Slog Comments
Who Can Religious Conservatives Blame for Marriage Equality Coming to Maryland?
1
These kinds of stories are annoying. We already know that not ALL Republicans are bigoted assholes. We don't need to be told. Yes, if some Republicans hadn't voted for Equality it would have failed...because of the OTHER Republicans that are still voting! If ALL the Republicans sat the issue out, it would have passed in a landslide. Note to GOP, you're tolerant minority doesn't make your party an admiral organization!
2
I know several conservative voters and they're all pro-equality. Welcome to the new political reality. It's about time the anti-gay rhetoric stopped working.
3
Much like the Catholic church, whose leadership talks a very conservative line, but whose members don't actually vote all that conservatively.
4
You can also "blame" any other group of people who contributed enough votes to put it over the edge.
If all the left handed people, or Jewish people, or natural redheads, or people under 5'5", or any other group, all voted Republican…..
If all the left handed people, or Jewish people, or natural redheads, or people under 5'5", or any other group, all voted Republican…..
8
@ Reverse Polarity - the Catholic Church leadership adapts itself to the country it's in. Always on the conservative side, sure ; but never the most conservative force around. For us European citizens, it's frightening to see how far right they're happy to go in more conservative countries than our own...
And the Church base is not conservative at all, here as well (except the Fundies, but those are frowned upon by normal Catholics, who avoid them like the plague).
And the Church base is not conservative at all, here as well (except the Fundies, but those are frowned upon by normal Catholics, who avoid them like the plague).
9
What's happening here is a sea change in the culture. Today, you won't see any politicians hawking racism as a selling point, but back in the sixties, integration and miscegenation were big issues. Fifty years from now, you won't see any politicians hawking anti-gay selling points, but today they're big issues. Kind of makes one wonder who's being very quiet today, having their Mattachine Society stage.
@8 Not so. The Catholic Church doesn't fit cleanly into either American conservative or American liberal slots. They're on the conservative side with anything that has to do with sex, which includes gay rights, birth control, and abortion, but on the liberal side with anything that has to do with social justice. They're anti-death-penalty, pro-immigration and in favor of taking care of the poor through collective rather than solely private action.
@8 Not so. The Catholic Church doesn't fit cleanly into either American conservative or American liberal slots. They're on the conservative side with anything that has to do with sex, which includes gay rights, birth control, and abortion, but on the liberal side with anything that has to do with social justice. They're anti-death-penalty, pro-immigration and in favor of taking care of the poor through collective rather than solely private action.
10
@DRF I understand your point. But what you're calling "liberal agenda" is already in effect in France... Only extreme-right people call for a return of the death penalty here, the conservatists don't. The catholic church cannot be happy with the death penalty ban in Europe, and agree with death penalty in America. It would look bad.
Social justice is a new thing in the Catholic Church, from the 20th century I think. They didn't oppose death penalty all those previous 19 centuries... But they've had to fight communism, who've catered to their own favorite target : the poor. So they've learned to be big on social justice to keep some of their following. On sex, they've not had to fight that hard, since communism wasn't very liberal on sex either. But, notice how divorced people are allowed to go to church and to receive communion now ? It wasn't the case only 20 years ago.
So, I'll amend to "the Catholic leadership has, historically, always been on the most conservative side they could hold to, worldwide, without massively losing their parishioners in any given part of the world".
Social justice is a new thing in the Catholic Church, from the 20th century I think. They didn't oppose death penalty all those previous 19 centuries... But they've had to fight communism, who've catered to their own favorite target : the poor. So they've learned to be big on social justice to keep some of their following. On sex, they've not had to fight that hard, since communism wasn't very liberal on sex either. But, notice how divorced people are allowed to go to church and to receive communion now ? It wasn't the case only 20 years ago.
So, I'll amend to "the Catholic leadership has, historically, always been on the most conservative side they could hold to, worldwide, without massively losing their parishioners in any given part of the world".
11
Social justice is not new to the Catholic Church. The concept of feeding the poor, caring for the sick and educating the ignorant has been part of its mission since it first formed. It opposed the enslavement of fellow Christians even during the Dark Ages, when most governments did not. In early modern Latin America, slaves who married in the Church were not supposed to be sold away from each other (which is why masters only allowed about 1/5 of slaves to have a solemnized marriage).
I would reply to your amendment with "Catholic leadership has, historically, supported many of the social justice issues of the time in question."
I would reply to your amendment with "Catholic leadership has, historically, supported many of the social justice issues of the time in question."
12
Labor rights are relatively new to Catholicism. IIRC, it was Leo XIII who directly addressed this issue (in part as a response to secular ideologies then appealing to the working class, like socialism and communism).
13
@DRF I wrote and meant the Catholic Leadership.
Besides, for almost all religions, helping fellow believers is a duty - the care of poor, sick persons and minimal education is not a feature exclusive to the Catholic Church. It doesn't extend to its hierarchy actually wanting social justice.
As for the prohibition to sell away from each other Catholic married slaves, it's one of those cases where a social issue is used as a pretense by one power in its fight of influence against another power. If the Catholic hierarchy had really been about social justice, wouldn't they have included in their wrath the Catholic slave owners who separated, by selling them away, common law spouses ? Why didn't they excommunicate them ?
One doesn't need to go that long ago to see how the Catholic Hierarchy considers social justice. In 1977 Mgr Romero was nominated as Archbishop by Rome because he was conservative and not interested in Liberation Theology - social justice for poor people. But then a personal friend of his, who was into Liberation Theology, was assassinated. He reacted by becoming a champion for social justice. 3 years later he was himself assassinated.
Today, his canonization is stalled because Rome fears it would be politically used (interview of B. XVI on May 9th 2007). Rome is not afraid of political use of its people and their words and lives when it's against sexual liberties, but Rome afraid of it when it's for social justice - for Liberation Theology (elaborated by Catholics, by the way).
Besides, for almost all religions, helping fellow believers is a duty - the care of poor, sick persons and minimal education is not a feature exclusive to the Catholic Church. It doesn't extend to its hierarchy actually wanting social justice.
As for the prohibition to sell away from each other Catholic married slaves, it's one of those cases where a social issue is used as a pretense by one power in its fight of influence against another power. If the Catholic hierarchy had really been about social justice, wouldn't they have included in their wrath the Catholic slave owners who separated, by selling them away, common law spouses ? Why didn't they excommunicate them ?
One doesn't need to go that long ago to see how the Catholic Hierarchy considers social justice. In 1977 Mgr Romero was nominated as Archbishop by Rome because he was conservative and not interested in Liberation Theology - social justice for poor people. But then a personal friend of his, who was into Liberation Theology, was assassinated. He reacted by becoming a champion for social justice. 3 years later he was himself assassinated.
Today, his canonization is stalled because Rome fears it would be politically used (interview of B. XVI on May 9th 2007). Rome is not afraid of political use of its people and their words and lives when it's against sexual liberties, but Rome afraid of it when it's for social justice - for Liberation Theology (elaborated by Catholics, by the way).
14
Note to GOP, you're tolerant minority doesn't make your party an admiral organization.Very true. Annapolis is required for that.
15
In Maryland there was a well-organized effort to get Republican moderates to vote for both marriage equality and Maryland's DREAM act. Reverends and Rabbis were brought on board to campaign and to appear in TV ads. Republicans for Marriage Equality worked well with the more traditionally lefty Marylanders for Marriage Equality. The Democrat districts (Howard, Montgomery, Baltimore City/County) were still the only ones where Marriage Equality votes had a majority, but there were strong showings in the other 20 or so mostly rural and exurban counties. If we have to keep fighting for this state by state, this strategy of appealing to moderate Republicans and religious leaders is what is gonna bring marriage equality to all but the most hardened red states.
Comments (15) RSS