Slog Comments
The Car As a Cell Phone
1
I'm still not convinced the batteries won't turn out to be a worse environmental problem than the exhaust, but at least it reduces traffic-related air pollution and the need to buy/drill for oil.
2
Yes, we should all take public transportation! I love taking an extra 3 hours to get to work. The risk of getting stabbed by the crazy hobo sitting next to me is just a bonus!
3
Cars can be seen as ridiculously excessive. On Saturday I was driving and thinking...everywhere I go, my trunk goes. Yet, 99% of the time I have nothing in my trunk.
Then again, if it takes me 5 minutes to drive to QFC and 20 minutes to bicycle, which am I going to do when I buy ice cream on a summery day?
Or should I not buy a tub of ice cream and bicycle to U-Top-It frozen yogurt in Covington which would be doubly healthy?
And again, what about Straight White Guys..those who buy electric cars and ride bicycles. Shouldn't chicks force us into bed because of these things, and for knowing more than one web-based computer language?
And what about those guys who ride around on motorcycles with a little dog in a plastic crate tied down with bungee cords on the back? No matter how hard they try, they'll never get laid.
5
"no cars" is only the answer if the density of the city continues to escalate. Lower impact mobility solutions are the answer when density is lower and public transit solutions are not available.
Seattle Council has set the City on a trajectory of 50% more population. They have made the no car choice for many of the citizens.
But parts of Seattle, e.g. wealthy lakeside communities, Magnolia, etc will continue to need and use cars.
So will the hundreds of thousands that commute daily into the City along I-5 and I-90...
Seattle Council has set the City on a trajectory of 50% more population. They have made the no car choice for many of the citizens.
But parts of Seattle, e.g. wealthy lakeside communities, Magnolia, etc will continue to need and use cars.
So will the hundreds of thousands that commute daily into the City along I-5 and I-90...
6
Fun fact: during a power failure a Volt can provide several days worth of power for charging cell ohones or other USB devices. With a 12v-120v inverter, one could even power some household appliances if needed.
Bailo, you make a good point, in agreement with Charles. Care are wasteful. Bike more, drive less.
But dont get a motorcycle with a dog as an accessory. Get a sportbike. Those guys get laid. A lot.
Bailo, you make a good point, in agreement with Charles. Care are wasteful. Bike more, drive less.
But dont get a motorcycle with a dog as an accessory. Get a sportbike. Those guys get laid. A lot.
7
@1re: batteries. The City's "carbon neutral" plan is a joke. It does not look at externalized carbon emissions. In fact, all that daily traffic, clogging our the freeways and bridges to get to those downtown office towers - don't count it. Building those giant towers? Don't count it. Concrete or millions of truck trips to haul dirt for the DBT? Don't count it. All the concrete into Light Rail? don't count it. All of the iPods and other products we buy? Don't count it.
Just climb back into your carbon neutral apodment, and don't worry about reality as we head towards our carbon neutral city of the future.
Just climb back into your carbon neutral apodment, and don't worry about reality as we head towards our carbon neutral city of the future.
10
Good luck to you if you wind up in the ER with a heart attack in the middle of the night waiting for the cardiology on-call team to take the bus to the hospital.
14
@9, as long as outlying cities like Bothell and Redmond continue to entice office building and retail development to speculative developers who fill in swamps and lease the space to international megacorps who don't give a fuck about their employees commute times, we will continue to need to commute from non-dense housing to non-dense job sites.
I live in the city, but have to commute to the burbs. My work is only about 30% of my transportation time, the rest of it being evening and social hours in the city. Moving to the burbs would INCREASE how much I drive because I'd start driving for groceries and basic shopping (walk now), drive into the city for clubbing (drive and park, then cab now), and drive to friends (mix of driving and carpooling now).
Seattle has a great general office jobs in all those towers, but MSFT, Nintendo, T-mobile, ATT are all eastside low density offices and huge employers. Boeing and other manufacturers are all south and north. Our freeways are jammed in all directions at almost all hours, not into the city in the AM/out of the city at night. The no-cars, live where you work mantra is foolish for 80% of the people who make living income wages and have a life.
I live in the city, but have to commute to the burbs. My work is only about 30% of my transportation time, the rest of it being evening and social hours in the city. Moving to the burbs would INCREASE how much I drive because I'd start driving for groceries and basic shopping (walk now), drive into the city for clubbing (drive and park, then cab now), and drive to friends (mix of driving and carpooling now).
Seattle has a great general office jobs in all those towers, but MSFT, Nintendo, T-mobile, ATT are all eastside low density offices and huge employers. Boeing and other manufacturers are all south and north. Our freeways are jammed in all directions at almost all hours, not into the city in the AM/out of the city at night. The no-cars, live where you work mantra is foolish for 80% of the people who make living income wages and have a life.
15
In order for people to switch from cars to public transportation, you have to make public transportation more attractive to them than driving solo.
So far, I've only seen that in one place: Manhattan (and a tiny bit of Brooklyn... but not the rest of NYC).
It has to be more than "if you build it, they will come" it also has to be "we built it, and it's more accessible, convenient, and cheap than driving."
So far, I've only seen that in one place: Manhattan (and a tiny bit of Brooklyn... but not the rest of NYC).
It has to be more than "if you build it, they will come" it also has to be "we built it, and it's more accessible, convenient, and cheap than driving."
16
@10 Yes. You've found one of the examples where a small vehicle is necessary in a city. Delivery cars and trucks also make sense (for longer trips - I love the Specialties hand-carts wheeling around downtown). The rest is luxury.
17
@10
No one is suggesting that all cars be banned forever. Obviously, some people have an obvious need for their personal automobiles. But those people are in the minority.
No one is suggesting that all cars be banned forever. Obviously, some people have an obvious need for their personal automobiles. But those people are in the minority.
18
All right, all right. @ 12 and 14, you're forcing me to reveal that I'm bein facetious @ 9. Mostly because @2 was being silly (buses from the exurbs, as @2 describes, won't have crazy hobos on them because they don't live out in the sticks.
FWIW, my wife has to drive to work because it's 25 miles away and it would require three transfers (including a private shuttle) to go there via public transportation. As of now, she doesn't believe she'll work there for years, so there's no reason to consider uprooting our family for it. But we would if this was going to be where she wants to stay.
FWIW, my wife has to drive to work because it's 25 miles away and it would require three transfers (including a private shuttle) to go there via public transportation. As of now, she doesn't believe she'll work there for years, so there's no reason to consider uprooting our family for it. But we would if this was going to be where she wants to stay.
19
Always live close to where you work, or acceptably close to a public transit option.
If that means renting because you have to stay mobile, rent. As a homeowner having watched most of my friends transition from renting to owning, I can confidently state that the reality of the costs of home ownership always greatly exceed those of renting, despite what realtors will try to tell you.
If that means renting because you have to stay mobile, rent. As a homeowner having watched most of my friends transition from renting to owning, I can confidently state that the reality of the costs of home ownership always greatly exceed those of renting, despite what realtors will try to tell you.
21
#13, What does a temp do, stay at the holiday inn until the assignment ends?
#14, tell me about it (as one who worked in the burbs for a few years). The region would have to make a serious commitment to expanding right of way public transit to solve the dilemma for a lot of people, which won't happen.
#15, more specifically, I suspect Mass Transit has to be more widespread and run regularly--not every 40 mins or an hour. More like 10-15 minutes, which won't happen if it means simply committing to buses that run on roads with cars. Also Queens is pretty accessible for mass transit--Astoria, LIC, Flushing-CitiField
#14, tell me about it (as one who worked in the burbs for a few years). The region would have to make a serious commitment to expanding right of way public transit to solve the dilemma for a lot of people, which won't happen.
#15, more specifically, I suspect Mass Transit has to be more widespread and run regularly--not every 40 mins or an hour. More like 10-15 minutes, which won't happen if it means simply committing to buses that run on roads with cars. Also Queens is pretty accessible for mass transit--Astoria, LIC, Flushing-CitiField
23
I don't understand why it is "progressive" to demand that people be forced to travel only where the government wants them to go, and to travel only when the government wants them to travel.
24
And isn't it interesting to see just how hostile The Stranger and its readers are to the elderly and disabled who can't use bicycles?
25
No one is suggesting that all cars be banned forever. Obviously, some people have an obvious need for their personal automobiles. But those people are in the minority.
Um, 84% of the Seattle population owns a car. This is the same as it was 10 years ago, despite McGinn's recent effort to lie about it.
Um, 84% of the Seattle population owns a car. This is the same as it was 10 years ago, despite McGinn's recent effort to lie about it.
26
@21,
RE: Queens mass transit
I dunno... I lived really close to Astoria (East Elmhurst) for a few years and there was really only one bus route within easy walking distance that went to a decent station (the Jackson Heights one). All the other buses and subway stations were actually a pretty far walk.
Queens isn't terrible for mass transit, but since it's so close to Manhattan's fantastic system, it feels shoddy by comparison.
RE: Queens mass transit
I dunno... I lived really close to Astoria (East Elmhurst) for a few years and there was really only one bus route within easy walking distance that went to a decent station (the Jackson Heights one). All the other buses and subway stations were actually a pretty far walk.
Queens isn't terrible for mass transit, but since it's so close to Manhattan's fantastic system, it feels shoddy by comparison.
27
The car in the picture is a Prius plug-in hybrid. Runs on batteries until they're depleted, then switches to its gas engine, which along with braking, will recharge the batteries. Like a regular Prius. But @1, +1...
28
I have a slightly different calculus, may not apply
To you and yours of course.
1) should I bike 20 minutes to get ice cream or
Drive to store and gym? America: We drive 3 miles to walk
One mile on a treadmill.
2) There will come a point I should not be
driving (assuming I live that long) therefor
It's in my interest to encourage decent public
transport....which is very slow to improve.
My only tool to increase the bathed sane
on the buses is to put my sane bathed self
In a seat.
If more people use the public transport,
There will be more public transport and
less need for cars. Maybe most families
will still need a car but maybe fewer will
need 2.
That said: I did/do insist on living near at least
popular bus lines and have a
static work location (so far). That
makes the bus a lot more practical.
To you and yours of course.
1) should I bike 20 minutes to get ice cream or
Drive to store and gym? America: We drive 3 miles to walk
One mile on a treadmill.
2) There will come a point I should not be
driving (assuming I live that long) therefor
It's in my interest to encourage decent public
transport....which is very slow to improve.
My only tool to increase the bathed sane
on the buses is to put my sane bathed self
In a seat.
If more people use the public transport,
There will be more public transport and
less need for cars. Maybe most families
will still need a car but maybe fewer will
need 2.
That said: I did/do insist on living near at least
popular bus lines and have a
static work location (so far). That
makes the bus a lot more practical.
30
Perhaps, but then you don't have to deal with a landlord anymore.
Seattle is rank with slumlords*; I don't blame people for being desperate to buy a home at increased cost to get away from mold, broken plumbing, and shitty neighbors.
*Unless you're willing to pay a premium for renting, which kind of defeats your reasons for renting.
I can confidently state that the reality of the costs of home ownership always greatly exceed those of renting, despite what realtors will try to tell you
Perhaps, but then you don't have to deal with a landlord anymore.
Seattle is rank with slumlords*; I don't blame people for being desperate to buy a home at increased cost to get away from mold, broken plumbing, and shitty neighbors.
*Unless you're willing to pay a premium for renting, which kind of defeats your reasons for renting.
31
@25
I am one of those Seattlites who owns a car. I don't actually need it -- I ride my bike to work every day and for most my errands. I just use the car for occasional long trips or Costco hauls. My wife uses it to drive her carpool to week one week a month.
So, smart guy, how many of those people need those cars? Having one is not the same as depending on one.
I am one of those Seattlites who owns a car. I don't actually need it -- I ride my bike to work every day and for most my errands. I just use the car for occasional long trips or Costco hauls. My wife uses it to drive her carpool to week one week a month.
So, smart guy, how many of those people need those cars? Having one is not the same as depending on one.
32
Charles, No cars is a nice fantasy but there's no way to get rid of them fully. I'm "lucky" in that I do my whole job in 1 office so I can bus & bike relatively easily (though it's harder in the winter when it's -30 degrees here in MN) but I work with a lot of people in my office who have to go out to all of our customers all day long all over the cities. They could not possibly do their job without a car. On top of that, I love road trips. I like to see the country and stop in small towns an camp in national parks. Without a car I can't do that.
Instead of advocating your purist 'eliminate all cars' philosophy how about we work towards a realistic goal of minimizing car use. Getting people like me to bus and bike and getting people like my coworkers to support investment in public transit by showing them how it brings down gas prices and gets people out of their way on the road reducing traffic.
Instead of advocating your purist 'eliminate all cars' philosophy how about we work towards a realistic goal of minimizing car use. Getting people like me to bus and bike and getting people like my coworkers to support investment in public transit by showing them how it brings down gas prices and gets people out of their way on the road reducing traffic.
33
@3 > Or should I not buy a tub of ice cream and bicycle to U-Top-It frozen yogurt in Covington which would be doubly healthy?
Not only doubly healthy, but FUN. Driving in the city with stop lights sucks. Always idling. Can't chit chat with the person next to you. You'll eat the yogurt outside and enjoy the sun instead of infront of the TV at home. Much more memorable life experience. Your brain will probably wipe clear your boring drive to the grocery store in a matter of hours.
Not only doubly healthy, but FUN. Driving in the city with stop lights sucks. Always idling. Can't chit chat with the person next to you. You'll eat the yogurt outside and enjoy the sun instead of infront of the TV at home. Much more memorable life experience. Your brain will probably wipe clear your boring drive to the grocery store in a matter of hours.
35
@23: What the what? I don't have a car and I don't use public transit for my commute or for general day-to-day living. The government doesn't control my feet (or my bicycle, for that matter). Come to think of it, the government controls where all cars go because they control where roads go. If you want to live outside the bounds of governmental control of transportation, your feet are basically your only option.
36
@ 34, LOL. I rode it for 4 1/2 years. It doesn't serve the exurbs; it serves Seattle and Shoreline.
So, what point were you trying to make?
So, what point were you trying to make?
37
My diesel deforests Orangutan habitat for palm oil (biodiesel), gets 50mpg, and blows Prius repellant.
38
@19: Even granting your ridiculously broad assertion (I for one cleared more than $100k selling my last home) some of us want to be part of a community, give our kids a stable home and attend the same schools, and not be beholden to a landlord who may at any time decide to sell the house, or rent it to his nephew, or jack up the rent 20 percent.
I'm guessing you're single. Once you have a family and some roots the prospect of moving regularly is pretty unappealing.
I'm guessing you're single. Once you have a family and some roots the prospect of moving regularly is pretty unappealing.
39
Hybrids are not the answer. For one thing the price of a hybrid is high enough that you'd have to absolutely drive them into the ground to equal what you'd pay for a "normal" vehicle. Plus which no one has made any great statement about what's going to happen to all the hybrid batteries once they go kaput.
40
Someone should point out to the owner of that shiny new Prius Plugin that that little charging unit that's laying on the grass out by the street costs $1100 to replace if someone walks off with it.
41
#31, so now people are only allowed to have what some obnoxious hipster thinks they "need?" If that's the case, then I'd love to go through your belonging -- all of which cause pollution -- and see what you "need."
42
#35, isn't funny how you and the Stranger and the rest of its readers don't give a flying fuck about the elderly or the disabled, who can't ride bicycles? Oh, we put them on ice floes, then?
And good for you that you live in a one-bedroom apartment and don't have a car. But the vast majority of us do have cars, and like going where we want to go, when we want to go, without being dependent on a bus route or schedule.
And good for you that you live in a one-bedroom apartment and don't have a car. But the vast majority of us do have cars, and like going where we want to go, when we want to go, without being dependent on a bus route or schedule.
43
By the way, there are more people in Seattle who own three cars than who own no cars. Take out the people who are in nursing homes or jail and can't drive, or who are too poor to afford a car, and there really aren't very many voluntary bicycle-only hipsters, regardless of how much attention they get from the Stranger and the other wannabes in this city.
44
@42: I live in a 3-bedroom townhouse and give more of a fuck about the disabled than you could possibly know. Ever heard of the paralympics? Disabled folks can ride bikes, too.
Also, I never said dick about the disabled and the elderly. I said that YOU can use your feet if you don't want the guv'ment having any say in where you travel. Most elderly and/or disabled people I know are quite happy to have public transportation available to them, while fucks like you go around complaining that buses suck.
Also, again, my fucking feet take me everywhere I need to go, whenever I want. I rarely ride the bus, but I like knowing that it exists. Car ownership is a massive waste of energy, money, time and space. I like not spending $16,000 a year on a car (the average car ownership cost for an American). I used to have a car, and the day I sold it was one of the happiest in my life. Nobody is forcing you to not have a car. You can enjoy your miserable money-eating pile of plastic and metal. I'll stick to my two feet.
Also, I never said dick about the disabled and the elderly. I said that YOU can use your feet if you don't want the guv'ment having any say in where you travel. Most elderly and/or disabled people I know are quite happy to have public transportation available to them, while fucks like you go around complaining that buses suck.
Also, again, my fucking feet take me everywhere I need to go, whenever I want. I rarely ride the bus, but I like knowing that it exists. Car ownership is a massive waste of energy, money, time and space. I like not spending $16,000 a year on a car (the average car ownership cost for an American). I used to have a car, and the day I sold it was one of the happiest in my life. Nobody is forcing you to not have a car. You can enjoy your miserable money-eating pile of plastic and metal. I'll stick to my two feet.
45
Also, I never said dick about the disabled and the elderly.
You bike nazis never do "say dick about the disabled and the elderly." That's because you really don't give a flying fuck about them. All I ever hear from you assholes is how everyone ought to be on a bicycle. Face it, you'd rather see anyone who can't walk or is too old just die off. Your bike nazi attitude reeks to high heaven, and no amount of obligatory after-"concern" gets you off the hook, hipster phony.
You bike nazis never do "say dick about the disabled and the elderly." That's because you really don't give a flying fuck about them. All I ever hear from you assholes is how everyone ought to be on a bicycle. Face it, you'd rather see anyone who can't walk or is too old just die off. Your bike nazi attitude reeks to high heaven, and no amount of obligatory after-"concern" gets you off the hook, hipster phony.
46
@Mister G: Who here is a bike nazi? I walk everywhere. I've ridden my bike maybe 6 times in the 3ish years I've lived in Seattle. I repeatedly said I was using my feet to get around, it's not my fault you misread that. Again, you're the one decrying public transit, and yet you say "but what about the elderly?" Hey, dumbass -- they need public transit. You can complain about how much public transit sucks, and how you don't want to operate on THE MAN'S schedule, but what do you expect the disabled and elderly to do? I was arguing in favor of a method of transit (human-powered) that doesn't rely on the government or a car. I can't figure out what your angle is. Are you pro car or pro bus? Are you anti-walking? Because that's just stupid.
And, again, you don't know me, or my attitude towards the elderly and disabled, so please stop making assumptions. I never said for grandma to get on a bike (though I know mine could).
Also, the government can take your car and your driver's license away at any time. It's a privilege, not a right. They can't take away my legs.
And, again, you don't know me, or my attitude towards the elderly and disabled, so please stop making assumptions. I never said for grandma to get on a bike (though I know mine could).
Also, the government can take your car and your driver's license away at any time. It's a privilege, not a right. They can't take away my legs.
47
Also, I'm way too fucking old and lame to be a hipster in anyone's eyes. You don't know me, so stop pretending you've got my number. Shit, you probably even think I'm a man.
48
Nobody is forcing you to not have a car. You can enjoy your miserable money-eating pile of plastic and metal. I'll stick to my two feet.
You and your shithead mayor and your bicycle assholes are doing everything they can to force us not to have a car. I don't care if you want to walk. Hell, I walked 5 miles yesterday, and a couple miles today. I also drove. Guess what? I lived the way I wanted to.
Between the "progressive" jerkoffs who want to tell people how to live, and the wingnut jesus freaks who want to tell people how to live, I'd say it's getting harder and harder just to tell all of you shitheads to mind your own fucking business for a change.
If someone wants to drive a car, stop trying to get in their fucking way or you just might find your sorry ass flattened into the pavement.
You and your shithead mayor and your bicycle assholes are doing everything they can to force us not to have a car. I don't care if you want to walk. Hell, I walked 5 miles yesterday, and a couple miles today. I also drove. Guess what? I lived the way I wanted to.
Between the "progressive" jerkoffs who want to tell people how to live, and the wingnut jesus freaks who want to tell people how to live, I'd say it's getting harder and harder just to tell all of you shitheads to mind your own fucking business for a change.
If someone wants to drive a car, stop trying to get in their fucking way or you just might find your sorry ass flattened into the pavement.
49
Dude, seriously? You think we're trying to force you not to have a car? (Also, my mayor? I wasn't even here when he was elected.)
Also, I have been hit by a car. While crossing the street, with the right-of-way. It fucking sucked. Maybe you were the asshole who hit me. I'll never know, since he drove off and won't ever get caught. You sure seem like the kind of guy who takes someone else's choices (ie, walking) and runs them over with his fucking car.
You still haven't explained why you hate people who don't have cars.
Also, I have been hit by a car. While crossing the street, with the right-of-way. It fucking sucked. Maybe you were the asshole who hit me. I'll never know, since he drove off and won't ever get caught. You sure seem like the kind of guy who takes someone else's choices (ie, walking) and runs them over with his fucking car.
You still haven't explained why you hate people who don't have cars.
50
"Cars" or at least some form of personal motorized vehicles are never going away because everyone wants to PILOT something. Cars or hover bikes, it doesn't matter. Human beings want to DRIVE.
51
Listen, ya hipster fuckup, some people can't walk so well, or ride a bike so well, or carry things so well, so they need a car. And other people just want a car because, well, it's none of your fucking business why they want a car. So mind your own fucking business and stop trying to run everyone else's goddamned life.
52
@51
you've effectively swayed my opinion on this issue. for years, I said nothing would make me stop driving (I'm from Orange County...if you didn't own a car, you're screwed. end of story). HOWEVER I will gladly forfeit driving for the rest of my life if it means you don't get to either. so please someone let McGinn know that the time to start the engines of his Automobile Final Solution is now.
you've effectively swayed my opinion on this issue. for years, I said nothing would make me stop driving (I'm from Orange County...if you didn't own a car, you're screwed. end of story). HOWEVER I will gladly forfeit driving for the rest of my life if it means you don't get to either. so please someone let McGinn know that the time to start the engines of his Automobile Final Solution is now.
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