Savage Love Podcast Comments
Savage Love Episode 289
19
The bio play parties are a much, much bigger can of worms than Dan implied.
Yet again, I don't think he was thinking specifically about the women-only play parties, which is where most of the problems lie.
I know, many trans-women. If you know enough transwomen, then you *will know*, that there are a certain proportion who are... how do I put this. Transvestites? Straight males, who are fetishists?
They are essentially straight males, who are sexually attracted to females. So sexually attracted, it gets them turned on to think of themselves as females, getting with other females. They tend to adopt a very... performative female identity. Going for a 'Nana' look if older, or wearing stockings and the type of clothing that no actual females of their acquaintance wear. They usually don't fully transition. Regardless of whether they do, they often change their minds later, and go back.
Note: This is NOT all transwomen!
But... If it is a women-only party, it may even be your biggest group of transwomen.
The question is. Is that a safe-space for women? Generally, no.
I know not one, but MULTIPLE of these transwoman who, as males, were the *abusive* partners in straight relationships. In the two examples I am most familiar with, worse, both of them eagerly adopted a 'victim' persona as females.
(You'll think I'm exaggerating, but look, one of them lied to her lawyer, and implied she was the wife in her former straight marriage, and had been 'cruelly kicked out of home by her partner'/husband - not that she had been the husband, and had been physically abusing her wife and children, and her wife finally kicked her out of home after she attacked and threatened her son with a knife. Yes, that demonstrates an awful lot of crazy to not correct your lawyer before arriving in court, but she really REALLY liked getting attention and playing the victim).
Having events where events are grouped by birth-sex is usually more comfortable to women, e.g. transmen at the women's gathering, but again, that still leaves a lot of transfolk unhappy.
Thing is, there does have to be some acknowledgement, that it may not be any safer a space having transwomen present, than having men present at a women's gathering.
And really, really often, women need a women-only safe space. They are denied that too often in society, as the expense of mens needs, but while transwoman have left that sphere of male privilege in many ways, and are often facing worse discrimination in some areas (but, not others), they are often still coming from that socialised assumption of male privilege.
The only way I've seen this done well, is to explicitly have pan-sexual and gender-queer events as well. Taking away the women-only events does not increase the overall feeling of safety.
More...
Yet again, I don't think he was thinking specifically about the women-only play parties, which is where most of the problems lie.
I know, many trans-women. If you know enough transwomen, then you *will know*, that there are a certain proportion who are... how do I put this. Transvestites? Straight males, who are fetishists?
They are essentially straight males, who are sexually attracted to females. So sexually attracted, it gets them turned on to think of themselves as females, getting with other females. They tend to adopt a very... performative female identity. Going for a 'Nana' look if older, or wearing stockings and the type of clothing that no actual females of their acquaintance wear. They usually don't fully transition. Regardless of whether they do, they often change their minds later, and go back.
Note: This is NOT all transwomen!
But... If it is a women-only party, it may even be your biggest group of transwomen.
The question is. Is that a safe-space for women? Generally, no.
I know not one, but MULTIPLE of these transwoman who, as males, were the *abusive* partners in straight relationships. In the two examples I am most familiar with, worse, both of them eagerly adopted a 'victim' persona as females.
(You'll think I'm exaggerating, but look, one of them lied to her lawyer, and implied she was the wife in her former straight marriage, and had been 'cruelly kicked out of home by her partner'/husband - not that she had been the husband, and had been physically abusing her wife and children, and her wife finally kicked her out of home after she attacked and threatened her son with a knife. Yes, that demonstrates an awful lot of crazy to not correct your lawyer before arriving in court, but she really REALLY liked getting attention and playing the victim).
Having events where events are grouped by birth-sex is usually more comfortable to women, e.g. transmen at the women's gathering, but again, that still leaves a lot of transfolk unhappy.
Thing is, there does have to be some acknowledgement, that it may not be any safer a space having transwomen present, than having men present at a women's gathering.
And really, really often, women need a women-only safe space. They are denied that too often in society, as the expense of mens needs, but while transwoman have left that sphere of male privilege in many ways, and are often facing worse discrimination in some areas (but, not others), they are often still coming from that socialised assumption of male privilege.
The only way I've seen this done well, is to explicitly have pan-sexual and gender-queer events as well. Taking away the women-only events does not increase the overall feeling of safety.
18
To the woman with the son who shows interest in cosmetics and other female-identified stuff: show him websites such as MAC Cosmetics, which has photos and biographies of their make-up artists, a number of whom are men. Also, google the Academy Awards for best make up, and there are bound to be male make-up artists to learn about. There are role models for him out there.
17
@14
1) True
2) If you say so (hahaha just kidding!)
3) that's exactly my point! I think there are moves in porn that people can and should try, and if you're in bed with someone who kicks you out of bed for trying something different and kinda "dirty" you shouldn't be in bed with them.
4) People laugh and giggle in porn sometimes too.
5) True. But there is some good lesbian porn out there, you have to really dig for it, but it's out there.
I hear you about not matching reality with porn, but I think that just takes basic common sense and an understanding about the way the world works... that I think even teenagers have...it's similar to the way we compare reality to what we see in movies and television. We don't expect everyone in the world to be supermodel gorgeous the same way we don't expect all the dicks we're in bed with to be 10 inches long (although when you find one it's like yaaaaaaaay!). Anyway, I'm pro porn! But yes, I don't think sex education should come strictly from porn, I'm with you there.
The best sex education comes from experience with a partner you can trust (maybe even love) and feel comfortable opening up to...no pun intended....
1) True
2) If you say so (hahaha just kidding!)
3) that's exactly my point! I think there are moves in porn that people can and should try, and if you're in bed with someone who kicks you out of bed for trying something different and kinda "dirty" you shouldn't be in bed with them.
4) People laugh and giggle in porn sometimes too.
5) True. But there is some good lesbian porn out there, you have to really dig for it, but it's out there.
I hear you about not matching reality with porn, but I think that just takes basic common sense and an understanding about the way the world works... that I think even teenagers have...it's similar to the way we compare reality to what we see in movies and television. We don't expect everyone in the world to be supermodel gorgeous the same way we don't expect all the dicks we're in bed with to be 10 inches long (although when you find one it's like yaaaaaaaay!). Anyway, I'm pro porn! But yes, I don't think sex education should come strictly from porn, I'm with you there.
The best sex education comes from experience with a partner you can trust (maybe even love) and feel comfortable opening up to...no pun intended....
16
I disagree with the anger towards the people who wanted to have the bio male and bio female parties. Everyone is getting worked up about who is being excluded. I think its fair for people wanting to play with the people they are attracted to. It would be like a guy bitching because he cant go to a lesbian party. I would just suggest scheduling a all inclusive party the same night and letting people make the choice of where they go.
15
Hey. I know people might've missed it (being at the end of the podcast and all), but I just wanted to say a HUGE thank you to Dan for discussing Amendment One and providing information about Protect NC Families, the organization that's fighting it.
I have a domestic partnership in this state, and the vote is terrifyingly close. My partner and I both called in several weeks ago, and it was so rewarding to hear Dan's familiar voice telling the rest of the world about this heinous bag of cumcubes. (To reference an earlier episode.)
So, again, thank you. And, again, if you know anyone who knows anyone who knows anyone in North Carolina, tell them to get out ASAP and vote NO on Amendment One. I'd like to still have a domestic partnership in three days.
I have a domestic partnership in this state, and the vote is terrifyingly close. My partner and I both called in several weeks ago, and it was so rewarding to hear Dan's familiar voice telling the rest of the world about this heinous bag of cumcubes. (To reference an earlier episode.)
So, again, thank you. And, again, if you know anyone who knows anyone who knows anyone in North Carolina, tell them to get out ASAP and vote NO on Amendment One. I'd like to still have a domestic partnership in three days.
14
@13: The problem with getting sex education from porn though is that a lot of people grow up with a very skewed idea of what sex is supposed to look like. Some kind of obvious things that true in real life but not true in porn:
1) Getting from one position to another is not seamless, and is often kind of awkward.
2) A dick doesn't have to be huge to be satisfying.
3) There are quite a few moves that seem like you can do them without question in porn that can get you kicked out of bed IRL.
4) People laugh and giggle during sex, because it's not always super-seriously sexy.
5) Lesbian porn marketed toward men has very little to do with actual lesbian sex.
I'm not saying porn is bad for what it's usually used for, but I don't think it's a good educator. The mark of a good lay is someone who can adjust their technique in the moment to the reactions they're getting, and it's hard to learn that from porn.
1) Getting from one position to another is not seamless, and is often kind of awkward.
2) A dick doesn't have to be huge to be satisfying.
3) There are quite a few moves that seem like you can do them without question in porn that can get you kicked out of bed IRL.
4) People laugh and giggle during sex, because it's not always super-seriously sexy.
5) Lesbian porn marketed toward men has very little to do with actual lesbian sex.
I'm not saying porn is bad for what it's usually used for, but I don't think it's a good educator. The mark of a good lay is someone who can adjust their technique in the moment to the reactions they're getting, and it's hard to learn that from porn.
13
LMAO at the box of porn movie!!!! hahahahahHA! Hey, I DO have a box of porn (it's a bag of porn, actually) from when I was a teenager and the world wide web wasn't the efficient beautiful porn machine it is today, and i will be DAMNED if I'm getting rid of it! There is some good shit in there! Classics.
And, ps., Dan, I'm all for kids getting a proper sex education outside of porn, but I wouldn't knock the idea of learning things from porn! Some porno moves are fucking hot. And my first boyfriend was a porn fanatic and he combined the porn with TLC, and sex education programs and became the best lover ever. (you don't know, because as you've admitted, you only look at pics and don't watch videos ;) HA!
And, ps., Dan, I'm all for kids getting a proper sex education outside of porn, but I wouldn't knock the idea of learning things from porn! Some porno moves are fucking hot. And my first boyfriend was a porn fanatic and he combined the porn with TLC, and sex education programs and became the best lover ever. (you don't know, because as you've admitted, you only look at pics and don't watch videos ;) HA!
12
Wow, Dan is not a woman, in case you were wondering. Women do want to know--maybe not just yet--if a friend or acquaintance was pursued while a guy was still technically with them. This is so we can bond with each other and hate the dude together. It's about confirming a little what a jerk he was being, about neutralizing the competition (even in the past) between them by admitting it happened. This can be unhealthy but among balanced females (even ones who don't hate their exes) it's a pretty normal part of making friends with someone who's been in a social circle or network like this. We want to know and get closer by knowing, feel better about each other when we know. Even if it's not gonna be a slumber party besties kind off friendship. Your ability to casually fess up and share the goods on the dude is a meaure of your suitability and a measure of whether you are a suitable friendly acquaintance.
Ask a woman, Dan. You'll get a whole 'nother answer.
Ask a woman, Dan. You'll get a whole 'nother answer.
11
Re: the caller who has been befriended by the ex-gf of a recent hook-up, it seems pretty obvious to me that the ex-gf is only interested in manipulating the caller to get the details of the hook-up(s)—her requirements to be bff sound blatantly contrived to that end. Small town or no, it is awfully suspicious for the ex-gf of someone you hooked up with to show up in town, immediately befriend you, and then create criteria for that friendship that would require you to confess all of the details of your tryst with her ex-bf.
10
I'm pretty sure I know what convention the caller referred to regarding the segregated play parties; I've attended this event several times, and every year, the language used specifying "bio male only" and "bio female only" throws me. While I do not know the play party hosts, this might be a good opportunity to forward this episode to the convention's heads to point out that the language and exclusion for these two play parties has been noticed and is not appreciated by all. Even if I'm wrong and this is not the same event even though it uses the same language and excludes transpeople, it could never hurt to point out that regardless of the location or event, a little more inclusion would be appreciated.
8
@6, it still made me uncomfortable. I'm a woman with some stereotypically male characteristics - I say what I mean, I tend to be very logical, I fall on the Asperger's spectrum - and it really bugs me when my gender is reduced to stereotypes, because I can't walk two steps in my world without running into a woman who knocks down all those stereotypes just by existing. So they seem really stupid to me, without a grain of truth.
@5 - I think it comes down to the fact that specifying an exclusively "biologically female" party denies people their self-identification. It tells them, "It doesn't matter how much you feel you are a woman; we know better by looking at your genitals." It's illogical as well: the emotional sanctity of a women-only safe space, which you describe and which I agree definitely exists, is not hampered by the presence of people who identify as women but happen to have dicks. Gender is more important to social interaction than biological sex anyway, so their rule is ill-conceived and discriminatory, and it needs to change. Dan is right that they're discriminating, they know full well against exactly whom they are discriminating, and they need to own up to it.
@5 - I think it comes down to the fact that specifying an exclusively "biologically female" party denies people their self-identification. It tells them, "It doesn't matter how much you feel you are a woman; we know better by looking at your genitals." It's illogical as well: the emotional sanctity of a women-only safe space, which you describe and which I agree definitely exists, is not hampered by the presence of people who identify as women but happen to have dicks. Gender is more important to social interaction than biological sex anyway, so their rule is ill-conceived and discriminatory, and it needs to change. Dan is right that they're discriminating, they know full well against exactly whom they are discriminating, and they need to own up to it.
7
Dan, I just wanted to say thanks for your comment about the segregated play parties.
You're absolutely right; when people have to explain why they are discriminating against a group of people, generally it's their subjective fears that come to light rather than any objective or empirical reasoning.
You're absolutely right; when people have to explain why they are discriminating against a group of people, generally it's their subjective fears that come to light rather than any objective or empirical reasoning.
6
I'm glad Dan clarified that the difference between men and women being more "logical" or not is probably wholly reducible to socialization.
5
In response to the discussion about men-only and women-only play parties, trans exclusion, and gender-segregated events... I definitely agree with Dan that having play parties that only admit biological males or biological females is trans-exclusive and not cool. I don't support events that, in their very set-up, are trans-exclusive. However, I've been to some that are in a bit of a hairier middle ground and I go back and forth about what to think about them.
I understand - and feel - the need for play parties that at least have an emphasis on female and/or queer goers. As a lesbian kinkster, I've been to some general play parties and they tend to be mostly hetero, with mostly men seeking out play partners, and I've felt uncomfortable at a few, because I didn't feel as relaxed when being looked at by straight cisgendered dudes as I would have if around queers and transfolks and women. It's a slightly more threatening (and less sexy) environment for me. I also have attended some play parties that I really enjoyed that were specifically for women and transfolks, and that was great. There were a lot of trans attendees (transguys and transwomen both), which was great. I felt considerably more comfortable in that play party environment (and had far, far more options as to who to play with). This is not to say that straight cisgendered guys make me uncomfortable in daily life - far from it - OR that they'd all make me uncomfortable at a play party, but it is a little less safe-feeling for me and some other queer women I've talked to. So I can see the advantages of having some parties that are separated out in some fashion (though while always being *explicitly* trans-inclusive) - and I've benefited from them.
However, it does also rub me the wrong way, thinking about it from a place outside of what makes me comfortable in the moment, to hold events that exclude anyone based upon gender. Excluding cisgendered dudes does seem kind of wrong on a number of levels. I'm not sure what to think, ultimately.
Regardless, I think the events the caller was discussing should be explicitly trans-inclusive, even if they're still to be men-only and women-only. Maybe men-only/women-only and transfolks should be welcomed OR one party should be all male-identified people and the other should be all female-identified. The problem with the latter is that it might feel not entirely inclusive to those who don't have a personal identification with a gender, when looked at as a binary (male OR female), and who fall somewhere in between. Tricky issue!
More...
I understand - and feel - the need for play parties that at least have an emphasis on female and/or queer goers. As a lesbian kinkster, I've been to some general play parties and they tend to be mostly hetero, with mostly men seeking out play partners, and I've felt uncomfortable at a few, because I didn't feel as relaxed when being looked at by straight cisgendered dudes as I would have if around queers and transfolks and women. It's a slightly more threatening (and less sexy) environment for me. I also have attended some play parties that I really enjoyed that were specifically for women and transfolks, and that was great. There were a lot of trans attendees (transguys and transwomen both), which was great. I felt considerably more comfortable in that play party environment (and had far, far more options as to who to play with). This is not to say that straight cisgendered guys make me uncomfortable in daily life - far from it - OR that they'd all make me uncomfortable at a play party, but it is a little less safe-feeling for me and some other queer women I've talked to. So I can see the advantages of having some parties that are separated out in some fashion (though while always being *explicitly* trans-inclusive) - and I've benefited from them.
However, it does also rub me the wrong way, thinking about it from a place outside of what makes me comfortable in the moment, to hold events that exclude anyone based upon gender. Excluding cisgendered dudes does seem kind of wrong on a number of levels. I'm not sure what to think, ultimately.
Regardless, I think the events the caller was discussing should be explicitly trans-inclusive, even if they're still to be men-only and women-only. Maybe men-only/women-only and transfolks should be welcomed OR one party should be all male-identified people and the other should be all female-identified. The problem with the latter is that it might feel not entirely inclusive to those who don't have a personal identification with a gender, when looked at as a binary (male OR female), and who fall somewhere in between. Tricky issue!
3
@1: Seriously! I am guessing by his accent that he doesn't work for Air Canada, so now I get an extra reason to be happy I live north of the 49th.
2
People still have boxes of porn. My husband and I have a *steamer trunk* of porn in our closet - mostly Playboys, a few Playgirls, and quite a few Heavy Metals. So far it hasn't jumped out at us and tried to devour anybody.
1
To the proud pilot with the narrow definition of mile high club membership: do you work for an airline, and if so, which one? I'm not asking so I can find you and "suck you off" or whatever; I'd like to know so that I don't take flights with you. I'd rather my pilots focused on flying the plane carrying one or dozens or hundreds of people instead of inviting the latest cum dumpster into the cockpit to blow a load on (or in). Thanks.
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