Savage Love Podcast Comments
Savage Love Episode 291
1
Hey so a guy called in response to the girl calling in about guys not wanting to date her because they had sex on the first date. He made a valid point that there are lots of guys who don't want to have sex on the first date. HOWEVER in her situation it wasn't that guys were going on dates and declining her invitation to come back and have sex with her on the date. They were actually having sex with her and then not calling her back. Obviously there could be more going on, but no one made them have sex with her. It just seemed like there was some slut shaming going on there, when in reality the men could have been declining on the sex if they didn't want it!
2
Dan, gay marriage is different than interracial marriage because sex/gender/sexuality are not protected categories in the US constitution, but race is. The 14th Amendment extends the protections of the constitution to the states as well, so states could not (legally) discriminate on the basis of race, but since sex/gender/sexuality are not protected, states can still discriminate on that basis. I don't think this is okay, but it is legally the only position Obama can take. He could have phrased it more provocatively, like, "I recognize that legally states can still discriminate against gay people, though I don't think they should," though that would probably unleash a hellstorm in the political media.
3
Hey, alcoholic guy, can you be around alcohol and not drink it? Because that's dead sexy--if you actually like to be around drinkers drinking. And watch them drinking. And be solicitous and make sure they have a drink when they want one. But never touch it yourself. Because you're strong, strong, strong and have total control and can resist endlessly etc. etc. etc. I could go on for hours. Mine, you can leave half a six pack of beer in his fridge and come back a week later and the three beers are still in his fridge when you come over for gumbo. And it is hot. I mean, not the beer. The gumbo is hot, he is hot, and the situation is hot. But the beer at his house is one degree below ice. You can make this work for you. I've seen it done.
4
@2 No.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_Prote…
For example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Craig_v._Bo…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_Prote…
For example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Craig_v._Bo…
5
For the opposite-married bisexual dad wanting to come out casually, just make comments that you find certain male actors or passersby attractive or good-looking or whatever.
6
I'd love to do all I could to help support Obama in this next election! As a straight identified female... I'm fully in support. I have a lot of gay friends, my Aunt and her partner were married soon after same sex marriage became legal in Canada. But being a Canadian ...I don't have a lot of influence. But Obama's announcement had a big effect on us here in Canada as well. We were excited to finally hear him say it!
7
For the alcoholic caller - I know that in AA you are encouraged to say you are an alcoholic forever because its something you have to deal with for always. BUT, I think most people still recognize the term "recovering alcoholic". If I someone said to me "I'm an alcoholic" I would first think they still drink. You could say "I'm an alcoholic" but qualify it with "I've been sober for 2 years" or whatever if you aren't comfortable with the term "recovering alcoholic" which is still the common vernacular for "I don't drink anymore ever".
8
@cousine this is the alcoholic guy. Yah, I'm totally a voyeur when it comes to alcohol. I go to bars all the time, but just don't drink. Instead, I masterbate under the table while watching my friends take sips. Gotta have some fun...
9
@Haleva Yah, I think you're right. I guess I've been in that world for such a long time now that the idea "Once an alcoholic, Always an alcoholic" is stuck in my head. So, to me, I'm an alcoholic. I think my issue comes from the fact that I live my life as an open book and secretly love awkward encounters. So when I say, "I'm an alcoholic" to a group of people I don't care about, the silence makes me go "Yah I just blew your fucking mind...you don't know what to say do you?" But in a date scenario, I would like to subdue that a bit.
10
@Rexy yeah if you want to confront people's expectations and perceptions, great. But it doesn't sound like this guy does. I think that the phrase needs a sentence of explanation. To those of us lucky enough to not have had to face alcoholism close up, the terminology is different. A lot of terms from AA have filtered out in to pop-psy but we often use them wrongly.
11
Dan and others, I want more practical tips on coming out as bi when you're in an opposite sex marriage. I did come out as bi to immediate family and friends in college (but I think a lot of them assume now that because I've only been with men since and am married to one, that it was a phase). And I think a lot of people who've known me for a while even as a married woman wouldn't be surprised because I do comment on women being attractive (but that's a little hard to make clear what you're saying and not sound lecherous). But people who know me casually and with whom these topics never come up don't know--it feels like the "I'm an alcoholic" kind of statement to shoehorn into our interactions. My state is voting on marriage equality so I'm planning on coming out on Facebook close to election in case that shakes up anyone's opinions. But I'm struggling to figure out how to do it...
12
RexySaurus, what advice does your sponsor give you on this? Have you brought it up at a meeting? God knows you're not the first alcoholic to have this problem - find out what other people have tried that's worked.
My husband used to say something like "Not today" or "this is fine for now" when he didn't want to go into the whole spiel when someone asked him why he wasn't drinking. And there's always the option of hanging out with people with better manners, who'd never ask such a personal question.
And, cousine? Maybe it's just the way you worded your comment, but sounds like you're daring him to drink. Might just blow up in your faces, that game.
My husband used to say something like "Not today" or "this is fine for now" when he didn't want to go into the whole spiel when someone asked him why he wasn't drinking. And there's always the option of hanging out with people with better manners, who'd never ask such a personal question.
And, cousine? Maybe it's just the way you worded your comment, but sounds like you're daring him to drink. Might just blow up in your faces, that game.
13
I think if you're fucking on the first date, and consistently not getting second dates with guys, there's probably more than slut-shaming going on. Unless you get "hey, you're a slut and I don't date sluts!" (or words to that effect) from most of them, I think it's lazy to ascribe the problem to that.
I have had first-date sex with people who I ended up in long relationships with, and I have had first-date sex with people, who I would have chewed a limb off to get away from -- because the wrecked personality or craziness started leaching through the veneer. I don't think I'm the anomaly.
Check yourself for crazy (or maybe just acquired-taste) behavior before you assume every one of all these guys you're banging is some kind of sex-negative creep. If you're sure your behavior is not the problem, take a long look at the kind of guys you're dating, because if it really is them slut-shaming you, then you seem to be carefully, if unwittingly, selecting a pretty specific minority of the male population.
I have had first-date sex with people who I ended up in long relationships with, and I have had first-date sex with people, who I would have chewed a limb off to get away from -- because the wrecked personality or craziness started leaching through the veneer. I don't think I'm the anomaly.
Check yourself for crazy (or maybe just acquired-taste) behavior before you assume every one of all these guys you're banging is some kind of sex-negative creep. If you're sure your behavior is not the problem, take a long look at the kind of guys you're dating, because if it really is them slut-shaming you, then you seem to be carefully, if unwittingly, selecting a pretty specific minority of the male population.
14
omg Dan, way to follow up the recovering alcoholic's call by saying "God, I love alcohol!" Hahahaha! that was mean! And I want to say THANK YOU SO MUCH to the girl with the cute voice at the end of the podcast who called in to support the first date sex girl by telling her about her relationship with a guy she hooked up with. That gave me hope too! So thanks, mama. I'll add to that, I have a friend who's boyfriend of over a year was a drunken hookup at a friend's house and they've been together ever since.
15
Hi Dan, just wanted to thank you for doing this podcast-- listening to these all night long keeps me up and (at times) laughing during all-nighters-- has definitely helped my college years along. Thanks! :D
16
Hey, alcoholic guy... I'm also gay and almost a year and half sober. I start out with "I don't drink" when it comes up, and then usually the questions start. I have no problems being honest as it goes from there. (Much like Dan said...) That said, I totally feel your pain. It feels like the whole gay world revolves around drinking and it clearly makes some people uncomfortable to drink around me now, no matter how many times I say things like "it's okay" or "it doesn't bother me." (It really DOESN'T bother me if a date or friend drinks, I just know it's something I can't do anymore.) Good luck -- hopefully you'll find another sober person or someone who doesn't drink much. I think you said you were in NYC -- I'm sure your gay AA potential dating pool is much more promising than mine here in Portland...
17
Hi alcoholic guy. I am not an alcoholic but can empathize in a way. I was raised as a Mormon, which as you may or may not know, is a religion that forbids alcohol. I am no longer a practicing Mormon, but I do try to hold on to the healthy habits I was taught in that faith, which means that I don't drink still, not for any theological reason anymore, it's just my choice. I go out with friends to bars all the time, and I have a great time just drinking coke. It works out great for them too because they know they have a designated driver around if things get too crazy. When I meet someone new the alcohol subject can still be weird though. As a gay man, I don't know if admitting I'm a Mormon is more or less awkward than admitting alcoholism, but I've had some strong reactions when I reveal the reason why I don't drink. I've also had some positive reactions which have helped me identify my real friends. In general, I've learned not to take offense, to give explanations only when warranted, and in just be myself. I don't worry about coming out as a Mormon any more that I do as coming out as gay. I don't know if being an alcoholic is part of your identity as being gay or being Mormon are part of mine, but if that's the case, I think that as you become more and more comfortable with that part of who you are, the easier it will be for you to handle these situations. Good luck!
18
Dan, thanks so much for your advice to my question this week, and for all the advice I've gleaned from you over the years!
I agree that closure is something you give yourself and not something that hinges on another person -- but deciding to have closure is easier said than done. I've grown up to interpret not hearing from someone as miscommunication, so I kept feeling strung along. I think this experience honed my ear for that "radio silence." If this happens again, hopefully I can more clearly see it as a rejection and sign to move on.
In a perfect world, he would have called to say goodbye and good luck, but I agree that if I had received an honest explanation, it likely would have been hurtful.
Update: After calling you, I did email the guy and asked for an explanation. He gave me a wishy-washy email back and said he would call. Meanwhile, I started dating other people. Over a week later, he left a message to "catch up." Against my friends' advice, I called back and left yet another message. That was several days ago, and given the upteenth round of silence and your advice, I have really shut the book on this one!
I agree that closure is something you give yourself and not something that hinges on another person -- but deciding to have closure is easier said than done. I've grown up to interpret not hearing from someone as miscommunication, so I kept feeling strung along. I think this experience honed my ear for that "radio silence." If this happens again, hopefully I can more clearly see it as a rejection and sign to move on.
In a perfect world, he would have called to say goodbye and good luck, but I agree that if I had received an honest explanation, it likely would have been hurtful.
Update: After calling you, I did email the guy and asked for an explanation. He gave me a wishy-washy email back and said he would call. Meanwhile, I started dating other people. Over a week later, he left a message to "catch up." Against my friends' advice, I called back and left yet another message. That was several days ago, and given the upteenth round of silence and your advice, I have really shut the book on this one!
20
In regards to the lady whose husband had been unfaithful. My boyfriend and I went through something similar, and I stuck it out and stayed. It hasn't always been easy, but over all, I am very glad I did. Thanks Dan, for praising this strong woman for staying in her relationship and weathering the storm. So much of your advice helped me get through the hard times. Keep up the great work.
21
Dan, I thought you came down rather hard on the bi guy who was just looking for advice about how to come out. Ironically, I think he would find better advice in the good answer you gave to the previous caller, the alcoholic. When you "come out" (as gay, as alcoholic, whatever), people will very much take their cues from the way you present it. If you say "I... am... a bisexual", in a somber, confessional tone, people will react accordingly. And if you drop that unexpectedly into the middle of a lighter conversation, it will definitely be awkward. The trick is to find ways to come out in a totally "by the way" manner, just by being real about your life. Even if the bi guy with an opposite-sex spouse doesn't have any of his old boyfriends on hand, aren't there at least stories and memories that come up now and then? "Oh, your son is applying to Swarthmore? I once dated a guy who went there. He really liked it..." Ta da! You just came out, but you did it in a way that just dropped it into conversation like the totally normal thing that it ought to be treated as. If you treat it as a totally normal by-the-way fact about you, rather than a somber pronouncement, then the people around you will pick up on your lead and learn to treat it that way too.
22
@ bi & married | While I understand the merits behind the thought that it is important, to the LGBT community, for everyone to be out, an aspect that should not go without consideration is how comfortable you personally feel about coming out. You should only come out when you feel comfortable doing so. For most of us, as you will probably already know as a bi guy, coming out is a process. We have to come out to ourselves, figure out who is cool to come out to in our lives, come out to those people, deal with their reactions, and on and on. It is something highly personal, that can lead to transformative shifts in relationships, so when we make the decision to come out, we have to be personally prepared. From what you said, it sounds like you are out to your wife, but you guys may not be out to your whole family. And you don't have to be -- until you are ready. Life will let you know when that is. Instinct will let you know when that is. If your instincts have you worried about coming out, or feeling like it's not going to be comfortable, or leave you feeling awkward & ashamed, don't do it. There will likely be a time, as there is for a lot of us, where the thought of coming out does not seem so scary. For some, it was likely when Obama supported gay marriage. Maybe for you, it will be when marriage equity becomes a thing of the present. Point is, you need to come out when you are ready, so that you are mentally prepared for what comes after: "I'm bi." Part of the impression Dan's response left me with is: "You should come out for the community, period." The piece, that might have been said, but I think I missed, was "Coming out for the community is cool, noble and all...but the most important thing is to come out when you feel comfortable." If you do that, you'll feel comfortable, and if others base their reaction on how you feel, they'll be more comfortable. And if you are in a good place when you come out, and you do get a negative reaction, you'll be in a better place to deal with it, than if you're feeling awkward, and weird about it...and now nervous because someone is tripping because you've eaten pussy & sucked dick. Moral of the story: Don't just come out for the community, come out for yourself - when you are ready, and things will likely fare better. Signed, a brotha who comes out when he is ready
More...
23
@13
Isn't it slightly wishful thinking to say that the men who slut-shame for a minority of the population? Of course I don't have statistics but a lot, probably most, men and women both have conscious or subconscious hang-ups about slutty or loose people (particularly women).
Isn't it slightly wishful thinking to say that the men who slut-shame for a minority of the population? Of course I don't have statistics but a lot, probably most, men and women both have conscious or subconscious hang-ups about slutty or loose people (particularly women).
24
Drake Law School hosted a few talks in 2010 close to the one-year anniversary of the Iowa Supreme Court's marriage equality decision, Varnum. To listen to them, go to http://www.law.drake.edu/podcasts/public…
and scroll down to the bottom. Distinguished Lecture Series: Same-Sex Marriage, Labels, and Social Meaning by Michael Dorf, Robert S. Stevens Professor of Law at Cornell Law School is an hour. Constitutional Law Symposium: The Same-Sex Marriage Divide is 3 1/2 hours, but even if you don't want to listen to the whole thing, I found the first talk by Maggie Gallagher, President of the Institute for Marriage and Public Policy actually fascinating. I support marriage equality - and the latest Des Moines Register Poll showed that after three years of living with marriage equality a slight majority of Iowans do now too, but I found it interesting to hear what the other side had to say in a straight forward way. Of course speakers from all sides were invited if you want to listen to the whole 3 1/2 hours.
and scroll down to the bottom. Distinguished Lecture Series: Same-Sex Marriage, Labels, and Social Meaning by Michael Dorf, Robert S. Stevens Professor of Law at Cornell Law School is an hour. Constitutional Law Symposium: The Same-Sex Marriage Divide is 3 1/2 hours, but even if you don't want to listen to the whole thing, I found the first talk by Maggie Gallagher, President of the Institute for Marriage and Public Policy actually fascinating. I support marriage equality - and the latest Des Moines Register Poll showed that after three years of living with marriage equality a slight majority of Iowans do now too, but I found it interesting to hear what the other side had to say in a straight forward way. Of course speakers from all sides were invited if you want to listen to the whole 3 1/2 hours.
25
Drake Law School hosted a few talks in 2010 close to the one-year anniversary of the Iowa Supreme Court's marriage equality decision, Varnum. To listen to them, go to http://www.law.drake.edu/podcasts/public…
and scroll down to the bottom. Distinguished Lecture Series: Same-Sex Marriage, Labels, and Social Meaning by Michael Dorf, Robert S. Stevens Professor of Law at Cornell Law School is an hour. Constitutional Law Symposium: The Same-Sex Marriage Divide is 3 1/2 hours, but even if you don't want to listen to the whole thing, I found the first talk by Maggie Gallagher, President of the Institute for Marriage and Public Policy actually fascinating. I support marriage equality - and the latest Des Moines Register Poll showed that after three years of living with marriage equality a slight majority of Iowans do now too, but I found it interesting to hear what the other side had to say in a straight forward way. Of course speakers from all sides were invited if you want to listen to the whole 3 1/2 hours.
and scroll down to the bottom. Distinguished Lecture Series: Same-Sex Marriage, Labels, and Social Meaning by Michael Dorf, Robert S. Stevens Professor of Law at Cornell Law School is an hour. Constitutional Law Symposium: The Same-Sex Marriage Divide is 3 1/2 hours, but even if you don't want to listen to the whole thing, I found the first talk by Maggie Gallagher, President of the Institute for Marriage and Public Policy actually fascinating. I support marriage equality - and the latest Des Moines Register Poll showed that after three years of living with marriage equality a slight majority of Iowans do now too, but I found it interesting to hear what the other side had to say in a straight forward way. Of course speakers from all sides were invited if you want to listen to the whole 3 1/2 hours.
26
Drake Law School hosted a few talks in 2010 close to the one-year anniversary of the Iowa Supreme Court's marriage equality decision, Varnum. To listen to them, go to http://www.law.drake.edu/podcasts/public…
and scroll down to the bottom. Distinguished Lecture Series: Same-Sex Marriage, Labels, and Social Meaning by Michael Dorf, Robert S. Stevens Professor of Law at Cornell Law School is an hour. Constitutional Law Symposium: The Same-Sex Marriage Divide is 3 1/2 hours, but even if you don't want to listen to the whole thing, I found the first talk by Maggie Gallagher, President of the Institute for Marriage and Public Policy actually fascinating. I support marriage equality - and the latest Des Moines Register Poll showed that after three years of living with marriage equality a slight majority of Iowans do now too, but I found it interesting to hear what the other side had to say in a straight forward way. Of course speakers from all sides were invited if you want to listen to the whole 3 1/2 hours.
and scroll down to the bottom. Distinguished Lecture Series: Same-Sex Marriage, Labels, and Social Meaning by Michael Dorf, Robert S. Stevens Professor of Law at Cornell Law School is an hour. Constitutional Law Symposium: The Same-Sex Marriage Divide is 3 1/2 hours, but even if you don't want to listen to the whole thing, I found the first talk by Maggie Gallagher, President of the Institute for Marriage and Public Policy actually fascinating. I support marriage equality - and the latest Des Moines Register Poll showed that after three years of living with marriage equality a slight majority of Iowans do now too, but I found it interesting to hear what the other side had to say in a straight forward way. Of course speakers from all sides were invited if you want to listen to the whole 3 1/2 hours.
27
Drake Law School hosted a few talks in 2010 close to the one-year anniversary of the Iowa Supreme Court's marriage equality decision, Varnum. To listen to them, go to http://www.law.drake.edu/podcasts/public…
and scroll down to the bottom. Distinguished Lecture Series: Same-Sex Marriage, Labels, and Social Meaning by Michael Dorf, Robert S. Stevens Professor of Law at Cornell Law School is an hour. Constitutional Law Symposium: The Same-Sex Marriage Divide is 3 1/2 hours, but even if you don't want to listen to the whole thing, I found the first talk by Maggie Gallagher, President of the Institute for Marriage and Public Policy actually fascinating. I support marriage equality - and the latest Des Moines Register Poll showed that after three years of living with marriage equality a slight majority of Iowans do now too, but I found it interesting to hear what the other side had to say in a straight forward way. Of course speakers from all sides were invited if you want to listen to the whole 3 1/2 hours.
and scroll down to the bottom. Distinguished Lecture Series: Same-Sex Marriage, Labels, and Social Meaning by Michael Dorf, Robert S. Stevens Professor of Law at Cornell Law School is an hour. Constitutional Law Symposium: The Same-Sex Marriage Divide is 3 1/2 hours, but even if you don't want to listen to the whole thing, I found the first talk by Maggie Gallagher, President of the Institute for Marriage and Public Policy actually fascinating. I support marriage equality - and the latest Des Moines Register Poll showed that after three years of living with marriage equality a slight majority of Iowans do now too, but I found it interesting to hear what the other side had to say in a straight forward way. Of course speakers from all sides were invited if you want to listen to the whole 3 1/2 hours.
We're sorry, but commenting won't be available while we switch over to the new MAGNUM version of the Lovecast. Your comments will be back up tomorrow- please come back and let us know what you think!
Comments (27) RSS