Slog Comments
Every Child Deserves a Mother and a Father
3
@Homeschooling in general or homeschooling yourself or your kids?
Because if it's the latter, I would probably avoid "You might rape our kids while I'm away!" argument. That shit might not go over well.
Because if it's the latter, I would probably avoid "You might rape our kids while I'm away!" argument. That shit might not go over well.
5
Here's another one where I won't be following the link - thanks for being point on this issue, Dan, so I don't have to read something I won't be able to unread....
6
If there were a shred of truth to the shit people talk about home schooling, where's the data? It would be the easiest thing in the world to make home schooling illegal in every state if only you could cite even the barest hint of a suggestion that home schooled kids generally have worse outcomes. Home schoolers are a small minority, after all, and that alone is half the battle. Should be an easy one.
But the facts are on the side of home schooling. Home schooled kids do as well, or better, on average, as schooled kids. It's sad to see so many loyal Democrats blinded by hate this way. It's not just Republicans who turn their backs reality in the service of a rigid ideology, is it?
But the facts are on the side of home schooling. Home schooled kids do as well, or better, on average, as schooled kids. It's sad to see so many loyal Democrats blinded by hate this way. It's not just Republicans who turn their backs reality in the service of a rigid ideology, is it?
7
@5 I already got to the I can't unread issue when I saw "he began having intercourse with his mom on his eight birthday."
What exactly is it that I could see that would be worse than that? (I mean, don't actually tell me the answer if you know something worse)
Dan is actually responsible for me reading the worst thing I have ever read. I will try to make sure it is below the (more...) button in case someone actually wants to know what it was.
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"Daddy ate my eyes." - said by a four year old whose father had grabbed his head and eaten his son's eyes out of his head.
I am still scarred by that one. I remember it more often than I would like to. I apologize to anyone reading this.
What exactly is it that I could see that would be worse than that? (I mean, don't actually tell me the answer if you know something worse)
Dan is actually responsible for me reading the worst thing I have ever read. I will try to make sure it is below the (more...) button in case someone actually wants to know what it was.
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"Daddy ate my eyes." - said by a four year old whose father had grabbed his head and eaten his son's eyes out of his head.
I am still scarred by that one. I remember it more often than I would like to. I apologize to anyone reading this.
9
@6 no it would not be the easiest thing to outlaw. Many homeschoolers do so because they don't want their kids exposed to ideas that run counter to their religion.
And I don't even have a beef with that. But how many of these stories end up being about home schooling families that don't want anyone to see the bruises and neglect? Far too many.
And I don't even have a beef with that. But how many of these stories end up being about home schooling families that don't want anyone to see the bruises and neglect? Far too many.
10
@6 - Facts work both ways, and since you claim that it's a fact that homeschooled children on average do better than other children, please provide citations for your facts.
In my own personal experience, I know of a small number of homeschooled children who were successful and a much larger number who were poorly educated and completely unprepared for both higher education and even the normal working world. I am the first to admit to admit that anecdotes don't necessarily show the full picture. But I'm also not claiming these anecdotes provide all the facts. Since you are claiming that, please PROVE IT.
In my own personal experience, I know of a small number of homeschooled children who were successful and a much larger number who were poorly educated and completely unprepared for both higher education and even the normal working world. I am the first to admit to admit that anecdotes don't necessarily show the full picture. But I'm also not claiming these anecdotes provide all the facts. Since you are claiming that, please PROVE IT.
11
@6 - I should add that for your sources to be creditable, they shouldn't come directly from homeschooling organizations.
13
@10 @9
Most high school graduates are also unprepared for higher education. Only a third go to college, and most of those who start college don't finish. Many high school graduates can't even read. How come every year we read the same stories of graduates unprepared for further education or a job. The exception is grads who have it together; the rule is mediocrity.
But for some reason a small percentage of failures in home schooling is some kind of huge crime, while a small (or even large) percentage of failures in schooling is to be expected. Why is that?
It's freaky to see your violent, strident reaction, and then you turn around and admit you don't know squat about what you're talking about. How the fuck can you be so certain when you're utterly in the dark? This is what I mean about doctrinaire Democrats being as bad as Republicans. The less information you have, the more certain you are that you're right. At least Fox News viewers can blame their ignorance on Fox News. What's your excuse?
Go fucking read. This information is not kept hidden away from you. It's right there waiting for you to come and get it. And if you can't be bothered to read, then shut up.
More...
Most high school graduates are also unprepared for higher education. Only a third go to college, and most of those who start college don't finish. Many high school graduates can't even read. How come every year we read the same stories of graduates unprepared for further education or a job. The exception is grads who have it together; the rule is mediocrity.
But for some reason a small percentage of failures in home schooling is some kind of huge crime, while a small (or even large) percentage of failures in schooling is to be expected. Why is that?
It's freaky to see your violent, strident reaction, and then you turn around and admit you don't know squat about what you're talking about. How the fuck can you be so certain when you're utterly in the dark? This is what I mean about doctrinaire Democrats being as bad as Republicans. The less information you have, the more certain you are that you're right. At least Fox News viewers can blame their ignorance on Fox News. What's your excuse?
Go fucking read. This information is not kept hidden away from you. It's right there waiting for you to come and get it. And if you can't be bothered to read, then shut up.
15
@ Venomlash -- you can only think that the kid was conceived with this in mind. This is so utterly bizarre and wrong.
16
When I was in High School, a friend of mine had a neighbor our age who was home-schooled for non-religion reasons. Basically he was bullied to the brink of self harm in all of his elementary schools so his mom gave up on the system and started teaching him at home.
He was a nice guy, pretty brilliant and while a bit of a loner and "geek" not much more socially inept than a lot of other folks I knew in the public school system.
That one anecdote and experience on my part doesn't ingratiate me to home-schooling, but nor does it malign the practice. At the very least, with stories like the one Dan cites, I would hope any home-schooled child has welfare checks periodically (and unscheduled/surprise!) required. Is that a thing? I know education budgets are tight, but I am horrified that such a thing went on for so long without anyone finding out. Simple things like arranging mandatory socialization with other home-schooled kids, and maybe even one-on-one interviews with a counselor at periodic interviews would be a good idea. I find it hard to believe that's not happening already, but I wasn't home-schooled & don't have chillins.
I thought you had to register lesson plans, submit testing and grades to an oversight organization, and make time for socializing kids when they're home-schooled. Is that, at the very least, not a thing? How did it get this far before someone noticed something was off? Sexual abuse aside, not knowing how to use eating utensils by the time he was in his early teens? WTF?
He was a nice guy, pretty brilliant and while a bit of a loner and "geek" not much more socially inept than a lot of other folks I knew in the public school system.
That one anecdote and experience on my part doesn't ingratiate me to home-schooling, but nor does it malign the practice. At the very least, with stories like the one Dan cites, I would hope any home-schooled child has welfare checks periodically (and unscheduled/surprise!) required. Is that a thing? I know education budgets are tight, but I am horrified that such a thing went on for so long without anyone finding out. Simple things like arranging mandatory socialization with other home-schooled kids, and maybe even one-on-one interviews with a counselor at periodic interviews would be a good idea. I find it hard to believe that's not happening already, but I wasn't home-schooled & don't have chillins.
I thought you had to register lesson plans, submit testing and grades to an oversight organization, and make time for socializing kids when they're home-schooled. Is that, at the very least, not a thing? How did it get this far before someone noticed something was off? Sexual abuse aside, not knowing how to use eating utensils by the time he was in his early teens? WTF?
17
Sorry, it's not about the home-schooling. It's about child abuse in one of its nastiest (but not the only) forms.
:P blech
:P blech
18
Not everyone is going to be a good teacher for their kids, but some people do really well at homeschooling their children. It isn't a bad thing in itself.
However... families that homeschool should be watched more closely. Homeschooled kids can be isolated too easily, and there should be some effort to monitor them.
However... families that homeschool should be watched more closely. Homeschooled kids can be isolated too easily, and there should be some effort to monitor them.
19
Home schooling is not the problem.
Pedophily advocates are.
" The idea that sex inherently harms children, rather than manipulation or predatorial assholery or lack of attention to children's needs and perspective, is probably going to be the last bit of sex-negativity people will let go of -- if ever they do"
extract from this comment http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Savag…
Once you become convinced sex is not "inherently harming" a child - why not start fucking your own kid ?
An ex- "fucked kid" tells you why : http://reasonsyoushouldntfuckkids.wordpr…
Pedophily advocates are.
" The idea that sex inherently harms children, rather than manipulation or predatorial assholery or lack of attention to children's needs and perspective, is probably going to be the last bit of sex-negativity people will let go of -- if ever they do"
extract from this comment http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Savag…
Once you become convinced sex is not "inherently harming" a child - why not start fucking your own kid ?
An ex- "fucked kid" tells you why : http://reasonsyoushouldntfuckkids.wordpr…
20
@10, @13. I second 10. I volunteer as a tutor in a middle school and work with some of the really under-performing students. EVERY SINGLE KID I am working with right now was "home schooled" in the past few years. They can't read well, can't do long division to save their lives . . . I do have a couple of brilliant friends who were home schooled, went to college, graduate school, etc. But based ONLY on my personal experience, good homeschooling is an exception.
Also, I did GO FUCKING READ some of the articles you pointed to, and I wasn't that impressed. Of the articles that I read, the ones claiming that home-schooled students did so much better than others came from home-schooling organizations, with sources from other home-schooling organizations. This is not to say that there statistics are untrue, but generally good research has many, shall we say, third-party sources. Even so, I can well believe that home-schoolers do better on SAT/ACT exams. They are not forced to take it, thus only those who want to take it/have parents invested in them taking it actually take it. On the other hand, I know that, at least for the ACT, a number of states require that all students take the test--those motivated to do so, and those who are just bubbling circles.
Also, I did GO FUCKING READ some of the articles you pointed to, and I wasn't that impressed. Of the articles that I read, the ones claiming that home-schooled students did so much better than others came from home-schooling organizations, with sources from other home-schooling organizations. This is not to say that there statistics are untrue, but generally good research has many, shall we say, third-party sources. Even so, I can well believe that home-schoolers do better on SAT/ACT exams. They are not forced to take it, thus only those who want to take it/have parents invested in them taking it actually take it. On the other hand, I know that, at least for the ACT, a number of states require that all students take the test--those motivated to do so, and those who are just bubbling circles.
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@19 worse than that, the pedophilia and incest is a much lesser harm they did than the general neglect. From the article: "the boy lived in squalor and didn't know how to use eating utensils or tie his shoelaces when removed from his Plymouth, Luzerne County, home in August 2010."
Didn't know how to use eating utensils or tie shoelaces at age 14? Wow. You'd think social services would have picked up on this before.
I am a massive supporter of unionized public schools, but have not problem with homeschooling. The problem is having a sufficiently educated parent in a family with enough money to have only one parent work, and kids/parents who are a fit in temperament.
This situation in this case has nothing to do with homeschooling. Unlike bible thumping homeschoolers, the "homeschooling" here was just a sham to cover up their physical and psychological abuse. The bible thumpers really believe they are educating their children, and I've known some who have actually done a fine job, if you are willing to leave out evolution...
Didn't know how to use eating utensils or tie shoelaces at age 14? Wow. You'd think social services would have picked up on this before.
I am a massive supporter of unionized public schools, but have not problem with homeschooling. The problem is having a sufficiently educated parent in a family with enough money to have only one parent work, and kids/parents who are a fit in temperament.
This situation in this case has nothing to do with homeschooling. Unlike bible thumping homeschoolers, the "homeschooling" here was just a sham to cover up their physical and psychological abuse. The bible thumpers really believe they are educating their children, and I've known some who have actually done a fine job, if you are willing to leave out evolution...
22
@20
"Wasn't impressed"? But where is your evidence that home schoolers actually do worse? If your anecdotes about all these home schooled kids you know are true, then why don't the impartial sources you prefer find any evidence of it? It simply makes no sense. Every underperforming kid you see was home schooled, yet only you are aware of this problem. Why can't others detect evidence of this epidemic?
One thing that seems kind of silly is to increase monitoring of home schooled kids as if you're going to prevent sexual abuse that way. For every home schooled kid who is sexually abused, there are 100 kids in school who are sexually abused. If anything, you need to be sending cops into the homes of schooled kids to root out sexual abuse.
It's very similar to blaming gays for pedophilia when the majority of pedophiles are straight. Attacking the minority, because they're an easy target, instead of going where the bulk of the problem lies, with the majority.
"Wasn't impressed"? But where is your evidence that home schoolers actually do worse? If your anecdotes about all these home schooled kids you know are true, then why don't the impartial sources you prefer find any evidence of it? It simply makes no sense. Every underperforming kid you see was home schooled, yet only you are aware of this problem. Why can't others detect evidence of this epidemic?
One thing that seems kind of silly is to increase monitoring of home schooled kids as if you're going to prevent sexual abuse that way. For every home schooled kid who is sexually abused, there are 100 kids in school who are sexually abused. If anything, you need to be sending cops into the homes of schooled kids to root out sexual abuse.
It's very similar to blaming gays for pedophilia when the majority of pedophiles are straight. Attacking the minority, because they're an easy target, instead of going where the bulk of the problem lies, with the majority.
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@20
Oh, and I forgot. Nobody is forced to take the SAT and ACT. Both schooled and home schooled SAT/ACT takers are self-selecting. Maybe you're thinking of the WASL or something? Which suggests you don't know a hell of a lot about how education works. But we'll pretend we believe you're really a middle school volunteer. I suppose schools take whomever they can get as long as you're willing to work for free.
Could you find one impartial study that found any evidence that home school kids do worse? And why do you think that is?
Oh, and I forgot. Nobody is forced to take the SAT and ACT. Both schooled and home schooled SAT/ACT takers are self-selecting. Maybe you're thinking of the WASL or something? Which suggests you don't know a hell of a lot about how education works. But we'll pretend we believe you're really a middle school volunteer. I suppose schools take whomever they can get as long as you're willing to work for free.
Could you find one impartial study that found any evidence that home school kids do worse? And why do you think that is?
24
@6 I'm not saying this is a particularly good argument against allowing homeschooling, but I think some of the reason that people have more of a problem with its failures than similar or worse failures from public schools is that many times, the failures of home-schoolers are *on purpose*.
I am in a graduate program in a very well-respected university and one of my fellow first-year students is a young guy (only 18 and in grad school) who was home-schooled. Great success on one hand. On the other hand, he's a Young-Earth Creationist and he apparently knows very little about race relations (he was incredulous that fried chicken and watermelon could be part of an offensive racial stereotype, for example). He goes on about water canopies being the source of the water for the worldwide flood (they protected the ancients from the sun, which explains why Methuselah really did live to be 900!) and how Satan might be fooling us, believes the opposite of very basic facts regarding radiometric dating and genetics (he believes that new genetic information can never be created - I proceeded to list five sources of new genetic material, most of which should be covered in any class that touches on genetics and sexual reproduction).
The fact that he was taught such ridiculously incorrect information about science ON PURPOSE is probably what distinguishes it in people's minds. In the public schools, we as citizens/the government are trying to provide a quality education and we don't always succeed but there are checks against such foolishness (in most places that aren't Texas). The fact that he has such dumb ideas about science isn't because he couldn't understand or because of poor funding or whatever, it's because someone specifically didn't want him to know real science. One is trying and failing, the other is actively filling his head with religious fundamentalist nonsense.
Now, I don't think that homeschooling should be banned, but I understand the line of reasoning of people hold it to a higher standard, and I also understand that the way I've described it isn't neutral or entirely fair (after all, public schools generally try to fill your head with certain ideologies as well... maybe ones that aren't quite as ignorant of biology, but many that can be quite harmful). But that's probably how the thinking goes.
More...
I am in a graduate program in a very well-respected university and one of my fellow first-year students is a young guy (only 18 and in grad school) who was home-schooled. Great success on one hand. On the other hand, he's a Young-Earth Creationist and he apparently knows very little about race relations (he was incredulous that fried chicken and watermelon could be part of an offensive racial stereotype, for example). He goes on about water canopies being the source of the water for the worldwide flood (they protected the ancients from the sun, which explains why Methuselah really did live to be 900!) and how Satan might be fooling us, believes the opposite of very basic facts regarding radiometric dating and genetics (he believes that new genetic information can never be created - I proceeded to list five sources of new genetic material, most of which should be covered in any class that touches on genetics and sexual reproduction).
The fact that he was taught such ridiculously incorrect information about science ON PURPOSE is probably what distinguishes it in people's minds. In the public schools, we as citizens/the government are trying to provide a quality education and we don't always succeed but there are checks against such foolishness (in most places that aren't Texas). The fact that he has such dumb ideas about science isn't because he couldn't understand or because of poor funding or whatever, it's because someone specifically didn't want him to know real science. One is trying and failing, the other is actively filling his head with religious fundamentalist nonsense.
Now, I don't think that homeschooling should be banned, but I understand the line of reasoning of people hold it to a higher standard, and I also understand that the way I've described it isn't neutral or entirely fair (after all, public schools generally try to fill your head with certain ideologies as well... maybe ones that aren't quite as ignorant of biology, but many that can be quite harmful). But that's probably how the thinking goes.
25
@17
Home schooling regulations vary by state. Some have very strict requirements, but others are much more lax. For example, in Texas, pretty much all you have to do is send a letter to the school district letting them know that you're homeschooling your kid.
Home schooling regulations vary by state. Some have very strict requirements, but others are much more lax. For example, in Texas, pretty much all you have to do is send a letter to the school district letting them know that you're homeschooling your kid.
26
@24
But what's the excuse of public schools for graduating people who believe in young earth creationism and any number of dumb ideas? What's their excuse for handing diplomas to people who can't read?
It's easy for you to say it's such a crime that they were taught things you think are wrong "on purpose" but somehow it's OK for students to be misinformed and ignorant in spite of 12+ years of organized, institutionalized effort, at great expense, by professionals. I'd be much more worried about the same bad outcomes from schools than from kids out of school.
Of course both home schooling and regular schooling will have some failures. The question is, why isn't the failure rate of schools a couple orders of magnitude lower than rank amateurs? Why can't schools run circles around home schoolers? At best we have a muddled picture where nobody can prove clearly that one is any better or worse than the other. That's all we have to show for our massive educational industry?
Instead of obsessing over the tiny fraction of home schooled kids with problems, why not go fix the real problem: the vastly greater numbers of schooled kids with problems just as bad?
But what's the excuse of public schools for graduating people who believe in young earth creationism and any number of dumb ideas? What's their excuse for handing diplomas to people who can't read?
It's easy for you to say it's such a crime that they were taught things you think are wrong "on purpose" but somehow it's OK for students to be misinformed and ignorant in spite of 12+ years of organized, institutionalized effort, at great expense, by professionals. I'd be much more worried about the same bad outcomes from schools than from kids out of school.
Of course both home schooling and regular schooling will have some failures. The question is, why isn't the failure rate of schools a couple orders of magnitude lower than rank amateurs? Why can't schools run circles around home schoolers? At best we have a muddled picture where nobody can prove clearly that one is any better or worse than the other. That's all we have to show for our massive educational industry?
Instead of obsessing over the tiny fraction of home schooled kids with problems, why not go fix the real problem: the vastly greater numbers of schooled kids with problems just as bad?
27
As far as I can tell there are only two reasons for people wanting to home-school- one is so that the kids are too ignorant to know they are being abused and two is that they are kept locked away form anyone they might tell.
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@cracked
You're so wrong in your priorities...
The general neglect you can survive, it only hurts your body.
The pedophilia and the incest, it kills your soul. That boy will never be able to experience pleasurable sex, ever. Nor trust anybody enough to want to get in a lasting relationship with. His adulthood, his humanity has been forever stolen from him.
Good luck to him. He's gonna need it.
You're so wrong in your priorities...
The general neglect you can survive, it only hurts your body.
The pedophilia and the incest, it kills your soul. That boy will never be able to experience pleasurable sex, ever. Nor trust anybody enough to want to get in a lasting relationship with. His adulthood, his humanity has been forever stolen from him.
Good luck to him. He's gonna need it.
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