Slog Comments
What She Said: E.J. Graff on the Death of Savita Halappanavar
1
I don't tell religious people what to do with their lives. I'd thank them to extend me the same courtesy (the same RIGHT). And this is why I am so rabidly anti-religion.
Oh, and just for an ironic twist: While Catholics in Ireland are happy to kill expectant mothers, Catholics in Massachusetts refuse to let *anyone*, Catholic or not, die if they're going to die in absolute agony a few months later.
Oh, and just for an ironic twist: While Catholics in Ireland are happy to kill expectant mothers, Catholics in Massachusetts refuse to let *anyone*, Catholic or not, die if they're going to die in absolute agony a few months later.
2
"Pro-life" is a misnomer, a fantastically fascist euphemism. "Forced-birther" is the correct term.
3
in India there is a good chance Savita herself would have been aborted because she is female.
but we can't let anything dampen our lust for abortion-on-a-whim, right?
but we can't let anything dampen our lust for abortion-on-a-whim, right?
4
What exactly does Danny want?
This was a case of medical malpractice.
Had Ireland been an abortion-on-demand jurisdiction there is no promise that this incompetent medical team would not have killed her doing the abortion.
What exactly is Danny's beef?
Please calm down, Danny.
Wipe your nose and eyes and take some deep breaths.
When you are sobbing uncontrollably it is impossible to understand what you are blubbering about....
This was a case of medical malpractice.
Had Ireland been an abortion-on-demand jurisdiction there is no promise that this incompetent medical team would not have killed her doing the abortion.
What exactly is Danny's beef?
Please calm down, Danny.
Wipe your nose and eyes and take some deep breaths.
When you are sobbing uncontrollably it is impossible to understand what you are blubbering about....
5
I really wish we could have an honest, open, intellectual discussion about abortion in this country. Sadly, Jesus-humping idiots like our resident trolls (see @3) won't allow it. Leaving innocent women to die of avoidable complications, for the beliefs of others.
6
To the cowardly, unregistered "BabyKiller":
But that's the point, isn't it? That an adult human being was murdered to satisfy your lust for something that would never live to become a baby, no less an adult.
In your world, women are expendable, kill them for potential humans, or even a fetus which will never become a person.
Women are being killed, in your world for your particular twisted version of theology, and that's all I need to know about you.
But that's the point, isn't it? That an adult human being was murdered to satisfy your lust for something that would never live to become a baby, no less an adult.
In your world, women are expendable, kill them for potential humans, or even a fetus which will never become a person.
Women are being killed, in your world for your particular twisted version of theology, and that's all I need to know about you.
7
All we need to do is outbreed the anti-choicers. Much like the troll and the homophobes, they're a dying breed. It's going to take time, but we'll get there in the end. The cold, hard fact of it is the religious zealots are dinosaurs, incapable of change. And evolution is a BITCH to the niche species.
Or we'll all die in the zombie apocalypse. One or the other.
Or we'll all die in the zombie apocalypse. One or the other.
8
5
OK sport-
Let's have that honest, open, intellectual discussion about abortion in this case:
This was medical malpractice.
What inference can a rational person draw from this case that pertains to the debate on abortion? (spoiler alert....none.)
That abortion must be on-demand because sometimes doctors will botch the diagnosis or treatment in health-of-the-mother? no.
and we have tried to have an honest, open, intellectual discussion about abortion in this case on two threads now but only get jesus-humping. your move.
OK sport-
Let's have that honest, open, intellectual discussion about abortion in this case:
This was medical malpractice.
What inference can a rational person draw from this case that pertains to the debate on abortion? (spoiler alert....none.)
That abortion must be on-demand because sometimes doctors will botch the diagnosis or treatment in health-of-the-mother? no.
and we have tried to have an honest, open, intellectual discussion about abortion in this case on two threads now but only get jesus-humping. your move.
9
As for the cowardly, unregistered comment from "Two Many Babies": the "incompetency" shown by the medical staff was their adherence to an anti-abortion law.
So, no legal basis for a malpractice suit.
Also: In 2009, thein-hospital mortality rate for septicemia was about 16 percent.
The pregnancy-associated mortality rate among women who delivered live neonates was 8.8 deaths per 100,000 live births.
The mortality rate related to induced abortion was 0.6 deaths per 100,000 abortions. In the one recent comparative study of pregnancy morbidity in the United States, pregnancy-related complications were more common with childbirth than with abortion.
CONCLUSION:
Legal induced abortion is markedly safer than childbirth. The risk of death associated with childbirth is approximately 14 times higher than that with abortion. Similarly, the overall morbidity associated with childbirth exceeds that with abortion.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22270…
Abortion is safer than Septecemia, or childbirth.
But facts never dissuade a right-wing forced birther, in their dirty lust for more dead women.
So, no legal basis for a malpractice suit.
Also: In 2009, thein-hospital mortality rate for septicemia was about 16 percent.
The pregnancy-associated mortality rate among women who delivered live neonates was 8.8 deaths per 100,000 live births.
The mortality rate related to induced abortion was 0.6 deaths per 100,000 abortions. In the one recent comparative study of pregnancy morbidity in the United States, pregnancy-related complications were more common with childbirth than with abortion.
CONCLUSION:
Legal induced abortion is markedly safer than childbirth. The risk of death associated with childbirth is approximately 14 times higher than that with abortion. Similarly, the overall morbidity associated with childbirth exceeds that with abortion.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22270…
Abortion is safer than Septecemia, or childbirth.
But facts never dissuade a right-wing forced birther, in their dirty lust for more dead women.
10
6
Medical Malpractice is not usually murder.
You should grab some smelling salts and sit down.
You place no value on the lives of yet to be born babies.
That is your right.
And you are in a teeming throng:
slave owners dehumanized negroes.
Nazis dehumanized Jews.
We value human life;
even and especially
the totally innocent
totally helpless
yet to be born humanity from which our future springs.
Biology tells us that human life begins at conception, our personal ethics compels us to respect and seek to protect that life.
This woman's death is a tragedy.
Slaughtering yet to be born babies,
human sacrifices to satisfy some depraved humanist lust,
will not lessen the tragedy.
Hubert Humphrey:
"The moral test of a society is how it treats those who are at the dawn of life,
the yet to be born;
those who are in the twilight of life,
the aged;
and those who are in the shadow of life,
the sick, the needy, and the handicapped."
This society miserably fails the test.....
Medical Malpractice is not usually murder.
You should grab some smelling salts and sit down.
You place no value on the lives of yet to be born babies.
That is your right.
And you are in a teeming throng:
slave owners dehumanized negroes.
Nazis dehumanized Jews.
We value human life;
even and especially
the totally innocent
totally helpless
yet to be born humanity from which our future springs.
Biology tells us that human life begins at conception, our personal ethics compels us to respect and seek to protect that life.
This woman's death is a tragedy.
Slaughtering yet to be born babies,
human sacrifices to satisfy some depraved humanist lust,
will not lessen the tragedy.
Hubert Humphrey:
"The moral test of a society is how it treats those who are at the dawn of life,
the yet to be born;
those who are in the twilight of life,
the aged;
and those who are in the shadow of life,
the sick, the needy, and the handicapped."
This society miserably fails the test.....
11
9
Let us fix that for you:
"The mortality rate related to induced abortion was 0.6 mothers and 100,000 babies per 100,000 abortions."
But you place no value on the lives of the 100,000 babies killed.
Fair enough.
You are entitled to your own set of values.
No matter how cold and heartless they may be...
Abortion is allowed in Ireland to save the life of the mother.
This medical team badly botched the call of when the mother's life was at risk and her treatment.
It is tragic.
Childbirth is risky.
Even with modern medicine.
It is not superlative when childbirth is referred to as a 'miracle'.
We are sorry you have such a negative attitude toward childbirth.
Many people find it one of the wonders of human existence.
Unfortunately for you childbirth is a very necessary fact of life. literally.
Perhaps counseling can help you deal with that fact.
We sure hope you have had yourself fixed...
Let us fix that for you:
"The mortality rate related to induced abortion was 0.6 mothers and 100,000 babies per 100,000 abortions."
But you place no value on the lives of the 100,000 babies killed.
Fair enough.
You are entitled to your own set of values.
No matter how cold and heartless they may be...
Abortion is allowed in Ireland to save the life of the mother.
This medical team badly botched the call of when the mother's life was at risk and her treatment.
It is tragic.
Childbirth is risky.
Even with modern medicine.
It is not superlative when childbirth is referred to as a 'miracle'.
We are sorry you have such a negative attitude toward childbirth.
Many people find it one of the wonders of human existence.
Unfortunately for you childbirth is a very necessary fact of life. literally.
Perhaps counseling can help you deal with that fact.
We sure hope you have had yourself fixed...
12
Oh, I looooooooooooooove the rightwingnut comments that postulate this woman might have died some other way.
Sure, she might have died had she been hit by a bus, in Wingnut Bizarro World.
But back here in the all-too-real world, this woman was murdered by a medically unsound anti-abortion law.
And you wingnuts helped!
Sure, she might have died had she been hit by a bus, in Wingnut Bizarro World.
But back here in the all-too-real world, this woman was murdered by a medically unsound anti-abortion law.
And you wingnuts helped!
13
12
you don't find it ironic that Indians kill up to 25% of female babies?
we never see Slog or Danny getting indignant over that War on Women, that Anti-Woman Genocide.
perhaps Baby Blood Lust robs one of any sense of irony.
you don't find it ironic that Indians kill up to 25% of female babies?
we never see Slog or Danny getting indignant over that War on Women, that Anti-Woman Genocide.
perhaps Baby Blood Lust robs one of any sense of irony.
14
In Wingnut Bizarro World "preserving a fetus that could not possibly survive was more important than an actual, breathing, otherwise healthy and lively woman."
15
"An academic at USCF just released longitudinal research called the Turnaway Study, which looks at what happened to women who couldn’t get abortions because they were too far along—and compared their mental, physical, and economic health to similar women who did have abortions.
You’ll be absolutely shocked to learn that the women who had abortions fared much better than the women who were forced to carry the pregnancy to term. Their mental health was better. Their physical health was better. Their economic circumstances were more stable. They had fewer regrets.
The women who had been unable to get abortions were more likely to stay trapped in abusive and violent relationships. They were physically less healthy. They were more likely to be stressed, exhausted, and unhappy. They and their children were more likely to live in poverty and to be on public assistance."
http://prospect.org/article/dying-pro-li…
You’ll be absolutely shocked to learn that the women who had abortions fared much better than the women who were forced to carry the pregnancy to term. Their mental health was better. Their physical health was better. Their economic circumstances were more stable. They had fewer regrets.
The women who had been unable to get abortions were more likely to stay trapped in abusive and violent relationships. They were physically less healthy. They were more likely to be stressed, exhausted, and unhappy. They and their children were more likely to live in poverty and to be on public assistance."
http://prospect.org/article/dying-pro-li…
16
14
Name calling does not advance the discussion. plus you are not very good at it.
It is tragic that this woman did not get competent medical care.
but Extrapolating her tragedy to advocate that any and all babies should be subject to being killed for any or no reason at the whim of their parents is not logical or morally defensible.
Name calling does not advance the discussion. plus you are not very good at it.
It is tragic that this woman did not get competent medical care.
but Extrapolating her tragedy to advocate that any and all babies should be subject to being killed for any or no reason at the whim of their parents is not logical or morally defensible.
17
15
Liberal women who want to kill their babies certainly should not be forced to bear those children.
For the sake of the children.
They are far better off dead.
Women who want to kill their babies but can not afford it should get financial help.
Society is better off when murderous women are not forced to bear and raise babies they would rather kill.
Liberal women who want to kill their babies certainly should not be forced to bear those children.
For the sake of the children.
They are far better off dead.
Women who want to kill their babies but can not afford it should get financial help.
Society is better off when murderous women are not forced to bear and raise babies they would rather kill.
18
Here's another piece of (unregistered) WingNut (Not) Logic:
"Savita was lucky she got to live as long as she did, because she might have been aborted in India for being a female fetus."
Wow, a lot of illogical "might have beens" there to unpack.
But factually, Savita's parents DIDN'T ABORT, they lived the pro-life position, unlike the supposed "pro-life" law, that killed their daughter.
Her parents' reward for that "pro-life" position?
While mourning the grandchild who didn't have a chance at life, they must also mourn for their daughter murdered by an anti-abortion law -- along with any other grandchildren she might have given them.
There's one logical, and heartbreaking, "might have been."
"Savita was lucky she got to live as long as she did, because she might have been aborted in India for being a female fetus."
Wow, a lot of illogical "might have beens" there to unpack.
But factually, Savita's parents DIDN'T ABORT, they lived the pro-life position, unlike the supposed "pro-life" law, that killed their daughter.
Her parents' reward for that "pro-life" position?
While mourning the grandchild who didn't have a chance at life, they must also mourn for their daughter murdered by an anti-abortion law -- along with any other grandchildren she might have given them.
There's one logical, and heartbreaking, "might have been."
19
@3 strikes me as a tad racist.
And if Ireland indeed has a "Health of the Mother" exception, then the medical staff likely have some liability. It'll be interesting to see how this plays out. I can't imagine it'll go well for the Irish.
And if Ireland indeed has a "Health of the Mother" exception, then the medical staff likely have some liability. It'll be interesting to see how this plays out. I can't imagine it'll go well for the Irish.
20
Ireland may have a "Health of the Mother" exception, but what that is has never been spelled out by the legislature.
Whereas "Fetal heartbeat" has been spelled out legally, so the hospital followed the murderous anti-abortion law, as it was written.
The only liablility involved is that of the morally bankrupt forced birthers.
Whereas "Fetal heartbeat" has been spelled out legally, so the hospital followed the murderous anti-abortion law, as it was written.
The only liablility involved is that of the morally bankrupt forced birthers.
21
This is how morally bankrupt the forced birthers are, what they foment for will induce more abortions. and more deadly abortions.:
"Such deaths are still happening in anti-abortion countries today. In Argentina, the health ministry estimates that one-third of maternal deaths come from illegal abortions. According to the International Planned Parenthood Federation:
Across Latin America … [t]he restrictions placed on access to legal abortion have not made the practice scarce. In Argentina, an estimated 40 percent of all pregnancies terminate in induced abortions. In Peru, that proportion is 37 percent, and in Chile 35 percent.; Most other countries in the region, including Mexico but also the United States, maintain a 20 percent ratio—one induced abortion for every 4 live births.
In fact, if you look at criminal law as only one of many potential policy instruments to affect the social phenomenon that is abortion, it would appear to be a very ineffectual choice: where abortion is illegal, it is equally—if not more—prevalent than in jurisdictions where it is legal. Also where abortion is illegal, it is much more likely to be unsafe. “You get overwhelmed by desperation,” a thirty-five-year-old mother of ten children told me in Argentina. “You seek all the ways out, pills, anything. But if there is no way out, then you take a knife or a knitting needle.”
http://prospect.org/article/dying-pro-li…
"Such deaths are still happening in anti-abortion countries today. In Argentina, the health ministry estimates that one-third of maternal deaths come from illegal abortions. According to the International Planned Parenthood Federation:
Across Latin America … [t]he restrictions placed on access to legal abortion have not made the practice scarce. In Argentina, an estimated 40 percent of all pregnancies terminate in induced abortions. In Peru, that proportion is 37 percent, and in Chile 35 percent.; Most other countries in the region, including Mexico but also the United States, maintain a 20 percent ratio—one induced abortion for every 4 live births.
In fact, if you look at criminal law as only one of many potential policy instruments to affect the social phenomenon that is abortion, it would appear to be a very ineffectual choice: where abortion is illegal, it is equally—if not more—prevalent than in jurisdictions where it is legal. Also where abortion is illegal, it is much more likely to be unsafe. “You get overwhelmed by desperation,” a thirty-five-year-old mother of ten children told me in Argentina. “You seek all the ways out, pills, anything. But if there is no way out, then you take a knife or a knitting needle.”
http://prospect.org/article/dying-pro-li…
22
@18,
And, Savita was originally from India. The stupidity of anti-choice trolls never fails to amuse me.
And, Savita was originally from India. The stupidity of anti-choice trolls never fails to amuse me.
23
I've traveled the world, and without exception, every country I've been to that is predominately Catholic has a markedly worse standard of living than the non-Catholic countries. Hopelessly backwards, twisted and kinky religion. "Save them babies and no birth control- can't feed your 16 kids? God's will."
Religion ruins everything.
Religion ruins everything.
25
Even if they wouldn't deliver the fetus, why weren't pumping her full of antibiotics? It's standard procedure. What makes me even more angry are the comments being made by caregivers at other Irish hospitals who are saying she met the criteria for assisted termination under Irish law.
27
@10: "Biology tells us that human life begins at conception"
No it doesn't. Biology tells us that life began roughly 3.5 to 4.0 billion years ago, and life that is recognizably human began somewhere between 2 million and 250 thousand years ago. There is no way to draw a sharp line between the life of the parents alone and the additional existence of the progeny. You arbitrarily place the boundary at conception, when you might just as easily justify placing it at meiosis, or parturition, or the end of embryogenesis, or the maturation of the progeny.
Again you misrepresent science in order to give your opinions a semblance of credence.
No it doesn't. Biology tells us that life began roughly 3.5 to 4.0 billion years ago, and life that is recognizably human began somewhere between 2 million and 250 thousand years ago. There is no way to draw a sharp line between the life of the parents alone and the additional existence of the progeny. You arbitrarily place the boundary at conception, when you might just as easily justify placing it at meiosis, or parturition, or the end of embryogenesis, or the maturation of the progeny.
Again you misrepresent science in order to give your opinions a semblance of credence.
28
@7: Don't insult dinosaurs that way! One lineage did adapt and is still around today, and in greater diversity than mammals.
29
23
you are near the truth....
Protestant societies rule.
Asian nations that followed the lead of Protestant nations (Japan, SKorea, etc) also rule.
Catholic European societies come next. (regularCatholic, followed by the Eastern flavors...)
then come the poor little brown folk unlucky enough to have been colonized by Catholics.
but we're guessing your travels have been somewhat limited.
otherwise you would realize that Muslim countries are even shittier than the Catholics.
and subSarah Africa brings up the rear.(except for the parts where Protestants settled...)
(please note that as societies adopt Secular Humanism they begin to deteriorate....)
you are near the truth....
Protestant societies rule.
Asian nations that followed the lead of Protestant nations (Japan, SKorea, etc) also rule.
Catholic European societies come next. (regularCatholic, followed by the Eastern flavors...)
then come the poor little brown folk unlucky enough to have been colonized by Catholics.
but we're guessing your travels have been somewhat limited.
otherwise you would realize that Muslim countries are even shittier than the Catholics.
and subSarah Africa brings up the rear.(except for the parts where Protestants settled...)
(please note that as societies adopt Secular Humanism they begin to deteriorate....)
31
"And he told Reuters, "I am still in shock. It is hard to believe that religion can mean somebody's life.""
Jesus fuck! You'd think he's never heard of raging mobs of differing religions slaughtering each other or anything.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partition_o…
Jesus fuck! You'd think he's never heard of raging mobs of differing religions slaughtering each other or anything.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partition_o…
33
@25,
Is there evidence that they weren't? Even if they were, she wouldn't have survived. You can't treat a gangrenous limb with antibiotics, and that's pretty much what was going on inside her body.
Is there evidence that they weren't? Even if they were, she wouldn't have survived. You can't treat a gangrenous limb with antibiotics, and that's pretty much what was going on inside her body.
34
For many of the most vocal nut jobs it just isn't about "teh baybeez" but rather subjugation of women to brood mare status... "cute wittle baybeez" are just an easier sell :/
35
Ireland does have an exception for the life of the mother. In that regard, it's more progressive than the GOP's stated platform.
Republicans apparently would be fine with this woman dying - even if they knew the baby would die as soon as it was born. Because Life.
Republicans apparently would be fine with this woman dying - even if they knew the baby would die as soon as it was born. Because Life.
36
@30: No it doesn't. Conception produces a zygote. New (unique) genome occurs at meiosis. New individual occurs at parturition (physiologically) or maturation (from the standpoint of population genetics). Seriously, stop making shit up.
37
What happened is horrible.
I wish there was LESS religion in this stupid fucked up world. Religion makes heartless killers out of intelligent people.
I wish there was LESS religion in this stupid fucked up world. Religion makes heartless killers out of intelligent people.
38
Dan-Every time you comment on "lady issues" you make me love you even more. You're an exceptional human.
39
I'm no longer a serious Catholic, but I have studied Catholic theology at a graduate level and was a practicing and serious Catholic for years. The problem here isn't Catholicism or even Ireland's abortion laws. Catholic teaching would have permitted - without any hesitation - inducing labor in a case like this, for the purpose of saving the mother's life, even if the secondary effect would likely to be a stillbirth. This is the principle of double effect, and it was taught by Thomas Aquinas. The only thing that is prohibited is direct abortion; medical actions taken for another purpose that may lead to a miscarriage are not prohibited. Regardless, Ireland's abortion laws allow direct abortion if the mother's life is at risk. The REAL problem here is that a bunch of idiot doctors, who probably know plenty about medicine but nothing about law or about their own religion, were allowed to make a decision to withhold treatment without any sort of review. There should be an ethics board, a general counsel, a court, even a godd-mn canon lawyer to tell the doctor's what to do in this case. This isn't the Church's or Ireland's fault. It's the fault of incompetent, ill-informed, heartless doctors.
40
39
One way Danny expresses his particularly nasty virulent form of anti-religious/anti-Catholic bigotry is by posting news stories and misrepresenting the facts to cast the church in a hideous light.
Eventually The Truth is exposed but the credulous Cult Members have already soaked up and regurgitated The Hate by then...
One way Danny expresses his particularly nasty virulent form of anti-religious/anti-Catholic bigotry is by posting news stories and misrepresenting the facts to cast the church in a hideous light.
Eventually The Truth is exposed but the credulous Cult Members have already soaked up and regurgitated The Hate by then...
41
I think the bottom line we can glean from our unregistered troll is that right wing religious folks simply don't like other humans. They don't understand compassion, thinking that it's a tool of manipulation, demanding that others give them compassion while never offering it to others.
Because we're really machines, tools, there to serve some abstract "good" and no more. You get the code, the commandments, and that's it. Obey them, get to heaven, end of story. That's the life of a robot. And that's really the greatest tragedy here, where the human doctors and nurses choose to be nothing more than robots, obeying a useless code, instead of looking into their hearts and understanding that we're all in this together.
I believe I know what was going through their minds as they moved about the hospital while Savita screamed in agony: Nothing. They had shut off.
Because we're really machines, tools, there to serve some abstract "good" and no more. You get the code, the commandments, and that's it. Obey them, get to heaven, end of story. That's the life of a robot. And that's really the greatest tragedy here, where the human doctors and nurses choose to be nothing more than robots, obeying a useless code, instead of looking into their hearts and understanding that we're all in this together.
I believe I know what was going through their minds as they moved about the hospital while Savita screamed in agony: Nothing. They had shut off.
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41
oh dear.
still beating this poor dead horse?
this had nothing to do with compassion, or the lack thereof.
It was medical malpractice.
you and Danny can ignore the facts and try to spin some tale about evil xtians out of it but you just look silly. and reveal yourselves to be vicious, spiteful and totally lacking any respect for the truth.
but speaking of compassion.
compelling someone else to pay more taxes than you are willing to pay yourself in order to fund your pet social projects is not compassion.
it is extortion.
what you voluntarily do with your own time and resources to help others, THAT is compassion.
and study after study shows that conservative xtians give much more of their time and resources to help others than liberal humanists.
even after contributions to their churches are factored out, they give more in absolute terms and as a percentage of their income.
liberals talk the talk.
conservatives walk the walk.
hypocrites.
oh dear.
still beating this poor dead horse?
this had nothing to do with compassion, or the lack thereof.
It was medical malpractice.
you and Danny can ignore the facts and try to spin some tale about evil xtians out of it but you just look silly. and reveal yourselves to be vicious, spiteful and totally lacking any respect for the truth.
but speaking of compassion.
compelling someone else to pay more taxes than you are willing to pay yourself in order to fund your pet social projects is not compassion.
it is extortion.
what you voluntarily do with your own time and resources to help others, THAT is compassion.
and study after study shows that conservative xtians give much more of their time and resources to help others than liberal humanists.
even after contributions to their churches are factored out, they give more in absolute terms and as a percentage of their income.
liberals talk the talk.
conservatives walk the walk.
hypocrites.
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