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Urgutha Forka 1
Does anyone give a shit why this is happening?? Why there are so many violent crimes like this??

Why is the focus ENTIRELY on the method used, rather than the intent?

I question your priorities.
Posted by Urgutha Forka on December 14, 2012 at 12:12 PM · Report this
What about the cafe racer shooting back in June? Doesn't that count?
Posted by Butch on December 14, 2012 at 12:12 PM · Report this
dont forget the azana spa shootings in brookfield wisconsin that happened less than 2 months ago. 4 dead including the gunman, many injured.
Posted by darlin13 on December 14, 2012 at 12:15 PM · Report this
biffp 5
I hate to pile on, but that was May and a few blocks from my house. My kids' school was on lockdown.
Posted by biffp on December 14, 2012 at 12:15 PM · Report this
Posted by heyMrDJ on December 14, 2012 at 12:15 PM · Report this
slake 8
Shock, Outrage, Do Nothing, Move On...Rinse repeat...
Posted by slake on December 14, 2012 at 12:24 PM · Report this
@1: Yeah, why is is that so many people who want to kill someone, or somesdozen use a gun?

It's not like they're abundantly available and super efficient at quickly killing from a distance.
Posted by tiktok on December 14, 2012 at 12:25 PM · Report this
internet_jen 11
Was the incident located at Cafe Racer considered a mass shooting?
Posted by internet_jen on December 14, 2012 at 12:28 PM · Report this
Max Solomon 12
@1: alienation. anomie. impulsive suicidal rage.
Posted by Max Solomon on December 14, 2012 at 12:32 PM · Report this
Will in Seattle 13
@10 shhh. If people catch on that someone with a house full of guns could be killed by someone else with a gun from a distance, using like a scope or laser targeters or these things called assault rifles or something, they might not think they're invulnerable from other people's guns.

Having a gun doesn't make you invulnerable to a bullet. Even body armor only protects against low skilled shooters some of the time. Unless you walk around in full armor.
Posted by Will in Seattle on December 14, 2012 at 12:34 PM · Report this
Max Solomon 14
@11: maybe not technically, because the shootings occurred in 3 separate locations and i think there's a threshold.

but it should have been included. it was a rampage, as was this.
Posted by Max Solomon on December 14, 2012 at 12:36 PM · Report this
Urgutha Forka 15
Are you trying to be funny?

Don't you give a damn why these people want to kill?

Unpaid Intern's flippant comment at the end:
Meanwhile in China today, where guns are tightly regulated and not available to the public at large, a man wielding a knife allegedly stabbed 22 children, none of whom died.
OH.... nobody died? Whew, what a relief... guess we can just completely forget about it then, right? No harm no foul.

Does no one care that a guy STABBED 22 PEOPLE?!?

Why is this headline:
March 2, 2012: Fourteen injured in mass shooting at concert in Tempe, AZ.
Not treated as casually unimportant as the China stabbing one? I mean, no one died, so who the fuck cares, right?

Oh that's right, I almost forgot...


You think gun nuts are impossible to reason with? Look in a fucking mirror.
Posted by Urgutha Forka on December 14, 2012 at 12:36 PM · Report this
uh.. you're counting December twice, this isn't the past year.. this is '13 months of tragedy'.
Posted by aaron.kempf on December 14, 2012 at 12:39 PM · Report this
dwightmoodyforgetsthings 17
Guns don't kill people.

Guns just make it really easy to kill people.
Posted by dwightmoodyforgetsthings on December 14, 2012 at 12:41 PM · Report this
Hernandez 18
@1 Well, that's pretty obvious. The answer is cowardice. And like it or not, the cowardice of our people is most acutely expressed in our gun culture and gun violence.

If you're so afraid of your friends, neighbors, and the world around you that you feel being armed to the teeth is a supremely valuable right that must be protected at all costs, you are a coward.

If you're so afraid that someone might put some limit, any limit, on your ability to own firearms in order to prevent mentally ill people from having unfettered access to firearms, you are a coward.

If you believe that deadly force is a reasonable and legitimate response to all variety of adversity and setbacks in life, you are a coward. Hell, if you believe deadly force is a legitimate response to a verbal altercation or non-lethal physical altercation, you are also a coward.

It takes courage to admit that there is a problem, and it takes courage to embark on the difficult work of addressing the problem. No one, ESPECIALLY not the pro-gun lobby, is showing any courage at all right now.
Posted by Hernandez on December 14, 2012 at 12:43 PM · Report this
tainte 19
unpaid intern forgot cafe racer shootings. i guess you get what you pay for.
Posted by tainte on December 14, 2012 at 12:44 PM · Report this
Surprised to see that the Cafe Racer shooting right here in Seattle is not on this list...
Posted by CQ1 on December 14, 2012 at 12:44 PM · Report this
A Magnolia Heron 21

What do you suppose is a more likely outcome: A, that we have much stricter rules on guns and who can obtain them, or, B, that we somehow find a way to get to fix the infinite number of causes that amalgamate to produce these acts?
Posted by A Magnolia Heron on December 14, 2012 at 12:46 PM · Report this
@1 - Because absent the method, the intent wouldn't do anywhere near as much damage. That's the point of the note at the end.
Posted by I have always been... east coaster on December 14, 2012 at 12:48 PM · Report this
Urgutha Forka 23
Cowardice? You mean 'fear,' not 'cowardice,' right?

A person who goes into a school on a shooting rampage, knowing they're eventually going to be confronted by the police shooting back, is many things... but 'coward' isn't a word that comes to mind. Actually, 'fearful' doesn't seem an appropriate label either.

You believe we could decrease some of these shootings from happening by helping people feel more brave? I'm not sure I get what you mean.
Posted by Urgutha Forka on December 14, 2012 at 12:51 PM · Report this
I would like to take issue with the account of the August 24 killing. One man was murdered by a former business associate. Our vaunted police killed the murderer and wounded 9 bystanders in the process.

I'm not sure we can class this as a typical criminal mass shooting. It was an NYPD shitshow.
Posted by Brooklyn Reader on December 14, 2012 at 12:52 PM · Report this

I don't think it's that people DON'T ask, "why did this (and similar tragedies) occur?", but that people simply need time to absorb and emotionally process the sheer enormity of the event itself before they can begin to objectively and rationally delve deeper into the root causes.

Chances are very good that we will learn the shooter has some history of mental illness, an illness that perhaps may have been manageable with medication, but maybe not. If that's the case, then clearly we should be having a very serious conversation about why we as a nation do not feel that treating the victims of such illnesses is or should be a priority; which of course will tie into a whole host of tangential issues such as the general state of our Health Care System, the Affordable Care Act, etc., etc.

And of course there's the question of the sheer ease with which the mentally ill, convicted criminals, et al can obtain these weapons of mass destruction. The NRA will do its best to derail that conversation, just as they always do. But at some point we're going to have to come to grips with the reality that there are far too many people in this country who - legally, medically, or otherwise - have no business owning a firearm, but who nevertheless can get one - or many - with such ridiculous ease that it renders whatever paltry restrictions we currently have in place literally meaningless.

Let's please just hope that it doesn't take another - or several more - similar tragedies as the one that occurred today, before we can collectively decide that "NOW is the time" to have that debate; because if NOT now, then WHEN?

Peace to you all.
Posted by COMTE on December 14, 2012 at 12:54 PM · Report this
If The Stranger staff is so upset about this (as opposed to just the grief porn displays) then why not (as I have suggested before) keep a running list of LOCAL shootings?
All local shootings.
With as many facts as possible on each incident.
If you want to change the law you have to show people that it is local.
Posted by fairly.unbalanced on December 14, 2012 at 1:01 PM · Report this
Hernandez 27
@23 Note how many of these shooters turn the guns on themselves once they're done killing innocents. You know, rather than face the consequences of their actions? What word would you use to describe that? Fear is a part of what cowardice entails, so yeah, that's included. People can't face the inevitable pains of human existence without weapons in their hands.

But you almost answer your own question. We can't instantly make people feel more secure with themselves, or less afraid of the world around them, or compel them to show courage in the face of life's adversities and disappointments. We can't! We cannot fix the "why", we can only address the outcomes. So insisting that we're wrong for not prioritizing the intent, which we can do nothing about, is a goddamn red herring.
Posted by Hernandez on December 14, 2012 at 1:02 PM · Report this
Urgutha Forka 28
What, we can only do one or the other? All I ever see is people screaming about your point A. Nobody seems to give two shits about your point B.
Take away the guns and you still have psychopathic murderers. Does that really make you feel safer? Really?

It wouldn't do as much damage? That's short sighted.

"Unpredictable maniac's guns taken away - Everyone can relax now."

What's more damaging, the fact that the 'unsinkable' Titanic sunk, or the hubris that exists to allow people to boast they had built an 'unsinkable' ship?
Posted by Urgutha Forka on December 14, 2012 at 1:02 PM · Report this
Megan Seling 29
The post has been updated to include the Cafe Racer shooting.
Posted by Megan Seling on December 14, 2012 at 1:05 PM · Report this
@15, I linked the China story earlier this morning in the main post about this shooting. I did so not to avoid the unsettling, base issue that you point out of why these things happen at all and with such frequency (particularly in the U.S.), but to offer a near-parallel counterpoint to the argument against gun restrictions that killers will kill just the same with other weapons, that the availability of guns somehow does not enable these monsters to be more efficient monsters. I think the intern is making a similar point.
Posted by California on December 14, 2012 at 1:07 PM · Report this
Urgutha Forka 31
But it's NOT a red herring! How do you KNOW we can't fix the "why?" Have we ever even tried? Do we ever talk about it?

No, we can't instantly make people feel better or feel less afraid, but we can at least talk about it.

We can and should talk about responsible, real gun control. We also can and should talk about the root causes of these violent acts and how we can prevent them.

I think both your second and third paragraphs @25 are equally important.
Posted by Urgutha Forka on December 14, 2012 at 1:09 PM · Report this
Former Lurker 32
Hey, how come cafe racer isn't on the list? Who's the intern?
Posted by Former Lurker on December 14, 2012 at 1:11 PM · Report this
Tingleyfeeln 33
Read again. Looks like the intern got this list from an FBI agent. Sure, Chelsea could have verified other sources, but even without the Cafe Race tragedy, this list is really huge. There's stuff on this list I don't remember hearing. Think about the possibility of other shootings not being mentioned by this source either.

Fact is that we don't go very long without someone somewhere in our nation going completely nuts and committing one of these acts. And it does happen in other nations, and sometimes it happens without guns.
Posted by Tingleyfeeln on December 14, 2012 at 1:11 PM · Report this
sperifera 34
These aren't the droids you're looking for.
Posted by sperifera on December 14, 2012 at 1:12 PM · Report this
Hernandez 35
@31 That I can agree with you on. The one thing that frustrates me more than anything else is how few people in a position to make a real difference are even trying to in the first place. Thanks for responding, I wish you well.
Posted by Hernandez on December 14, 2012 at 1:14 PM · Report this
Supreme Ruler Of The Universe 36

Young people. Young people. Young people.

It's not some "creepy old guy" that you've made into your bogeyman.

It's you. Yourselves. You're the crazy ones.

You are shooting at yourselves and now at children.

What's wrong with you?
Posted by Supreme Ruler Of The Universe http://_ on December 14, 2012 at 1:53 PM · Report this
kim in portland 37

People who have no hope or feel hopeless can be dangerous.(They can also be easily manipulated and recruited.) I think desperation is at the root of these tragedies. Just a few ideas that I think could help...

1) We need comprehensive health care, including mental health.

2) A living minimum wage, affordable housing, et. cetera.

3) Meaningful gun regulation. Perhaps the Netherlands model could give us some ideas.

4) Serious reevaluation of some aspects of free speech. Presently we allow individuals and networks to wind audiences up with manufactured concerns and such. We need journalism standards to be strong and statements made to be verifiable. We may need to treat the contents of news broadcasts being subject to financial penalties for inflammatory statements.

5) We will need to seriously consider the effects of the Internet . The Internet can be a good thing, but it can also be a source of anxiety and it can feed hopelessness and despair.

These ideas may sound lame. Some years ago one of the young women connected with the domestic violence group I was involved with was murdered by her partner. The ensuing trial highlighted the hopelessness of his story. It illuminated his inability to cope with his anxieties, fears, depression, et cetera. Hopelessness seems, to me, to make humans sick. Sick enough to murder. So, I would not be surprised to hear that the shooter in every case on this list and the knife attacking individual in China felt hopeless and desperate to the point of being mentally ill.

Just my $0.02.

Take care.
Posted by kim in portland on December 14, 2012 at 2:05 PM · Report this
Urgutha Forka 38
Thanks Kim, I don't think your suggestions sound lame. I think your fourth point is one that really strikes hardest. Some people in favor of gun control essentially go as far as to suggest repealing the second amendment... but what about the first amendment? It's terrible to shoot up a school, but isn't it also terrible to use one's voice to work people (sometimes dangerous people) into a violent frenzy?

If we limit the second amendment in order to make people feel safer, then why can't we also limit freedom of speech to make people feel safer? (I'm kinda being devil's advocate here, but only kinda)

Things to think about.
Posted by Urgutha Forka on December 14, 2012 at 2:20 PM · Report this
TheMisanthrope 40
@27 Fear and love are not the only emotions on the life line. There are a whole litany of other emotions that are available.

In the case of today's shootings, @27 I think has it as desperation as well as frustration and anger and mental illness. The shooter's mother was a kindergarten teacher. I don't think it's much of a coincidence that he shot mainly in the kindergarten.

Urgurtha is right in asking the questions of "why?" But GUNS seems to be what everybody wants to talk about instead. Why? Because its easier.
Posted by TheMisanthrope on December 14, 2012 at 2:28 PM · Report this
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn 43
At least we sometimes have one, even two, whole months in a row without a gun massacre. That's great!

I suppose for 2013 we might see these run 12 months a year. And still do nothing?
Posted by Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn on December 14, 2012 at 2:47 PM · Report this
@1 I agree and concur with your sentiments. I would like to suggest a comparison that helps me understand the sense of urgency: if you come across a person who is injured and bleeding profusely, the first priority is to stem the bleeding. Asking questions about how this person got there doesn't help stem the bleeding. The feeling of an epidemic of gun violence in this country can be viewed as a massive trauma that must be treated. Effective gun control would be an attempt to stem that bleeding, once the bleeding is curtailed and the victim is stable, then we can further benefit from seeking answers to the kind of questions you have posed.
Posted by hardtostayengaged on December 14, 2012 at 2:48 PM · Report this
Did you actually read the whole linked article?

Note these lines: "before being subdued by security guards who have been posted across China following a spate of school attacks in recent years" [Clearly the results would have been worse, except there are security guards posted everywhere because of knife wielding maniacs!]

Then: "echo a string of similar assaults against schoolchildren in 2010 that killed nearly 20 and wounded more than 50"

And the closing paragraph: "In one of the worst incidents, a man described as an unemployed, middle-aged doctor killed eight children with a knife in March 2010 to vent his anger over a thwarted romantic relationship."

Err. Hello? This killings obviously wouldn't have happened if these people didn't have access to knives!
Posted by randoma on December 14, 2012 at 5:44 PM · Report this
Honestly, I think we have a huge mental illness problem- so often, it seems like everyone close to these shooters has KNOWN that they are mentally ill, won't take medication consistently, and are thus unpredictable and dangerous. I think we should, at the very least, make it possible for people to get their dangerously mentally ill relatives on a list of people who won't pass a background check to get a firearm. Really though, I'd rather we reconsidered our policies in terms of both institutionalization and how we deal with the mentally ill in general. Aside from these mass shootings, our cities are also full of mentally ill homeless people who should honestly be much better cared for in a society like ours than they are.
Posted by alguna_rubia on December 14, 2012 at 9:51 PM · Report this
You just posted what amounts to a high score list.
Posted by drewm1980 on December 15, 2012 at 1:36 AM · Report this
Way to go Unpaid Intern, you've taken two things I've been crying over today and just made me angry.

It infuriates me that [Chelsea Kellogg] values the lives of Chinese children LESS because they "get to live" with fractured skulls, scarred faces and other deformities caused by this mentally unstable man that was still able to attack 22 children before anyone could stop him.. with only a KNIFE. He didn't need a gun to destroy the lives of twenty two families.

He stole a knife to carve up twenty two children so they will look in the mirror or touch the gaping hole in the back of their heads and always remember him. And what we don't know is the extent of the damage the more seriously injured (there were 3 that had to be transferred to a bigger hospital) suffered.

But thanks for putting it in *bold* just to show how different it is that they lived and how that means it's not a big deal-good to know we Americans have that to look forward to, because surviving those attacks makes it so much better. Have you ever been stabbed? Slashed? Multiple times? Watched it happen? If not, then STFU.

The shootings are a tragedy, today is a tragedy- a horrible awful day that makes my eyes swell up with tears, and my heart goes out to all the families involved. But yesterday was a tragedy too. The loss of life is terrible, but so is the destruction of it. Yes we should be grateful those children in China will have a chance hopefully to work through this and build back confidence in themselves and live a decent life. But it doesn't make what they went through any less awful. And shame on you for thinking that they don't matter.
Posted by beezle on December 15, 2012 at 2:12 AM · Report this
Bob in Guanajuato 53
Petition by Daily Kos to the White House:…
Posted by Bob in Guanajuato on December 15, 2012 at 9:18 AM · Report this
Bob in Guanajuato 54
#15, I know that gun nuts are impossible to reason with. Yourself included. And I look at myself in the mirror at least twice a day.

And Urgutha, people who use guns to murder children are cowards.
Posted by Bob in Guanajuato on December 15, 2012 at 9:25 AM · Report this
Three more in a New Jersey grocery store in August:…
Posted by capicola on December 16, 2012 at 8:23 PM · Report this
What about the theater shooting at the Batman premier? I don't see that on the list, either.
Posted by Jaya the Ferret Runner on December 16, 2012 at 11:39 PM · Report this
Oh, never mind, I guess that's the Aurora, CO one.
Posted by Jaya the Ferret Runner on December 16, 2012 at 11:41 PM · Report this
Guns are not the problem. They need to be guided by a person to do damage.

Neglectful parents who (to their benefit) didn't learn how to model constructive and pro-social behavior for their children are a dangerous, growing phenomenon in our society.

Who's regulating/monitoring parenting skills? Because we become parents doesn't give us a "free ticket" from having mental health and interpersonal communication issues which need attention.

Metaphoric to a person who seeks to acquire a gun - a parent who is not "qualified" (has no "background check" or monitoring done for parenting/communication skills) is potentially very dangerous. Further, parents "wrap their hands around" a child, guide/"aim" their direction, and, ultimately, pull the trigger.

What we really need to give our attention to is not the gun, but who's behind the trigger?
Posted by friendlyneighborhood on December 17, 2012 at 8:32 AM · Report this
I believe it is intentional...I believe these attacks have a underlying purpose....My question is who have these people become affiliated with. Who has been allowed to enter the dark recesses of these peoples mind and fertilize the seed of insanity already there. What a horrible way to end 2012. Maybe we misinterpreted the demise of civilization as the Mayans predicted?
Posted by 1sweetlyfe on December 18, 2012 at 12:01 AM · Report this
You missed the mass shooting that occurred in Seattle's Rainier Beach neighborhood in July of this year. It happened shortly after Cafe Racer's shooting and received little to no coverage from the Seattle press. Six people were shot at a house party, one died later. The shooter(s) were never caught. I know that it wasn't as sensational as Racer but it still offends me that, when tallying mass gun violence, this tragic event was ignored. In my dream world, the Stranger would update their "Timeline of Mass Shootings n the Last Year." Here are details from this event via the Rainier Valley Post:
rainier bv
Posted by Mara Helena on December 23, 2012 at 10:09 AM · Report this

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