Slog Comments
Secret Video Details Mormon Temple Rituals
1
I know it's close to an election but can we all at least agree all religious ritual is fucking insane?
There is more than enough to go after Romney on a policy level without having to attack him for his crazy religion. Certinaly the Democrats didn't like it when they went after JFK for being a member of a church that protected pedophiles, I don't see why we have to go after Romney for this.
There is more than enough to go after Romney on a policy level without having to attack him for his crazy religion. Certinaly the Democrats didn't like it when they went after JFK for being a member of a church that protected pedophiles, I don't see why we have to go after Romney for this.
3
Yeah I mean...all religious ritual is strange to the outsider, just as all Masonic ritual is strange to the outsider. It would only be important if they were slaughtering animals or something.
5
@1 - Romney was a church elder, JFK was just a rank-and-file member. That does make his involvement in the church valid as an issue.
6
@5, Garfield was an ordained minister, Carter was a deacon in the Baptist church.
People want to make it an issue just because they can. And given the money and influence the Kennedy's had with the church in Massachusets I don't think you can say they were just "rank and file members".
People want to make it an issue just because they can. And given the money and influence the Kennedy's had with the church in Massachusets I don't think you can say they were just "rank and file members".
7
@5 Being a church elder is as hard as still being a member after the age of 18. Basically all rank and file male adults are elders. I agree with 1, there is too much other stuff for attacking him to stoop to religion.
8
Yes rituals are wacky, but aside from the more complex arguments posthumous baptisms have been a bit of a sticky wicket:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_o…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_o…
9
@1 - Another reason it matters is because one of the rituals is to take an "Oath of Vengence Against the United States" as retribution for the killing of Joseph Smith back in the 1800's. I'm sure the RWNJs will be able to overlook that one because, Obama!
10
This is complete bullshit and only strengthens Romney's chances. Leave the temple alone and concentrate on what matters.
11
@10, thank you Fnarf. Like I said, there are real fucking issues that are enough to sink this guy. Attacking his religon here in Bible Country just makes him a victim to the retarded "undecided voters".
13
With the right prodding, this could have been made into a huge issue. Mormonism is blasphemous and heretical to Christianity, and while they'd never convince the 'thumpers to vote for Obama, they could have made both of 'em out to be secret antichrists who want to take (the Christian) God out of America, and maybe convinced a lot of evangelicals to stay home on voting day. But it's far too late for that. Democrats don't have the stomach for that type of scorched earth campaigning anyway.
14
Mormons are crazy, huh? You don't say. Never could have seen that coming. This video will surely blow the lid off of their clever plan to present themselves as not completely batshit crazy.
15
As somebody who comes from a Mormon family and was raised Mormon I can without qualification say you SHOULD absolutely be care about Romney's religion and to believe otherwise is naive. You guys know literally nothing about this religion. Look. Not all religions are equivalent. Why is it religion - out of all the worlds philosophical constructs - get some sort of automatic buy? You know white supremacy is also a "religion."
Look these rituals are "secret." What the fuck does that say about these lunatics? How many Catholic rituals or other mainstream religious are secret?
Mormonism is all about god telling you a "secret." It's the at the heart of your life. The key to your existence on this world. You have this secret purpose- and God tells you what that is through revelation. LITERALLY they believe this. It isn't a metaphor. And by the way, it is perfectly ok to lie or to commit other crimes in the service of the revelation.
So what do you think the guy's secret purpose is? I guarantee you what ever Romney feels about this informs every decision he makes.
This megalomaniacal billionaire, who stole the life savings of thousands of working class people and laughs about it, and who was raised in a cult, who wants control of the worlds most powerful country?
What? You think he thinks god told him to help poor people?
Of course his religion matters.
Look these rituals are "secret." What the fuck does that say about these lunatics? How many Catholic rituals or other mainstream religious are secret?
Mormonism is all about god telling you a "secret." It's the at the heart of your life. The key to your existence on this world. You have this secret purpose- and God tells you what that is through revelation. LITERALLY they believe this. It isn't a metaphor. And by the way, it is perfectly ok to lie or to commit other crimes in the service of the revelation.
So what do you think the guy's secret purpose is? I guarantee you what ever Romney feels about this informs every decision he makes.
This megalomaniacal billionaire, who stole the life savings of thousands of working class people and laughs about it, and who was raised in a cult, who wants control of the worlds most powerful country?
What? You think he thinks god told him to help poor people?
Of course his religion matters.
16
Attacking religion is lame. Videotaping a sacred ceremony is nasty. I know, talking shit about the poor, moving jobs overseas, denying people (what should be) the fundamental right to marry is also nasty. But, we should try to be above this shit. It probably wont' backfire, but I agree lets go after him for his batshit crazy policies.
17
Cato is right. Since Romney's a duplicitous, flagrant liar the religion attack card should be lower in the deck order.
I've known about these Masonic-inspired rituals since the 80s when the fundies were comparing the Smurfs to a world of Satan worship. Rituals serve a purpose. Unfortunately when they become institutionalized--or when they're conjured by a trickster for the purpose of pure fraud--they're very silly.
I've known about these Masonic-inspired rituals since the 80s when the fundies were comparing the Smurfs to a world of Satan worship. Rituals serve a purpose. Unfortunately when they become institutionalized--or when they're conjured by a trickster for the purpose of pure fraud--they're very silly.
18
@16 where do you think his bat shit crazy politics COMES from?
These people can't exist in the "reality based community" because of their bat shit crazy religions with their bat shit crazy secret cerimonies and bat shit crazy (not so) secret agendas.
These people can't exist in the "reality based community" because of their bat shit crazy religions with their bat shit crazy secret cerimonies and bat shit crazy (not so) secret agendas.
19
@15 Thank you. I'm with you. I would have a problem if a presidential candidate was a scientologist, because scientology is a total scam that is only focused on amassing wealth and power for itself. It cares nothing about making the lives of others better. The big, classic religions do, at least in theory if not always in practice. Scientology is all about hiding behind secrets and lies. There's a good reason they don't want the world to know what they're about.
Same thing with the Mormons. They are super-insular and only there for themselves, nothing else. Their charities are for themselves. They demand and require complete obedience and sacrifice to the group. Their history has been marked by violent conflict with the outside world, plenty of bloodshed and plenty of lying and secrecy to cover it up. They don't see themselves as part of society but, instead, as something separate, removed, superior. Instead of patriotism, they have group loyalty. Instead of a philosophy of empathy and charity, theirs is a philosophy of greed and competition.
I would be okay with Romney's faith if his life demonstrated a different ethos, but it doesn't. Romney's life has been as greedy and focused to group loyalty as I would expect from a top Mormon. And lying? Through your teeth? Did you see the first debate? Brigham Young, I believe, said, "We have the smoothest liars" (according to Under the Banner of Heaven). Even the intentions he has revealed - massive, massive tax cuts to the wealthiest coupled with massive military spending, plus the elimination of regulations - is as expected from someone who was raised on the doctrine of group loyalty. The blood-sucking strategy of Bain Capital was all about group loyalty. Everything about Romney's past has shown that he has absorbed the Mormon teachings well. And what's his plan to cut $8 trillion without raising taxes, particularly on the non-wealthy? "I'll tell you after I get elected." Of course! Spoken like a true Mormon. Why should we not think that he'll bring his greedy, deceitful, unpatriotic ways to his presidential agenda?
The more we learn about Romney and his background, the closer he gets to getting elected, the scarier it becomes. I'm thinking he will (would be) way worse than W. Bush.
More...
Same thing with the Mormons. They are super-insular and only there for themselves, nothing else. Their charities are for themselves. They demand and require complete obedience and sacrifice to the group. Their history has been marked by violent conflict with the outside world, plenty of bloodshed and plenty of lying and secrecy to cover it up. They don't see themselves as part of society but, instead, as something separate, removed, superior. Instead of patriotism, they have group loyalty. Instead of a philosophy of empathy and charity, theirs is a philosophy of greed and competition.
I would be okay with Romney's faith if his life demonstrated a different ethos, but it doesn't. Romney's life has been as greedy and focused to group loyalty as I would expect from a top Mormon. And lying? Through your teeth? Did you see the first debate? Brigham Young, I believe, said, "We have the smoothest liars" (according to Under the Banner of Heaven). Even the intentions he has revealed - massive, massive tax cuts to the wealthiest coupled with massive military spending, plus the elimination of regulations - is as expected from someone who was raised on the doctrine of group loyalty. The blood-sucking strategy of Bain Capital was all about group loyalty. Everything about Romney's past has shown that he has absorbed the Mormon teachings well. And what's his plan to cut $8 trillion without raising taxes, particularly on the non-wealthy? "I'll tell you after I get elected." Of course! Spoken like a true Mormon. Why should we not think that he'll bring his greedy, deceitful, unpatriotic ways to his presidential agenda?
The more we learn about Romney and his background, the closer he gets to getting elected, the scarier it becomes. I'm thinking he will (would be) way worse than W. Bush.
20
When religions concern themselves primarily with the spiritual life of their flocks, that's one thing. However when a religion craves political power, wants to actually rule over non-participants, in the temporal realm, and is taking measures to achieve that, I think it's fair to have a public discussion of it, especially when there are allegations a candidate's loyalty to his religion's leadership supercedes his loyalty to the nation's Constitution..
21
Seriously, let's not get too riled up about wacky secret religious ceremonies simply on the grounds that they're wacky secret religious ceremonies we're not used to. That said...
WORST SECRET HANDSHAKE EVER!
Also, I'm a little fuzzy on this oath of revenge business. Against the US? I though Smith and his brother were murdered by an angry mob of townspeople that attacked the jail they were being held in, revenge for having his militia destroy a local press Smith felt threatened by? Something like that?
WORST SECRET HANDSHAKE EVER!
Also, I'm a little fuzzy on this oath of revenge business. Against the US? I though Smith and his brother were murdered by an angry mob of townspeople that attacked the jail they were being held in, revenge for having his militia destroy a local press Smith felt threatened by? Something like that?
23
Ok, so maybe rituals are insane. But there's something about them that speaks to people. I'm a recovering Catholic, and the part I miss most is the ritual of the Mass. I found it to be very comforting to feel connected through the generations to people who had been repeating that ritual for millennia. Difficult to put into the right words...perhaps it's the cultural continuity and being part of something extending back and forward through the ages. Kind of outside of time, if that makes sense.
On another note, I spent some time in yearsggone by doing some fairly serious drugs in fairly serious ways. And there, too, the little rituals became an appealing part of the process. Repeated actions, often done in the presence of others, kind of binding you together, if only for the moment.
I could go on: Thanksgiving dinners, little superstitions. People seem drawn to ritual, and whether or not it makes sense is beside the point.
As I mentioned, I had my own secret rituals for a time, shared only with other cognoscenti. I'd have been upset to have those exposed to others. I disapprove of someone violating the sanctity of these Mormon rituals too. That's disrespectful to their beliefs and to their religious freedom.
On another note, I spent some time in yearsggone by doing some fairly serious drugs in fairly serious ways. And there, too, the little rituals became an appealing part of the process. Repeated actions, often done in the presence of others, kind of binding you together, if only for the moment.
I could go on: Thanksgiving dinners, little superstitions. People seem drawn to ritual, and whether or not it makes sense is beside the point.
As I mentioned, I had my own secret rituals for a time, shared only with other cognoscenti. I'd have been upset to have those exposed to others. I disapprove of someone violating the sanctity of these Mormon rituals too. That's disrespectful to their beliefs and to their religious freedom.
24
ANYONE who partakes in these crazy rituals is not fit to be president of the PTA, let alone the USA.
25
At some point, religion crosses the line into mental illness. It's perfectly legitimate to ask whether a presidential candidate has crossed that line.
26
@18 Geez. Calm down. Sans sarcasm, my viewpoint is that you don't need to know precisely what they do behind closed doors to know that they're loony-tunes. All you have to do is meet them as 'normal' people (i.e. not the pod people who come to your door.) Fundies are crazy anyway, but the LDS folks, that's a special brand of crazy.
28
24
totally.
George Washington was a Mason.
Obviously a kook.
Unfit to be President.
Ditto James Monroe.
And Andrew Jackson.
Andrew Johnson
Theodore Roosevelt
Franklin Roosevelt.....
All Masons.
kooky kooky rituals,,,,,
totally.
George Washington was a Mason.
Obviously a kook.
Unfit to be President.
Ditto James Monroe.
And Andrew Jackson.
Andrew Johnson
Theodore Roosevelt
Franklin Roosevelt.....
All Masons.
kooky kooky rituals,,,,,
29
Cato is right, there's better things than this - it only serves to reinforce "the persecution of religion" talking point.
31
@15 hear fucking hear !
having spent 5 loooooooong years at a xtian college in the midwest during the 70's i also think this i so much a bigger issue than your standard conservative religious issue that it boggles my mind that this hasn't sunk him among the religious demographic.. that billy graham inc. came out just last week and went into the closet about mormonism speaks volumes about the lengths that conservative religious voters have gone to unseat obama. short of declaring obama the much heralded antichrist, which frankly in their eyes would any other year qualify mittens for being the dark lord's right hand man, they're holding so much nose over this that their scalps must be ripping at the seams
that he might wind up being president... well...i just don't have words
having spent 5 loooooooong years at a xtian college in the midwest during the 70's i also think this i so much a bigger issue than your standard conservative religious issue that it boggles my mind that this hasn't sunk him among the religious demographic.. that billy graham inc. came out just last week and went into the closet about mormonism speaks volumes about the lengths that conservative religious voters have gone to unseat obama. short of declaring obama the much heralded antichrist, which frankly in their eyes would any other year qualify mittens for being the dark lord's right hand man, they're holding so much nose over this that their scalps must be ripping at the seams
that he might wind up being president... well...i just don't have words
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