Slog Comments
Tony Perkins: Pray for Dan Savage!
53
@52 how did you get "pray away the gay" from my post? You may feel that "noone's listening," but that's not been my experience. You're perfectly welcome to feel however you wish about religion, but please don't try to tell me that you've managed to prove a negative ("God isn't listening").
52
@50:
Hah! I'm pretty sure that Dan has a good handle on how he feels about religion. For starters, he's not some conflicted 20 year old trying to figure out why "the Christians" hate him so much. He's an ex-Catholic, with a capital C. He attended a Catholic school for much of his education. He even went to seminary school with the intention of becoming a priest (in part because he wanted to never come out as gay).
Now, while getting to know your religion better is a well-worn route to Atheism, it isn't always. But you know something else? Trying to pray away the gay *usually* ensures that people come to the conclusion that there is no god listening to your prayers (and those who don't, create entire ministries vehemently decrying homosexuality, so as to remove themselves from temptation). Sometimes it's not just because there's some disagreement with the church on policy. Sometimes it's because of practical experience to demonstrate that noone's listening.
Hah! I'm pretty sure that Dan has a good handle on how he feels about religion. For starters, he's not some conflicted 20 year old trying to figure out why "the Christians" hate him so much. He's an ex-Catholic, with a capital C. He attended a Catholic school for much of his education. He even went to seminary school with the intention of becoming a priest (in part because he wanted to never come out as gay).
Now, while getting to know your religion better is a well-worn route to Atheism, it isn't always. But you know something else? Trying to pray away the gay *usually* ensures that people come to the conclusion that there is no god listening to your prayers (and those who don't, create entire ministries vehemently decrying homosexuality, so as to remove themselves from temptation). Sometimes it's not just because there's some disagreement with the church on policy. Sometimes it's because of practical experience to demonstrate that noone's listening.
50
@30/31 - You're making a lot of interesting assumptions about religion, there. I pray because it helps me affirm *for me* what is important in my life. It's a prayer, but also a promise. Most of the scientific research on the power of prayer is BS, but there's quite a bit of literature on the power of publicly affirming your intent to do something and how that helps you follow through. For me, I'm "publicly" affirming before my deity that I want to keep doing what I feel is right (be it fighting for gay rights, getting enough exercise, being a good mother, or whatever).
I can't say whether my prayers for Dan have any effect on him - maybe God does something, maybe knowing that Christians are actually praying *for* him instead of praying to change him will affect how he feels about religion in some small way, or maybe it makes no difference. But it makes a difference to me, in the way that I approach the world (and the fight for gay rights), so I pray anyway.
I can't say whether my prayers for Dan have any effect on him - maybe God does something, maybe knowing that Christians are actually praying *for* him instead of praying to change him will affect how he feels about religion in some small way, or maybe it makes no difference. But it makes a difference to me, in the way that I approach the world (and the fight for gay rights), so I pray anyway.
48
@28 "The evidence suggests that Greeks and Romans, to say nothing of Jews, probably would have been startled by the idea of same-sex marriage as an equivalent substitute for opposite-sex marriage."
Didn't Nero officially marry a man, Pythagoras, as his husband, then later castrated a boy, Sporus, and married him as his wife - right at the time (50s to 60s) when Paul was writing ? Tacitus and Dio Cassus seem to have found those marriages less abhorrent than the matricide of Agrippina.
Didn't Nero officially marry a man, Pythagoras, as his husband, then later castrated a boy, Sporus, and married him as his wife - right at the time (50s to 60s) when Paul was writing ? Tacitus and Dio Cassus seem to have found those marriages less abhorrent than the matricide of Agrippina.
47
You're already half like Paul/Saul - an articulate gay man. All you have to do is get some self-hatred.
46
@11 Marrena - right on!
I have no doubt that Tony Perkins is a closeted gay, and a pathetic one at that ...spreading his hatred just like other raging homophobes, but no less obvious - a la Ted "Meth Rent Boy" Haggard, George "Rentboy Lifting My Luggage" Rekers, Mark "Masturbation Makes You Gay" Driscoll ...the list goes on ...and on...
Studies have shown that the most virulent homophobes are likely gay themselves. It's sort of obvious that no straight man who is secure in his own sexuality has such a need to expend massive energy to denigrate gays - even if it's under cover of religion and "The Bible Says...". And speaking of Mark Driscoll ...what a weirdo ...he will be exposed in due time, likely as one of his acolytes returns from a male-only "bonding" retreat with all the salacious details.
I have no doubt that Tony Perkins is a closeted gay, and a pathetic one at that ...spreading his hatred just like other raging homophobes, but no less obvious - a la Ted "Meth Rent Boy" Haggard, George "Rentboy Lifting My Luggage" Rekers, Mark "Masturbation Makes You Gay" Driscoll ...the list goes on ...and on...
Studies have shown that the most virulent homophobes are likely gay themselves. It's sort of obvious that no straight man who is secure in his own sexuality has such a need to expend massive energy to denigrate gays - even if it's under cover of religion and "The Bible Says...". And speaking of Mark Driscoll ...what a weirdo ...he will be exposed in due time, likely as one of his acolytes returns from a male-only "bonding" retreat with all the salacious details.
40
I wish Tony would just come out as a bottom already. He could be happily living in a 24/7 D/s relationship with a big burly master just like he clearly wants, and not bothering the rest of us about it.
Of course, I feel that way about a lot of overly-enthusiastic Christians. They come in two types, really: there are the Pat Robertsons of the world, who secretly think they are God, and there are the Tony Perkinses, who really just want a God who'll flog them, tell them what bad little sinners they are, and fuck their asses blue.
Of course, I feel that way about a lot of overly-enthusiastic Christians. They come in two types, really: there are the Pat Robertsons of the world, who secretly think they are God, and there are the Tony Perkinses, who really just want a God who'll flog them, tell them what bad little sinners they are, and fuck their asses blue.
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I mean, sure I buy it, but you're going to need more than one article to say that's the "generally accepted" thinking about Paul.
38
LOL. Too funny.
I just hate it when anyone says "I'll pray for you [to become a Christian]". Their righteousness is appalling!
I just hate it when anyone says "I'll pray for you [to become a Christian]". Their righteousness is appalling!
37
If Christians disagreed with Dan, they would stone their children, kill non-virgins, not shave their faces, never divorce or remarry, and never eat lobster. What made them so mad, when they don't take issue with what he said? They think it is bullshit too, except for the parts of the bible they cherry-pick.
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@27 Agreed that long range psychoanalysis is pretty spotty at best.
I base my assessment of Paul's violent, not homo, nature on his own statements. He practically brags about how mean he was to the first Christians, persecuting them and putting them to death. He makes these statements to enhance his credibility as a convert. ("If Jesus can save me, he can save anyone!") Think of how many recovering addicts like to brag about how much x they used to do before they got treatment. Very similar situations. The recovered addict still remembers that first super-high, and Paul remembered the rush from crushing skulls. That's a recipe for repression.
@29 Think of the 12 steps, and how the recovering addict must apologize for their actions. Psychopaths may have guilt, just not necessarily at the time they are acting psychopathic. You may be thinking of sociopaths, like Tony Perkins.
I base my assessment of Paul's violent, not homo, nature on his own statements. He practically brags about how mean he was to the first Christians, persecuting them and putting them to death. He makes these statements to enhance his credibility as a convert. ("If Jesus can save me, he can save anyone!") Think of how many recovering addicts like to brag about how much x they used to do before they got treatment. Very similar situations. The recovered addict still remembers that first super-high, and Paul remembered the rush from crushing skulls. That's a recipe for repression.
@29 Think of the 12 steps, and how the recovering addict must apologize for their actions. Psychopaths may have guilt, just not necessarily at the time they are acting psychopathic. You may be thinking of sociopaths, like Tony Perkins.
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PS: The concept of "homosexuals" as a distinct class of *people* is quite a modern one, dating only back as far as the 19th century. The Greeks and Romans knew all about homosexual ACTS, but they never considered it a fundamental aspect of a person's identity. To our modern eyes an awful lot of ancient Greeks seem "situationally gay," like straight prison inmates who do each other because no women are available. You could marry a woman and still have tons of boys on the side (along with female concubines, prostitutes, etc.) and as long as this extracurricular activity didn't interfere with your "husbandly duties" (I.e. producing an heir), no one officially cared much.
34
In his "Symposium," Plato makes the case that man-on-man love is more pure and noble than man-on-woman love - because you marry a woman to produce children, carry on the family name, etc., but if you love a man it's all just about your feelings for each other. Marriage, at the time, was much more of a business or political arrangement than anything romantic. There is ample evidence of medieval "spirit marriages" between two men; I have no doubt in my mind there were similar arrangements made in Greece, which was overall quite nonchalant about the idea of gay sex in and of itself.
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@28 They would've been startled by cars, jets, and cell phones, too. What's your point?
Explain your insight that there were no gays in the ancient world. This is interesting. Are you saying there weren't homosexuals outside of certain institutions? Or that they were viewed differently?
Explain your insight that there were no gays in the ancient world. This is interesting. Are you saying there weren't homosexuals outside of certain institutions? Or that they were viewed differently?
32
I've always found the phrase "I'll pray for you" as ranging from dismissive to fuck you most of the it is stated. And, I say most of the time, because there are some people who find a huge amount of psychological comfort from being told that they are being prayed for. So the phrase can be affirming and encouraging.
My guess is that the following verse is or is part of his inspiration.
Matthew 5:43-45
New International Version (NIV)
Love for Enemies
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[a] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
Plus, one never should forget that evil intentions often come wrapped in piety and religious doctrine.
My guess is that the following verse is or is part of his inspiration.
Matthew 5:43-45
New International Version (NIV)
Love for Enemies
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[a] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
Plus, one never should forget that evil intentions often come wrapped in piety and religious doctrine.
31
The religious in this comment thread saying "I'll pray for you..." is hilarious.
All they see is someone who doesn't follow their cult and of course the only fix is to pray for them - which is sheer hubris.
Asking an all knowing entity for help shows just how egotistical these people are - you don't ask an all knowing being for help. If he wanted to, he would - he already knows it. Your special pleading is quite like an 8 y/o asking god for a new bike, or 'making a deal with god'.
It's special type of crazy to believe in 'special pleading' prayers.
All they see is someone who doesn't follow their cult and of course the only fix is to pray for them - which is sheer hubris.
Asking an all knowing entity for help shows just how egotistical these people are - you don't ask an all knowing being for help. If he wanted to, he would - he already knows it. Your special pleading is quite like an 8 y/o asking god for a new bike, or 'making a deal with god'.
It's special type of crazy to believe in 'special pleading' prayers.
30
The religious in this comment thread saying "I'll pray for you..." is hilarious.
All they see is someone who doesn't follow their cult and of course the only fix is to pray for them - which is sheer hubris.
Asking an all knowing entity for help shows just how egotistical these people are - you don't ask an all knowing being for help. If he wanted to, he would - he already knows it. Your special pleading is quite like an 8 y/o asking god for a new bike, or 'making a deal with god'.
It's special type of crazy to believe in 'special pleading' prayers.
All they see is someone who doesn't follow their cult and of course the only fix is to pray for them - which is sheer hubris.
Asking an all knowing entity for help shows just how egotistical these people are - you don't ask an all knowing being for help. If he wanted to, he would - he already knows it. Your special pleading is quite like an 8 y/o asking god for a new bike, or 'making a deal with god'.
It's special type of crazy to believe in 'special pleading' prayers.
29
@9 I thought the basis of psychopathy is the lack of guilt. So I find it far more plausible that he was gay than that he was psychopathic.
While it is impossible to diagnose him two-thousand years later, it is possible for us to understand the most important aspect of his personality: he was a big fucking jackass.
While it is impossible to diagnose him two-thousand years later, it is possible for us to understand the most important aspect of his personality: he was a big fucking jackass.
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@22 I had a grandmother from Kentucky, and generally speaking, "Bless his heart" was typically the introduction to something critical (or often just plain mean, especially among some of the gay southerners I've known). It's basically a throwaway line that says, "I don't like whatever I'm about to criticize about this person, but he's still a friend." So I don't know if Perkins qualifies, unless you're being particularly genteel.
It's worth pointing out that there have been lots of conversions on the road to Damascus on this issue. It's just that they all convert to our position.
That being said, I've never thought it was very useful to discuss homosexuality outside of its historical context. Talking about Paul being "gay," in the modern sense, is meaningless. No-one in the ancient world was (although there were plenty of institutions that involved homosexuality or bisexuality). The evidence suggests that Greeks and Romans, to say nothing of Jews, probably would have been startled by the idea of same-sex marriage as an equivalent substitute for opposite-sex marriage.
It's worth pointing out that there have been lots of conversions on the road to Damascus on this issue. It's just that they all convert to our position.
That being said, I've never thought it was very useful to discuss homosexuality outside of its historical context. Talking about Paul being "gay," in the modern sense, is meaningless. No-one in the ancient world was (although there were plenty of institutions that involved homosexuality or bisexuality). The evidence suggests that Greeks and Romans, to say nothing of Jews, probably would have been startled by the idea of same-sex marriage as an equivalent substitute for opposite-sex marriage.
27
I wouldn't call considering the idea Paul was a closet case anymore revisionary than the idea that he was a violent psychopath drowning in guilt. Still, no matter what excuse you attribute to him he was pretty much a dick. And the fact his writings are basically considered the heart of some Christian beliefs speaks volumes. Though I have to say the Naked Archeologist still has me half way convinced he was a Roman mole.
@9 I kind of see your point here, but in general it's kind of silly to call it "revisionism" every time someone considers some historical figure might have been gay when the suppression/destruction of such information has been practised for thousands of years. The truth is we'll never know for sure, but there's a good chance some pretty big historical figures were gay and we're just starting to admit it.
@9 I kind of see your point here, but in general it's kind of silly to call it "revisionism" every time someone considers some historical figure might have been gay when the suppression/destruction of such information has been practised for thousands of years. The truth is we'll never know for sure, but there's a good chance some pretty big historical figures were gay and we're just starting to admit it.
26
Of course we should pray for Mr. Savage and for Mr. Perkins as well. Wish them good health, wisdom and clear judgment. There's no one who can't use more of those.
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@23 It looks easier than I had always thought it would be.
I thought one would need lions, an arena, and a thousand soldiers to hunt the Christians down. Apparently all you've got to do now is quote scripture.
I thought one would need lions, an arena, and a thousand soldiers to hunt the Christians down. Apparently all you've got to do now is quote scripture.
24
The secret is scheduling. Dan fits his daily quota of Christian persecuting into the midmorning lull, between breaking up happy marriages by encouraging cheating (8-10am) and seducing unwary pre-teens into choosing gayness (12-3pm).
23
Isn't it very very time consuming to persecute Christians? Dan you are a master of time management!
22
"Everyone knows, 'I'll pray for you,' is how Baptists say 'Fuck you."
The corollary to this of course is that "Bless his heart" is southern code for "that boy is a fucking witless jackwad." So understand when I say of Tony Perkins: "I'll pray for him, bless is heart", I really, really mean it.
The corollary to this of course is that "Bless his heart" is southern code for "that boy is a fucking witless jackwad." So understand when I say of Tony Perkins: "I'll pray for him, bless is heart", I really, really mean it.
20
When you call my name, it's like a little prayer.
I'm down on my knees. I wanna take you there.
In the midnight hour, I can feel your power.
Just like a prayer, you know I'll take you there.
I'm down on my knees. I wanna take you there.
In the midnight hour, I can feel your power.
Just like a prayer, you know I'll take you there.
19
Oh, and Tony Perkins calls the state I live in, Louisiana, home. Every time one of the local stations gives him free air time, I send e-mails. And when one of those stations gave him free airtime in the form of PSAs plugging a father-daughter purity ball, I stopped watching and told the station why.
18
Oh my god oh my god oh my GOD!!!!!! Dan used me to smack around Tony Perkins! I am so flattered!
Signed Big Dorky Fan Girl
Signed Big Dorky Fan Girl
17
I will pray that both Dan and Tony have a Happy Travolta with the consenting partner of their choice.
16
I pray for you Dan. I pray that you and your husband and child will have a long and happy life together. I give thanks for you starting the It Gets Better project and the advice you have given hundreds of young people over the years, and I pray that one day everyone who follows Christ can one day have as much humanity and compassion as you show on a regular basis.
(P.S. For the record, my pastor loves you. He thought the redefinition of "Santorum" was inspired, and calls himself a "recovering homophobe" due in part to you.)
(P.S. For the record, my pastor loves you. He thought the redefinition of "Santorum" was inspired, and calls himself a "recovering homophobe" due in part to you.)
13
I'm going to make a porn in YOUR name Dan Savage! Praise the Dildo and pass the lube in Dan Savages' slutty name!!!
11
Speaking of closet cases, the fervent way Perkins phrased that plea was more than a little homoerotic. If it was roleplay rather than real life, it would be pretty hot. But with him so unaware of his own longings, it is more that Perkins becomes an object of pity.
I'm starting to think that all male religious zealots become that way to repress their sexuality, urges that they consider deviant and shameful. Unless the religion is a directly sexual one like New Age tantra or some forms of paganism.
I'm starting to think that all male religious zealots become that way to repress their sexuality, urges that they consider deviant and shameful. Unless the religion is a directly sexual one like New Age tantra or some forms of paganism.
10
Speaking of closet cases, the fervent way Perkins phrased that plea was more than a little homoerotic. If it was roleplay rather than real life, it would be pretty hot.
9
Another interpretation of Paul's mindset is that he was a violent psychopath, constantly fighting recidivism. A Road to Damascus experience is not uncommon among criminals, but the conversion is often still a lifelong battle against personal demons. It was a world full of violence with little justification, where almost everyone had direct knowledge of slaughter. Internal conflict, caused by the guilt of a violent past, is a better explanation for Paul than 21st century "everyone was gay" revisionism.
7
Marcus has become a Swiss citizen, along with his creepy wife.
http://blog.sfgate.com/hottopics/2012/05…
@3
Speaking of non-jackass Christians, the head of the North Carolina NAACP is a clergyman who's part of a group of about a hundred black preachers in the state who stood up against that marriage ban amendment. He gave a fiery sermon the other day in support of marriage equality.
http://blog.sfgate.com/hottopics/2012/05…
@3
Speaking of non-jackass Christians, the head of the North Carolina NAACP is a clergyman who's part of a group of about a hundred black preachers in the state who stood up against that marriage ban amendment. He gave a fiery sermon the other day in support of marriage equality.
3
I'm praying for you too, Dan. I pray that even though you don't believe in all that God stuff, he will help you keep your head up and keep up the good fight against bigotry. I also pray that someday you will meet enough non-jackass Christians to balance out the ones who keep seeking you out to preach at you.
1
That's hardly fair - if people like Tony Perkins got laid just a little more often or if their sexual experience had been just a LITTLE more joyful, they would never become these hateful discrimination machines that they are. Maybe it's time for some brave volunteer to go forth into the enemy camp and give Mr. Perkins his very own sexual "Saul of Tarsus" experience.
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