.

The real problem with it is that, like many religious tenets, it should be acted upon rather than quoted in people's faces in a self-righteous tone.
Posted by DRF on April 29, 2012 at 11:19 AM · Report this
seatackled 50
It's a classy explanation and apology. None of that "sorry to anyone offended" crap.

Posted by seatackled on April 29, 2012 at 11:23 AM · Report this
51
How rational people can base their lives on a book that has been mistranslated and edited repeatedly is beyond me. The bible is a fairytale. Dan shouldn't have apologized. Period. I love his intensity, his passion & his potty mouth. Plus he's hot! I've got your back.
Posted by priusgirl on April 29, 2012 at 11:26 AM · Report this
seatackled 52
@51 (and others)

Is invoking MLK a kind of anti-Godwin move? What would the argument be? That MLK and Rosa Parks, etc., were great leaders, but the Civil Rights movement would have been way better if they'd been atheists?
Posted by seatackled on April 29, 2012 at 11:36 AM · Report this
53
As others stated, it is obvious that the walkout was planned before hand. But, you should have anticipated such and adjusted your speech accordingly.

Addressing a congress of high school journalists, you could have discussed how they should go back to Des Moines, Racine, Biloxi and Fresno and seek to publish their own internet news sites...as you have done in Seattle. You could have stressed that they need to do this to counter the increasing conservatism of surviving newspapers. You could have illustrated how your own publication has an author who just won a Pulitzer.

Then, you should have gone on about why you created the It Gets Better Project, outlining the real problems that gay youth face.

Finally, you could have laid out your cards and explained to the impressionable kids the true nature of American Christianity. This would have been a teachable moment and could have incorporated a little swearing for emphasis (if needed).

Those who staged the walkout would have been gone long before your speech's conclusion.
Posted by Approaching 40 in LA on April 29, 2012 at 11:39 AM · Report this
Sandiai 54
Very trolly (trollish?) in here for a Sunday.

Dan, that was a very gracious apology. I thought your speech was rather sweet and low-key, given the offensiveness of the topic.

And, I have to say, you just get better and better looking as time goes on.

This straight woman has a little bit of a crush.
Posted by Sandiai on April 29, 2012 at 11:40 AM · Report this
Just Blue 55
@45, yes. Dan Savage personally intercepted your post and messed up your link because he didn't like what it said. It has nothing to do with the site's formatting. You've uncovered the grand conspiracy! Happily, he was outwitted when you added the spaces. What a clever person you are.
Posted by Just Blue on April 29, 2012 at 11:43 AM · Report this
kristen pawling 56
@15 I agree with you 110%!!!
Posted by kristen pawling http://www.kristenfingpawling.blogspot.com on April 29, 2012 at 11:46 AM · Report this
57
It disgusts me how Americans hold others responsible for their personal offendedness. "You used a naughty word and it hurt my feelings!" It offends me more that American media feeds this beast. If you don't like the words people use to describe your bullshit, and the meaning of those words are nonetheless accurate, then waah-fucking-waah. Grow the fuck up, you childish scrota... I'm saddened that Dan has to offer any apology at all for the words he used to speak the fucking truth, but there it is... He is a fish swimming in American cultural waters. I'm just grateful he's so smart and so willing to continue speaking his mind.
Posted by pixeltech on April 29, 2012 at 11:49 AM · Report this
58
As usual, Kim in Portland put my thoughts much more eloquently than I could.

As I mentioned before, I did youth ministry in the Catholic church before I came to the conclusion that I couldn't be Catholic anymore (long story, won't share here). One of my biggest frustrations as a youth minister was that we expected the teenagers to accept what we told them blindly because it was church doctrine. We buried that little bit in the catechism that says that, in matters of faith and morals, we are obliged to follow our consciences, even when where they lead us differs from offical church teaching. If the Pope (or a Pope, sometime in the 13th century) said it, it must be right, right?

Personally, I can't function with a faith like that. My faith leads me to read what the Scriptures say, process it through my experience of the Divine and the reality of my life, and draw my own conclusions. And I'm grateful I found a denomination that not only allows that but encourages it.

Fight the good fight, Dan. You may be an agnostic (or atheist, for all I know), but you are a better follower of Jesus than a lot of people who bear the name "Christian."
Posted by Sheryl on April 29, 2012 at 11:54 AM · Report this
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn 59
If Christians spent half as much time parsing the words of the Bible as they do the speeches of Dan Savage, they'd recognize the Bible's bullshit for what it is and stop being such fucking hypocrites.
Posted by Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn http://youtu.be/zu-akdyxpUc on April 29, 2012 at 11:57 AM · Report this
Sandiai 61
Slavery-apologist at 43 and 45:
You have certainly made the point that the bible has a LOT to say about slavery.

But, I don't care about the more nuanced and contextual discussions of slavery in the bible. It's STILL slavery. Get it? The point is that the bible has been used to justify modern slavery. In this country! And recently!

Here's your link

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics…
Posted by Sandiai on April 29, 2012 at 12:05 PM · Report this
kim in portland 62
@47,
I'm not inclined to agree that the walkout was a spontaneous response to the word "bullshit", floater. Because the first student passed the camera before the "we can learn to ignore the bullshit" came out of Dan's mouth. It may have not been a orchestrated event, but it is likely that many of them had decided in advance that they would not listen to the use of scripture to justify bullying or criticism of any sort with regard to Christianity or the Bible. It is also likely that many of them walked out purely because their friends did.

Could Dan have chosen kinder synonyms? Yes. I'm not sure it would have made a big difference, though. Perhaps I'm applying too much of my experience to their lives, but critical thinking and questioning about the chosen interpretation or emphasis applied to selected scripture by ones church was viewed as a moral failing and as evidence that one was under attack by Satan. I was told that I was not a true believer and that my eternal soul was at risk because the devil had a hold on me. Consequently, that is how I see these students. Many are weighed down by guilt and taught not to question or think critically. And that there walking out was about protecting the belief system they were raised in from facing the contradictions found within the Bible. And, I'm glad that Dan realizes that he could have made different word choices for his message. His message was good. It needs to be said. He gave them a gift. In order to become the best person they can be, you could say the person that God created them to be, they must think critically. They must be able to defend what they believe inorder for it be real. To use a Biblicalism they must refine their beliefs and skim the dross.

Just my $0.02. And thank you for your thoughts.

Kind regards.
More...
Posted by kim in portland http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/11/fast-paced_video_provides_a_fu.html on April 29, 2012 at 12:13 PM · Report this
63
I wonder what is going through the minds of the walk-outs. Were they deliberately planted there by Fox News and paid to walk out? Most kids, even Christian kids, just don't care that much. When was the last time you saw a kid voluntarily praying in school, for example? It's not that they are not allowed to, they just don't want to.

If I were Dan I would avoid mentioning the Bible at all in this sort of situation. It's not good to feed the Christian persecution complex, and besides it is not just the Bible that is against homosexuality, it is every other major religion as well. There have also been some secular movements that targets homosexuals, such as the eugenics movement.
Posted by TheLastComment on April 29, 2012 at 12:15 PM · Report this
MrBaker 64
I'm a non-believer so these epesodes serve as entertainment or not.

Apology was necessary as a familiar vehicle for Dan Savage to make an important point to the "offended". It helped bring readers and followers along a path where the hypocracy could be demonstrated.

Well played.
Posted by MrBaker http://manywordsforrain.blogspot.com/ on April 29, 2012 at 12:21 PM · Report this
65
I don't think an apology was necessary because everything that Dan said was factual. There should not be any need to apologize for facts.

I'm not going to get into "tone trolling" and say that if he used word X instead of word Y then everything would have been better and some of the people who left would have stayed and been positively influence by his comments. Because I don't believe that would be the case.

Nor an I going to get into whether he should have left out those comments completely. I'm sure Dan knows what kind of bullying happens to gay kids better than I do and how the religious people justify it.

But I will say that the way this is being spun by those same religious people as an "attack" is nothing more than them trying to play the victim here so that THEY can set the tone and the limits of the discussion.

The mean homosexual used bad words to describe their holy book USED TO JUSTIFY ABUSES AGAINST HOMOSEXUALS when he pointed out the factual inconsistencies that it contained and it hurt the innocent children.

And when they left because they didn't want to be hear more mean words about the book USED TO JUSTIFY ABUSES AGAINST HOMOSEXUALS by the mean homosexual he called their actions another mean phrase.

Dan, switch it around a bit. Move it back in time and make the focus about the abuses of slavery. Then put it in the South. And ask yourself if a black man should apologize for calling those laws "bullshit" and offending the white students.
Posted by fairly.unbalanced on April 29, 2012 at 12:23 PM · Report this
sirkowski 66
Religion is bullshit.
Posted by sirkowski http://www.missdynamite.com on April 29, 2012 at 12:33 PM · Report this
67
Seeing as this was a high school presentation, using milder language is necessary. I feel that saying the kids were pansy-assed for leaving diluted Dan's overall message. Calling out parts of the Bible as bullshit? Totally accurate. Maybe if Dan had reordered his message, talking about the good parts of the Bible first, could have kept some of those kids in their seats. But since they are supposed to be journalism students, they need to learn that their job is to listen to the messages and report them, not necessarily become the news themselves.

I'm glad Dan apologized for the words, and for the possible bullying of those kids who walked out. I'm also glad he stood his ground on the overall message. Hopefully, when the kids grow up more, they will see that the world is not black-and-white. Diversity is absolutely essential, and the only thing that makes life worth living. We should celebrate diversity, not spend all our energy trying to destroy it.
Posted by SeattleKim on April 29, 2012 at 12:35 PM · Report this
68
@44 "Baptists don't apologize to Catholics, Christians don't apologize to Muslims, and Buddhist don't apologize to the Hindu, so why should you apologize to assholes?"

Because they are kids and he is an adult. Calling bullshit on the hateful parts of the bible is something that needs to be done more, and criticizing religious beliefs that are hateful, harmful, or demonstrably wrong is not bullying. But the apology for the "pansy-ass" comment was well done.
Posted by Ionian on April 29, 2012 at 12:43 PM · Report this
Puty 69
"Pansy-ass" is a lot kinder than the more accurate "cowardly". Good apology though. Smart, gracious and savvy.

Enjoying these comments, especially Kim's.
Posted by Puty on April 29, 2012 at 12:56 PM · Report this
70
Next time, I hope you call the Quran BS too!!!!!!
Posted by me21 on April 29, 2012 at 1:07 PM · Report this
71
Thanks, Kim @62, but regardless of the plan or impetus behind the walkout, it's still direspectful, to say the least, to berate a person's religious beliefs in front of him, particularly when you have the bully pulpit (if I can use that phrase) and the religious person is the captive audience. Hell, I'll go so far as to say it was abuse of power. I'm sorry, but if I'm a Christian, then Christianity is what I am, what I live (or should, anyway), my culture, etc. If someone tells me that what I live, what I identify with, is "bullshit," what is he saying about me? How should I feel? And should I just sit there in silence while goes on with this with the crowd around me cheering him on? Hell, no. The *least* I can do is walk out. The more assertive path is to stand up and call him out in the middle of the assembly, but these are high school students. This isn't about listening to criticism of your worldview, because this isn't a fair attempt dialogue. This is Dan giving out a piece of his mind, berating and tearing up the Bible - not merely commenting on it - and then adding insult to injury by making fun of the students that walked out. It showed a complete lack of consideration. Words *are* important. His use of the word "bullshit" *is* the big deal here. I understand why Dan feels so passionately about the role of the Bible in society - I'm a liberal and an atheist, which is worse than Dan - but tearing at beliefs and, by extension, believers doesn't gain him, and us, anything. He was right to apologize. As much as some of us fans of his oppose religious conservatism and support progressive politics, we can't alienate the whole group of believers by claiming that their lives are based on bullshit, that they're too stupid to recognize bullshit, because some believers would be willing to listen to us, and because incidents like this broadly paint us liberals as intolerant, the same thing we accuse of them.
More...
Posted by floater on April 29, 2012 at 1:09 PM · Report this
72
It may -- and I mean may -- only have been ungracious to use the word "bullshit" to describe parts of the bible if christians did not use use the hate in the bible to destroy. They pick their word weapons from the bible, and we can describe their weapons as we see fit!

If they wanted their text to be sacred, they would not use them for evil purposes. You can't use the bible for evil, and then claim that all of it is sacred and good. There are evil profanities in the bible that christians will not leave alone, to idly sit on a shelf. They started to word battle, and we have to have to balls to finish it.
Posted by Lan on April 29, 2012 at 1:14 PM · Report this
73
@71
The Bible has been used as a weapon to attack LGBT people. They have every right to defend themselves by bashing it.
Posted by kv on April 29, 2012 at 1:19 PM · Report this
mubhappy 75
I understand your motivation. Everyone wants to be loved. But religion IS bullshit and so was the staged walkout. Never apologize for the truth.
Posted by mubhappy on April 29, 2012 at 1:26 PM · Report this
Eva Hopkins 76
I agree w/ the substance of what you had to say, Dan, but yeah, was a little put off by almost opening w/ "bullshit" (which although true of religion in general, you had to know would be off-putting) & the use of pansy-assed..that *really* bothered me: I imagined it was something you yourself got called as a bullied teen. Saying "cowardly" would have been better. The audience wasn't the same as your readers here @ the Stranger, nor even as old as the kids on "Savage U".

BUT! More importantly, beautifully worded apology. Ya shouldn't have to apologize to those who are trying to oppress, discriminate against & persecute us, but you've had a huge shift in position & influence since you were in high school. The above is a moment of you handling that with grace & aplomb.

Damn eloquent.

P.S. to religious folks, if your beliefs can't stand up to being challenged, if questioning them in any way upsets you, perhaps you should think about that.
Posted by Eva Hopkins http://www.lunamusestudios.com on April 29, 2012 at 1:36 PM · Report this
77
Christians don't read the Bible selectively; Christians know when to apply something that was established for the nation of Israel as God's covenant people and when to not apply those laws and commands. Unfortunately, it fits your biased agenda to twist the words of Scripture to your own ends by calling Christians hypocrites for not applying laws that were not intended for Christians but for Jews.

theanthistemi.blogspot.com
Posted by pxhoplite on April 29, 2012 at 1:36 PM · Report this
78
I'm currently teaching the part of the Bible, in Ephesians, discussed by the columnist in his mention of slavery and the Bible, and I think it would be helpful for people to read from a Bible commentary by JB Coffman on this topic. In short, it says that we would not have been able to know that slavery was wrong if we weren't told it from the Bible, and that other evils in the world spring from ignoring what the Bible teaches us.

"It should be noted that it was not the truth alone which could change the world; it was the truth in Christ the Lord! The duty of masters to their slaves, fathers to their children and husbands to their wives, etc., was not just splendid theory. The living Christ at the right hand of God would require of every man an accounting of his deeds at the judgment of the Great Day. No man would escape it!

Shallow and unperceptive persons of our own times tend to be critical of New Testament teaching because no hard, definitive commands are uttered demanding the abolition of slavery; but it was clear to Christ and the apostles that laws never made people better; only an inward change could accomplish such a purpose as that. Paul's instructions here did not free slaves; but, as Dummelow said, "It freed slavery of its evils," and set in motion forces that would ultimately destroy, not only slavery, but other evil institutions as well.

In this connection, the resurgence of humanism in these times should be noted. Turning away from God, people are obsessed with the notion that, in themselves, they can make everything all right, with their laws, social gains and planned programs of all kinds; but it is no more possible to accomplish worthwhile human societies away from God than it is to produce a crop of apples from uprooted trees. "The New Testament presents the demands of the kingdom of God as prior to those of a utopian society on this earth ... Love of God is still the first and great commandment, love of neighbor second. Worshiping and serving the creature more than the Creator, however, drowned the pre-Christian world in debaucheries; and, if indulged, it will do it again!""
More...
Posted by 12do on April 29, 2012 at 1:39 PM · Report this
82
@80
Oh please like any of you trolls give a shit when your ilk promote lies about the LGBT community, encourage "corrective rape", and promote murdering us. What Savage said is absolutely nothing compared to what has been done to us in the name of religion.
Posted by kv on April 29, 2012 at 1:49 PM · Report this
Brooklyn Reader 84
Having watched that portion of the keynote address, via Schmader's post, I'm baffled that you feel the need to apologize for it. I don't see anything you shouldn't feel comfortable standing behind.

@75 I disagree with the blanket statement that "religion is bullshit." It's the people. Dishonest, lazy, selfish, scheming, egocentric, credulous, malevolent or ignorant people are capable of making bullshit out of anything. That said, a lot of people have made a lot of bullshit out of Christianity. But, that doesn't mean that its core message of Peace, Equality, Community, Charity, Simplicity and Integrity is the problem.
Posted by Brooklyn Reader on April 29, 2012 at 2:03 PM · Report this
biffp 85
@78, I don't recall religious leaders leading the abolition of slavery. I do recall the Vatican siding with the Nazis and celebrating Hitler birthday. If we're going to revisit history, then like Dan says let's write out all of the hate and intolerance in the bible. It's not a religion if it tolerates hate. I agree that gay rights are the human rights issue, although the Republicans are trying to roll back women's rights as a wedge - just no shame.
Posted by biffp on April 29, 2012 at 2:08 PM · Report this
86
Well, really people were just upset because this speaker verbally abused children when he was in a position of power. He was the worst type of bully. And this person has done this before. Really- who licks objects in an office to spread his body fluids and try to infect others with illness? Who does that? Well, this guy does. He's no better than the McDonalds worker who spit in the cup of the customers he was serving recently. There is nothing respectable or decent about this man and he should under no circumstances be visiting our White House, influencing decisions made about our country, or having unsupervised contact with children.
Posted by lovethaturabully on April 29, 2012 at 2:08 PM · Report this
BLUE 87
I prefer a Dan Savage who can call anyone's religion bullshit and not have to bullshit about it. He's not acting strong as ovaries but weak as a scrotum.
Posted by BLUE on April 29, 2012 at 2:14 PM · Report this
MrBaker 88
@85, Quakers, and evangelical do-gooders in the north east, certainly were leading in the abolitionist movement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abolitionis…
Posted by MrBaker http://manywordsforrain.blogspot.com/ on April 29, 2012 at 2:24 PM · Report this
OuterCow 89
@85: "It's not a religion if it tolerates hate." ? Sorry, but it most certainly can be. It would be nice if your sentiment was true, but we have ample evidence of religions that not only tolerated, but advocated hate.
Posted by OuterCow on April 29, 2012 at 2:32 PM · Report this
scary tyler moore 90
jesus h. tapdancing christ, did any of you idiots even READ the entire post?

Dan did NOT say the students were pansy-assed. he did not say the bible was bullshit. he said their ACTIONS were pansy-assed. he said certain biblical VERSES were bullshit. you numbnuts fail to see that people are NOT their behavior, nor are verses the bible. there is a distinct difference, one that you have failed to grasp.

This is not an apology. this is expanding on and explaining what he said. if you don't grok this, you truly are ignint 'n shit.
Posted by scary tyler moore http://pushymcshove.blogspot.com/ on April 29, 2012 at 2:34 PM · Report this
91
@78: It's a pretty big stretch to claim that we would not know that slavery is wrong, if not by the grace of god (or some such crap). You then go on to claim that we can thank god and religion for enlightened, humanistic thought.

Wow. I'm sure that's what they taught you at Bob Jones University...

In your practice of apologetics, you're making some pretty bold claims. And, you're also definitely not allowing any shred of doubt to interfere with or intrude upon your religious certitude. Now, that's what I call TRUE FAITH!
Posted by Approaching 40 in LA on April 29, 2012 at 2:42 PM · Report this
Griffin 92
@86, most of the students I taught in college tried that trick of spreading illness in the hope that by giving me their flu/cold/whooping cough that class would be cancelled. It's far from uncommon for students of all religious and political persuasions.

As far as it goes, my sister, the ordained pastor, agrees with you, Dan, that there is a lot of bullshit in the Bible. Paul himself refers to his own life as shit in Acts 20, although you need to read the original Greek for the unsanitized version.

And for those who say that the Bible can't be manipulated because it's the word of God, here's a present from an old pastor friend of mine. Read these verses in this order.

Matthew 27:5
Luke 10:37
Posted by Griffin on April 29, 2012 at 2:43 PM · Report this
kim in portland 93
@71,

I disagree that the message was disrespectful, Floater. The word choice, yes, but not the message itself. I understand how they felt. I've been both the Christian being called a moronic idiot for having been raised one and the abomination Christian for supporting LGBT rights. I understand feeling trapped. Being an adult surivor of physical and mental abuse. I have a very defined definition of what it means to be abused and scars to show for it. I don't agree they were abused. They were presented with facts about the Bible's use to justify bullying behavior at a secular event. They did not like the truth and they walked out. They deserved an apology for being called "pansy-assed", it was an unnecessary and unkind dig. The use of the word "bullshit" was not the best choice for this event. And, Dan apologized. The message itself was good.

I don't know the reason behind Dan's being invited to speak, but I'd gather it is tied to the IGBP. If the invitation stems from the creation of the IGBP then there is context for his message that is relevant and important. Let us not forget that there may have been some LGBT Christians (and non-Christians) who needed that exact message, needed to know that the Bible can be wrong. Needed to be reminded that the Bible is comprised of words on a page and actual human minds must translate those symbols and give them meaning. I know a 16 year old with a lovely singing voice, she made All-State, and she had been dismissed from her church choir because someone else told the minister of music that she suspects that she is bisexual. Never-mind that she has never dated. They have already convicted and publically dismissed her. Her parents make her attend every Sunday. I wonder what she would think of Dan's message? I gather she understands what it means to be trapped, better than any of those students who walked out. And, I wonder if having been through this experience if these students have gained any compassion for those who actually are bullied or for those who find themselves trapped by their desire to evangelize them?

By the way, you may find knowing that groups of Christians agree with Dan. Maybe some of those cheering students were Christians who are sick and tired of seeing the Bible used as a tool to justify abuse. Had our two teenagers been at that confrence they would have been nodding in agreement with Dan, and would not felt that Dan was abusing their persons. Neither would have cared for the "pansy-assed" comment, because it was mean spirited.

I hope you enjoy the rest of your weekend.
More...
Posted by kim in portland http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/11/fast-paced_video_provides_a_fu.html on April 29, 2012 at 2:56 PM · Report this
Eva Hopkins 94
@84 / Brooklyn Reader (OMG I miss NY) - you are right. I should have said, "some of" or "parts of" religion = bullshit. I have met some good religious folks, for whom their faith is a motivator to do good works & etc. Since most of the message of Christianity in the news is anti-gay-weddings or anti-abortion, it's easy to forget that.
Posted by Eva Hopkins http://www.lunamusestudios.com on April 29, 2012 at 2:57 PM · Report this
Eva Hopkins 95
Kim @ 93 said everything I meant to, but better. As usual.
Posted by Eva Hopkins http://www.lunamusestudios.com on April 29, 2012 at 2:58 PM · Report this
97
I walk out on hate speech no matter who is giving it. I've walked out on Christian leaders for telling racist jokes or seemingly innocent remarks that clearly show the dark heart of the speaker. Not because I'm a pansy-ass but because I am showing my disdain for such insensitivity. Walking out is a form of protest, I will not sit in quiet complicity when someone says something that is insensitive or racist, nor will I sit quietly by when someone says something that is patently intended to hurt or anger another person. I walk out because it gets my point across without being disrespectful to the process. I will not yell at you or anyone else, that just makes me look like Wildling.
Posted by Charmed on April 29, 2012 at 3:24 PM · Report this
Posted by kim in portland http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/11/fast-paced_video_provides_a_fu.html on April 29, 2012 at 3:39 PM · Report this
99
#92 Are you actually arguing that it is normal behavior for an adult to try to spread disease to others by licking objects in an office? Are you actually saying that "most" of the students in the classes you taught did this as well? I say you are a liar, as in all of my college years, and all of my years of adult life the only people I knew/heard of spreading bodily fluids deliberately to cause harm were those who I read about in the paper who were jailed for their criminal behavior. If you are in fact saying that there is a college somewhere where students behave like this I'm sure you won't mind mentioning the college name since it is so common and everyone is doing it.
Posted by lovethaturabully on April 29, 2012 at 3:40 PM · Report this
Some Old Nobodaddy Logged In 100
@90 Shh! You're getting in the way of their self-pity routine.
Posted by Some Old Nobodaddy Logged In on April 29, 2012 at 3:42 PM · Report this
Matt from Denver 101
86/99, why do you feel the need to lie? We've seen the tape, and no one was "verbally abused."

This is why your side is losing.
Posted by Matt from Denver on April 29, 2012 at 3:43 PM · Report this
102
Yeah, right, like "going to hell" and "abomination" and "immoral" and "sin" are ever-so-polite ways to describe homosexuals' private adult consensual activities. "Bullshit" and "pansy-assed?" Jeeves, fetch the clutching pearls and fainting couch.
Posted by avast2006 on April 29, 2012 at 4:03 PM · Report this
103
Part of me hopes that someday when we're all ancient Dan will be like, "oh I remember that little tempest. My MTV show had just hit the air, you remember, that one I got my first Peabody for. So I got hired for a big speech. We heard a few nutball students had threatened a walkout if I said boo about their BIble. So magically it turned out there was a spectator cam down low a few rows back aimed at the jumbotron in case a few people did storm out when I let 'em have it. I put extra bait on my hook for them too. Trolled them but good - their parents' nutblogs too. Next day I even published an apolog-ish, very sincere. All for a good cause, of course. And like the man said, no such thing as bad publicity. Terry, sweetie, I said my lap robe, not my heating pad."
Posted by gloomy gus on April 29, 2012 at 4:07 PM · Report this
104
Dan, thank you for saying what you did - the Bible is bullshit, and Christians have to stop acting like they have a religious right to be hateful and bigoted to everyone else.
It took me 37 years to come out as bi-sexual, mostly because of a scary pentecostal upbringing. When my cousin told everyone he was gay, the family shunned him, and I was told that this was the right thing to do, because we were Christians. My cousin was the only decent human in the family, and they rejected him. It never stopped bothering me, the way they treated him as if he weren't human, this beautiful person.
Posted by Olinka on April 29, 2012 at 4:17 PM · Report this
105
I think now would be a great time to re-watch "Milk" to get some perspective on how much progress has been made.
Posted by fairly.unbalanced on April 29, 2012 at 4:22 PM · Report this
106
These people want us dead, Dan. I think its important to say that out loud from time to time. Your choice of language to stake out your well known position is irrelevant, I think. The kids who walked out, and the media coverage that followed, was already orchestrated and ready to deploy. They were just waiting for you to be, well, you. If they did'nt know what they were getting, why did they invite you?

Bullshit should be called out, loud and proud. And this isn't coming from just any schmo....I am an ordained minister in a mainstream denomination. Fuck them if they can't take a joke.
Posted by Sportpilot on April 29, 2012 at 4:23 PM · Report this
Griffin 107
@99, University of Iowa, 2003-07, in the music, math, and chemistry departments, students would come to my office and those of my peers to tell us in person that they were too sick to come to class "cough cough" even though they knew that an email was sufficient, especially given an outbreak of whooping cough and later norovirus. Part stupid, and part malicious--should I have prosecuted all of them for exposing me to their germs? Hard to prove malice when a student could reasonably claim stupidity.

Also, innumerable singers going to their voice studio teacher to tell the teacher they were too sick to sing (and these students weren't all music majors, before you start dumping on the arts).

And you know what? I've met profs from schools all over the country and world at a variety of conferences. They've all had similar experiences. Does that mean that there are a lot of dumb and/or malicious kids in college? You be the judge--these are the same students who utilize fraternity and sorority test banks in lieu of studying for themselves, complain that classes simultaneously are too slow and too difficult to understand, try every possible method to scam attendance takers in courses with mandatory attendance, and break the law as much as possible by drinking before the legal age. You're the credulous hack if you believe trying to get instructors ill is beneath them.
Posted by Griffin on April 29, 2012 at 4:33 PM · Report this
108
@37: That whole "man shalt not lie with another man" stuff: Leviticus, right? Old Testament or New Testament?

What exactly did Christ have to say about homosexuality? Be specific. If you are going to throw away all the other Old Testament stuff as obsolete, why are you hanging onto that one passage?
Posted by avast2006 on April 29, 2012 at 4:34 PM · Report this
109
I've seen incredibly horrible things that atheists say in their forums. They wouldn't dream of apologizing. Thank you for that, Dan. I didn't see the whole speech, is there a link?

I could tell you were upset in that moment, just as the kids were. You seem like a thoughtful and caring person who is deeply committed to your beliefs. I care about this too - so much that it hurts.

Please Dan, consider one thing in all of this mess of rage, misunderstanding and human limitations, please consider that you might need more information and understanding about the bible and about God. You are way off target there. Don't only seek answers from those who will affirm and agree with you about God. Be sure you are also talking to those who study his word daily, marinate in it and have a deep commitment and relationship with God.
Posted by skyflier on April 29, 2012 at 4:50 PM · Report this
puppydogtails 110
Dan, embrace your Rosa Parks moment. Do NOT back down against the Christianists. Their view of the world is a tissue of lies. Keep ripping into them.
Posted by puppydogtails on April 29, 2012 at 4:52 PM · Report this
111
This group invited Dan Savage to speak. If they wanted a funny, pollyanna gay figure, they could've invited Ellen DeGeneres. If they wanted someone more low key, they could've invited recent Pulitzer prize winner, Dominic Holden.

They chose Dan Savage. He's a known quantity. They had to realize what they were getting and how he would, in all likelihood, speak. No one should have been surprised, and I doubt that they were, what with the staged walk-out. They were prepared to be offended before he stepped up to the podium. That may have been the whole point.

And as a former high school teacher, I assure you that every student there has heard -- and probably used -- the word "bullshit". The ones who walked out probably use "pansy-assed" in their daily discussions.

Posted by FranFW on April 29, 2012 at 4:54 PM · Report this
scary tyler moore 112
you really are one dumb fuck, @86, if you believe dan actually did lick doorknobs during gary bauer's 2000 iowa campaign. saying he did does not translate to actually doing it. dan lies a LOT (especially about his age), and if you were stupid enough to buy this, ha ha HA!
Posted by scary tyler moore http://pushymcshove.blogspot.com/ on April 29, 2012 at 5:00 PM · Report this
113
If there were anti-gay atheist groups I'd have more sympathy for the offended Christians.
Posted by wetdog2 on April 29, 2012 at 5:12 PM · Report this
114
It's a good, reasonable, and rational apology.
Well done.
Posted by Park on April 29, 2012 at 5:16 PM · Report this
Griffin 115
@111, it was Eli, wasn't it?
Posted by Griffin on April 29, 2012 at 5:16 PM · Report this
121
@109 If you had looked up Dan on Wikipedia, you would know he was raised Catholic and his mother, who strongly influenced him, was a believer.

Christians, I agree with you guys. A lot of homosexuals are very angry, bitter people. I want you to consider the possibility that their anger stems from the extremely poor treatment they have received from society. A bad relationship with God is not the ONLY possible reason people can be angry, right?
Posted by TheLastComment on April 29, 2012 at 6:26 PM · Report this
122
@113 Yeah, nobody cares if atheists are the victims of bigotry.
Posted by TheLastComment on April 29, 2012 at 6:29 PM · Report this
scary tyler moore 123
@116, you're still a shit-for-brains. his conviction was for voter registration fraud. you still believe that doorknob licking story? what a dumbfuck.
Posted by scary tyler moore http://pushymcshove.blogspot.com/ on April 29, 2012 at 7:03 PM · Report this
mtnlion 124
You just can't go around using the words "Bible" and "bullshit" anywhere near the same breath without being demonized, misconstrued, and hated. Dan's followers will understand him because we are predominantly of a similar progressive mindset, but even his cogent, exhaustive explanation of his intentions won't gain points with those of a different mindset. He's the devil in the flesh; he says our beliefs are bullshit; he says Christians are pansyasses: he is not to be listened to on any matter ever. The halo effect is that we are more forgiving of people we already like and support and less so of those we do not.

I love and agree with Dan, but he should be very careful with his words. He's pretty mainstream now. In order for one's message to truly get across, it must be presented gently and respectfully, so people will stick around and actually listen, as literally illustrated by this incident.
Posted by mtnlion http://radicalish.wordpress.com on April 29, 2012 at 7:49 PM · Report this
125
Don't be so pansy-assed. Christianity (as a religion rather than political ideology) is bullshit. The sermon on the mount was a political manifesto and Jesus one of the most revolutionary men ever to have lived. Deserving of reverence and resect? Absolutely. Divine? Bullshit.
Posted by Bandit on April 29, 2012 at 7:52 PM · Report this
wright1275 126
I think most of those that walked out would have done so even if you hadn't said the word bullshit, which is sad because they're the ones who needed to hear your message. I went to a Bible college and was raised in a very Lutheran home. I sent the video made my Matthew Vines to my father hoping that maybe his views about homosexuality would be changed, but he returned a list of videos and articles for me to read that apparently refute Matthew's research (admittedly, I haven't yet had the courage to stomach his links). My family and many of my friends from college, view the Bible as the direct word of God. I view the Bible as that VHS tape I have of Ellen Degeneres' brilliant Phone Call to God routine that I recorded in the late 80s. As the tape wore thin, I made a new copy, then another when that one wore thing, then another and so on. With each copy, the quality got worse and worse. That's how I view the Bible. What we have today is a copy of a copy of a copy of what, in many cases, was oral tradition to begin with. To use verses from it today, to condemn homosexuals, while ignoring those other verses that you find uncomfortable is hypocrisy, plain and simple. Dan, you have long been and will continue to be, someone that I admire.
Posted by wright1275 on April 29, 2012 at 7:54 PM · Report this
MrBaker 127
Once we reach 100 comments don't we all get a free bean burrito from taco time?
Posted by MrBaker http://manywordsforrain.blogspot.com/ on April 29, 2012 at 8:07 PM · Report this
128
Your apology was important and appropriate, but I think you still have a ways to go before you become religiously literate. Liberal xians don't read the bible selectively--they read it critically and contextually.
Posted by Kevin Erickson on April 29, 2012 at 8:14 PM · Report this
130
Apologize for what now? It seems people often are asked to apologize to bigots for hurting their feelings. Whatever floats your boat, but this is an area where I've long since stopped apologizing, and I believe all sane people should do likewise. You didn't offend any Christians for being Christians. You offended bigots for being bigots. Whenever this happens, the bigots say they are Christians, were offended as Christians, and all Christians are similarly offended. Bunch of fucking bullshit it is.
Posted by Meat Weapon on April 29, 2012 at 8:17 PM · Report this
HellboundAlleee 132
Bullshit is bullshit. The bible is bullshit and so is Christianity. You have no obligation to respect it. Go you.
Posted by HellboundAlleee http://hellboundalleee.blogspot.com on April 29, 2012 at 8:35 PM · Report this
133
IT'S A TRAP! Dan, you are apologizing for name calling? Why?! Why now? You call people names ALL THE TIME in your column and that's part of the reason you're my hero. There are other people out there to make the argument politely. Your roll has always been to tell the blunt truth forcefully and irreverently. It might limit your audiences and your venues if you refuse to tone down your language, but that's the price you've always seemed willing to pay, for the ability to make a difference and to have a loyal, committed fan base. As a long time reader I know you think a lot of what is in the Bible IS bullshit, and that you think those students ARE pansy asses. If you apologize for saying so now you'll end up apologizing for every column and every interview. Don't get lost on that road. Don't become Dr. Drew.
Posted by Aqua Man on April 29, 2012 at 8:46 PM · Report this
134
@127 at a hundred comments we win the taco bell all right. Unless it's just the usual, forty comments smothered to death by sixty having to do with Seattleblues. The only reward for that is the satisfaction that comes from helping a troll hijack another thread.
Posted by gloomy gus on April 29, 2012 at 8:49 PM · Report this
135
#107 Yes, I agree that Dan was both dumb and malicious. Does that mean that there are a lot of dumb and/or malicious kids in college? " #111- I think you might be mistaken that the organizers of this conference understood what Dan might do. He's a Barack Obama endorsed fighter against bullying. You might be surprised that many might be unaware of Dan's more radical past and activities. If a president is hanging out with someone, a certain expectation of correct behavior is there. Also, at the school my children attend I can assure you that such slurs are as commonly heard in the school you taught at do not occur. Not sure if that is a failure of parenting or the teachers/school administrators or both. #112- well, I really don't know what to say. Dan Savage described in great detail his attempt to use his bodily fluids to infect others. If he is, as you say, a horrible liar, why is Barack Obama allowing him access to the kids of this country? Does Barack Obama support bullying and lying?
Posted by lovethaturabully on April 29, 2012 at 8:50 PM · Report this
136
Just reading the responses by the homosexual crowd here is very disturbing. The instant hate-reaction can be interpreted as insecurity and immaturity. Dan Savage is a bigot and hypocrite. There he was supposed to be delivering a speech about bullying and he is the biggest bully in the room. What a disgrace. Hey Dan, this is America! You don't have to believe in God so stop complaining about those that do. If you think the Bible has issues with homosexuality, go read the Koran!

The very fact that you have such a visceral reaction to the Word of God proves that it is a "living and active" word that never is void or without effect. Even if you choose to disbelieve it, it is having an effect on you...that is obvious. Choose wisely and may you find peace. Your current path of anger, finger-pointing and bullying is a path to dispair.
Posted by TruthBeTold777 on April 29, 2012 at 8:57 PM · Report this
137
Also, I would like to point out to Dan that Ellen Degeneres has done more to help gay people out than he ever will. That's because she is nice. People like her, and they don't want others to hurt her feelings, and they certainly don't want her to be discriminated against. That is the way you change hearts and minds. Not by verbally abusing teenagers, smearing your bodily fluids, being obnoxious, and being a bully.
Posted by lovethaturabully on April 29, 2012 at 8:58 PM · Report this
138
@137 Ellen Degeneres is for old people. Dan Savage connects to youth much more strongly than she ever will. Notice how most of the kids in the audience are laughing at everything Dan says.
Posted by TheLastComment on April 29, 2012 at 9:24 PM · Report this
tomsj 139
You're right, Dan. "Panysy-assed" as a description of the walk-out was inappropriate. The appropriate term was "chicken-shit". Please be more careful in your descriptive choices next time.
Posted by tomsj on April 29, 2012 at 9:31 PM · Report this
Catalina Vel-DuRay 140
Isn't it great how someone like truthbetold666 can come in here, make two comments on one post and determine that there is a "homosexual crowd" here on Slog? Who says religious people aren't smart?
Posted by Catalina Vel-DuRay http://www.danlangdon.com on April 29, 2012 at 9:34 PM · Report this
141
#135 If they invited Dan and didn't research him, they deserve what they get. Sorry, but that's just sloppy work on someone's part. He's a nationally known figure, and religious organizations have been howling about him for years. All it takes is .000000014 (est) seconds on Google.

And I'm assuming, perhaps erroneously, that when you say "Also, at the school my children attend I can assure you that such slurs are as commonly heard in the school you taught at do not occur." you're speaking as a parent, not someone who works there? Because as a teacher for a decade, I can positively assure you that how children behave at home and how they behave at school are two completely different things. The number of parents who were horrified and in denial about their children's actions when I called to report said actions was uniform: My child would never behave that way. And yet, they do. Frequently.
Posted by FranFW on April 29, 2012 at 9:37 PM · Report this
142
Dan, I cannot imagine being on the front lines of the modern Civil Rights movement and staying as cool headed as you. I can't stand that people have to apologize for EVERYTHING that may have slightly offended someone these days. If some people don't like what you say, they don't have to listen.

Keep up the amazing work!
Posted by MorganH on April 29, 2012 at 9:58 PM · Report this
143
Dan, I cannot imagine being on the front lines of the modern Civil Rights movement and staying as cool headed as you. I can't stand that people have to apologize for EVERYTHING that may have slightly offended someone these days. If some people don't like what you say, they don't have to listen.

Keep up the amazing work!
Posted by MorganH on April 29, 2012 at 10:02 PM · Report this
mtnlion 144
@136: Well, you're kind of missing the point.

"You don't have to believe in God so stop complaining about those that do." The issue is that many of those who do believe in God see it fit to force the life they deem acceptable (hetero, man as the head of the household) as prescribed by said God onto the entire population, regardless of what *they* believe. That is the major complaint. It's not that they believe in a different God than I, but that they think that their own God's rules should apply to everyone, and that they fail to see how wrong and oppressive that is.

Also: "If you think the Bible has issues with homosexuality, go read the Koran!" Making the argument "that religion is meaner than my religion" is not a valid argument for saying yours is okay. If I kill someone I don't get off the hook for bringing up Hitler. I agree with you that Islam is currently the worse of the two, but that does not excuse Christians who think that gay people ought to be shamed, condemned, and denied the right to freely exercise their love for each other.

Dan's word choice was unfavorable, but speaking out against hypocritical Christians, people who make up the majority of people in this country and hold back the rights of other US citizens does not qualify as bullying.

Oh and witness me as a person who is devoid of an emotion when people bring up the words of their awesome God. I am not surprised by nor moved by people using Jesus as a defense for their discrimination. I also believe that God is greater than Jesus or any other religion on the face of the Earth and doesn't give a lick about who fucks who. I have more peace in my heart than a thousand hateful scriptures could ever produce.
Posted by mtnlion http://radicalish.wordpress.com on April 29, 2012 at 10:03 PM · Report this
scary tyler moore 145
your kitten is adorable, mtnlion.
Posted by scary tyler moore http://pushymcshove.blogspot.com/ on April 29, 2012 at 10:11 PM · Report this
mtnlion 147
@145, thanks! Jackson is no longer a kitten, but I love that photo still.
Posted by mtnlion http://radicalish.wordpress.com on April 29, 2012 at 10:22 PM · Report this
148
Has Dan ever referred to Islamic ideas as "bullshit" in public? Of course he hasn't. Because he is a hypocrite. The anti-gay stuff in Christianity that he attacks, is much worse in Islam. But since attacking Islam is politically incorrect (to the left), Dan would never do it, because he'd be too worried that his left wing peers would label him "Islamophobic." I'm sorry but this whole thing stinks to high heaven. And this is from someone who is 100% behind equal rights for everyone.
Posted by sharke on April 29, 2012 at 10:28 PM · Report this
kim in portland 149
@136

"He was speaking on April 12 to attendees of the National High School Journalism Conference, sponsored by the Journalism Education Association and the National Scholastic Press Association. The four-day conference, featuring over 200 sessions, two keynote speakers (Dan and Jennifer Sizemore), more than a dozen featured speakers, and more events and activities than you can shake a pen at, was titled Journalism on the Edge.

The conference’s promo material begins with:

You are already on the Edge. Journalists have always lived on the edge. Deadlines, and the edge of time. Facts, and the edge of truth. Authority, and the edge of free expression. We balance on the edge of legitimate public interest and the interests of those who would rather we not publish."

I don't think this was an antibullying event.
Posted by kim in portland http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/11/fast-paced_video_provides_a_fu.html on April 29, 2012 at 10:37 PM · Report this
the idiot formerly known as kk 150
SROTU @6: Although I don't always agree with you, you generally seem to make sense. This time, sorry, you are completely out of your league. Christianity does not begin and end with the New Testament, and if you think so, it doesn't seem you have ever studied the Christian religion. Jesus said, "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." (Mt. 5:17) There's a reason that every Christian Bible includes the Old Testament. And a reason that Jesus frequently quotes from it. (And the reason is not because it has been superseded or is to be ignored.)
Posted by the idiot formerly known as kk on April 29, 2012 at 10:42 PM · Report this
kim in portland 151
@ 148,

Google is your friend. Yes, Dan has criticized Islam. But at present the US does not have elected politicians trying to merge church with state. We do have proclaimed "Christian" politicians attempting to do so through the GOP.
Posted by kim in portland http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/11/fast-paced_video_provides_a_fu.html on April 29, 2012 at 10:42 PM · Report this
mtnlion 152
@148: You sure are drawing a lot of conclusions. If Islam was the predominant religion in our country, I'm actually quite confident he'd say it was bullshit too. Nobody can solve the world's problems, but we can start in the West, where Christian hypocrisy is what holds people down.

Also, do the left accuse people of being Islamophobes who say their beliefs are wrong? Islamophobia is about terrorism and the notion that they want to kill every non-Muslim. I think anyone who disagrees with Christian beliefs is also equally critical of the Muslim ones (unless they are themselves Muslim, of course.) This whole thing about how "he'd never say that," I think is plainly false and that if he did his supporters would say he's an "Islamophobe" is also totally off the mark.

Also, read my response to 136 about the "Islam is worse than Christianity" business. Cutting of a finger may be "better" than taking the whole hand but... oh never mind, the argument is tooooo obviousssss...
Posted by mtnlion http://radicalish.wordpress.com on April 29, 2012 at 10:52 PM · Report this
153
@148
"Has Dan ever referred to Islamic ideas as 'bullshit' in public? Of course he hasn't. Because he is a hypocrite."

Buy a dictionary. Or use one of the several on-line versions.

1. a person who puts on a false appearance of virtue or religion
2. a person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feelings

Because you do not like what he says IN PUBLIC does not make him a "hypocrite".
You also have to show that what he does IN PRIVATE contradicts his public statements.
Posted by fairly.unbalanced on April 29, 2012 at 10:54 PM · Report this
154
Why the hell should you apologize when you didn't say anything untrue. In the churches of most of these youth, they have been confirmed by now, and are thus considered adults by their aforementioned churches. So any argument about saying mean things to kids is just further hypocrisy on the part of the religious folk.

Also, are you apologizing for the exact words you used when calling out the cowardice of these young adults, or are are you genuinely remorseful for pretty much calling them cowards. They are cowards. It's that simple. They are so used to a society where Christians have been able to talk so much shit about all these other people, despite their alleged savior's numerous commands to not do that. But as soon as someone calls out the bullshit (there really is no better term for it) that is in their sacred text, things are just too hard for them.

Dan, you are one of the best fighters we have. I understand the need to be diplomatic, understanding, and compassionate, and I agree that it is very important. But please, PLEASE, be careful not to fall into the trap of coddling Christians.

The students were cowards, and their actions were a slap in the face to us heathens, and a display of shame for their own community.
Posted by lqtm http://thenerdarium.wordpress.com/ on April 29, 2012 at 11:01 PM · Report this
mtnlion 155
Actually @153 makes a good point. Hypocrite is not even the right word. Just because he's less vocal against Islam doesn't mean he's a hypocrite, just that he picks his battles and Christianity is the most relevant to his life and to his country.

If I say "cigarettes are bad for your health" but neglect to mention suntanning*, that is not hypocritical; at BEST it is inconsistent, but not even if I'm in an area who smokes waaaay more than it tans. Nor does it mean I think suntanning is healthy.

*Suntanning is one word?!

Do I abuse analogies?
Posted by mtnlion http://radicalish.wordpress.com on April 29, 2012 at 11:01 PM · Report this
frizbeesf 156
Dan,

You were right the first time. The are weak skinned hatefilled pansy assed hypocrites who hurl the most hateful bile at LGBT people, take pride and joy when they bully gay kids to death. Think HIV is God "cleaning house" and THEN shriek hysterically that they are the oppressed victims when the people they attack have the nerve to fight back.

Focus on the Funding...err.. I mean the "Family" is the American |Taliban, they hate democracy, they hate freedom they are as committed to theologically based oppression as any of the proponents of Sharia law they scream hysterically about on FOX news.

Don't apologize, don't back down. These monsters are killing kids.

Oh and by the way Dan... God is on YOUR side.

Posted by frizbeesf http://funnyoddthing.blogspot.com on April 29, 2012 at 11:11 PM · Report this
the idiot formerly known as kk 157
@148: When Congress and State Legislatures start citing Sharia law as a basis for discriminating against gays, I expect that Dan will call it bullshit. Until then, your ignorance is showing, and your comment is stupid. One thing right-wingers need to learn from left-wingers: we care about who has power, not about your stupid debate-club hypotheticals. (That's why we worry about real racism, not fake racism.)
Posted by the idiot formerly known as kk on April 29, 2012 at 11:57 PM · Report this
the idiot formerly known as kk 158
@Dan Savage: given the inane comment made by @148, maybe the public is finally beginning to forget that you backed the second Iraq war!
Posted by the idiot formerly known as kk on April 29, 2012 at 11:59 PM · Report this
edwin decker 159
The problem with calling the walkouts "pansies" was not that it was offensive, since Dan meant "pansy" simply as a dysphemism for "weak" or "cowardly." The only problem with his using the word is that it's not correct in this case. Much as I despise bible-referencing, morally superior twatboogers like this, their walkout was staged, and therefore a proactive gesture in support of their beliefs. In other words, "activism."

Much as I detest the thing they are an activising for, the mere fact that they staged it - in enemy territory if you will - was not the act of a coward.

Other than that, Right on Dan! Your point about cafeteria-Christianity was eloquently made.
Posted by edwin decker http://www.edwindecker.com/ on April 30, 2012 at 1:25 AM · Report this
Just Blue 160
@74, let me get this straight: because laws don't make people better, the New Testament didn't call for the abolition of slavery. Or condemn it in any way, shape, or form. Though of course Jesus managed to condemn divorce and adultery. And Paul instructing slaves to obey their masters - rather than instructing believers not to own slaves - totally undid slavery. It just took a long, long, long time. Gotcha.

And if it weren't for this epic (if exceptionally slow-acting) intervention, no one in the world would've ever figured out owning people is bad. Except maybe the Essenes, before Jesus was even born. And possibly Alcidamas, a Greek sophist in the 5th century. Though there's some debate regarding how deeply their anti-slavery stances ran, their statements were still more clearly opposed than any verse in the Bible.

It's just plain cruel to torture logic like that.

Regardless, that's not the fundamental point behind what Savage is saying: whether people just skip over contentious verses or view them through layers of nuanced context, he's arguing that they should do the same with the passages regarding gays. It makes no sense to make extensive arguments explaining away seemingly pro-slavery, anti-divorce, anti-women verses, then point to the relatively few verses regarding gays and say, "Well, I can't help it: it says right here in plain English they're abominations!"
Posted by Just Blue on April 30, 2012 at 2:28 AM · Report this
161
I applaud your strength of character in apologizing. I note that you did not say "if I offended anyone, I apologize", etc. It was not a conditional apology, which is all too often the kind of apology that those on the right offer, if they offer any apology for their offense.

But more so, I applaud you courage and honesty for speaking the truth. And you are correct. Your words are not an attack on Christianity. You words point out "the emperor's new clothes", i.e, the hypocrisy of those who wish to be perceived as "Christians", but who who do not wish to actually practice it. Thank you.
Posted by RichInPA on April 30, 2012 at 4:27 AM · Report this
Nancy S 163
Dan, Brave of you to publicly take on the hypocrisy of religion and the bible. The religious right has convinced Americans they are beyond reproach because 'the speak for God' .... to take issue with anything they say means you are being blasphemous. It's just not socially acceptable to believe the bible is not the absolute word of God (which I've been saying for years!)

The scary thing is, they have deluded everyone into believing they speak for God and so they've effectively silenced their critics. How dare anyone speak against them/god?! They are the American Taliban. It scares the shit out of me that this country is moving closer to a union of church and state, instead of the separation we need to ensure equality for all.

Thanks for taking this on. I support you ... but I worry about the hatred they throw at you. I have no public venue but I forward your tweets and speak out in my small way.

For any Christian haters scanning the comments ... would it help to remind you that Jesus promoted love and equality? and FYI, you don't speak for God - that is a blasphemous assumption.
Posted by Nancy S on April 30, 2012 at 6:12 AM · Report this
GlamB0t 165
Those kids that walked out need to realize that THEY are all bullies. Planning to walk out of a speech is a stunt only done to take away the attention (or "power") from the speaker and give it to them. It's the damn definition of the word.

It isn't surprising though. All faiths have come to power through various ways of bullying, abuse, slavery, and genocide. They've had plenty of prep time.

Job well done, Dan. Kudos to you for providing an apology to some folks who don't deserve it. It's been a week for you. First you're attacked as a father by the worlds largest dipshit, then FAUX News comes up with this bogus "outrage". You're like a martyr. Similar to, oh, I don't know someone who was crucified for their beliefs. Just like...shit what was that guys name.....It will come to me ..........wait..for it....
Posted by GlamB0t on April 30, 2012 at 7:12 AM · Report this
166
"All Christians read the Bible selectively" What is your evidence to support this? As a Christian who was bullied and beaten regularly for my faith, I find it preposterous that you claim to be an anitbullying activist, but use such vile words when talking about many Christians and Christianity. Regarding Levitical laws, you need to understand that this was when Israel was under a Theocracy, and only applied to them. Jesus was the fulfillment of prophecy and Christians are not under Levitical law. And, since Jews aren't under a Theocracy anymore, they are not held to the portions of Levitical laws which cause for the death of homosexuals, single women who are not virgirns, etc. Regarding slavery, it is important to understand that a decent portion of what was called slavery in the Old Testament was actually indentured servitude (where someone would, in order to pay their debts to someone, put themselves in service to that person for a prescribed period of time. Once that debt was paid, their servitude ended). In cases of real slavery, there is no suggestion in the Bible that God approved of slavery. This is an interesting article speaking about your other slavery concerns. http://www.biblepages.web.surftown.se/eo…

I think as a gay person, it offends you that the Bible speaks about homosexuality as a sin. I totally understand that. What I think that people miss is that homosexuality is just one of a boat load of sins listed in the Bible. I have gay friends who know where I stand on the issues of the Bible. I take the Bible at face value. . There are sins in my life that I have struggled with my whole life and those sins seem very natural to me. But my convictions are based on my belief that the Bible is divinely inspired. Dan, perhaps Christians that believe this are wrong. Perhaps the people the believe that the Bible is not truly the word of God are wrong, but I think we would agree that both beliefs cannot be correct.

I believe that people who use the Bible as an excuse to hate gay people, assault them, call them names, etc, will answer for those sins on the day of judgement. I do believe that anyone who hate gay people are not Christians. If they use the Bible as an excuse, that does not make the Bible not any more or less true. It means those people are morons. The Bible talks about right and wrong, but Jesus says "Love one Another as I have loved you". His quote does not mean that anything any of us do is okay (stealing, lying, bullying etc) is okay. But what it does mean is that we should treat one another with respect. I have been an Evangelical since I was small, and I have never known any of my believing friends to express a desire to hurt gay people in any way. True Christians are not bullies. In fact Dan, I have stood up to the bullies my entire life, both for myself and to bullies that picked on people because of their race, ethnicity, religious beliefs and YES, to people who call gay people names and have jumped in on one occasion to a gay person who was being threatened with violence. If I was out and saw you or your husband being threatened or called names, I would not hestiatate, and I believe it would be my responsibility to jump in and defend you, even at the risk of my own safety.

I apologize for such a long response, but I want you to know that we can disagree without being disagreeable. We can love one another as Jesus commanded, without approving of each others failures/sins (mine are too many to mention, and I fight them daily).
More...
Posted by JMac on April 30, 2012 at 7:29 AM · Report this
167
Oh, and by the way Dan, I think this controversy about your remarks is a good thing because it propels your remarks into a wider audience of intolerant people who may get to hear your full comments if even only a few are listening.

So many of those on the so-called fundamentalist right remind me of the way the kids who were brainwashed by the Tony and Susan Alamo Foundation (bible-spouting cult) 30 years ago in LA, the Children of God, and others, and swallowed a clever mix of facts and fiction. As we saw then, and how, for some the ends justify the means.

Those who engage in this corrupt intellectual practice cannot see that evil can be found in the claim of moral authority to do violence to others. This kind of thinking, if unchecked, reduces our immunity to sliding into a totalitatian abyss as other institutions and societies have before us.

RMD, J.D.
San Diego, California
Posted by SDRicardo on April 30, 2012 at 7:50 AM · Report this
Fortunate 168
"A smart Christian friend involved politics writes: "In America today you just can't refer, even tangentially, to someone's religion as 'bullshit.' You should apologize for using that word.""

That may be true if you are a politician, but not because it isn't true. Only because it will cost you votes.

Not being a politician I can say anything I want. So here, let me do my best Penn Jillette imitation and say;

Christianity is Bullshit!

And while I'm at it,

Islam is Bullshit!

Judaism is Bullshit!

Hinduism is Bullshit!

Buddhism is Bullshit!

Mormonism is Bullshit!

Janism is Bullshit!

Wicca is Bullshit!

Baha'i is Bullshit!

And Scientology, well yes, it's Bullshit too, but fucking crazier bullshit than even Mormonism (and that's an extra-large bucket of crazy right there).

There you go. ALL religion is Bullshit! Sorry, I know I missed a bunch, but don't worry, if it is a religion you can be sure it is a bunch of Bullshit.

Posted by Fortunate on April 30, 2012 at 8:04 AM · Report this
169
Meh. Fuck'em. You were right.
Posted by jfquackenbush on April 30, 2012 at 8:45 AM · Report this
kim in portland 170
@ 166,

How about his own personal experience with self-proclaimed Christians? How about the experience of others like John Shore or my own? Do you really think we are supposed to just shrug our shoulders because you say that Christians who misuse scripture aren't real Christians and thus we can't feel angry and speak out against their hypocrisy? What about all those self-proclaimed Christians that disagree with you? What about Peter LaBarbara, Brian Brown, Tony Perkins and NOM's Maggie G? How about registered commenters on this very blog like Seattleblues or Loveschild and the many unregisterd? Or what about pastor Jeff Owens from Shenandoah Bible Baptist Church and his sermon that promoted physically hurting gay people? Or the students at St. Charles North High School in suburban Chicago who chose to wear t-shirts with "Straight Pride" on the front and "If a man lay with a male as those who lay with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination and shall surely be put to DEATH," on the back? Or how about Anoka-Hennepin School Districts "neutrality policy" that permits staff and teachers to ignore bullying for religious reasons?

I'm guessing that you do not intend to be blaming Dan Savage for his experience with self-proclaimed Christians. You really want him to know that not all self-proclaimed Christians treat others abusively and use the Bible as justification, right? He was raised by a fine Christ-like woman. He knows proclaimed Christians who stand with him and actively work to see that everyone is treated equally under the law. So you don't need to defend Christianity and by doing so attempt to deny him the realities of what he has suffered at the "hands" of fellow self-proclaimed Christians. You only need to counter those self-proclaimed Christians who don't act Christ-like and who use the Bible as their justification.

Kind regards.
More...
Posted by kim in portland http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/11/fast-paced_video_provides_a_fu.html on April 30, 2012 at 9:15 AM · Report this
Griffin 171
@166, consider all of Jesus' teachings about divorce and how it's all adultery, and then explain how my former evangelical pastor (I was too young to not be forced to go to church at the time) was able to rectify that with his 3 marriages, all while calling out "queers and faggots" as the root of all evil. Consider what Paul has to say about women speaking in church and explain why most Protestant denominations allow women in the pulpit.

Colossians 3:22 and Ephesians 6:5-9 are pretty straightforward about slavery. You may argue that we don't get the context of the verses, or that we don't fully understand the conditions of slavery. Contextual analysis is pretty much not allowed when anyone of the "but the Bible tells me so" persuasion starts in on Leviticus, the letters of Paul, or the story of Sodom and Gomorrah as the basis for attacking gays and lesbians. You cannot have it both ways--context is either allowed or it isn't.

Yes, there are plenty of sins laid out in the Bible. What is bullshit is saying that this one is somehow worse than that one, as Paul says in Romans 3:23.
Posted by Griffin on April 30, 2012 at 9:17 AM · Report this
kim in portland 173
@166,

I think fellow proclaimed Christian John Shore addresses your feelings about students being bullied by Dan Savage at the Journelism on the Edge conference very eloquently.

"What immediately become a meme amongst Dan’s critics is that those who walked out of his talk felt bullied by him. But that’s impossible. People get bullied because of who they are: how they look and act, what they say and do. Perceived as being in some critical way weak or lacking, victims of bullies are selected for persecution; they are pulled from the pack before being pointedly and repeatedly victimized. The people who walked out during Dan’s talk were not separated from their peers by anyone. They were content to do that themselves. They were not frightened or cowed. They were offended. They felt that by disparaging what amounts to their God, Dan had transgressed beyond their capacity for toleration. And they were pleased to show their intolerance of Dan’s words by protesting against them in the manner they did. Theirs was not an act born of suffering. It was a proud show of disdain."

Kind regards.
Posted by kim in portland http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/11/fast-paced_video_provides_a_fu.html on April 30, 2012 at 9:32 AM · Report this
smajor82 174
Why do people argue with the Bible defenders? Expecting rational thinking from someone who thinks all of life's answers are in a big book with lots of stories and magic is a little crazy.
Posted by smajor82 on April 30, 2012 at 9:39 AM · Report this
Rob in Baltimore 175
166, You do know that the New Testament has a lot of creepy stuff in it too, right. Slavery is condoned in the NT. Women are not to braid their hair, or wear gold or pearls according to the NT. Women are also to remain silent in church, and be subservient to their husbands in the NT, and that's just few of the things that modern Christian ignore in the New Testament of the Bible.

Also, Christians love to quote the Jesus fulfilled the law quote, but leave off the last part.

The Fulfillment of the Law

17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.


It says the OT laws must be practiced, not ignored.

Posted by Rob in Baltimore http://www.wishbookweb.com/ on April 30, 2012 at 9:44 AM · Report this
Eric P 177
Dear Dan
In your apology to journalism students this week offended by being called "pansy-assed", I wish you could have also clarified by adding: pansy, lazy-assed. Lazy, weak-willed, sheep-like, pushovers. Brain-washed, knuckle-dragging Neanderthals. Asleep at the wheel, irresponsible, childish, cowardly non-thinkers. You did mention hypercritical, but did forgot to also add: shameful, mean-spirited, unloving, ridiculous, arrogant, ignorant, tired, preposterous, absurd and hateful. Challenging a journalism student on the threshold of a new career with the charge of laziness would surely rock the boat and with the implication of all else (ignorance, etc.), might also help sew the seeds of change in the way people understand each other. There is nothing wrong with pushing back, nothing at all with questioning the status quo, with rocking the boat. A journalism student should know better...needs to know better. Thank you for rocking the boat!
Posted by Eric P http://ericpitsenbarger.com/ on April 30, 2012 at 9:48 AM · Report this
Eric P 178
Dear Dan
In your apology to journalism students this week offended by being called "pansy-assed", I wish you could have also clarified by adding: pansy, LAZY-assed. Lazy, weak-willed, sheep-like, pushovers. Brain-washed, knuckle-dragging Neanderthals. Asleep at the wheel, irresponsible, childish, cowardly non-thinkers. You did mention hypocritical, but did forgot to also add: shameful, mean-spirited, unloving, ridiculous, arrogant, ignorant, tired, preposterous, absurd and hateful. Challenging a journalism student on the threshold of a new career with the charge of laziness would surely rock the boat and with the implication of all else (ignorance, etc.), might also help sew the seeds of change in the way people understand each other. There is nothing wrong with pushing back, nothing at all with questioning the status quo, with rocking the boat. A journalism student should know better...needs to know better. Thank you for rocking the boat!
Posted by Eric P http://ericpitsenbarger.com/ on April 30, 2012 at 9:52 AM · Report this
Rob in Baltimore 179
176, Mocking the Bible is not bullying anyone. A speaker that gives a lecture with a different point of view about the Bible is not bullying anyone. Being offended is not equal to being bullied.
Posted by Rob in Baltimore http://www.wishbookweb.com/ on April 30, 2012 at 9:57 AM · Report this
180
The bigotry found here is quite astonishing, especially for people supposedly fighting against bigotry. Apparently it's only "bigotry" if it's against ones own beliefs and values. Please, continue with whatever it is you're doing and show the rest of us "bigots" just how justified we are in having a difference of opinion.
Posted by skowronek on April 30, 2012 at 9:58 AM · Report this
181
Additionally, believing that it's perfectly okay for sentient beings to mate with others of their own gender, is as (or more so) irrational as believing an almighty God send us the Bible. So people trying to bring rationale into this discussion is rather humorous.
Posted by skowronek on April 30, 2012 at 10:10 AM · Report this
182
We all have our little quirks don't we?
Posted by skowronek on April 30, 2012 at 10:12 AM · Report this
183
This whole tempest in a teapot is just the most recent example of manufactured Republican outrage of the kind for which they have become the world's leading experts. I know it's nearly impossible to do, Dan, but try to ignore the fuss as much as possible. There will be a new manufactured outrage for the media to latch onto this week, mark my word.
Posted by tniel on April 30, 2012 at 10:24 AM · Report this
184
Sorry. You stepped WAY over the line. You have done a great deal of good through the past few years, and for that we are all grateful. Sadly, your anti-Christian bias threatens to undo all your valuable efforts.

You do owe a number of apologies, as well as an overall re-thinking of your outlook on others. No one accomplishes much by belittling or dismissing others -- or their views -- no matter how great the disagreements.

Please reconsider. Don't let your hard work be wasted.
Posted by sfbinms on April 30, 2012 at 10:27 AM · Report this
186
@180, 181 and 182. I don't think you know what the word 'bigot' means. By your usage, you're implying Quakersare bigots due to their vastly different reading of the bible and moreso where they feel one should follow it.
Sadly, all the posts that are calling foul over this lecture continue to ignore the basic question posed by Savage. As a society that many of its members follow a book as a starting point for ethical debate, we find ourselves leaving parts behind. Some for very good reasons, I think only the most radical would argue against that notion. Savage simply points out people have done it before, why can't they again?
Gay people aren't mating, silly. My wife and I don't mate. We have sex. We aren't trying to procreate. Very few people have sex for the sake of procreation. Please don't use that as an arguement against gay people. Otherwise you're hating on all the post-menopuasel women, men who are sterile and a host of other folks who aren't 'normal' due to their inability to mate.
Now that that's been cleared up, let me ask you a question: as a Christian, what have you do to help the helpless and promote peace?
Posted by CbytheSea on April 30, 2012 at 10:37 AM · Report this
187
Put me in the camp that says the walkout was a prearranged demonstration. Something about the presentation of many of those walking out: body language, facial expression, if nothing else, just how instantly the first few jumped up and ran for the exit. That wasn't taking offense in the moment, it was a staged response to Dan's already well-known views on the Bible.

Which frankly makes the response not pansy-assed, but dishonest. Spare me the faux case of the vapors, and just say what you mean, which in this case means standing up tall to defend the proposition that the Bible is right when it says homosexuality is wrong, just like it was infallible about shellfish, mixed fiber clothing, haircuts, lack of haircuts, and slavery.
Posted by avast2006 on April 30, 2012 at 10:40 AM · Report this
188
@184. Questioning the bible is not bullying Christians. Do you think of Martin Luther as a bully? Or any biblical scholar for that matter?
If you consider Savage's speech bullying, you have had a wonderfully peaceful life. I'd be envious but I worry that this only shows your unwillingness or perhaps inability to critically read and view events within a historical context.
Posted by CbytheSea on April 30, 2012 at 10:42 AM · Report this
189
@CybtheSea: My comments were directed more to the comments on the board (a little towards Dave). According to most definitions of "bigotry" many of the comments fall right in line, I respect your disagreement though. Re: my "mating" comment, I was more trying to make a point regarding the vitriolic hurling of opinions, everyone has at least one, me included. I may disagree with peoples lifestyles, but I don't go around, especially openly to schools, spewing hate speech with the sword of LBGT community behind me.
Posted by skowronek on April 30, 2012 at 10:45 AM · Report this
190
@187 I couldn't agree more. The part that bums me out is Protestants were born from questioning the status quo. I'm sure some of these 'offended' people are Catholic but the Protestants are clearly forgetting their roots. Roots that show pragmaticism and courage. Something sorely lacking.
That said, walking out as a aspiring journalist is pretty cowardly. If you decide to follow that field as a career, you're going to have to face things that make you uncomfortable.
Posted by CbytheSea on April 30, 2012 at 10:51 AM · Report this
191
@CybtheSea: "as a Christian, what have you do to help the helpless and promote peace". Christ promoted love and charity, but also responsibility and morality (10 commandments, sermon on the mount, etc). As for me, I feel I do some but wish I had time to do more, probably not that dissimilar to a lot of people. I donate to my church charities, serve where I can, and help others in need when I see it. You?
Posted by skowronek on April 30, 2012 at 10:58 AM · Report this
192
@189. You're making a point by being the thing you disagree with? Isn't there a quote about that? Eye for an eye?
Bigotry much like racism relies on a greater context provided by the power relationship between the two parties. What you're witnessing within these comments are antagonisms not bigotry. That would require gay people to have power. Considering that people create laws that target them and not Christians. It's pretty clear who is in power.
The reason why bigotry is worse than simplying disliking or even hating another group. Is that bigotry is legitimatized by the larger society, it is hatred that is systemic. When it is that deeply woven into a culture it becomes much more dangerous becuase people assume it is normal.
Posted by CbytheSea on April 30, 2012 at 11:00 AM · Report this
193
Hello Dan,

First, I want to thank you for all that you have done to bring attention to the deep pain and damage that bullying has caused in many many peoples lives.

I am a 59 year old women who has spoken up for any and everyone, for as long as I can remember. If anyone is being taunted or harassed for anything, I am hurt deeply. I feel their pain. I was taunted in early school for being too thin… too pale… a squeaky voice … freckles, etc. I was later bullied in school for being pretty… and yes, that is a serious problem for young ladies in middle school and high school. I was bullied for who my brother was… and, bullied because my parents were able to provide me with nce things. I grew up in So Cal, and I embrace the diversity… and, love people!

I have stood up for people being bullied for being fat, skinny, ugly, lesbian, gay, physically handicapped, Black, Latino, Indian, Muslim, Catholic, Hindu, etc.

When I heard you taunting and judging every young Christian's heart at your recent speaking engagement, in essence "bullying", I was saddened and sickened by the irreversible damage you have done to your movement.

I am a Christian who LOVES gay, lesbian, bi-sexual, transgendered, heterosexual, etc, people! I LOVE people! Truly! There are many many many Christians that love and support all people. And, they would come to the aide of anyone who was being harassed or taunted or bullied for their sexual preference.

Bullying is never ok… ever. It divides. It hurts. It leaves a scar.
Hurting others, because you have been hurt, keeps the cycle going.
Posted by LvPeople on April 30, 2012 at 11:01 AM · Report this
194
A smart Christian friend involved politics writes: "In America today you just can't refer, even tangentially, to someone's religion as 'bullshit.' You should apologize for using that word."

However smart, your Christian friend is wrong; wrong, wrong, wrong. Yes you can refer to someone's religion as bullshit. No you should not apologize for using that word. We can call homeopathy bullshit, we can call "quantum spirituality" bullshit, and we can call a religion (or all religion) bullshit. Religion doesn't have some special right to deference. On the contrary, it has a duty to be wide open to criticism, because of the immense hold it has on people's lives and minds.
Posted by OpheliaBenson http://freethoughtblogs.com/butterfliesandwheels/ on April 30, 2012 at 11:07 AM · Report this
195
@CbytheSea: I would argue the "power" you feel you lack. Feel free to attempt to legitimize bigotry/hate/whatever your term for it. As an LDS Christian, I can assure you that you are not the only "population segment" to feel attacked.
Posted by skowronek on April 30, 2012 at 11:08 AM · Report this
196
Hello Dan,

First, I want to thank you for all that you have done to bring attention to the deep pain and damage that bullying has caused in many many peoples lives.

I am a 59 year old women who has spoken up for any and everyone, for as long as I can remember. If anyone is being taunted or harassed for anything, I am hurt deeply. I feel their pain. I was taunted in early school for being too thin… too pale… a squeaky voice … freckles, etc. I was later bullied in school for being pretty… and yes, that is a serious problem for young ladies in middle school and high school. I was bullied for who my brother was… and, bullied because my parents were able to provide me with nce things. I grew up in So Cal, and I embrace the diversity… and, love people!

I have stood up for people being bullied for being fat, skinny, ugly, lesbian, gay, physically handicapped, Black, Latino, Indian, Muslim, Catholic, Hindu, etc.

When I heard you taunting and judging every young Christian's heart at your recent speaking engagement, in essence "bullying", I was saddened and sickened by the irreversible damage you have done to your movement.

I am a Christian who LOVES gay, lesbian, bi-sexual, transgendered, heterosexual, etc, people! I LOVE people! Truly! There are many many many Christians that love and support all people. And, they would come to the aide of anyone who was being harassed or taunted or bullied for their sexual preference.

Bullying is never ok… ever. It divides. It hurts. It leaves a scar.
Hurting others, because you have been hurt, keeps the cycle going.
Posted by LvPeople on April 30, 2012 at 11:08 AM · Report this
197
A smart Christian friend involved politics writes: "In America today you just can't refer, even tangentially, to someone's religion as 'bullshit.' You should apologize for using that word."

However smart, your Christian friend is wrong; wrong, wrong, wrong. Yes you can refer to someone's religion as bullshit. No you should not apologize for using that word. We can call homeopathy bullshit, we can call "quantum spirituality" bullshit, and we can call a religion (or all religion) bullshit. Religion doesn't have some special right to deference. On the contrary, it has a duty to be wide open to criticism, because of the immense hold it has on people's lives and minds.
Posted by OpheliaBenson http://freethoughtblogs.com/butterfliesandwheels/ on April 30, 2012 at 11:11 AM · Report this
Bonefish 198
I don't think you should apologize. The fact that it's accurate to call homophobes "pansy-assed" is their own fault, not ours. If they don't like it, they can stop being such weak, coddled, whiny, cowardly little control freaks.

Of course, this would cause them to also stop being homophobes in the first place, since they'd lose their sense of entitlement to control other people (plus having a thicker skin makes homosexuality less "offensive").

Sure, these are high school kids, but I knew better at that age and so should they.
Posted by Bonefish on April 30, 2012 at 11:12 AM · Report this
199
@191 that wasn't an invitation for a pious-off. I'm a Friend and feel that our organization does help the world be a better place. I wish I could do more, but alas I work 2 jobs do there isn't all that much time for good feeds.
But that's not my point, my point was instead of wasting energy on something so small like who is sleeping with who and focus on the larger issues on hand. There's still too much pro-war blunderbuss and too little genuine empathy for the downtrodden of this world.
Posted by CbytheSea on April 30, 2012 at 11:13 AM · Report this
200
@195. I see that isn't going anywhere. I understand the history of the LDS, but claiming victimhood is like Irish Americans doing the same.
LDS is one of the most radical departures from the Christianty of its day. Did Joseph Smith bully people when he discovered the tablets? I think not. I would never argue that. I don't think any reasonable person would. I'm not saying Savage is on par with Luther, Smith, etc. what am I saying there is a long and proud tradition among Protestants of re-contextualizing the bible. Savage may have used coarse language but the point is the same.
Posted by CbytheSea on April 30, 2012 at 11:24 AM · Report this
201
What’s the currently acceptable term for a gay male blogger? A blaggot? A glogger? A blomo? Whatever it is, Dan Savage is probably the most prominent one in the blogosphere. He was the one who created Rick Santorum’s frothy, feces-flecked “Google problem.” He also claimed that while sick with the flu, he once licked almost everything he could find in Iowa Republican Gary Bauer’s office, including doorknobs, keyboards, staplers, phones, and clean coffee cups. (He later claimed he had made up the entire incident, and he’s also been caught repeatedly lying about his age, so he may suffer from a low T-cell count—with “T” standing for “truth.”)

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Posted by vanderleun on April 30, 2012 at 11:32 AM · Report this
202
Are you Christian parents preparing your kids for encounters like this? As the world becomes more and more hostile to Christian's we should be teaching our children the Bible basics so they know how to stay focused when the Bible and their God is attacked. This speaker is quoting Old Testament laws that where specific to the Covenant with Israel and breaking those commandments meant there must be a blood atonement/sacrifice. The New Testament Covenant is that Jesus is the one-time sacrifice given as a gift by God so that we may receive forgiveness when we break the commandments. The speaker says we "ignore" the Laws of the Bible. No, we do not ignore the law; but have accepted Jesus’ offer to stand in our place and pay the debt. The speaker then misquotes and twists the verses on slavery; the Bible does not encourage it- but states "If" you are in bondage to act as though you are working for God; don't let your circumstances corrupt your character. Then scripture directs slave-owners to treat their slave's humanely and with dignity. Take time to learn your Bible... And remember, Jesus loves you!
Posted by Image8000 on April 30, 2012 at 11:35 AM · Report this
203
But thirty years after graduating from high school, Dan Savage is STILL acting like a fag and stewing over what was apparently some tremendous emotional scarring. Aided and abetted by such perennially bullied and oppressed entities such as Apple, Microsoft, and the US federal government—a bully if there ever was one—Dan has launched one of those “nonprofit” things called “It Gets Better” to help protect teenagers from being bullied. (Never mind that according to some studies, it doesn’t get better.)

Instead of “It Gets Better,” how about “Get Over It!” or even “Get Over Yourself!” or maybe “Didn’t You Graduate From High School a Long Time Ago?”

Please share this article by using the link below. When you cut and paste an article, Taki's Magazine misses out on traffic, and our writers don't get paid for their work. Email editors@takimag.com to buy additional rights. http://takimag.com/article/tiptoeing_thr…
Posted by vanderleun on April 30, 2012 at 11:36 AM · Report this
204
@200 I agree, it isn't going anywhere. Carry on.
Posted by skowronek on April 30, 2012 at 11:39 AM · Report this
kim in portland 205
Please go watch the video @193 & @ 196. Forget what you heard and go watch it.

Dan Savage did not isolate those journalism students for being Christians and he did not taunt "every young Christian's heart". He did not bully them. Those students separated themselves from the group. They chose to express their disagreement by walking out. He called them on their walking out, walking out on a journalism confrence that focused on balancing on the edge of legitimate public interest and the interests of those who would rather differing views not be published. Their leaving was their expressing their unwillingness to tolerate his differing view on the use of Bible as justification to deny LGBT people equal rights now and to point out that the Bible was viewed as justification for slavery in the past. He called their choice to march out "pansy-assed," he did not call them out as individuals "pansy-assed". Considering that the confrence was designed to help students balance the legitimate public interest with those they disagree with, their leaving shows that they presently lack the journalistic skills and integrity to report without bias on subjects they disagree with.

By the way, your "every young Christian's heart" is being extreme. You deny that some Christians agree with Dan.
Posted by kim in portland http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/11/fast-paced_video_provides_a_fu.html on April 30, 2012 at 11:41 AM · Report this
venomlash 206
@166: "Regarding Levitical laws, you need to understand that this was when Israel was under a Theocracy, and only applied to them."
Judaism would like to disagree with you on this. There are some commandments that can no longer be carried out, as the Temple no longer exists, but Jews throughout history have adhered to the remainder as best as possible.
Posted by venomlash on April 30, 2012 at 11:44 AM · Report this
209
Dan,

I see your apology and raise you a sincere thank you for saying what you did in the first place.

See, you apologized for saying this:
"It's funny, as someone who's on the receiving end of beatings that are justified by the Bible, how pansy-assed some people react when you push back."

But that’s exactly what so many of us, including me, really needed to hear. As a grown woman who was raised in a fundie household with a pastor for a step-dad, and one who was recently bullied online by family members, I needed to hear this. I was bullied for standing up to Limbaugh’s tirade over Sandra Fluke, less than a month after having emergency surgery for a large cyst on my ovary and basically being exactly one of the examples that Fluke gave in her testimony.

So why am I telling you all this? Because I got the same condescending and often subtle “Christian” bullying in relation to my reproductive health that gay kids get in regards to who they are. I was preached at for standing up for something about myself that I cannot change in a manner that was hostile and rife with the kind of judgment that some people feel the Bible justifies.

And I pushed back.
And it was hell. My own mother took the side of the bully. Needless to say we don’t talk much anymore because the reaction from both her, the bully, and my step-dad was utterly pansy-assed. They simply didn’t want to hear it, much less deal with a strong, intelligent woman standing up for herself and discussing the complexities of the Bible and the failure of many modern-day evangelicals to respect women, gays, the poor, and whatever else their conservative pundits choose to shine their scalding light upon. And through that horrible time, I understood on a personal level, just how important pushing back is.

The stark reality is that any belief system that says, “Do what I say, or else,” is based on an ultimatum that is also at the heart of bullying. And the fact that you took such knowledgeable and forthright pains to call out the selective nature of how a text like the Bible is used, well that just shows that you aren’t just attacking people’s beliefs. Instead it shows that you’ve taken the time, much like myself and all my recovering-from-dogma friends, to really attempt to understand both the positive and the negative in these belief systems and how they can be better.

Those kids that got up and walked out were journalism students. To be a journalist you have to be able to consider utterly disparate points of view. When I was still a teen, I confronted my mother about the horrible things she used to say about gay people. Like when I lived in the predominantly gay area of Minneapolis, and she wouldn’t let my brother visit because a “pedophile would get him.” Midway through the discussion, she got up and ran to her room and slammed the door. Sound familiar?

It’s bullshit. Both in the actions that stem from it, and in the consistent picking and choosing of what page of that big ‘ol book is going to be used on which occasion.

Try the “love the sinner, hate the sin” in many other situations. What if they loved me but hated the fact that I need to take birth control for the rest of my life and saw that as an abomination? Or since I’m a writer down to my bones, what if they loved me but hated that I wrote, hated what I wrote, and saw my entire life’s work as an abomination?
It just doesn’t work.
Why?
Because it’s not love.
And pushing back often is what makes that clear.
Especially for kids who grow up gay in homes like mine. Especially for girls who are not the limited and often submissive ideals in the Bible. Especially so the next generation of kids can see the ultimatum of “or else you’re going to hell” for the veiled threat that it is.

It is awful to know that you are not loved. It is awful to have silence and shunning and the knowledge that they pray for your soul because it is not enough for them.

And it needs to be called out.
So thank you for doing it.

-Carrie

More...
Posted by Vicarious24 on April 30, 2012 at 11:52 AM · Report this
210
@204. Before you take off, I'm assuming you'll be gone tomorrow as you only joined today to complain on this thread. As this debate goes on, I ask you to reflect on all the changes LDS has gone through in its short life. Change happens, your church has shown a lot of courage when dealing with the outside world and moving in a pragmatic fashion.
Posted by CbytheSea on April 30, 2012 at 11:54 AM · Report this
kim in portland 211
Okay this thread had jumped the shark. Locked minds remain locked until an individual has the courage to open it. But hey SLOG has more page hits and that translates to more financial revenue.

And may the self-proclaimed victimized Christian majority feel like their "sufferings" have been acknowledged. May they all return to acting Christ-like in both his care for the poor and rejected and with the quiet grace he bore during his suffering. His are big shoes to fill.

Take care.
Posted by kim in portland http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/11/fast-paced_video_provides_a_fu.html on April 30, 2012 at 11:54 AM · Report this
Rob in Baltimore 212
The horror! Journalism students heard an opinion that differs from their own!
Posted by Rob in Baltimore http://www.wishbookweb.com/ on April 30, 2012 at 12:02 PM · Report this
213
It was great and true speech. It's typical of xtians to deride any one who questions the validity of their opinions, facts be damned. (Isn't that the definition of "faith" in the first place? " Believing in something regardless of evidence?"

It was big of you to apologize for calling them pansy assed. Nothing wrong with trying to keep the discussion above name calling. Given the name calling coming from the right, it's pretty tame really.

Cheers! Speak more truth to power!
Posted by stcrispy on April 30, 2012 at 12:09 PM · Report this
214
@202
"Then scripture directs slave-owners to treat their slave's humanely and with dignity."

But scripture does not say to release the slaves TODAY and to never own them from this day onward.

But it would be very easy for Jesus to have said that. Very easy.

But he did not.
Posted by fairly.unbalanced on April 30, 2012 at 12:11 PM · Report this
Bonefish 215
203: One guy wants to be left alone. Another guy wants to be the grand arbiter of what everyone else gets to do in the bedroom.

Which one needs to "get over himself," again?

And the whole point is that Dan is helping kids who ARE still in high school (although I wouldn't expect a homophobe to grasp something so complicated). Oh, and your "magazine" sucks too. Don't quit your day job.

202: Do you know why Dan is quoting the Old Testament? Because that's what CHRISTIANS quote to justify anti-gay bigotry. Dan didn't yank the Old Testament into this debate. You guys did. You don't get to hide behind the OT when you want to bash gays, but then hide behind the New Testament and claim that the OT is suddenly unimportant when people point out the OT's flaws (or the parts of the OT that Christians disobey).

Your inconsistency still stands. If we can eat shellfish and wear polyester because Jesus paid the price for those sins, then why can't we accept homosexuality for the same reason? If we can't criticize Christians using the Old Testament because it was replaced by the New Testament, then why do Christians keep citing the Old Testament to justify anti-gay bigotry in the first place?

To switch back-and-forth and say that the OT is important when you want to use it to justify homophobia, but then suddenly unimportant again when a quote from it makes your religion look bad (or when you want to eat shrimp), is intellectually dishonest. Which is another word for lying. Which is a sin.

Also: telling slave owners to be kind to their slaves is still encouraging slavery. If God is all-powerful, there is no reason for him not to straight up tell them to stop enslaving people entirely. Anything short of that, therefore, shows approval for the existence of slavery, even if he does want them to cut down on the whippings a tad.

But I'm not here for a biblical debate. My point is, even if every single page of the bible told you to hate gays with all your heart, you'd still have no right to expect gays to tolerate such behavior in public schools. If Dan was a bit stern in communicating this, just be glad that he's not doing the "Christian" thing and tying anti-gay bullies to fence posts. A mild challenge to your worldview is not oppression, and the fact that you're even comparing the two plights speaks to how sheltered and weak you are.

More...
Posted by Bonefish on April 30, 2012 at 12:14 PM · Report this
216
Dan, great speech but you should have never apologized. Your opponents are pansy-assed and they would prefer you and your partner, as well as all gay people, be dead. They work everyday to pass laws to make it easier to threaten, harass, and commit violence against GLBT Americans. They don't deserve any apology or moderation.
Posted by Enlightened Liberal on April 30, 2012 at 12:23 PM · Report this
dwightmoodyforgetsthings 217
@30- God as represented in the Bible is well served by bitchy assholes. He's jealous, capricious and tyrannical. The New Testament gives you the option of partaking in a bloody act of human/divine sacrifice to get out from under his thumb.
Posted by dwightmoodyforgetsthings http://www.reddit.com/r/spaceclop on April 30, 2012 at 12:26 PM · Report this
Corylea 218
Funny, I thought lying was against one of the commandments ... but the Christian Right (as opposed to all Christians) lies and lies and lies some more. They're lying about YOU, Dan; don't let them get away with it!
Posted by Corylea http://corylea.com/ on April 30, 2012 at 12:36 PM · Report this
dwightmoodyforgetsthings 219
@78- Your argument is completely predicated on the existence of a god as described in The Bible. Thus it is absurd.
Posted by dwightmoodyforgetsthings http://www.reddit.com/r/spaceclop on April 30, 2012 at 12:46 PM · Report this
221
Every religion is, mostly, bullshit. I have every right to believe that, and express that however I like--and so does every other American.

Obviously other people are free to disagree with me, and to express their own views.

Its called "Freedom of Conscience" and "Freedom of Speech," and they really aren't very complicated concepts.
Posted by Functional Atheist on April 30, 2012 at 1:06 PM · Report this
sugar2s 222
Wow, Dan is all over breitbart.com, apparently because he and Obama are besties.
Posted by sugar2s on April 30, 2012 at 1:12 PM · Report this
223
Does anyone know what came before and after the clip that has gone viral? I fully agree with and support just about everything in the clip we keep seeing, and am ambivalent about needing to apologize for the pansy-assed comment, I want to see the rest of it.

Was this actually the start of the talk, immediately after Dan was introduced? And what came after the "Okay I'm done with the Bible" part?

Posted by Lymis on April 30, 2012 at 1:16 PM · Report this
Roosevelt 224
You spoke the absolute truth, Dan. Don't let the bastards get you down. Thanks for taking the high road on the apology.
Posted by Roosevelt http://www.youtube.com/user/matthewcobrien?feature=mhum on April 30, 2012 at 1:19 PM · Report this
balderdash 225
Yeah, no apology was needed here. When your beliefs are indefensible, walking away instead of participating in a discussion is weak at best and morally negligent at worst.
Posted by balderdash http://introverse.blogspot.com on April 30, 2012 at 1:21 PM · Report this
228
Hey Dan - I love your show - I am a big podcast listener and i turn a lot of people onto you. i am a christian minister and i am a lesbian - it is a difficult blend and as a result i have become a big advocate for people who are lgbtqi in the church and outside the church. anyway - i watched the video of the high school journalism conference because it has created a buzz. i read your apology. my only comment is that i don't think there is a such thing as authentic dialogue about this topic with kids in high school. developmentally they sharp as tacks, but on a moral scale, most are unable to think outside their own paradigm. i was a liberal kid and i had little patience for conservatives. and i know the same is true for conservatives... I guess my point is that i wonder what it is you were trying to accomplish by using your heated language. some tell me they think you are a shock jock. perhaps i am naive, but i think you are a truth teller and i don't put you in the shock jock category. but i do think your language was unproductive. i agree with everything you said about scripture, but there is a way to speak about it without being completely disrespectful of your "opponent"... oh - and once you start using "opponent" language, you are sunk. anyway - i have never written in for your podcast (maybe one day), but i thought i would write here! Rev. Audrey Connor
Posted by preacherchick on April 30, 2012 at 1:40 PM · Report this
229
@226 Thank you, Doctor Mengele.
Posted by Ken Mehlman on April 30, 2012 at 1:41 PM · Report this
230
I like to think of myself as a Christian because it best describes the church I attend. I try to explore, through faith, how to bring love into the world and rid it of fear and hate. Dan, you are one of the best examples of the kind of person I want to be. I have sat my kids down in front of It Gets Better a handful of times to show them what true love and acceptance is (current favorite: LA Gay Men's Chorus singing 'True Colors'). Please keep doing what you do because you do it so well. I admire your passion and drive to stand up to people who try to keep anyone from having a voice.
Posted by mania on April 30, 2012 at 1:48 PM · Report this
231
Dan, I was one of the teachers at that conference and I spoke to you afterward about being the "Stonewall" of this generation. There are monumental moments and people throughout history who set into motion something much larger than the original moment or person. I told you that YOU are one of those people and I stand by that statement. YOU are making a difference. One day we will all look back upon "It Gets Better" as one of those seminal movements and you as its spark.

Good on you, sir.
Posted by jebaugh on April 30, 2012 at 2:04 PM · Report this
232
@226. That's totally insane. Do any of you conservatives want to denounce this guy?
@227. Though it'd be neat to see, Islam is not a powerful force in America. Besides if he did lambast the Koran, would you defend him? Thought so.
Posted by CbytheSea on April 30, 2012 at 2:05 PM · Report this
233
Dan, I was one of the teachers at that conference and I spoke to you afterward about being the "Stonewall" of this generation. There are monumental moments and people throughout history who set into motion something much larger than the original moment or person. I told you that YOU are one of those people and I stand by that statement. YOU are making a difference. One day we will all look back upon "It Gets Better" as one of those seminal movements and you as its spark.

Good on you, sir.
Posted by jebaugh on April 30, 2012 at 2:05 PM · Report this
234
Now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
- Romans 3:21-24; The Holy Bible
Posted by strongam on April 30, 2012 at 2:20 PM · Report this
Lissa 238
@234: And? Your point? We're all sinners? What? I'm sure you think your post is deeply profound, and maybe if I were extremely stoned ( after freaking out about how weird hands and feet look if you stare at them long enough) it might elicit a mild "Whoa. Dude." from me, but I'm not stoned and you will have to do MUCH better than that if you want to play in this sandbox.

@235: As for you, accusations of cowardice flung by the unregistered and anonymous are by definition absurd.
Posted by Lissa on April 30, 2012 at 2:45 PM · Report this
239
Mr. Savage, the following link takes you to my Challenge2 blog where I have responded to your rants about the Bible. http://challenge2.wordpress.com/2012/04/…

In Christ Jesus
Jerry McDonald
Posted by Challenge2 on April 30, 2012 at 2:45 PM · Report this
240
This "we're the real victims" act by the majority (ie Christians) is getting very, very tired. I'm glad this video went viral because anyone with half a brain can see that the walk-out was both pre-planned and pitiful.

Keep preaching, Dan! The world needs to hear it now more than ever.
Posted by Sailoreic on April 30, 2012 at 2:47 PM · Report this
241
@202 You are confusing an unwillingness to keep acting as doormats with hostility towards Christianity.

I'm sure it's a painful process to go from an unquestioned majority to being expected to actually respect other's pov but you know what? Welcome to the real world. Most of us have learned how to get along with all sorts of folks and you can too.
Posted by Sailoreic on April 30, 2012 at 2:52 PM · Report this
242
Mr. Savage, the following link takes you to my Challenge2 blog where I have responded to your rants about the Bible. http://challenge2.wordpress.com/2012/04/…

In Christ Jesus
Jerry McDonald
Posted by Challenge2 on April 30, 2012 at 2:52 PM · Report this
243
@240 Yeah, the supposed reason for the walk-out was Dan's use of profanity, but the Christian kids start leaving before the first time Dan says 'bullshit'.
Posted by Ken Mehlman on April 30, 2012 at 2:54 PM · Report this
Lissa 244
@237: Biiiiiiiiig talk. What? No turning of the other cheek? You know who threatens people with violence behind a shield of unregistered anonymity?

A pansy ass.
Posted by Lissa on April 30, 2012 at 2:56 PM · Report this
245
@242. I read your piece. I won't get into your inability to answer Savage's question. None of you guys have. You've simply attacked him as a person. It looks like you really love the bible and that's fine and all. But can you answer Savage's question? Why do Christians get to pick and choose which sections to follow?
Lastly, AIDS is an acronym. It's simply spelt AIDS. Similarly STDs is plural not possessive. Please correct these typos.
Posted by CbytheSea on April 30, 2012 at 3:14 PM · Report this
249
@242
Okay, I looked at that site and you STILL couldn't address Dan's comments.

Your opinion of Jesus seems to leave out the miracles that He performed. Why is that?

Why is it that Jesus who could raise the dead, heal the blind and walk on water could NOT clearly state that slavery was wrong and for all of his followers to release their slaves that day and to oppose slavery?

Your opinion of Jesus seems to be that he was just some guy who could not speak against the existing customs of the day.
Posted by fairly.unbalanced on April 30, 2012 at 3:41 PM · Report this
251
@246. You're missing the point. Savage was arguing that Christianty is constantly changing to fit the outside world. Quakers are a great example of rejecting the mainstream theology of the day. Remember a lot of people hated the Quakers during these times. You may dislike his language but you can't deny the changing nature of Christianty. If kids want to go through life pretending things don't change. That's sad. Adults shouldn't shelter them that way.
They weren't being bullied. They are however being protected by adults who seem to have no interest in letting them be exposed to the world, this stunting their growth as people.
Posted by CbytheSea on April 30, 2012 at 3:43 PM · Report this
252
@250 if that's bullying to you. You are so out of touch with what kids deal with.
Posted by CbytheSea on April 30, 2012 at 3:45 PM · Report this
254
lol. No one takes you seriously anyways. You're the Nicki Minaj of gay rights activism.
Posted by beylime on April 30, 2012 at 3:53 PM · Report this
256
@ 253: You wrote:
"I hope all of you take a look a yourselves and ponder if you have the right to attack someone or some other group without reason."

Three quick things:
1. He apologizes in the article above if anyone felt attacked.
2. He then restates that was not attacking individuals or Christians as a group, but instead he was challenging the logic behind using the Bible to condemn gays.
3. "Without reason?" Are you kidding me? Here, read this, maybe it will clarify to you what many mainstream and evangelical Christians are using their "Bible founded" version of religion to do:
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/new…
Posted by Vicarious24 on April 30, 2012 at 4:10 PM · Report this
258
@257. You need to relearn the word love. Veiled threats aren't part of it.
Posted by CbytheSea on April 30, 2012 at 4:19 PM · Report this
259
& @ 240
Thank you.
I used to be one of those brainwashed kids. Looking back it was horrible. It's so obvious that it was staged.
And the reality is that you cannot attack people to the extent that kids are offing themselves, and then play poor little holy victim. It's a common tactic and needs to be called out for what it is.
Thanks for pointing it out.
Posted by Vicarious24 on April 30, 2012 at 4:19 PM · Report this
260
@ 257
With your comparison of being gay to having a drug addiction, and then your verging on hate speech because gay people have been killed in that manner, you have now made yourself an ideal example of the bullying that you hide behind your big old book.

Good job. You just managed to somehow prove yourself not only wrong, but completely ignorant of what Christ taught. You're the problem. Thanks for making it so obvious.
Posted by Vicarious24 on April 30, 2012 at 4:31 PM · Report this
kim in portland 261
@ 242,

I read it and you're grasping with your conclusions about slavery in the NT. And, you DID NOT answer the question Mr. Savage made! And, you ignore that the Bible has been quoted and used to justify slavery. You ignore that triangular slave trade between the west coast of Africa, the eastern seaboard of the US, and the capitals of Europe was blessed by all the churches.

All I got was you love the Bible and your convinced that your authority permits your non-answers to be sufficent. And while you made your non-answers you took the opportunity to make an attack on Mr. Savage as a person.

A mature and godly response would have acknowledged that those students were attending a confrence titled Journalism on the Edge. A confrence with a stated purpose of finding the balance on the edge of public interest and the interests of those who would rather differing views were not published. It would have acknowledged that they started walking out before anything "offensive" was said. It would honestly acknowledge that students who chose to remove themselves. Those students were not victims separated from their fellow attendees to be victimized. Those students were not suffering. they were intolerant of what Mr. Savage was saying, and they protested it by walking out.

So thank you for your non-answers and apologetics. I'm sorry you felt the need to attack Mr. Savage inorder to defend your love of your interpretation of the Bible. You're response is an excellent example as to why religious people support injustice.
Posted by kim in portland http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/11/fast-paced_video_provides_a_fu.html on April 30, 2012 at 4:32 PM · Report this
262
And yet a gain, the self-appointed champion of the bullied reveals himself to be...a bully.

I'm a gay man who would LOVE to vote for a new spokesmodel :P
Posted by Addison on April 30, 2012 at 4:36 PM · Report this
263
I think you said what needed to be said--it was high time that someone pointed out the hypocracy of the so-called "Christian" right. You forgot to mention that the "sin" of Sodom was the refusal of Lot to turn over his pre-teen female children for sex with visiting male adults, not for have sex with each other. In other words, the Bible clearly endorses pedophilia as we;;. I understand you apology for using certain words, but it seems to me that they provided the necessary shock value. The problem is that you are dealing with people who do not think--they do not ever use logic, they respond with intuitive feelings. Using logic on people who cannot even spell that word does not work. I am not sure what will, but I applaud your attempts to get them to think.
Posted by cfox on April 30, 2012 at 4:48 PM · Report this
264
I really admire your honesty and your bluntness, even when it makes people mad. The apology for using the word "pansy-assed" was completely unnecessary. Honestly, I'm angry about it. That walk out was fucking pansy-assed, and so where the people who partook in it. I'm a lesbian and, like you, I am also on the receiving end of homophobic abuse backed by the Bible, and the last thing we should be doing is apologizing because attacking the Bible makes some pansy-assed Christians sad.

I don't agree with everything you say all the time. I've vehemently disagreed with some of the advice you've given on your podcasts, and that's okay. But the one thing I've always respected about you is that you tell it like it is, and say what you believe, even if you think it will make people uncomfortable or angry.

Don't be a pansy-ass. Stop apologizing and stand your fucking ground.
Posted by Libby Mendez on April 30, 2012 at 4:59 PM · Report this
265
Homosexuality, is only 1% of this nations population. Homosexuals are redefining the family, to include all forms of sexual preferences, and they have demanded, that the 1964 Civil Rights Act, be amended, to make "sexual preference" a constitutionally protected right!

Not surprisingly, some in the African-American community feel, the minority status is being twisted to include bedroom-games, and, thereby, severely undermined.

I think that the LGBT really need to know, that there is another side to what the PRIDE is all about:

Gay Rights / Special Rights - Inside The Homosexual Agenda
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=7…
Posted by NecktopPC on April 30, 2012 at 5:01 PM · Report this
dwightmoodyforgetsthings 266
@200- "Did Joseph Smith bully people when he discovered the tablets? "

No, he conned them. It's totally different.
Posted by dwightmoodyforgetsthings http://www.reddit.com/r/spaceclop on April 30, 2012 at 5:10 PM · Report this
267
Homosexuality is only 1% of this nations population - Homosexuals are redefining the family to include all forms of sexual preferences and, they have demanded that the 1964 Civil Rights Act be amended to make "sexual preference" a constitutionally protected right.

Not surprisingly - some in the African-American community feel the minority status is being twisted to include bedroom-games, and thereby, feel severely undermined.

I think that "LGBT people", really need to know that there is another side, to what their PRIDE'S all about:

Gay Rights / Special Rights - Inside The Homosexual Agenda
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=7…
Posted by NecktopPC on April 30, 2012 at 5:10 PM · Report this
dwightmoodyforgetsthings 268
@265- The way you abuse commas ought to be criminalized.
Posted by dwightmoodyforgetsthings http://www.reddit.com/r/spaceclop on April 30, 2012 at 5:12 PM · Report this
269
Poor Dan.

It must be a living hell to be suffering with such an inferiority complex. I pity an individual that is so unsettled with themselves that they feel they need to wallow in the gutter of ridicule and mockery. Perhaps you are really attracted to woman and your hostility towards others is really a manifestation of your cravings for a woman.

Your point regarding hypocracy was a joke. It requires a series of distorted assumptions and it is a glaring example of yet another person who has no idea what the Bible says. Your arguement regarding "the bible has it wrong on slavery", would cause a present day slave to blush at your failure to understand the texts you qoute.

I am grateful to enjoy the friendship of other gay people in my life and am heartened to know that some actually are secure enough in their own life that they do not need to become a petty fearful little boy foundering around trying to verbally process their insecurities.

You got it wrong on this one Danny.

Mr D

PS..... Would you be willing to bloviate in front of a Local group of Muslims, since you seen hip on "pushing back."
Posted by Mr D on April 30, 2012 at 5:19 PM · Report this
270
@266. I was trying to explain to a Mormon how people come along and challenge the bible. Including their founder. As to the long con, you can make that judgement. I simply was pointing out that discussing the bible is a far cry from bullying.
But I'm sure none of these new posters honestly care.
Posted by CbytheSea on April 30, 2012 at 5:19 PM · Report this
271
@269. So is it okay with you for kids to bully gay kids based on the bible?
Posted by CbytheSea on April 30, 2012 at 5:27 PM · Report this
Gary Alton Russell 272
According to this statement you weren't even on topic:

http://studentpressblogs.org/nspa/?p=363

"Mr. Dan Savage had been invited to share with students the power of social media in today’s world as well as speak about the problem of bullying of gay youth, an issue all too familiar in many American schools. Mr. Savage’s comments on April 13 veered from the topic however. At a point in his speech he criticized the Bible, at times using vulgar language."

If this is correct then I think a Bible-bashing session was inappropriate. Even if it's not correct I think it was inappropriate. if we were discussing the Bible, I would be nodding in agreement and would likely also have some choice words about the Bible - particularly in how it's used to attack gays.

On one hand I think people shouldn't have been surprised - you are known as a bit of a potty mouth who doesn't mince words. But on the other hand I think it's a good idea to tailor your speech to a specific audience. An It Gets Better type of message might have been more appropriate in this case. The kind of rhetoric you chose to use might have been OK on Bill Maher. You should have known a vulgar lesson in the Bible and religious hypocrisy - while your usual schtick - probably wouldn't have gone over well at an event called the "National High School Journalist Conference".

I think there's a happy medium between taking things too far and not going far enough.
Posted by Gary Alton Russell http://garyaltonrussell.blogspot.com/ on April 30, 2012 at 5:34 PM · Report this
xjuan 273
If there were one true religion, all the other religions would be bullshit. If we knew which religion was 'the true one,' such religion would be able to eliminate its opposition. Only problem is that there's no scientific or empirical way to know which religion is the true one. Only faith can tell. But faith is the basis by which each one of those religions claim the right to be the true one. Since religions tend to exclude each other, we must assume that there is no true religion but many forms of religion. Therefore, each form of religion contains some dose of 'bullshitness', otherwise, one of them would have conquered each and every soul in this godly Earth. In this particular case, when Dan said that there were some portions of the Bible that could be considered 'bullshit,' he was not proposing his own version of a true religion; he was just trying to instill some doubt into the believer's beliefs. And that was your mistake, Dan: Those so-sensitive-young-Christians who walked away were already convinced that their religion is the true one; they had previously believed that whatever you were going to say would be considered bullshit because you have declared yourself not to be Christian, which makes you a sinner and a suspect. And a target for the Right. Keep up the fight.
Posted by xjuan on April 30, 2012 at 5:39 PM · Report this
Bonefish 275
265: If gays are so rare, all the more reason to quit fucking with them already.

You're contradicting yourself: either gay people are so rare that the abuse they suffer doesn't matter, OR they're so ubiquitous that letting them get married will shake the foundations of society and change the very definition of marriage as we know it. One or the other; those two things can't both be true at the same time.

That's the thing about people who don't share your obsession with obedience: we won't believe things simply because you say so. You have to earn our belief by presenting evidence, or at least by showing some logical consistency.

Besides, this thread isn't even about gay marriage. It's about bullying gay kids. Are you for it or against it? If you support bullying gay kids, then say so outright and quit disguising your opinions behind marriage issues like a coward. If you're against it, then you should agree with Dan: it's pathetic and dishonest when people use the bible to justify anti-gay bullying and then call themselves victims when they're challenged.

As I said before: if anti-gay people think this is equivalent to the torment that gay kids face, they are pathetically thin-skinned.
Posted by Bonefish on April 30, 2012 at 5:40 PM · Report this
276
@271. No... its never "OK" to bully. If a person uses the bible to "bully" than they are distorting scripture as much as Dan did in his bloviating .... or should I say his bullying.
Posted by Mr D on April 30, 2012 at 5:41 PM · Report this
277
I am a Christian. So here's some of my random thoughts and observations:

1) first of all I don't believe that any one should be bullied; ridiculed or persecuted for who they are or what they believe. No one. Period. If someone claims to be a follower of Christ and then bullies someone than they are either not a true follower of Christ or is one that is terribly spiritually immature.

2) since when did the defination of TOLERANCE change? To be tolerant is the ability to get along with someone that you are not in agreement with. But now days it means if you are in disagreement than you are bigoted; homophobic and intolerant.

3) Why is it that Separation of Church and State means that a religous speaker cannot come into a public school and promote his faith (I agree with this believe it or not) but it doesn't preclude someone from coming in and demeaning someone's faith? That hypocrisy. 

4) Mr. Dan Savage if you are going to quote from scripture it would do you well to understand the Book you are quoting. You completely misrepresented the Bible in nearly everything you said. Yes the Bible is a very difficult book to interpet because it was written many years ago in a completely diffrent culture. It takes very careful study to make sure it's not misinterpeted. But either you don't understand the Bible or you do and are setting up straw man arguments against it.
For one the Bible does not promote slavery. It condemns slave traders (1 Timothy) and God delivers His people from slavery in Egypt. We must also understand that the slavery mentioned in the NT is much different from the form of slavery that we think of due to our unfortunate history of race relations. In the NT if one was in debt they could work it off by becoming a slave to someone. Paul wrote to the masters of those slaves and appealed to them to treat their slaves well as in Christ both the slave and the master were equals. This was radical and unheard of in this culture.
When one quotes the laws in Leviticus one must understand that there are differentl type of laws. There are moral laws (which always stand including sexual ethics) and then there are purity laws and dietary laws which were relevant to the culture. It is okay to eat a ham sand which these days but it is still a bad idea to commit adultery.

5) When I watch this video I see Dan Savage guilty of the very same thing that he is supposed to be speaking against. Add the cheering (taunting) of the crowd and this creates a very hostile environment for students of faith.  Is "pushing back" really the answer or is it just another step in the opposite extreme? How about teaching tolerance. ( there's that word again).

6) Many Christian's (myself included) believe that homosexual acts are a sin. That does not mean that this particular sin should be elevated above the rest. We should equally be against adultery and fornication without prejudice. It is hypocritical if we make some to be greater and others lesser based on our own feelings. 

7) "Hate the sin, love the sinner". I'm sorry if one is offended by that but that is what we are taught to do. And this applies to all types of sinners. Not that we are better than anyone. We aren't. We just believe in grace. And this should bring humility not bullying. In my life I can say that I have had friends and co-workers who were gay. My daughter's god mother is a lesbian. My great grand mother may have been. A cousin of mine died of AIDS. I have cherished them all as people. Hate is the furthest thing from my mind.

8) I will go a little further ( and many of my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ will disagree with me) but though I'm opposed to the very idea of gay marriage I'm not opposed to consenting adults making up their own minds on this and having the right to pursue this if they choose. Since we don't live in a theocracy.
More...
Posted by romeotrash on April 30, 2012 at 5:44 PM · Report this
278
I believe your comments at the conference were rude and inappropriate. It was bullying, pure and simple.
This is America, and you are free to remain free of Christ. However, He does love you and desire a relationship with all of you. I'm sorry you feel such anger and bitterness toward the Bible and Christians. I will pray for you.
Posted by mam_texas on April 30, 2012 at 5:46 PM · Report this
282
@276. That's a relief. How about extending the golden rule to gay kids? How about reminding parents that gay kids deserve to be treated with respect?
Back to Savage's point which so few seem to get, all that cussing isreally distracting but put it aside. In it's 2,000 years Christianty has changed its relationship toward the bible numerous times. Heck, look at Martin Luther and the Protestant Reformation. It is not beyond the realm of belief that Christianty can change its perspective regarding the treatment of gays.
As far as slavery is concerned, within the context of the debate within the US. Both sides used the bible as the basis of the moral strength. People sometimes use the words of the bible to do awful things, to pretend otherwise is to ignore a huge chunk of Western History. Get over it and work on making the present a better place.
Posted by CbytheSea on April 30, 2012 at 6:03 PM · Report this
283
You have a legitimate complaint (e.g., bullying and harassment is wrong) but there is a disconnect...it almost feels like you were acting like a bully (using harsh language and demeaning people) in trying to counteract bad behavior. I don't necessarily see this as productive. I almost feel like you turned off the very people who need to hear you, because those who love you and agree with you are already listening.

Maybe starting with respect for different opinions is a better angle. Do they deserve respect? Doesn't everyone--no matter how different or odd--deserve respect? Or does your model of inclusion exclude people who disagree?

Besides, respect for those who are different than you models good behavior. It's the heart of anti-bullying. Seeing the Other as human. Having empathy. Refusing to dismiss or demean. You have a really great point, but for me, it would be hard to accept your message when your own actions don't match up.

Do you get a pass because of all the anti-gay bullying, the past wrongs of Christians, the injustices? I didn't know that anyone gets a "I get to bully you" card because they have a "I was bullied by you" pass. Seems wrong.

Just something to think about. Bullying does need to stop.

(sorry for double-post, it posted this as unregistered the first time)
Posted by Maria G. on April 30, 2012 at 6:05 PM · Report this
284
Oh for fuck's sake. Yes, because I'm sure if everyone in the LGBT community reframed from using any so-called inappropriate language those fundies would just fall over themselves to give us our rights. You're falling into their trap if you think that way. They want us silent and submissive. Just look at the recent legislation to make it illegal to even say the word gay in some schools.
Posted by kv on April 30, 2012 at 6:08 PM · Report this
286
@278. I'm pretty sure God will ignore your false piety. You guys need to learn what love means. It's about listening to the other side, not just mumbling some terse condensation.
Posted by CbytheSea on April 30, 2012 at 6:12 PM · Report this
287
Totally support you Dan! Religion is so much bullshit...
They took a beautiful message from an enlightened, ahead of his time prophet and
did what we humans usually do.
Fucked it up and got it wrong.
Love the Christ, hate the Christians!
Posted by lluna001 on April 30, 2012 at 6:17 PM · Report this
289
To cybythesea

I agree with most of your sentiments. Everyone deserves respect and noone should endure ridicule and disrespect. With regards to the link between gay bullying and "the bible", Dan made several mistakes and several assumptions.

Let me point out an ovbious one. When a popular 18 year old jock shoves a gay 17 year old into the lockers and calls him a "flamer", is he bullying because of his interpretation of Romans 1 or is he bullying because the gay kid is "different"

The stupid Jock probably cannot find even find the book of Romans.

Dan made a fallacious arguement and he probably knows it.

I would defend any kid getting bullying for any reason. I also will defend against shameless assertions that Dan so willingly blathered. Assertions that had NOTHING to do with bullying gay kids.

Posted by Mr D on April 30, 2012 at 6:30 PM · Report this
290
@277
"Yes the Bible is a very difficult book to interpet because it was written many years ago in a completely diffrent culture."

Why? Why wasn't the omniscient, omnipotent God able to get His message across in terms that could be understood today?

"For one the Bible does not promote slavery."

Wait for it ........

"We must also understand that the slavery mentioned in the NT is much different from the form of slavery that we think of due to our unfortunate history of race relations."

So the Bible does not promote "slavery" ...
But the Bible's usage of "slavery" was not that which was practiced in the USofA ...

Now you reference 1 Timothy. But you aren't very specific, are you?

1 Timothy
1. Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;

2. Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

I'm guessing that you really don't know where the Bible condemns slavery because you couldn't reference it.

"Paul wrote to the masters of those slaves and appealed to them to treat their slaves well as in Christ both the slave and the master were equals."

Why did Paul skip the part about freeing the slaves and not keeping slaves any more?

"When I watch this video I see Dan Savage guilty of the very same thing that he is supposed to be speaking against."

Then you know nothing of the bullying that happens, do you?
Posted by fairly.unbalanced on April 30, 2012 at 6:34 PM · Report this
the idiot formerly known as kk 292
KiP @261 et al.: Just want to give you a shout out for your courage and wisdom. Dan is often inviting Christians to speak the truth, and you have far more patience than I in these matters. You are a breath of fresh air and a cool drink of water throughout these heated debates. God bless you!
Posted by the idiot formerly known as kk on April 30, 2012 at 6:36 PM · Report this
293
Funny that posters like comment 285 rail against Dan and then outright bully other commenters. Good job by not only proving yourself wrong but making an ass of yourself at the same time.
Posted by Vicarious24 on April 30, 2012 at 6:38 PM · Report this
294
@289. You're reading into it too literally. Where did that hypothetical jock get this anger towards the gay kid? Most likely from his church. There's really no basis for gay bashing in the secular world. Every homophobe I've ever met, based their hatred on something some one taught them from the bible. You're absolutely right, that kid probably never read it.
But until Christians stand up and ask their flock to stop treating gays as evil. Gay kids will be bullied and many "responsible" adults will turn a blund eye. Just look at the many comments in this thread.
As I mentioned, there are many ways to read the bible, people should acknowledge that fact instead of getting all huffy when this very truth is shown.
Posted by CbytheSea on April 30, 2012 at 6:39 PM · Report this
298
Hey Dan!

My name is Diana A. I'm one of John Shore's fans. I just wanted to tell you that this Christian (me) wasn't particularly offended by anything you said in that speech. I actually thought you were pretty mild. I also think the kids who left were showboating.

Just thought I'd share my thoughts!
Posted by DianaA1967 on April 30, 2012 at 7:16 PM · Report this
301
I didn't know who you were until today. I watched the 3 min 21 second video of you speaking to High School Students. It's clear to me you've hurt your own cause. After reading your quite limited "apology" I wonder how you expect others to be more respectful, compassionate and tolerant when you say what you've said. As best I can, I understand the seriousness of bullying and it's sad because I believe you've missed an opportunity. In the future please consider your audience, High School Kids were your audience on the video I watched. Best regards.
Posted by bmck61 on April 30, 2012 at 7:51 PM · Report this
303
@277 If we don't live in a theocracy, why do you think your religious convictions should have any baring on marriage law? Why should the US law, which is supposed to be secular, care what religion thinks?
Posted by TheLastComment on April 30, 2012 at 7:54 PM · Report this
304
Dan,
I'm wondering what your basis is for saying there are "untrue words or ideas" in the Bible? As a matter of fact there are no untrue words or ideas in the Bible. The Bible is truth, 100%, like it or not. Paul counseled Onesimus to return becuase of the laws of the day and not because God was pro slavery. The laws of the day have to be observed even more so if you're a Christian. I would ask you to consider something very truthfully and honestly, would you have said the same about the Koran in an all Muslim assembly?
Respectfully,
Tom
Posted by tomj on April 30, 2012 at 7:59 PM · Report this
Lissa 305
@294: CbytheSea reading your posts have been very good for me. Your even temper and thoughtful analysis is helping to keep my head from exploding. This topic makes me so angry. It is good for me to remember that there are people of faith, ( you, Kim in Portland, Venomlash etc) out there like y'all.
Thank you.

Posted by Lissa on April 30, 2012 at 8:04 PM · Report this
306
@304 There seems to be a widespread conservative perception that liberals are more critical of Christianity than they are of Islam. Some even think liberals are sympathetic to Islam. It's just not true. I know plenty of liberals who are anti-Israel and pro-Palestine. Many liberals are horrified at the barbaric lifestyle that conservative Islam subjects it's followers to.

I find your implied assumption that the assembly Dan Savage was speaking to was all Christian to be insulting. Most of the kids were laughing, loudly, at everything Dan said. Only a few walked out.
Posted by TheLastComment on April 30, 2012 at 8:08 PM · Report this
308
I'm a huge fan of Dan Savage! I'm also a Christian. I just wanted to thank you for the apology/clearing up the misunderstanding. I had alot of respect for you before, and even more now. So thank you again!
Posted by sarahfinicum on April 30, 2012 at 8:21 PM · Report this
309
I'm a huge fan of Dan Savage (and I'm only 17... and a half might I add) I'm also a Christian. I want to thank you for your apology/clearing up the misunderstanding. It really meant alot to me. :)
Posted by sarahfinicum on April 30, 2012 at 8:26 PM · Report this
gromm 312
To anyone who says that Dan is a bully:

If, by some chance, someone decided to take issue with Dan being gay and attack him with a baseball bat (because, you know, that has been known to happen to gay people on occasion), but Dan had dodged at just the right moment and broke his attacker's arm, what would you call him?

People have been attacking Dan and other gays with speech and political power for a hundred years. I hope I don't have to go into the lengthy history of epic atrocities committed against gays. And you call him a bully for using a *word* at a time when his attackers are starting to weaken?

*I* don't call that bullying. I call that self defence in a life-threatening situation.
Posted by gromm on April 30, 2012 at 8:53 PM · Report this
kim in portland 313
@ 304,

Dear Tom,

Firstly, this event was not a Christian assembly. Please see @ 149.

Secondly, and more importantly, please cite your evidence that proves that the Bible is 100% truth. Your citeble evidence must be reproducible and capable of being evaluated by both Christians and non-Christians. It must be vetted by peer review and published. Your personal religious convictions are not citeble evidence. Nor is using verses as evidence of citeble proof acceptable.

Tom, everything you claim to be truth is only applicable to you and your life. Your "truth" argument is based in your personal religious convictions. And, your convictions are very real and nourishing to you and I have no wish to take them from you. But you need to understand that no-one is morally obligated to come to the same conclusion about the Bible, because you say so. Many people, including Dan, have read it from cover to cover and don't reach the same conclusions. Most Biblical scholars acknowledge that amongst the 779 manuscripts of Paul's, the oldest known as Papyrus 46 (200 CE) not a single one is identical and they are full of interpolations. Most Biblical scholars acknowledge that there are twenty two (22) Gospels and the Bible only contains (4). I respectly suggest you invest in some religious literacy. Please allow me to express that I do not doubt that you have had intense religious experiences, that you genuinely have felt. I have no wish to deny the possibility of such experiences. I do not believe that any experience you have had gives you authority to proclaim that the Bible is 100% truth. I'm well aware that the vast majority of people believe what their parents believe. I am also well aware that the human brain has very intricate psychological defense mechanisms to allow us to retain beliefs, in spite of contravening facts. Unreasonable beliefs are tenacious and we humans will expend a great amount of emotional and intellectual energy to hold on to them. I'm also aware of the fascinating research being done on the medial temporal lobe and the neuronal correlates that intense experiences generate.

I wish you great joy and personal insight from your personal Biblical meditations. Apply them to yourself. Do not insist that your experience is "truth", unless you can prove it. And, allow other to find their own "truth". Accept that they don't find the Bible to be 100% truth, nor do they have to accept your word for it.

Kind regards.
More...
Posted by kim in portland http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/11/fast-paced_video_provides_a_fu.html on April 30, 2012 at 9:30 PM · Report this
315
@290...

The verse is 1 Timothy 1:10 which refers to slave traders. Sorry for not being specific.
Paul did not call for an end to the system. He couldn't. He wasnt in governing authority.But his very ideas of mutual respect and love for one another undermined the whole system. And indeed was revolutionary for that culture.

Why did God not make His book easy for us to understand in the 21st century? It was written for us but not to us. I certainly think if it would have been written to our culture in our time period there most certainly would have been some differeances in approach but the overall theme and message would be the same.

I already said how I feel about bullying. It's wrong. Does feeling a little persecution from Dan Savage compare to the treatment that some recieve due to their sexuality? Maybe not in all cases. But regardless it is still wrong.
Posted by romeotrash on April 30, 2012 at 9:42 PM · Report this
the idiot formerly known as kk 316
theist78@302: Your explanation is thoroughly, thoroughly unpersuasive. Jesus, in no uncertain terms, condemns remarriage as adultery. And adultery--unlike homosexuality or slavery--is one of the Big Ten Thou Shalt Nots.

And you know what? The prohibition on remarriage actually makes sense, kind of. OK, so the marriage didn't work out. Separate, divorce, whatever. But when a man remarries, he gets a new family and dumps his old family (see, e.g., John McCain). In many cases, the first wife winds up with a guy who has little attachment to her kids. Generalizing here, but you can see why remarriage could be thought of as a bad idea.

So since Jesus Christ, in his short three-year ministry, took the time to speak against remarriage (without ever mentioning homosexuality or slavery) you would think that Christians would absolutely, absolutely put this as a priority to prohibit.

But guess what?

This teaching is COMPLETELY ignored (except by certain conservative Catholics). There is no federal Constitutional amendment pending that would prevent remarriage. "Christians" unreservedly supported remarried (= adulterer) Ronald Reagan and John McCain for President.

And why do you suppose it is ignored? Because "Christians" want to have their cake and eat it too. They want to have famous football jock Pastor Ken Hutcherson officiate at their fourth marriage (that would be Rush Limbaugh) and still scream to high heaven about how homosexuality is a SIN that CANNOT be tolerated and will lead to the DOWNFALL of CIVILIZATION.

Well, bullshit. Dan was right to call bullshit on this.

When all you pearl-clutching idiots ban what Jesus himself condemned and the Ten Commandments prohibit, then let's talk about gay marriage.
More...
Posted by the idiot formerly known as kk on April 30, 2012 at 9:43 PM · Report this
317
@303 you said "If we don't live in a theocracy, why do you think your religious convictions should have any baring on marriage law? Why should the US law, which is supposed to be secular, care what religion thinks?"

I never said that my religous convictions should have any baring on marriage law. What I did say is that I don't personally agree with gay marriage but consenting adults should have the right to make their own choice who they want to be with. I whole heartedly believe in separation of church and state ( just not to ridiculous extremes) and I'm a libertarian on this issue ... Though personaly conservative.
Posted by romeotrash on April 30, 2012 at 9:51 PM · Report this
320
@315
"Paul did not call for an end to the system. He couldn't. He wasnt in governing authority."

And by "Paul" you must mean "Jesus" because that is what the point is.
JESUS could have called for all of his followers to free the slaves they owned and to never own slaves again.
But JESUS did not.

Yet there is a book about what JESUS did say and what he did do and he did not say to end slavery.

"But his very ideas of mutual respect and love for one another undermined the whole system."

And yet almost 2,000 years later there were still Christians owning slaves. What kind of "undermined" is that?
Just admit it. Jesus thought slavery was a pretty good idea.

I am not Jesus. I cannot perform miracles.
And yet I can say that anyone who believes as I do should NOT own slaves.
If you own slaves you should set them free TODAY and never own slaves again.

I can say that but JESUS could not.

What was JESUS afraid of?
Free speech and all. It's not like they'd crucify him for saying "free the slaves".
GET THE POINT?

"Does feeling a little persecution from Dan Savage compare to the treatment that some recieve due to their sexuality? Maybe not in all cases."

What was that?

"Maybe not in all cases."

How about not in ANY cases? Can you get THAT point?
Posted by fairly.unbalanced on April 30, 2012 at 10:33 PM · Report this
321
@Lissa, don't let them get to you. With their ugly words they're totally blowing their duties to God. Which is spreading the good word. When stupid things like this happen, I like to view the sites of the other side and see what kind of dialog they're doing. Sadly they bounce back goofy monologs.
That said, there were some commenters whom I think honestly shared their thoughts and I felt we had a pretty good banter. I wish these folks realized how much hatred drips out of their mouths. I can only assume their behavior has led to a spiteful lonely life where trolling on the Other's site is somehow fun.
I wish these victims would engage other commenters.
Posted by CbytheSea on April 30, 2012 at 10:41 PM · Report this
323
@317 When I hear someone say they disagree with gay marriage, I automatically assume they oppose legalization of it. I suppose there are not enough proponents of the 1st ammendment these days, if there were I wouldn't have this bias.
Posted by TheLastComment on April 30, 2012 at 10:53 PM · Report this
dwightmoodyforgetsthings 324
@278- Rude and inappropriate isn't bullying. Y'all really need to learn to use a dictionary.

@301- I would have been quite happy to have my eight year old daughter in the audience for that event. I've raised her as a critical thinker, she wouldn't let a couple curse words freak her out.

@304- "As a matter of fact there are no untrue words or ideas in the Bible. The Bible is truth, 100%, like it or not." People like you are going to cause the extinction of humanity some day. This statement is absurd. It doesn't have to do with "liking or not" it has to do with "thinking or not." You have chosen to shut down your rational mind in favor of the security granted by ignorance. It is impossible to have a reasonable discussion with someone (such as yourself) who has left reason behind.
Posted by dwightmoodyforgetsthings http://www.reddit.com/r/spaceclop on April 30, 2012 at 11:15 PM · Report this
dwightmoodyforgetsthings 326
@325- You're obviously new around here. Dan is responsible for The Stranger reprinting the Muhamed cartoons that got that guy killed in Europe.

Dan Savage is smarter than you, he's braver than you, he's kinder than you, and he's not a bully.
Posted by dwightmoodyforgetsthings http://www.reddit.com/r/spaceclop on April 30, 2012 at 11:35 PM · Report this
327
I can remember in history of west where homosexuality is an accepted norm. Well we are proud to be Africans where gay and lesbians law do not see the light of the day let alone being debated. Both the religious and the contemporary society resent the practice.

We I must say that over liberality has traumatized the West which induced them into a state abnormality caused my inbalance between nature and reality. In an attempt to normalize the state of this inbalance, she tries to interpolates between nature and abnoramlity to find a possible constant K. Where is a function of her state of mind. Since the limits of K tends to zero, she still resides in an inbalance state of mind.
Posted by laplax function on April 30, 2012 at 11:43 PM · Report this
329
I will say the overall presentation at that time probably would have been more effective if Dan had saved the phrase "bullshit in the Bible" until after he had made the case for it with all the examples. By leading with the profanity, a lot of people seized on the naughty words as a convenient excuse to plug their ears, stop listening, and stop thinking -- before he had a chance to demonstrate the validity of the accusation. Had he worked through the whole line of logic first, a few more of them might have sat through to the end, gotten the entire argument, and had to confront for themselves that those things were indeed bullshit. Also, the ones who walked out in the middle would be that much more properly seen as sticking their fingers in their ears and tantrumming "lalalalalaLALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!" since, absent the profanity, pretty much everything else was reasonably stated and stood up to logical scrutiny.
Posted by avast2006 on April 30, 2012 at 11:57 PM · Report this
330
@ 327 I can not remember .........
Posted by laplax function on May 1, 2012 at 12:03 AM · Report this
331
@325 so you hate the gays and the Muslims. How loving of you. First off you're getting your facts wrong. Do some research, don't just blindly parrot whatever website that brought you here.
Read the comments that came before you. You guys have been repeating yourselves and it's really annoying becuase people like me waste time trying to help you think or at best learn.
He didn't hold those kids against their will. They were free to go. He simply (though tactlessly) pointed out running away from ideas you disagree with isn't a very grown up thing to do. They should hopefully learn that life doesn't allow you to bury your head in the sand. Thus, he may be offering a harsh lesson but it is no more bullying than a child falling off a bike.
Here's the thing about the bible. It's a nifty book, but don't follow it verbatim. Nobody does, that's why we allow divorce. I think it's helpful for Chriatians to remember the ever changing narrative of their relationship towards the bible. If you're not Coptic, you've strayed. Which is fine. It seems pretty unbelievable that 90 odd percent of Christians are doing it wrong.
Lastly, why deal with Islam? It's a tiny minority in this country. And last time I checked, it was Christians in America passing anti-gay laws. If Islam gets to be a force in the politics in America, then perhaps your question will have meaning. Until then you're just avoiding an uncomfortable truth.
Posted by CbytheSea on May 1, 2012 at 12:08 AM · Report this
332
I can not remember in history of west where homosexuality is an accepted norm. Well we are proud to be Africans where gay and lesbian's law do not see the light of the day let alone being debated. Both the religious and the contemporary society resent the practice.

Well I must say that over liberality has traumatized the West which induced them into a state abnormality caused my inbalance between nature and reality. In an attempt to normalize the state of this inbalance, she tries to interpolates between nature and abnoramlity to find a possible constant K. Which is a function of her state of mind. Since the limits of K tends to zero, she still resides in an inbalance state of mind.
Posted by laplax function on May 1, 2012 at 12:09 AM · Report this
333
I'll move the Overton Window in Dan's favor:

Christianity isn't just bullshit; like all religion, it's a dangerous mental illness and a form of child abuse (and that's in addition to the rampant institutionalized child rape practiced by NAMBLA, or as they're known outside of this continent, the Catholic Church). There *is* no polite way to tell someone afflicted with religion that they are insane and a menace to children and rational thinkers everywhere. That doesn't make it any less true.

If you don't believe me, just try to make sense of some of the mindrot that's been posted here.
Posted by Chase on May 1, 2012 at 12:10 AM · Report this
334
@328 so bullying now means pointing out facts? Seriously? That's some thin skin you're sporting there.
Posted by CbytheSea on May 1, 2012 at 12:14 AM · Report this
335
@332. Please stop. Your gibberish is worse than most of the garbage on this thread.
Posted by CbytheSea on May 1, 2012 at 12:17 AM · Report this
337
@336. Like I said, read the comments. If you had you would find that I am a Quaker. Are you fimilar with the Friends? We follow the bible but believe God's gift to humanity was are ability to learn and show empathy.
Why would you tell me to get a life? Use words like perversion within a context of writing me off as a loser rather than a person willing to have a dialog with you?
Then after that you offer to pray for me? That doesn't eliminate the ill will shown in your comment.
Coming from the background of the Protestant movement. I think Christianty is strong enough to look at itself and ponder. And through that be able to learn, to adapt and give yourself to God's love.
I would offer to pray for you but that is a deeply personal matter not something one foists on another. Out of respect of one's diginty.
Posted by CbytheSea on May 1, 2012 at 12:31 AM · Report this
338
@336. Furthermore I will continue to hate bash. I despise hate and wish to see it bashed away.
Posted by CbytheSea on May 1, 2012 at 12:32 AM · Report this
340
@339. What about the part of stoning women? Eating shrimp?
Posted by CbytheSea on May 1, 2012 at 12:49 AM · Report this
341
Maranatha,

I've been reading the comments over at fox news and here trying my best to understand just what it is that is supposed to be so offensive, and it amazes me that absolutely no one is willing to state any kind of agreement or disagreement with what Dan actually said -- that the Bible's teachings on slavery are bullshit. Marantha, could you be the very first of all the people who are oh-so-offended by Dan's remarks to clarify, do you agree or disagree with Dan about the Bible's teachings on slavery being bullshit? You can substitute a more polite word for bullshit if it helps.

Dan has objected to "hypocrisy" in this post, but I don't think that's what's going on. What we're witnessing here is denial. It really shouldn't be shocking to learn that the Bible reflects the prevailing values of its time, values that were common throughout the world before its first book was written and for well over 1000 years after its last was written. Yet people expect something different of the Bible. You'd think more people would recognize the Bible as an imperfect creation of man, but in times like this you have to pick a side; you're either with the Bible or you're against it. The Bible is not a good book, it is a perfect one. So if it contains a few passages that any decent person alive today recognizes as morally abhorrent, it must be whitewashed, the fact must never be mentioned so that the rest of it can be used and treated as perfect.

Marantha, I believe what offended you and everyone else was Dan's remarks that the Bible was a pro-slavery document, not his remarks that such sentiments were bullshit. If only those who weren't offended by Dan are able to admit whether they agree or disagree with the supposedly offensive remarks, surely you can understand why I and everyone else here can't take your offense all that seriously; indeed, cannot take your view of yourself as the person standing up for morality seriously at all.
More...
Posted by Eric L on May 1, 2012 at 1:02 AM · Report this
342
vjhgjkhgjh
Posted by monkeychest on May 1, 2012 at 1:26 AM · Report this
343
I am amazed at the assumptions (with out any theological or historical inquiry) as to CONTEXT regarding Biblical passages. Dan, you have revealed this failure in what you have spoken regarding the Old Testament passages. Those of you you who call the Bible "BS", have not taken the time to study the CONTEXT, it's related history, and it's culture (whether it be slavery, sexual son..etc); and instead demonstrate your OWN ignorance via your resort to name calling. The latter demonstrates that you are either so brain washed by those who walk in your own like minded ignorance of the Bible, OR, you simply do not care to engage in an honest intellectual discussion about WHY and in what CONTEXT Scripture was written. I also must share my disappointment with a few fellow Christians on here who are not very knowledgable of their own faith. Please study yourself approved.
Posted by Trooper63 on May 1, 2012 at 1:57 AM · Report this
344
(typo..sin..not "son")
Posted by Trooper63 on May 1, 2012 at 2:17 AM · Report this
345
"I didn't call anyone's religion bullshit. I did say that there is bullshit—"untrue words or ideas"—in the Bible."

Isn't that also a distinction without a difference? Christianity is based on the Bible, and if it's bullshit, well, so is the religion itself. Or is that kind of like when Christians say homosexual inclinations are wrong, but are quick to point out that there is a distinction between an inclination (which is merely part of a person), and the person itself?

Posted by John Doe on May 1, 2012 at 4:15 AM · Report this
346
"Questioning the bible is not bullying Christians."

@CbytheSea

I didn't know Dan actually posed a question...

But anyway, I'm sure you can see that calling someone else's heartfelt beliefs "bullshit" isn't conducive to constructive dialogue. It was a tirade, simple as that. Regardless of whether or not you agree with what he said, he didn't go about it the right way - and I'm glad that he at least seems to recognize that.

Posted by John Doe on May 1, 2012 at 4:34 AM · Report this
347
The walk-out is a tactic they use all the time. The high school students are apparently used as pawns by the group leaders. Same thing happened to Mike Daisy, and he had much the same reaction. I liked the way he handled it, by the way:
http://youtu.be/-IeMtQ-SZtA
Posted by GasparFagel on May 1, 2012 at 5:09 AM · Report this
348
cbythe sea,

It would not be difficult to find a secularist teenager who bullies a gay for reasons unrelated to his theology or the theology his parents "taught him."

For KK,

I do agree with you..... christians tend to cherry pick "bad sins", and ignore the rest. You make a valid point. I am a Christian and it is not hard to see that in my own life. I would also say it is important to understand what the word "slave" means in various passages. I say that because Dan and (others on this thread) are failing to understand what that word meant. IE "bond slave" ect.

I also would say that we are reaching if we interpret silence on the issue of slavery as a signal of approval for slavery. Principles that are taught which are contrary to "slavery", would bear that out.

To all,

I can see some on this thread itching for a a theist verses atheist debate. There have been a few red herrings floated out. I find those rather entertaining.

It seems that some are quite pleased with their grasp on 'reason' and rational thinking. You also have presuppositions chained to your ankles which is rather unreasonable itself.

Peace

Mr. D

Posted by Mr D on May 1, 2012 at 5:18 AM · Report this
351
@346 this is the last time I'm going to go over this. He didn't say it was all bs (watch the video again). He simply pointed the changing nature of sin within Christianity's history. Think about it, divorce was highly frowned upon until the 1960s. There's nothing wrong with it, it's important for Christianity to do so, otherwise it loses touch with society as a whole.
That said, I'm hopeful people will get over the whole gay thing. The world doesn't need more shunned people. It needs a lot more understanding, love and compassion.
@Mr. D. A crime is still a crime even if your brother commited it. That's a silly point, but you've been really good with this whole back and forth thing. As you stated earlier, people need to be better to each other. That starts by revoking free passes on demonizing people.
Posted by CbytheSea on May 1, 2012 at 6:55 AM · Report this
352
@350 have you read this thread at all? There's been a lot of dialog. Unlike what I've seen on Fox News, FreeRepublic, etc.
Posted by CbytheSea on May 1, 2012 at 6:59 AM · Report this
357
@320...

Once again there was a difference in the type of slavery in NT times then what happened in the Civil War times in the Southern USA. There's not really a comparison. And yes Christian's twisted the scriptures out of it's cultural context and intent to justify slavery. They were wrong. Just as Dan Savage claims that the Bible is pro-slavery. A slave in NT times came into a contract with his master voluntarily in order to pay off a debt and was obligated to fulfill that contract until the debt was paid off and then set free. Granted there were harsh masters and then there were also slaves unwilling ing to meet their contractual obligations. Under Roman law a runaway slave could be caught and punished with death. I don't think Paul or Jesus advocated this system but worked within it. Read Philemon (easy reading only one chapter) which deals with a runaway slave. Paul instructs the slave to go back and fulfill his obligation while at the same time pleading the case with Philemon ( the master) to recieve him back with love and not to accept him as merely a slave but as a brother.
There is no comparison between what happened in the South to what was happening then. When Christianity finally conquered Rome slavery was put away.
Posted by romeotrash on May 1, 2012 at 7:34 AM · Report this
358
cbythesea,

I agree a crime is still a crime no matter the circumstances. My point regarding the teenager and theology was to point out that intolerance does not necessarily finds its roots in scripture. A secularist can be untolerant of a kid who dresses in a feminine way and who avoids sports.

Many use the bible to justify a caustic attack however I take the position that the scripture makes no room for "bullying" or mistreating another person.

I maintain that intolerance and voilence toward a gay kid can come at the hands of an individual who has never been taught a single thing from the bible. It is of course wrong regardless of the motive.

In the end the point we can all agree on is disrespect, ridicule, bullying has no place in our society. There is no need to call people "queer", or to slander with other titles. I also equally believe that it is inappropriate to do what Dan did. It is a self defeating arguement he presented.
Posted by Mr D on May 1, 2012 at 9:03 AM · Report this
Lissa 360
You know what I find most interesting about this infestation of sanctimonious head lice we here at Slog are currently enduring? Besides the ever reliable passive agressive Fundie use of "I'll pray for you" as a stand in for "Fuck you"? I mean really. You're not fooling anybody with that one.

This whole latching onto the "bully" thing.
Gay kids are harassed and kill themselves, because of who they are. That's bullying. What all y'all are doing is coming up in here and saying "Nuh uh! YOU''RE the bully Dan Savage! We're rubber and you're GLUE", because you don't want to own your own part in that problem.

You argue like second graders.

I was raised in the Church and Dan was raised in the Church ( as a matter of fact he was on his way to the priesthood at one time) and we know our scripture, so you want scripture? I'll give you scripture:
Matthew 7:3.
Now get the fuck off my lawn.
Posted by Lissa on May 1, 2012 at 9:34 AM · Report this
361
I like Dan's comparison of his "bullshit" to Twain's "upwards of a thousand lies." It reminds me of the movie, Speed, where Dennis Hopper's character chastizes I forget which of the cops, by saying that in 200 years we have come from "I regret that I have but one life to give for this country" to "fuck you."

Anyway, is "bullshit" supposed to be unexpected from Dan Savage? As a frequent listener to Dan's Savage Lovecast, "bullshit" sounds pretty tame to my decidedly non-virginal ears. As the bullshit book says, "What went ye out into the wilderness to see? . . . A man clothed in soft raiment?" Look it up, padre.
Posted by Tom_Rakewell on May 1, 2012 at 9:38 AM · Report this
362
@hechomodern and the prohibition against eating shellfish.

I think it was Shalom Auslander who wrote something like, "I didn't need God to tell me that I shouldn't eat a giant insect."
Posted by Tom_Rakewell on May 1, 2012 at 9:42 AM · Report this
363
@357
"A slave in NT times came into a contract with his master voluntarily in order to pay off a debt and was obligated to fulfill that contract until the debt was paid off and then set free."

What was that Dan said? Bullshit.
You are the one who does not understand slavery 2,000 years ago.
Educate yourself and you will see that Dan was correct.
Posted by fairly.unbalanced on May 1, 2012 at 9:48 AM · Report this
Lissa 364
@362: Hard to argue with that.
Posted by Lissa on May 1, 2012 at 9:58 AM · Report this
365
The truth is, the Bible *does not say* that being gay is wrong--not in the sense that we see "being gay" in our world today. The prohibitions in the Bible against "sodomy" or "laying with a man as with a woman" have to do with practices performed in other Mesopotamian religions, which practiced a form of ritual "prostitution" that included male-male sex as well as male-female sex. Additionally, what many readers of the Bible don't know or understand is that the books of the bible containing these prohibitions were specifically written during, or right after, the Babylonian Exile. The Biblical Jews were fighting to maintain their cultural and ethnic identity through a forced exile to a foreign land...the laws in Deutoronomy were a part of their effort to maintain that identity, to set themselves apart from their oppressors and resist assimilation. So for the Bible to say "don't do this EVER", it was really saying "If you want to remain a Jew, don't do what our oppressors do, EVER".

The bottom line is, the prohibitions in the Bible had nothing at all to do with the kinds of loving, committed relationships between gay and lesbian people that are the subject of debate in today's political arena.
Posted by wisemoon on May 1, 2012 at 10:01 AM · Report this
the idiot formerly known as kk 367
The bottom line I'm hearing from the Bible-defenders here is that the Bible doesn't promote chattel slavery, it just promotes indentured servitude, so that's ok, see? You're only a slave until your debt is paid off--which might take only 50 years! So that's ok.

And Dan calling that "bullshit" is bullying and bashing.

I have to say, you all make pretty pathetic apologists for Christianity.
Posted by the idiot formerly known as kk on May 1, 2012 at 10:14 AM · Report this
Lissa 369
@366: What you're doing right there TJW? That's called "projection".
Get off my lawn.
Posted by Lissa on May 1, 2012 at 10:19 AM · Report this
370
@363: I don't know, Pseudolus had it pretty good. ;)
Posted by Tom_Rakewell on May 1, 2012 at 10:20 AM · Report this
371
@356: You're Jewish. Dan was talking about Christians. That's not ethnocentric intolerance, he simply wasn't talking about you in the moment. Get a grip.

BTW, the biblical prohibition against shellfish is still bullshit. The damned things are perfectly edible. Keep kosher for your own cultural reasons, or don't eat shrimp because trawling destroys the sea floor, or be vegetarian because you can't stand hurting animals, or whatever the hell reason you feel like. But if you say to me "Thou shalt not eat shellfish because God commands it," I will laugh at you.
Posted by avast2006 on May 1, 2012 at 10:22 AM · Report this
Lissa 372
@368: your cowardice is matched only by your illiteracy. Anonymous Internet death threats. Sweet. WWJD indeed.
Posted by Lissa on May 1, 2012 at 10:23 AM · Report this
Bonefish 373
Everyone talking about the importance of "context" and "interpretation" is missing the point. I've spelled this out already. You have two choices:

1) Context is important. The Old Testament is a product of harsher times, and its wording is often vague and up for interpretation. It was also updated by the New Testament, which is the main book of Christianity. Therefore, we don't need to follow what it says about shrimp or slavery, and it's unfair to use literal interpretations of the Old Testament to criticize Christianity.

2) The Old Testament needs to be interpreted strictly and literally, and all its rules need to be followed. Therefore, bullying gays is justified according to my literal interpretation of the Old Testament.

You have to choose one or the other, since these two choices indicate completely opposite approaches to the Old Testament. If you want to argue that the OT is a product of historical circumstances and that it's open to interpretation, then its anti-gay teachings need to be put to the same cavalier treatment as its anti-shrimp teachings. Believing that the only important rules in Leviticus just happen to be the ones that you're not tempted to break is convenient, yes, but it's also hypocritical and cowardly, and I suspect that Jesus would have expected more of his supposed followers. Or did you just join up because it was popular?

This is why it doesn't matter how you rationalize it by accounting for historical context (when convenient); the hypocrisy of homophobic Christians still stands, because they continue to ignore some parts of the Old Testament while using other parts of it to justify anti-gay bigotry. If you can ignore "some things," then you can ignore homosexuality. If not, then it's time to give up shrimp and stop expecting a paycheck from your boss.

There is absolutly no context or alternative interpretation that justifies this cherry-picking or makes it logically consistent. You can only justify option 1 or option 2, but never both at the same time, no matter what you do, and attempting to do so is hypocrisy itself.

A lot of Christians use a literal-when-convenient interpretation of the Old Testament a justification for gay bashing. This is why Dan feels that the Old Testament, and such an inconsistent interpretation of it, is relevant. If that bothers you, get pissed at those Christians. After all, they're the ones bringing it up.
More...
Posted by Bonefish on May 1, 2012 at 10:29 AM · Report this
374
@362: More for me. :)

(Or as the dragon said to the other dragon about knights: "Kind of like lobster, a lot of work, but good eating once you get the shells off.")

Posted by avast2006 on May 1, 2012 at 10:29 AM · Report this
376
@371
"But if you say to me 'Thou shalt not eat shellfish because God commands it,' I will laugh at you."

I always looked at it as part of the low-level religious discipline.
If you do not have the self-discipline to turn down a bacon cheeseburger then you probably don't have the self-discipline to follow any of the more restrictive requirements such as not lying.
Posted by fairly.unbalanced on May 1, 2012 at 10:37 AM · Report this
380
@376: "If you do not have the self-discipline to turn down a bacon cheeseburger then you probably don't have the self-discipline to follow any of the more restrictive requirements such as not lying."

Complete bullshit. There is no good reason to turn down the cheeseburger -- other than "I am thy High Priest, OBEY ME!" -- whereas there are plenty of patently obvious reasons why lying, stealing, murder, et cetera, are bad. If you can't figure out on your own why those are a problem, and need a God to explicitly tell you "Don't do that, or else I will spank you eternally in the afterlife" then the one with the deficient moral compass isn't me.
Posted by avast2006 on May 1, 2012 at 11:09 AM · Report this
381
Even if you don't agree with the bibles view on homosexuality, scientifically you'd be gone as well since you can't reproduce without the opposite sexs' help. So Darwinism would have wiped you out as well.

And while you are at it you can stop celebrating Christmas as well, (Birth of Christ), and Good Friday (The day he was nailed to the cross) andEaster (The day Jesus ascended to Heaven). The fact that the country has commercialized these holidays IE I don't have any idea why the easter bunny has eggs or would even hide them, or where the Christmas Tree even started. Ironically a church in Europe actually was against the Christmas Tree since it had nothing to do with the holiday. Just pointing out that it is not only the Bible that is being hypocritical.

Also nowhere in the constitution does it say Seperation of Church and State. It only states that no law shall be made supporting nor prohibiting religion. (1st Ammendment). And if you do think you need to remove those holidays from the calendar, since Christmas and Good Friday are federally recognized holidays you would likely lose the popular support of kids and you can explain to them why you do what you do.

No I am not a religious activist, just took the opposing point of view and supported it with facts. Also, I did not call you any names nor "Bullied" you. At least you where man enough to apoligize, somewhat.
Posted by tclopton on May 1, 2012 at 11:15 AM · Report this
383
Dan- YOU are a BULLY.
How sad.
You routinely come across as angry and arrogant.

You used extremely poor judgement in thinking that it was appropriate to speak to aspiring, award winning, high school journalists in this fashion.
They are minors, people's children...
My kids are too young now but, I can't even begin to tell you how upset I would have been and what I might have done if my child was in that audience.

Further- You chose to do this in a forum that was not a debate of issues.

Dan, you've done something great with respect to bullying in the gay community but, you need to take a long, hard look in the mirror, tone-it-down and clean-up your act because you are at the precipice of no longer having any credibility.
Posted by dontbahater on May 1, 2012 at 11:21 AM · Report this
385
Dan, congrats: The Economist has your back (mostly).

http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracy…
Posted by SatanicMechanic on May 1, 2012 at 11:24 AM · Report this
386
I appreciate that you apologized for the "pansy ass" remark and I absolutely agree with your statements about the bullshit in the Bible. That needed to be said.

My wife and I walked out but not because of what you said. We were presenters and had to be at another part of the conference, which unfortunately meant we couldn't stay to hear the rest of your speech. It was coincidental that we left at that precise time and I wonder if some of the others who walked out left for the same reason.
Posted by Alec Clayton on May 1, 2012 at 11:26 AM · Report this
387
Dan, you had nothing to apologize for.

I can only hope that one day some of those students will look back at their "protest" and be embarrassed to the core.

And @376: Really? Couldn't it just be that some of us don't see anything morally wrong with a bacon cheeseburger?
Posted by Kristen on May 1, 2012 at 11:38 AM · Report this
388
@381: Ah, the old "homosexuality is self-extinctifying" argument. Dude, do you even know where homosexuals come from?
Posted by avast2006 on May 1, 2012 at 11:40 AM · Report this
389
Bonefish,

I have I choose to ignore various parts of Leviticus as irrelevant but seize on the part regarding homosexuality than of course I am cherry picking. The blood sprinkled over the Mercy seat is also an irrelavent act today. Christianity holds that animal sacrifices are no longer needed because Christ has once suffered for sins. That might be B.S. to many but I wanted to give my 2 cents on the point regarding cherry picking.

So set aside the old testament with regards to the rules and homesexuality. You than have Romans 1, which Dan directly referenced.

"And likewise also the men leaving the woman burned in their lust one for another; Men with men working that which is unseemly....

I reference this .....in response to your point,

"A lot of Christians use a literal-when-convenient interpretation of the Old Testament a justification for gay bashing"

The old testament is not needed to d that. There is plenty of references in the new Testament as well.

If I wanted their is plenty of verses in the New testament that address fornication (pornei) and Homo-sexuality.

One can than argue that half the New testament is BS and all the Old testament is BS. Than who is cherry picking? When someone says the entire thing is BS..... It actually becomes a more consistent arguement.

I am a christian and as you well stated context is important and cherry picking is wrong.
Posted by Mr D on May 1, 2012 at 11:43 AM · Report this
390
Actually we don't have to ignore the Bible on anything because Mr. Savage who is clearly NOT an authority on the Bible doesn't know what he is talking about. He has excerpted certain sections which he feels supports his point of view and actually he is just showing his ignorance about the Bible. Christians are not ignoring sections of the bible on slavery , etc. because that is not what is says. In addition sections such as the woman being stoned if not found to be a virgin on her wedding night (Deut 22) he takes completely out of context. Because the Jewish nation at this point in history was the human ship by which God was eventually bringing Jesus into the world, it was critical that the Hebrew nation at this point be kept as pure as possible, Therefore laws during this phase of biblical history were quite severe - for both men and women. As it says, "So shall you keep evil from among you." While the Bible is consistent that premarital ( and gay sex ) is wrong, when Jesus came there was a NEW COVENANT which Mr. Savage does not understand so the Bible does NOT say we should be stoning people for these sins. If he did really understood the message of Christ and how he can be forgiven for everything he has ever done and have eternal life, he himself would fall at the feet of Jesus and know that he is loved and forgiven for all eternity in exchange for his repentance and acceptance of Christ. Pretty easy. As an example of the new covenant , when Jesus met the woman at the well who, under old testament law was one that would have been stoned, instead, Jesus loved her ( and yes hated the sin) but told her , "you are forgiven, go and sin no more". He did not condemn her. Mr. Savage has a long way to go if he is try to teach things about the Bible or use them to try to prove his points. He needs to stop that because to people who really know the Bible it is making him look pretty uninformed and in fact it shows he is primarily agenda driven and willing to distort things with little information to try to make his points. I would recommend he go to www.Robgagnon.net in order to get a better understanding of the Bible , it's contexts , and messages concerning it's consistent message on homosexuality. We should all pray for Mr. Savage. He is a bright and talented young man, and hopefully like Paul, who was actually killing Christians, we pray that he will have a road to Damascus experience and use his talent and skills for Christ, instead of asking as Paul did,"Lord, why do you persecute me".
More...
Posted by GB on May 1, 2012 at 11:45 AM · Report this
391
I meant to say "if I choose to ignore only different parts of leviticus but seize on others that I am cherry picking"
Posted by Mr D on May 1, 2012 at 11:50 AM · Report this
392
@387
"And @376: Really? Couldn't it just be that some of us don't see anything morally wrong with a bacon cheeseburger?"

Then that would mean that you do not subscribe to one of the religions that says not to eat bacon.
So it does not matter.

If your religion says not to eat bacon then not eating bacon is easy training for your self-discipline so that you can follow the other, more arduous, restrictions.

If you pick and choose which rules you follow, wasn't that Dan's point about people choosing some parts of the Bible that they like but skipping over the parts of the Bible that they don't want to follow or that make the Bible look bad?
Posted by fairly.unbalanced on May 1, 2012 at 11:51 AM · Report this
Fortunate 393
From the article SatanicMechanic posted:

"Bullying is the strong picking on the weak, not the other way around (the other way around is satire)."

About sums up the histrionic accusations of Dan being a 'Basher'.
Posted by Fortunate on May 1, 2012 at 11:54 AM · Report this
394
@392: No....your argument was that if I couldn't be disciplined enough to stay away from the cheeseburgers because God tells me to, then I couldn't be disciplined enough to stay away from lying because God also tells me so. That's a false equivalency. If anything staying away from lying is easier than staying away from cheeseburgers because there is an actual good reason not to lie, whereas the reason to not eat burgers is sheer arbitraryness, and thus easy to discount.

And yes, that does speak to Dan's argument that people pick and choose all the time what parts of the Bible they are going to follow, er, "religiously," and which parts they are going to blow off as arrant nonsense, like the whole cloth-of-two-fibers thing. Or are you going to claim that a Christian who wears cotton/poly T-shirts lacks the discipline to not lie, cheat, and steal?
Posted by avast2006 on May 1, 2012 at 12:04 PM · Report this
Fortunate 395
@ Mr D.:"The old testament is not needed to d that. There is plenty of references in the new Testament as well. "

Actually there are three. And in all three the terms used are open to debate as to what they really mean. Some scholars claim they don't refer to homosexuality but to pederasty. People interpret them to mean what ever is convenient to their own position.

That said, you only strengthen the accusation of hypocrisy.

The New Testament contains lots of things that people ignore. The new testament says that men shouldn't have long hair. Women shouldn't wear gold or pearls. The new testament clearly and strongly prohibits divorce.

People still ignore the things they do that the new testament prohibits and focus on the things other people do that they don't like, and they still interpret things in ways that support their preconceived ideas.
Posted by Fortunate on May 1, 2012 at 12:07 PM · Report this
396
@394
"No....your argument was that ..."

No. That may be what you think you understood but that was not what I said.

"If anything staying away from lying is easier than staying away from cheeseburgers because there is an actual good reason not to lie, whereas the reason to not eat burgers is sheer arbitraryness, and thus easy to discount."

You're making my point for me.
You've replaced your personal judgment for what your religion proscribes.
Which is what Dan described.
You personally choose X as "bad" and Y as "arbitrary" despite your religion teaching that X & Y should not be done.

"Or are you going to claim that a Christian who wears cotton/poly T-shirts lacks the discipline to not lie, cheat, and steal?"
Leviticus, right?
Or are you referencing Deuteronomy?

Again, was that not Dan's point?
Christians claim that Jesus fulfilled whatever so the old Testament does not apply any more.
Except the parts that they want to still apply.
Because most Christians do not understand their religion and just repeat the talking points that they've been taught.
Posted by fairly.unbalanced on May 1, 2012 at 12:25 PM · Report this
397
As to my earlier comment to Good Friday, Jesus died on the cross that day, ascended to heavon on Easter. But still I'm sure that many of you "non-believers" still enjoy that day off.
Posted by tclopton on May 1, 2012 at 12:32 PM · Report this
Fortunate 398
I don't know anyone who gets good Friday off. I certainly don't.
Posted by Fortunate on May 1, 2012 at 12:45 PM · Report this
399
397, what are you talking about? I don't have Good Friday off. Also, please learn to spell. The blatant errors distract from your argument, whatever that may be.
Posted by clashfan on May 1, 2012 at 12:47 PM · Report this
400
Fortunate,

Cherry picking occurs in the Old Testament and as well as the new. Thats was my point.

You said,

"That said, you only strengthen the accusation of hypocrisy."

Thats exactly what I intended to do. I am against cherry picking. It is however important to note that despite Hypocritical cherry picking. If someone chooses to follow one set of teaching a) and ingnore te other B)..... it does not follow that either A) or B) is false teaching. It just means there is a cherry picker.

I am aware of the doctrine of headship taught in 1 Cor chpt 11, and there are many that reject that teaching as "culturally irrelevant", but than rail against home-sexuality. Thats is inconsistent. It is does not mean however that one set of teaching is false and the other right. It just means people are being rather subjective and rather selfish as to what suits their fancy.

I appreciate your civil tone.

Cheers,

Mr D

Posted by Mr D on May 1, 2012 at 12:47 PM · Report this
402
Go figure my earlier point doesn't show up. So here it is again.

The fact that Dan was there for anti-bullying and goes and uses those particular words proves a majority of my point. I have never seen or heard any religion berate atheists in the way I have seen some atheists or gays go on towards religion.

Here are facts. First, even science (darwinism) may have eliminated gays since they can't reproduce without help from the opposite sex. So one may have to believe that that lifestyle is supported by religion or science.

Secondly many atheists or "non-believers" do celebrate Christmas, and enjoy the days off, as well as Good Friday and Easter. So you are celebrating religious holidays. Christmas (Birth of Christ), Good Friday (Jesus died on Cross) Easter (Jesus ascends to Heaven). The fact that these Holidays have been commercialized does not change what they represent. I don't know who came up with the Easter bunny with eggs thing. There was even a church in Europe that did not want the Christmas Tree since it really had nothing to do with the original meaning of Christmas.

For those of you who call for the seperation of church and state, know that the Constitution does not say that. Ammendment one states that government shall not make any laws supporting nor prohibiting religion. So when you see the Nativity scene just remember that it is only depicting what Christmas is supposed to be about.

If you don't like it, don't celebrate the holiday, and tell government that they have to take it off the federal holiday list because it supports religion. But I wager you would anger many kids who like there day's off, and some workers.

Just so you know I consider myself nuetral. I think both sides need to be tolerant. We all know there are gay ordained ministers now. So which side is being more tolerant. And for those of you who celebrated religious holidays but chose not to believe in God, who is really the hypocrite?

At least Dan did apologize, albeit weakly.
More...
Posted by tclopton on May 1, 2012 at 12:53 PM · Report this
403
Fortunate,

You said "That said, you only strengthen the accusation of hypocrisy."

That was what I intended to do.

I am aware of the doctrine of headship in 1 Cor 11, and while many mega-church evangelicals reject that teaching with the excuse of "different times", they also will speak against home-sexuality. I take the position however that if I reject one set of teaching A) and embrace another set of teaching B) it does not follow that one set is false. It just means we have a cherry picker on our hands. It means we are being selective, and it means that if one set of teaching is accepted ... so should the other.

Even though there are "only 3 examples" of teaching against homosexuality they still exist separate from the old Testament. I am aware of some textual criticism with regards to these verses.

I appreciate your civil tone.

Peace,

Mr D

Posted by Mr D on May 1, 2012 at 1:01 PM · Report this
404
Fortunate,

You said "That said, you only strengthen the accusation of hypocrisy."

That was what I intended to do.

I am aware of the doctrine of headship in 1 Cor 11, and while many mega-church evangelicals reject that teaching with the excuse of "different times", they also will speak against home-sexuality. I take the position however that if I reject one set of teaching A) and embrace another set of teaching B) it does not follow that one set is false. It just means we have a cherry picker on our hands. It means we are being selective, and it means that if one set of teaching is accepted ... so should the other.

Even though there are "only 3 examples" of teaching against homosexuality they still exist separate from the old Testament. I am aware of some textual criticism with regards to these verses.

I appreciate your civil tone.

Peace,

Mr D
Posted by Mr D on May 1, 2012 at 1:03 PM · Report this
405
Yeah I typed to fast. My point is many people celebrate Good Friday, Easter and Christmas. All of which are religious holidays. I won't make the long arguement again as I've tried twice and it never shows up. Good Friday is a national holiday as is Christmas. Many Atheists complain about the Nativity scene on Christmas, but it simply depicts what the Holiday represents. The Birth of Christ.

If your job does not give you off on Good Friday that is on them, not many jobs do anymore. My point being it is hypocritical for people to celebrate religious holidays and yet choose not to believe. The fact that two of these holidays are commercialized does not change why they where made holidays. Jesus was born on Christmas. He was sacrificed on the cross, Good Friday. Ascended to Heaven, Easter.

Long arguement made short. Maybe this one will show up.
Posted by tclopton on May 1, 2012 at 1:04 PM · Report this
407
Earlier comment is 381. As for my spelling errors that is called typing to fast. Not really a blatant error, just a typo.

If you don't have Good Friday off that is on your job. Just yet another example of the "not war" on religion.
Posted by tclopton on May 1, 2012 at 1:10 PM · Report this
408
My only issue was the fact that these were high school KIDS, so the use of Shit and Ass may be an issue. I generally believe when dealing with minors that are not your own it is best to say what needs to be said without "swear" words. I'll admit I generally can make sailors blush with my language, but I do try not to "swear" around other people's kids. Had this been a college group they would all be over 18. I believe an high school student should and could easily survive hearing "swear" words and it not shake their world view. Their actions were just as uncalled for, and honestly are much ruder to you than your use of "swear" words was to them. They will always feel the victim if they and their religion are not coddled. I really don't think you need to apologize unless the rude children who disrupted the event by leaving did first, but good for being the adult in the situation.
Posted by GlassRB on May 1, 2012 at 2:01 PM · Report this
409
tclopton: All the days you mentioned are stolen Pagan holidays. Easter is ripped off from Ostara which was a fertility celebration that has it's symbols of rabbits (because they breed well and quickly), eggs (a universal symbol of fertility), and things that will help you get laid (sweets and chocolate now a days). Some time you will also find elements of Beltane (another Pagan fertility festival) mixed into the Christian Easter if they do the May Pole dance. Christmas is also ripped off from the Pagans. It's called Yule and was celebrated on the Winter Solstice (around December 20-25 depending on the year). It's was celebrating the birth of the SUN, when the days started to get longer. The slow return on life was celebrated by bringing in evergreens (the tree), lights, feasting, and celebrating. The colors of life The green of the living earth and the red of the life blood became signature colors. About the only thing that didn't come from us is the name Christmas and the nativity...well except there was a god called Mithra who was born on December 25 of "virgin" birth. So yeah, even that wasn't yours originally. Ever wonder why the date of Easter changes? It's because the church depends on two (yes 2) Pagan holy days to figure out it's date. Easter is the first Sunday after the first full moon (full moons are important to Pagans) after Ostara (the Spring Equinox). The church when it was forcing converts knew Pagans wouldn't give up their celebrations so the church "adopted" them and repackaged them. Santa? Also lots of Pagan associations, and he can even be linked to Odin and the Great Hunt. So it is you who needs to stop celebrating, and give back the holidays. The Christians ripped it all off from someone else. Most of the Catholic saints are in fact repackaged Pagan gods and goddesses. If you read the bible most of the clues about when Jesus was born will point to either fall or spring since the shepherds aren't in the fields in the middle of December when the Winter cold has hit. So now you know.
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Posted by GlassRB on May 1, 2012 at 2:29 PM · Report this
410
Awww, the little Christians got their noses out of joint when you called them on their bigotry. Um, Dan? You don't need to apologize for that.

Some people believe that the TERRIBLE SHIT in the Bible is literally true. They deserve to be called on it. That's what you did.

Did you disrespect their favourite book? Sure you did. But it's not wrong to have a huge amount of disrespect for bigotry and intolerance.
Posted by MichelleZB on May 1, 2012 at 4:33 PM · Report this
Sandiai 411
Says this Federal worker: Good Friday is not a national holiday.

From the Koran:

"These are the promises made to Muslim men who attain Heaven.
SURA LII:24
And there shall wait on them [good Muslim men] young boys of their own, as fair as virgin pearls.
SURA LXXVI:19
They shall be attended by boys graced with eternal youth, who will seem like scattered pearls to the beholders."

Posted by Sandiai on May 1, 2012 at 5:43 PM · Report this
412
GlassRB,
I'm glad you read up on the Pagan holidays. But all Pagans say the holidays where stolen from them, and many Christians might say the holidays where stolen from the Bible. Either way the I will concede that the two are intermixed now. So what do you think is older the Bible or the Pagan Holidays. That is open for debate.

Both histories go back a long ways. As I said I'm not a religious activist nor do I berate them. I think both sides just need to tolerate each other. I have never seen Christian's verbally assault Atheists. But have seen Atheists try to get a cross removed from different areas, as well as Nativity scenes. So who is bullying who? As a matter of fact all religions are tolerated here, yet today a Nigeria Muslim activists went to a Christian church and killed 39 people. Presumably for not being Muslim. That is a different subject altogether.

I wonder though, where the Holidays mentioned, recognized by our government, or whoever made them holidays on the calendar, based on Religious or Pagan beleifs.

Like the discussion though. Wish Dan could have voiced his opinions this respectfully.
Posted by tclopton on May 1, 2012 at 6:27 PM · Report this
413
Dan, don't ever apologize for being correct. All religion is bullshit. Complete and utter bullshit.
Posted by ginger k on May 1, 2012 at 6:51 PM · Report this
414
Why bother to apologize? You meant every word of it. I have seen many of your talks. You are a bully, period. You have shown your colors. People will despise you not because you are guy but because you are a bully and an offensive one at that. But that was exactly your intention, to offend Christians, Conservatives, anyone that doesn't think like you. The normal liberal hypocrite that bathes in hatred and intolerance while preaching tolerance. The only truly intolerant, racist, anti-Semitic, America bashing, woman bashing, God bashing, religious bashing people that I know, are all liberals............Your apology is phony. You are despised indeed............as I said, not because you are gay, but because you are an mean, intolerant, offensive, hurtful bully!!!
Posted by carilyn on May 1, 2012 at 9:05 PM · Report this
415
You are despised Dan, not because you are gay, but because you are an offensive, mean spirited, intolerant, spiteful, hurtful, hateful, bully!!! Most liberal loons are, so you fit right in.
Posted by carilyn on May 1, 2012 at 9:14 PM · Report this
416
Since I have another break finally. My point was/is why do Atheists celebrate the Holidays? Since as you yourself mentioned the God Mithra. My understanding, and I may be wrong, but Atheist don't believe in God, nor any God for that matter. Or is that just the Christian version of God. Paganism is a religion, albeit not Christian or Judaism, or Mohammedanism. So you would still have to call these celebrations religious despite the version you choose to celebrate. At least all the references I have ever seen of Paganism refers to it as a religion.

As I stated in my earlier point I am not a religious activist or scholar by any means. My wife is Catholic but she still tolerates my views, and I respect hers. I have been to her families house on Christmas. They had no tree, no presents. They simply celebrated by reciting the Rosary, praying, and the only symbol they had was a doll of the Baby Jesus, which at the end a couple would bring around and one would simply kiss it on the forehead. Of course they did have a big Christmas Dinner afterwards. I guess that would be the real Christian Holiday.

As for the Shepherds, having served in the Middle East and being in the desert in December (Kuwait at this time near the Iraq border), I have seen shepherds herding sheep at least twice during that time. Don't have a clue where they where going since there where no towns close by that I know of, even asked my platoon sergeant as much. My guess is that they where Bedouins.

Anyway if you could answer my question as to Atheists and whether or not they actually believe in Paganism I would appreciate that. Don't have time to really research that now.

Always trying to expand my knowledge.
Posted by tclopton on May 1, 2012 at 9:30 PM · Report this
dwightmoodyforgetsthings 417
@343 (and anyone else who thinks CONTEXT is so important)- If the Bible is supposed to be the guide to our understanding of an all-powerful, all loving, and all good deity, who the fuck does such a being get pushed around so easily by context? You almost make it sound like The Bible isn't divinely inspired, but rather simply a collection of myths, legends, genealogies, and edicts of a ethnic/religious group that once had it's own country, was swallowed by the Romans, then spat out again.
Posted by dwightmoodyforgetsthings http://www.reddit.com/r/spaceclop on May 1, 2012 at 10:19 PM · Report this
dwightmoodyforgetsthings 418
@397- No one gets Good Friday off and there's no such thing as heaven. Now go live your life like it's something more than a test.
Posted by dwightmoodyforgetsthings http://www.reddit.com/r/spaceclop on May 1, 2012 at 10:29 PM · Report this
419
@397
But I have to work on Good Friday.
On the plus side, I do like eating the chocolate Easter Bunnies. What role did they play in Jesus' ascension?
Were they regular bunnies that were trapped in the cave with dead Jesus and God turned them into chocolate so Jesus would have something tasty to eat when he came back to life?
Posted by fairly.unbalanced on May 1, 2012 at 10:36 PM · Report this
420
@412
"So what do you think is older the Bible or the Pagan Holidays. That is open for debate."

No it is not.
Christmas falls on Dec 25 each year, correct?
What day does Easter fall on?

"I have never seen Christian's verbally assault Atheists. But have seen Atheists try to get a cross removed from different areas, as well as Nativity scenes."

Look up Westboro Baptist Church.

@416
"My point was/is why do Atheists celebrate the Holidays?"

The same reason Christians eat chocolate bunnies on Easter.

"Anyway if you could answer my question as to Atheists and whether or not they actually believe in Paganism I would appreciate that."

Wikipedia - atheism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism

Wikipedia - pagan
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paganism
Posted by fairly.unbalanced on May 1, 2012 at 11:04 PM · Report this
dwightmoodyforgetsthings 421
@381- And yet homosexual behavior exists not just in humans but hundreds of other species. Genetics is complicated, and traits that might cause an individual not to reproduce might help a species to propagate. Most ants are incapable of reproduction, but there are more ants than humans on this planet by a long shot.

Christmas trees come from Germanic pagan traditions. Easter traditions (and the word Easter itself) come from a similar place.

The 1st Amendment clearly creates a separation of Church and State, which religious types have been trying to erode ever since it was created. I'd be perfectly happy to explain to my daughter why her days off of school were moved around. (They're not actually going to add days to the school calendar, that'd cost money.) I want the words "under God" removed from the Pledge, I want the "In God We Trust" slogan off our currency, I want the National Day of Prayer gone along with the prayers lead from the podium before any government meeting. If you want to pray, fine, that's freedom of religion. Prayers lead from the podium are establishment.

Posted by dwightmoodyforgetsthings http://www.reddit.com/r/spaceclop on May 1, 2012 at 11:48 PM · Report this
422
Dan, PLEASE READ #357 and #390. In your smug self assured speech, you acted as though there were no legitimate responses, regarding Christians who supposedly "ignore" certain passages . I hope you will take the humble route, and study from some reputable theologians and scholars (many of them Catholic) that you seemed to have never heard from in your descent over the years. You might be able to fool some young teenagers and the usual suspects, but not those who know better.
Posted by Trooper63 on May 2, 2012 at 12:40 AM · Report this
423
Mr. Savage,

I am a Christian moderate, a student of New Testament scholarship and church history, and an ordained minister. I have on several occasions spoken publicly against bullying based on sexual orientation or anything else, gender discrimination, etc. Often, such activities proceed on the basis of a grievously distorted interpretation of the Bible and how to appropriately apply it to questions of faith and morals. However, I have not heard any distortions quite so outrageous as the distortions in your remarks.

For example, you speak of slave-holders waving the Bible over slaves. But you ignore the historical fact that virtually everyone who successfully opposed American Chattel slavery, white and black, found a Biblical basis motivating them to do so. You seem to be completely unaware of, for example, the role of William Wilberforce (an English Evangelical) in getting the abolition movement rolling and outlawing the slave trade in the British Empire. You ignore Lincoln's deeply held convictions regarding the importance of scripture. Most inexcusably, you seem oblivious to the importance of John Brown and his crusade against slavery, with "a Bible in one hand and a gun in the other." What all this should suggest to any thinking person is that, perhaps, there is more to what the Bible has to say about slavery than Leviticus and Philemon.

You also act as if the Biblical case against homosexual behavior (not orientation!) starts and ends with the Levitical law. While you (barely) reference the New Testament a couple of times, the focus of your talk is to rail against obscure Old Testament laws which are, allegedly, "bullshit", with no awareness of context. However, I don't know of any serious, thinking pastor or scholar who objects to homosexual behavior solely on the basis of the Levitical law. In fact, most of us don't think it's all that relevant for exactly the reasons you cite -- and I for one find it quite curious that gay activists always focus on that section of scripture, ignoring the others. What is far more relevant to Christians is the strong New Testament witness holding that homosexual behavior is the result of separation from God (Romans 1), that sex outside of marriage should be avoided, and marriage is a divinely created institution that perhaps we shouldn't monkey with (Matthew 19). While modern "Gay theology" has done much to attempt to obscure these issues with rather incredible appeals to the putative meaning of words in the Biblical Greek, the reality is that they still stand, and that endorsement of homosexuality leaves any notion of Biblical authority in ragged tatters from which it will never recover.

Your speech wasn't about bullying; it was bullying. Calling someone's most deeply held religious beliefs "bullshit", not once but repeatedly, is bullying and name-calling, especially when its done from a position of authority. Doing so on the basis of a distorted understanding of those beliefs based on a laundry list culled from anti-Christian website is just stupid, and fails to recognize the very real sense in which all human rights -- gay or otherwise -- are ultimately built on a foundation Christianity has laid over the past 2000 years. While I disagree with your actions, and disagree vehemently with your characterization of the word of God as "bullshit", I can't help but wonder how long it would take you to cry "homophobia" if I ever described you, or any gay activist, as "pansy-assed"?

You owe those students, and Christians, and the nation, a much better apology than the one you've offered here. You owe us a genuine attempt to understand why we say what we say, and a permanent abandoning of verbal bullying of religious people. Not that I expect we will ever get it.

May the grace and love found in Jesus Christ become a reality in your life,

Rev. J.P. Narkinsky
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Posted by Fished on May 2, 2012 at 4:01 AM · Report this
425
Dan, Your apology showed a lot of class, especially because it was completely unnecessary. Kudos to you for speaking the truth. Keep up the good work!
Posted by oliveralexander on May 2, 2012 at 6:05 AM · Report this
426
@423
"However, I have not heard any distortions quite so outrageous as the distortions in your remarks."

Really? You've managed to get this far and you haven't heard the distortions from the Westboro Baptist Church?
Or you think that the Westboro Baptist Church has a more correct reading of the Bible than Dan does?
Posted by fairly.unbalanced on May 2, 2012 at 10:13 AM · Report this
427
Giving a shit about the social or political opinions of theologians makes about as much sense as taking geography lessons or stock tips from Star Trek or Lord of the Rings fans. At least people who speak Klingon or Elvish are actually saying something, unlike people who speak in tongues, and it's pretty rare for an argument about Captain Kirk or Frodo to result in someone being killed. But while Trekkies and hobbits and Christians may take their fictional worlds very seriously, that doesn't change the fact that these worlds are make-believe.
Posted by Chase on May 2, 2012 at 10:41 AM · Report this
428
Personally I don't see why you brought the Bible into the discussion at all. You say people use the Bible to justify bullying homosexuals. But bullying is just as condemned in the Bible as homosexuality. Jesus said to hate anyone is to murder them in your heart just as he said to look at anyone with lust is to commit adultery with them in your heart.

Jesus calls us all to a holy way of life. Bullying is totally against that way of life.
Posted by Morganie on May 2, 2012 at 3:48 PM · Report this
430
Yes that's ants, reproduce from the queen we know. However none of those animals can reproduce without the oppisite sex. So scientifically it "could" still be called wrong.

As for the religious references our founding fathers put many biblical placks in Washington. On top of the Washington Monuement is the Latin phrase Laus Deo -- "Praise be to God." and many others can be found around that are, Lincoln Monument and such. You can research if you'd like.

Through the debates in the House, Senate, and conference committees, the wording of all of these proposals was whittled down to the religion clauses of what is our 1st Amendment:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

Despite the secular nature of our national government, there is one unambiguous reference to Christ in the Constitution. Article VII dates the Constitution in "the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven."

So you can see our founding fathers where Christian and there values paved the way for us like it or not. I wouldn't ask anyone to become Christian, but at least respect those that are. To remove all the references of God from money could be viewed as taking from our heritage. While as I have stated I am not religious, I believe this country was founded on Christian principles and thus respect religion. So I would be opposed to removing things that have been around since this countries founding.

As for "Under God" in the pledge, I personally (while I do like it there) concede that point since it was not in the original drafting.

Lastly our calendar clearly references God:

Anno Domini (abbreviated as AD or A.D.) and Before Christ (abbreviated as BC or B.C.) are designations used to label or number years used with the Julian and Gregorian calendars. This calendar era is based on the traditionally reckoned year of the conception or birth of Jesus of Nazareth, with AD counting years after the start of this epoch, and BC denoting years before the start of the epoch.

The term Anno Domini is Medieval Latin, translated as In the year of the Lord.

We can't change history.

Feel free to research that as well if you'd like.

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Posted by tclopton on May 2, 2012 at 5:24 PM · Report this
431
fairlyunbalanced, Good point/points I like your reference to Christians eating chocolate.

Westboro Baptist Church I won't even defend. Indeed I believe other Baptist church's won't even recognize that particular church because of what they do, but I don't know if that is fact. Can't believe they didn't come to mind when I make that statement, but they don't just berate atheists, they protest at funerals for dead soldiers, some of whom where Christian. They are just plain stupid.

Before I got out of the Army I served on a funeral detail. Did roughly 10 funerals, Westboro flew people into to protest two of them. Shameful. To think they can't even leave a family in peace when they are burying a loved one. And our government still allows it. I consider that just as bad. The Supreme Court ruled on that so I guess I/we have to live with it.

Posted by tclopton on May 2, 2012 at 5:43 PM · Report this
432
I admire the fact that you apologized, altho I think it was unnecessary (well maybe necessary in a sense, but not merited I suppose might be a better way to put it) and that you do not attack religions, tho I don't really have a problem with people who do. I admire a lot of other things about what you do, although I certainly see you as a flawed human like the rest of us. At least you see yourself that way, too! -HK
Posted by svg_hlfk on May 2, 2012 at 8:49 PM · Report this
dwightmoodyforgetsthings 433
@430- I've worked the reference desk at Harvard and MIT, I have done the research. I've also done a lot of thinking. It's clear to me you have done neither. You don't understand the Theory of Evolution.

If the Founders wanted America to be a Christian country, don't you think they would have put Jesus in there some where in The Constitution beside the date? A simple reference to the calendar convention of the time is not an endorsement of a religious nature for the nation. Moreover, if you actually did some research, you'd find that a large number of the
Founding Fathers would not be thought of as Christian, and many did not think of themselves that way.

References to God on our currency are not original. The first appearence on a coin was in 1864 and on paper money it was in the 1950s. Again, you clearly haven't done the research.

Learned people nowadays use CE (Common Era) and BCE (Before Common Era) for dates. It's more inclusive and besides the date of the birth of Jesus (if he existed) isn't known exactly. Though it's fairly certain it happened in spring, not December.

You have a condescending attitude you certainly haven't learned, and I hope you shut the fuck up until you actually have some knowledge to share. You ought to be ashamed of yourself.
Posted by dwightmoodyforgetsthings http://www.reddit.com/r/spaceclop on May 3, 2012 at 12:51 AM · Report this
Rebecca F. 434
This may not be relevant to the original point, but actually, Easter is a celebration of the resurrection, not the ascension.
Posted by Rebecca F. http://www.smartconservativewoman.blog.com on May 3, 2012 at 1:17 AM · Report this
435
Say what you will about the middle ages, but there's something to be said for a world where you don't have to listen to countless middle-aged chodes misquote a bad translation of their own sacred text and ham-fistedly staple it to their own provincial world view.

Martin Luther and Jan Hus, this is all your fault.
Posted by FonsieScheme on May 3, 2012 at 7:12 AM · Report this
438
Perhaps we as Christians should look at this more deeply.
Christians have flaws that have indeed impacted countless others.

Instead of defending our religion to people who (rightfully) wish to dismiss it,
let's look at our own religion and religious view points and do something to fix what is
obviously wrong.

While not all of us are out judging people who are gay (and all the other judgments being made that aren't worth mentioning here), several of us are, and I see it in action all of the time.
What ground have we to stand on?
Ever heard of One Million Moms? And they claim to be Christian, when the very basis of the organization is flawed. And as mentioned a few times earlier, Woodsboro Baptist Church (which most of us have already dismissed as "Christian," (HOPEFULLY!) but they are still standing).

Instead of getting upset and offended (not saying it is unreasonable, but not the main focus here) we should look deeper into what's really going on.
Posted by Insertscreenname on May 3, 2012 at 9:55 AM · Report this
AndyHogue 439
Not all Christians read the Bible "selectively," Dan.

With all due respect and kindness, your remarks show an ignorance of how the New Testament supercedes and amends the Old Testament. If you didn't learn this in the Christian circles you were raised around, then I'd like to revisit some key concepts with you (or anyone else curious) sometime.

Below is my response to your remarks, via Facebook. Anyone is welcome to chime in. http://m.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=1…
Posted by AndyHogue http://m.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=10150864248869579&refid=21 on May 4, 2012 at 12:39 PM · Report this
440
BRAVO to you, and your use of the term, "bullshit" was appropriate and apt, as was your remark about those who become "pansy-assed" when "you push back". Keep on brother- your speaking style is charismatic and wonderful.
Posted by smkovalinsky on May 4, 2012 at 3:17 PM · Report this
443
I really feel you overstepped here. I am a Christian. A devout bible believing Christian. Not perfect, just trying to do my best. Forgiven and learning and hopefully growing.The mother and step mother of 7 children. One of which openly gay and in a relationship. I taught all my children to respect others. As a Christian, yes, I struggle with my daughter being gay. That's not bigotry. Its honesty. And I know a lot of liberal non Christians who struggle with it too. I love her though, and so does God and we have a good relationship and we will work through it.
You have taken a stand against bullying and whether or not you call it that, that is EXACTLY what you did in that room. If you were standing up there criticizing any other group of people, Muslims, Gay people, or anyone else -everyone would be up in arms over your comments. But in todays society the only ones where bullying is accepted is Christians, because they don't go with the flow of popular opinion. Why focus on one group of people as the culprit? So its okay to bully Christians, just not gay people or Muslims or anyone else right? For you to play semantics with words is a cop out on your part. Plain and simple, you were bullying Christians. ANY time you ridicule someone's beliefs, lifestyle, morals, values etc -YOU ARE BULLYING! You want to help it stop????????..........lead by example!!!!!
You want Christians to learn to accept homosexuality? Don't use their faith against them, use their faith show them love. To remind them of Christ's love for all. Don't mock our faith and tell us the bible is bullshit. Tell us Christ died for ALL. Gay or not. Muslims also believe homosexuality is a sin, so do Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, etc but it seems only Christians come under fire for it. No one seems to mind that or confront Muslims for those beliefs. To be a Christian gives you the right to your opinion, even if that opinion believes homosexuality is wrong. BUT IT DOES NOT give you the right to ridicule, discriminate, hate or bully a gay person! Why not start there? Christians don't need to be put down for their beliefs so you can teach them not to bully. We are smarter than that. Begin teaching Christians their faith does NOT give them the right to bully. How about that? And Mr. Savage....you do not have the right to bully either.
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Posted by GGbeese on May 13, 2012 at 3:25 PM · Report this
445
That was not an apology.... You merely tried to explain your way out of very insensitive statements that hurt people. When you say "what I meant" you are not saying sorry but justifying your actions. Way to bully people who think different than you.
Posted by Shawnb72 on May 15, 2012 at 10:46 AM · Report this
446
When an apology is laced with "What I mean is" it is not really an apology but a justification. So you justified how you bullied kids who don't think like you, while you give a motivational speeches on anti bullying. Wow....
Posted by Shawnb72 on May 15, 2012 at 10:55 AM · Report this
447
Just for the record, I actually read Biblical Greek pretty well, and have studied this issue in some depth.

While reasonable people could debate the meaning of the term "malakos", I haven't seen any reasonable, convincing argument that the word "arsenokoites" means anything but "homosexual." In fact, the word is an elision of two words, the word for "man" and the word for "bed", and is at that point an allusion to the Old Testament law in the ancient Greek translation of the Old Testament (called the Septuagint, or LXX). This pattern of alluding to the Old Testament without actually saying he's doing so is very common in Paul, and there is no reason to doubt that's what's happening here.

Furthermore, Romans 1:26ff quite clearly describe homosexual behavior as a result of a lifestyle that has rejected God. In this case, there is no dispute about the basic meaning of ANY of the words, but gay theologians have sought to soften the impact by claiming that it's just a reference to temple prostitution. I do not find this argument convincing.

Moreover, in Mt 19, Jesus quite clearly describe marriage as a divinely ordained institution that occurs between one man and one woman. This text is routinely ignored, perhaps because most Christians are so ignorant of their own scriptures they don't even know it exists.

I will happily affirm that the Bible condemns violence, bullying, etc. against gays (lesbians, transgendered, "queer", bisexual, whatever the full list is nowadays.) But that's not because the Bible says "it's okay to be gay," it's because the Bible and especially the New Testament forbids any sort of violence, bullying, marginalization, etc., for anyone who sins. Those who sin by indulging in sex with their own gender (not, contrary to popular belief, by being attracted to their own gender!) are no different, and I would not advocate that they be bullied, taunted, executed, "bashed", or anything else any more than I would advocate the same for a shoplifter.

Granted, there are Christians who advocate such things. But, then again, there were also gay people who persecuted Jews in Nazi Germany (Ernst Rohm, among others). Contrary to the nonsense that spews forth from some groups who self-describe as "Christian", this doesn't not prove that the Nazis were all gay nor that homosexuality led to the holocaust. There are also many examples of avowedly, militantly atheist regimes that have done horrid things -- Pol Pot, Mao, Stalin, North Korea, etc. I would never use such facts to smear all atheists with the crimes of a few.

My basic problem with your comments, Dan, is that they reveal that you don't really understand WHY so many Christians object to homosexual *behavior*. Instead, they consist of a sophomoric, ill-considered rant against Christians and the Bible that lacks any understanding of why Christians feel free to eat a pork chop. Shame on you -- you have become the very thing you condemn.
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Posted by Fished on June 1, 2012 at 4:14 AM · Report this
460
I know this is old, but it really bothers me how so many people just lump the attitudes of all Christians together. The argument Dan gives for parts of the bible being bullshit is a weak one, because it relies on the hypocrisy on many of those who follow it.

I am a Christian, and I completely support gay rights. However, I do not believe that any of the bible is bullshit. I do not pick and choose parts of the bible to follow, but rather take every part of the bible in the context of the book as a whole as well as the social context, and from that draw conclusions about what I believe the point of it really is. I'm sure I don't have everything right yet and probably never will, but that's all part of being a Christian and learning to understand God more.

One example of taking the social context into consideration is the issue of slavery. In biblical times there was a very different economy, and many people chose to sell themselves as slaves for the security that it brought. There is a huge difference between this and forced slavery.
Posted by Izza on March 6, 2013 at 4:33 PM · Report this
461
I know this is old, but it really bothers me how so many people just lump the attitudes of all Christians together. The argument Dan gives for parts of the bible being bullshit is a weak one, because it relies on the hypocrisy on many of those who follow it.

I am a Christian, and I completely support gay rights. However, I do not believe that any of the bible is bullshit. I do not pick and choose parts of the bible to follow, but rather take every part of the bible in the context of the book as a whole as well as the social context, and from that draw conclusions about what I believe the point of it really is. I'm sure I don't have everything right yet and probably never will, but that's all part of being a Christian and learning to understand God more.

One example of taking the social context into consideration is the issue of slavery. In biblical times there was a very different economy, and many people chose to sell themselves as slaves for the security that it brought. There is a huge difference between this and forced slavery.
Posted by Izza on March 6, 2013 at 4:37 PM · Report this
484
Came to have a look after the piece on Brian Brown's remarks about Terry today. 435 wins the thread. 447 makes some useful points, but there are people who make Dan's argument better than he himself does: those asking about divorce. Why are the Christians campaigning for the right to attack and exclude gay people not also campaigning for divorce to be made illegal? If the very clear prohibitions on divorce are contextual and can be pushed aside, so can the very few mentions of homosexuality in the New Testament, and we can all go home and stop picking on each other.
Posted by misspiggy on June 19, 2015 at 5:03 AM · Report this
485
Agh - meant remarriage after divorce. Doh.
Posted by misspiggy on June 19, 2015 at 5:05 AM · Report this

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