Slog Comments
Dems Don't Want to Talk About Gun Control Because Gun Control Is a Bad Issue for Dems
1
We're always quick to point out that when it comes to issues like taxation or gay marriage, the GOP straight-up lost. They had the debate, they forced the issue, and the voters overwhelmingly chose Democrats in response.
Well, on the issue of gun control, I think the Democrats lost, and they know it. Unless gun control becomes an issue that people are willing to change their vote over (in the same way that anti-gay attitudes became a 'deal-breaker' for many Republicans this cycle), don't expect Democrats to fight that battle.
Well, on the issue of gun control, I think the Democrats lost, and they know it. Unless gun control becomes an issue that people are willing to change their vote over (in the same way that anti-gay attitudes became a 'deal-breaker' for many Republicans this cycle), don't expect Democrats to fight that battle.
3
so long as the NRA holds all politicians in thrall your children will remain at risk.
i weep for the families of Connecticut.
i weep for the families of Connecticut.
4
Exactly.
Cause talking about legalizing gay marriage or legalizing MJ was really really bad for us too.
Right?
(cowards)
Cause talking about legalizing gay marriage or legalizing MJ was really really bad for us too.
Right?
(cowards)
6
I'm a democrat. What happened today, and happens to often is a travesty, and a true abomination. I, however, do not support a gun ban, nor do I believe it would be effective at ending or significantly diminishing gun violence. I believe in the right to bear arms so deeply that, had Barack Obama supported such a ban, I would have abstained from voting for him. Democrats will not support a platform that will alienate a vast majority of Americans, nor should they.
As a nation, we need to reflect on why these stabbings occur. A black and white dictate that guns are the sole reason that these tragedies occur dumbs dialogue and closes minds. We need an open and mature conversation about our moralities that is in line with the constitution. Guns aren't going away. The solution is just not that simple.
As a nation, we need to reflect on why these stabbings occur. A black and white dictate that guns are the sole reason that these tragedies occur dumbs dialogue and closes minds. We need an open and mature conversation about our moralities that is in line with the constitution. Guns aren't going away. The solution is just not that simple.
8
The notion that the NRA is politically powerful is more myth than reality. See this article at Media Matters:
http://mediamatters.org/blog/2012/12/13/…
http://mediamatters.org/blog/2012/12/13/…
9
Democrats haven't done anything meaningful on gun control since 1994 with what they thought would be a harmless low hanging fruit in the assault weapons ban. And Gore was probably undone by the gun nuts in his home state.
If their sole concern is reelection, they may be right on this. I know several gun owners who vote Democrat consistently and share the values of the Democratic party platform, but who are such gun nuts that they will turn on a dime to vote against someone who brings gun control legislation to the floor. It is the most important political, social, and moral issue of their lives. It is both scary and sad how they can be manipulated to support politicians and policies they otherwise wouldn't. For them to accept a balancing between gun freedom and sane policy is an assault on their core identity.
If their sole concern is reelection, they may be right on this. I know several gun owners who vote Democrat consistently and share the values of the Democratic party platform, but who are such gun nuts that they will turn on a dime to vote against someone who brings gun control legislation to the floor. It is the most important political, social, and moral issue of their lives. It is both scary and sad how they can be manipulated to support politicians and policies they otherwise wouldn't. For them to accept a balancing between gun freedom and sane policy is an assault on their core identity.
10
Goldy's in full masturbation mode now! He'd never admit it, but this is the best thing that ever happened to him!
11
@7 NancyBalls: your Freudian slip is telling. True, guns aren't the sole reason. But they have so much more killing power than other weapons like knives. That is the heart of my opposition to widespread gun culture.
If we can diminish the probability that someone in a killing mood has a gun on hand, that will make a huge difference. Might still have mass shootings: those folk might get rifles anyway. But the vast majority of the 30,000+ gun fatalities in the US aren't committed by mass murderers. They are committed by people in a murdering mood and a gun. With that many fatalities, just changing P(has a gun)*P(murdering mood) even a little would have a big effect.
If we can diminish the probability that someone in a killing mood has a gun on hand, that will make a huge difference. Might still have mass shootings: those folk might get rifles anyway. But the vast majority of the 30,000+ gun fatalities in the US aren't committed by mass murderers. They are committed by people in a murdering mood and a gun. With that many fatalities, just changing P(has a gun)*P(murdering mood) even a little would have a big effect.
13
Oxycontin, that Media Matters article makes little sense. The only way to gauge the power of the gun lobby is to see meaningful, effective measures taken at local and national levels. Then the true force of the gun lobby will be revealed. Ask yourself this, if a powerful gun lobby is "more myth than reality", why are the gun control measures I refer to so rarely proposed?
14
@6 Gun ban, no of course not, not even possible. But how about just making them a bit harder to get? How about banning those that seem to serve no purpose but to indiscriminately slaughter large numbers of people? Maybe keep them out of the hands of unstable people?
If you don't think that would work to some degree, then please explain why guns are different from every single other thing we know of.
If you don't think that would work to some degree, then please explain why guns are different from every single other thing we know of.
15
See, I'm going to stick with my original appraisal, which is FUCK YOU GUN OWNERS. Does it "solve anything?" Does it "contribute to the dialog?" No. No, it does not.
Fuck you people and your guns.
Fuck you people and your guns.
16
14: "If you don't think that would work to some degree, then please explain why guns are different from every single other thing we know of."
Actually, guns are not different from any other item/behavior that people want to have/do. Case in point: It was pointed out during the I-502 debate that it was easier for high school kids to get marijuana than alcohol. Why do we think a "war on guns" will be any more successful than the "war on drugs"? If people really desire something, they will go to any lengths to get it.
The causes for today's horror go way, way deeper than some printed words (or lack thereof) in some law book. Until we make violence in general "not acceptable" in this society, we can pass all the laws in the world and it won't solve anything. It's attitudes and feelings that have to change, and that is a harder task to accomplish. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try, but let's be clear on the task required.
Actually, guns are not different from any other item/behavior that people want to have/do. Case in point: It was pointed out during the I-502 debate that it was easier for high school kids to get marijuana than alcohol. Why do we think a "war on guns" will be any more successful than the "war on drugs"? If people really desire something, they will go to any lengths to get it.
The causes for today's horror go way, way deeper than some printed words (or lack thereof) in some law book. Until we make violence in general "not acceptable" in this society, we can pass all the laws in the world and it won't solve anything. It's attitudes and feelings that have to change, and that is a harder task to accomplish. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try, but let's be clear on the task required.
17
Democrats haven't done anything meaningful on gun control since 1994 with what they thought would be a harmless low hanging fruit in the assault weapons ban.
In WA State, gun control lost 71%-29% in 1997. Google "Initiative 676" and read the articles.
In WA State, gun control lost 71%-29% in 1997. Google "Initiative 676" and read the articles.
18
Ya' know, elected officals aren't the only ones that can bring and issue to the fore and provoke a "conversation" about it. Especially not in this state!
There's not a damn thing stopping an independent, non-partisan group from putting up an assault weapons ban INITIATIVE for the ballot in 2014.
Worked for weed, it could work for AK's too!
There's not a damn thing stopping an independent, non-partisan group from putting up an assault weapons ban INITIATIVE for the ballot in 2014.
Worked for weed, it could work for AK's too!
19
@14 Yes some forms of control would be probably effective, but there are also privacy issues to consider. We need to be able to talk about these things without being overrun by gun-nuts or anti-gun-nuts. And even if stricter controls were implemented, would they have prevented today's tragedy? I'm guessing the kid (it was a young person, right?) didn't buy the guns himself. And the shooting in Oregon yesterday? Borrowed from a friend.
There is a deep sickness in modern society that needs to be addressed. Attitudes like @15 prevent people from having simple conversations about mental healthy, gun safety, and reasonable regulation.
There is a deep sickness in modern society that needs to be addressed. Attitudes like @15 prevent people from having simple conversations about mental healthy, gun safety, and reasonable regulation.
20
Ya' know, elected officials aren't the only ones who can bring an issue up before the public and invoke a "conversation" about it. Especially in this state!
There's not a damn thing stopping an independent, non-partisan group (preferably of concerned parents) from putting up an Assault Weapons Ban INITIATIVE for the ballot in 2014!
If it worked for MJ, it can work for AK's too. Don't doubt it!
There's not a damn thing stopping an independent, non-partisan group (preferably of concerned parents) from putting up an Assault Weapons Ban INITIATIVE for the ballot in 2014!
If it worked for MJ, it can work for AK's too. Don't doubt it!
21
@10: Do you have a gun?
Put it in your mouth and pull the trigger. It's best for society that you do.
Put it in your mouth and pull the trigger. It's best for society that you do.
22
I'm very curious - exactly what sort of Gun Control are you proposing, that would be effective, Goldy? Connecticut require a permit, a background check and a "class" for handguns. In this case, the weapons were, apparently, owned by his mother - what exactly would you propose that would realistically have prevented him from taking his parent's firearms?
Really, I'd love to hear a well thought out viable proposal on gun control! I'm unable to come up with one that I believe would work myself. Not when there is close to a 1 firearm per person available in the United States already.
Really, I'd love to hear a well thought out viable proposal on gun control! I'm unable to come up with one that I believe would work myself. Not when there is close to a 1 firearm per person available in the United States already.
23
#19, we don't know if they'd have prevented today's tragedy. But some common sense controls could save some lives. Problem is that the "progressives" flip out at times like this and throw every crazy proposal out there.
24
@10 remains the single most laughable would-be troll on slog. I reiterate my offer to pay cash money to whichever staffer forcibly changes his handle to "StrangersWeakestTroll".
25
@22
Read:
Shit works. Vaccines work. Seat belts work. Helmets work. It's science, baby! There's a reason why it's the same gang of know nothings that oppose science at every turn: evolution, global warming, vaccines, homosexuality, and always, guns.
Conservative enemies of science.
Read:
Firearm deaths are significantly lower in states with stricter gun control legislation. Though the sample sizes are small, we find substantial negative correlations between firearm deaths and states that ban assault weapons (-.45), require trigger locks (-.42), and mandate safe storage requirements for guns (-.48).
Shit works. Vaccines work. Seat belts work. Helmets work. It's science, baby! There's a reason why it's the same gang of know nothings that oppose science at every turn: evolution, global warming, vaccines, homosexuality, and always, guns.
Conservative enemies of science.
26
The US Constitution was written in the 18th Century. the ideas contained within it and the Bill of Rights are based in the Enlightenment, a time when Europe was beginning to shed absolute monarchy. Many of these concepts were rooted in then-legitimate fears that the early US Presidents would imitate Britain by assuming absolute control. To avoid this, the Right to Bear Arms and the abolition of a standing peacetime military were encoded.
Well, no arms that you could purchase would enable you to overthrow the US government today. Whatever the biggest gun you think you can buy may be, Uncle Sam's got a much bigger one. And a surveillance system to track your foolhardy attempt at purchasing the heavy arms for your attempted coup.
So why do we hew to this belief that individuals should have the right to high caliber automatic weaponry?
And why do we make it so easy for crazy fuckers to gain access to these weapons?
Well, no arms that you could purchase would enable you to overthrow the US government today. Whatever the biggest gun you think you can buy may be, Uncle Sam's got a much bigger one. And a surveillance system to track your foolhardy attempt at purchasing the heavy arms for your attempted coup.
So why do we hew to this belief that individuals should have the right to high caliber automatic weaponry?
And why do we make it so easy for crazy fuckers to gain access to these weapons?
27
You're right, Goldy.
At least Mayor McGinn, to his credit, just presented a clear stance in support of gun control measures AND increasing funding for mental health services (as Eli reported in the post before this one).
That's a start, maybe?
@18/20: Good point.
At least Mayor McGinn, to his credit, just presented a clear stance in support of gun control measures AND increasing funding for mental health services (as Eli reported in the post before this one).
That's a start, maybe?
@18/20: Good point.
28
Here's another cool idea for controlling mass-shootings: Stop the media blitz. These people are trying to go down in a blaze of glory, to make a mark. If the media would stop making mass-murder so god-damn effective at providing the insane with what they want the insane would look elsewhere. Maybe they'd dance around highways naked or something other such low-body count behavior.
29
@25, we're talking about Connecticut, where A) "Assault Weapons" are illegal (although I believe this sunsetted with the Federal 'ban') B) requires trigger locks C) mandates storage requirements. From Connecticut's Gun Legislation:
"The law imposes criminal penalties on people who (1) store loaded firearms in a way that gives a minor under age 16 unauthorized access to them and (2) transfer handguns to minors under age 21, except as authorized at firing or shooting ranges."
"With minor exceptions, state law bars anyone from carrying handguns (except antique handguns) either concealed or openly without a gun permit in Connecticut, except in one's home or business. The permittee must carry the permit when carrying a handgun (CGS § 29-35(a)). Carrying a handgun without a permit is punishable by imprisonment for up to five years and a fine of up to $1,000, with a one-year mandatory minimum sentence in the absence of mitigating circumstances. Any handgun found in the violator's possession must be forfeited (CGS § 29-37(b)). A permittee who does not carry the permit on his person when carrying handguns commits an infraction and must pay a $35 fine (CGS § 29-37(c))."
From the link you provided, you'll notice that Connecticut has some of the lowest firearms deaths, possibly due to some of the strictest firearms regulations in the country. Yet, that did not prevent this tragedy. So, please tell me how "Shit works".
@26, No one has a "right" to high caliber automatic weaponry. The barrier to purchase of an automatic weapon is quite high.
"The law imposes criminal penalties on people who (1) store loaded firearms in a way that gives a minor under age 16 unauthorized access to them and (2) transfer handguns to minors under age 21, except as authorized at firing or shooting ranges."
"With minor exceptions, state law bars anyone from carrying handguns (except antique handguns) either concealed or openly without a gun permit in Connecticut, except in one's home or business. The permittee must carry the permit when carrying a handgun (CGS § 29-35(a)). Carrying a handgun without a permit is punishable by imprisonment for up to five years and a fine of up to $1,000, with a one-year mandatory minimum sentence in the absence of mitigating circumstances. Any handgun found in the violator's possession must be forfeited (CGS § 29-37(b)). A permittee who does not carry the permit on his person when carrying handguns commits an infraction and must pay a $35 fine (CGS § 29-37(c))."
From the link you provided, you'll notice that Connecticut has some of the lowest firearms deaths, possibly due to some of the strictest firearms regulations in the country. Yet, that did not prevent this tragedy. So, please tell me how "Shit works".
@26, No one has a "right" to high caliber automatic weaponry. The barrier to purchase of an automatic weapon is quite high.
30
#25, you forgot to mention the most important phase in that article: "The disclaimer here is that correlation is not causation." There is also this zinger: "the sample sizes are small."
The reality is this: Firearm deaths (and rates of violent crime) are highest in big cities with high percentages of minorities in their populations, and generally rise as you go from north to south. This is true all over the continental United States. WA State lower than Oregon, which is lower than northern CA, which is lower than southern CA. North Dakota lower than South Dakota, which is lower than Nebraska, which is lower than Kansas, which is lower than Oklahoma, which is lower than Texas. (North Dakota might have risen since I last looked at this, because of the influx of oil workers.
Vermont and Maine have very few firearms regs, but very low rates of murder and violent crime. Start driving south, and all the rates rise.
So, #25, are you in favor of science, or are you in favor of science that confirms your preconceived opinions?
The reality is this: Firearm deaths (and rates of violent crime) are highest in big cities with high percentages of minorities in their populations, and generally rise as you go from north to south. This is true all over the continental United States. WA State lower than Oregon, which is lower than northern CA, which is lower than southern CA. North Dakota lower than South Dakota, which is lower than Nebraska, which is lower than Kansas, which is lower than Oklahoma, which is lower than Texas. (North Dakota might have risen since I last looked at this, because of the influx of oil workers.
Vermont and Maine have very few firearms regs, but very low rates of murder and violent crime. Start driving south, and all the rates rise.
So, #25, are you in favor of science, or are you in favor of science that confirms your preconceived opinions?
32
@26
A bunch of illiterate goat farmers with a backwards religion armed with sub par small arms have been giving the US military a pretty good run for it's money for the last decade.
A bunch of illiterate goat farmers with a backwards religion armed with sub par small arms have been giving the US military a pretty good run for it's money for the last decade.
33
@29
Connecticut ban was instated before the Federal ban and their law is in still in force, New Jersey has an even stricter ban.
Connecticut ban was instated before the Federal ban and their law is in still in force, New Jersey has an even stricter ban.
34
@29
As many others have repeatedly stressed, this isn't about some magic retroactive perfect law targeted at this one guy to stop this one incident. That would be seriously misguided. We don't write any laws intended to stop one and only one specific instance of crime. We regulate to reduce the overall frequency of incidents, and Connecticut has been successful, overall, compared to states that don't regulate.
The reason this one incident today matters is that it is the latest in an ongoing epidemic of mass shootings. And part of a larger picture of too much overall gun violence. If we had only had this one incident, it would be premature to change anything in reaction. This is just the latest outrage.
It's depressing to think how many of these massacres have to happen before that sinks in. I don't expect much to come of this one. It's not going to be until the next one, or the next one, or the next one until the cracks begin to appear.
As many others have repeatedly stressed, this isn't about some magic retroactive perfect law targeted at this one guy to stop this one incident. That would be seriously misguided. We don't write any laws intended to stop one and only one specific instance of crime. We regulate to reduce the overall frequency of incidents, and Connecticut has been successful, overall, compared to states that don't regulate.
The reason this one incident today matters is that it is the latest in an ongoing epidemic of mass shootings. And part of a larger picture of too much overall gun violence. If we had only had this one incident, it would be premature to change anything in reaction. This is just the latest outrage.
It's depressing to think how many of these massacres have to happen before that sinks in. I don't expect much to come of this one. It's not going to be until the next one, or the next one, or the next one until the cracks begin to appear.
36
gun owners: yes, gun controls would prevent this, look around the world, the nations with strong gun controls do not have these massacres at this rate -- nowhere near. also they have far less deaths by gun, and no, death by knives do not rise up in a substitution effect, so shut up on that, too. and those who say what laws would prevent this. the laws they have in japan england wales ireland canada etc. which amount to bans on some weapons, and HIGHLY LIMITED allowance of other guns like rifles and handguns, eg in england only about 4% own guns. under their licensing laws. so the average mom in new jersey SHOULD NOT HAVE A GUN because she LIKE YOU MORONS cannot guarantee her semi crazy kid or friend or drunk husband won't take the damn gun. see, it's you and your ilk promoting guns all over that make them ez to get, by theft or legal ownership, and this helps cause these deaths. now then the second amendment please shut the fuck up. it does not mean we cannot ban a class of guns or regulate the hell out of guns. here's why. we all agre we can ban private ownership of tanks. tanks are arms. ditto, nukes. so you all agree the second a is okay with banning a class of arms. voila, we can ban assault weapons. now get this you morons. back in the day, when states were enacting rights to bear arms that SAID they were INDIVIDUAL rights to bear arms, which the second doesn't, btw, those states like texas WERE OKAY WITH BANNING CLASSES OF GUNS like revolvers so shut the fuck up with the specious legal drivel you spew about -- you're just wrong. underneath all this is hyour wrong views that guns make us safe, guns make us protected from tyranny, my god, do you think they have tyranny in fucking england and canada? they have fucking elections and they don't seem to start as many crazy wars as we do, nor do their ghettos have the vast number of gun deaths ours do, so please shut the fuck up until you're just going to admit you are collossolly wrong. finally the idiots who talk about connecticut laws or rates of this or that within the usa, stop being so fucking deliberately stupid. of course CT laws won't stop guns if someone can waltz in from new jersey. of course dc laws can't stop guns if someone can drive in IN ONE MINUTE from virginia obviously you need national level laws. and then there's switzerland and israel, which prove the rule, which is this: the moreguns you have you can have them with safety if there is helluva lotta regulations in essence, if every owner is in the military. that mom in nj? was she in the militia? nope. we got 200 million guns all over and till you gun loving gun nuts stop your fantasties spewed out over the years from guns don't kill people to gun control doesn't work to this to that blah blahb blah it wont' change, and it's your fucking fault.
More...
37
@33 typical gun lover drivel. of course a state level law does not work. however, in japan canada england etc. all over the world many nations with very strong gun laws and bans do not have these kinds of massacre rates as we have. it's a clear correlation AND causation. gun controls work all over. the denialism and quibbling bullshit of folks like canadian bacon are to blame.
38
@16 Your example proves my point. 502 was not about getting rid of all restrictions on marijuana it was about moving it into a highly regulated market.
It is not so much about the law alone as it is overall access. If the kid next to me in trig is selling dime bags then that is pretty damn accessible. If I have to go to a special store where I will be required to show ID that is much less accessible.
That's the best option. Not a ban, not what we have now, but a system whereby people can access guns, but with safe guards in place.
It is not so much about the law alone as it is overall access. If the kid next to me in trig is selling dime bags then that is pretty damn accessible. If I have to go to a special store where I will be required to show ID that is much less accessible.
That's the best option. Not a ban, not what we have now, but a system whereby people can access guns, but with safe guards in place.
39
acrtually fire arm deaths are lowest in nations with strong and effective gun controls, such as england, japan, canada, germany. in the usa the laws of a particular state obviously aren't even relevant as there are fifty states in the nation and it's highly mobile. duh. but gun loving gun owners seeking to stop all rational discussion of gun control love to lie the lie that since CT had a ban or Dc or what not and there was a crime there with guns, somehow gun controls don't work. when obviously they do if you look internationally. you need the entire nation on board, big fucking duh.
40
#33, the shooter was able to buy high capacity magazines through the mail. Or wait, maybe that was a different massacre. Come on, there's a reasonably short list of pretty effective things that could be done, if they were done nationwide. They wouldn't completely "solve" the problem. Nothing ever does. But we can greatly reduce the violence without infringing second amendment freedom.
Some of the things that "progressives" push for are just dumb, in my opinion. One example is bans on "assault" weapons, which to me are about as meaningful as banning beards or mullets. Totally cosmetic. And a lot of these people don't know the difference between single-shot, semi-automatic, and automatic. And so on,
But you know that there are gaping holes in the regulatory framework.
Some of the things that "progressives" push for are just dumb, in my opinion. One example is bans on "assault" weapons, which to me are about as meaningful as banning beards or mullets. Totally cosmetic. And a lot of these people don't know the difference between single-shot, semi-automatic, and automatic. And so on,
But you know that there are gaping holes in the regulatory framework.
41
I'm so glad I completely ignored the internet today.
As usual, people kill people, not guns. This was a failing of the mental health system and social safety net as a whole.
Don't get your wires crossed.
As usual, people kill people, not guns. This was a failing of the mental health system and social safety net as a whole.
Don't get your wires crossed.
42
Sure, let's ban all the guns.
While we're at it, let's ban the massive media frenzy that inevitably follows every mass killing. Think about it - 30 years ago we had the same gun laws, and yet slaughtering students and moviegoers, or attempting to do so, wasn't a biweekly occurrence. Then Columbine happened, followed by billions of bytes of media raking through every aspect of the killers' lives, not to mention the Hollywood movies, documentaries, and books, all of which provide a huge incentive for any hateful asshole looking for an easy way to leave his mark on the world. What's more, the ubiquitous coverage plants ideas in the heads of thousands of psychopathic lunatics.
A*** L**** wouldn't have gunned down those kids with his mother's legally purchased guns if he'd never heard about the scores of preceding incidents.
While we're at it, let's ban the massive media frenzy that inevitably follows every mass killing. Think about it - 30 years ago we had the same gun laws, and yet slaughtering students and moviegoers, or attempting to do so, wasn't a biweekly occurrence. Then Columbine happened, followed by billions of bytes of media raking through every aspect of the killers' lives, not to mention the Hollywood movies, documentaries, and books, all of which provide a huge incentive for any hateful asshole looking for an easy way to leave his mark on the world. What's more, the ubiquitous coverage plants ideas in the heads of thousands of psychopathic lunatics.
A*** L**** wouldn't have gunned down those kids with his mother's legally purchased guns if he'd never heard about the scores of preceding incidents.
43
P.S. As long as the media keeps sucking these killer's dicks (posthumously if necessary), you can look forward to increasingly bizarre and horrific variations of this stuff in the future.
Anyone remember the Wyoming community college shooting from a couple of weeks ago. Barely. No creativity, small body count, and Wyoming? That ain't gonna drive page hits.
But dressing up as the Joker and showing up at the Batman premiere? Or mowing down 20 first graders? Now there's a story that sells!
Anyone remember the Wyoming community college shooting from a couple of weeks ago. Barely. No creativity, small body count, and Wyoming? That ain't gonna drive page hits.
But dressing up as the Joker and showing up at the Batman premiere? Or mowing down 20 first graders? Now there's a story that sells!
45
Mother Jones has an article on mass shootings and there have been something like 81 since the early 1980s. Almost all of them involve white men, with 4 exceptions: 1 woman, one African American,1 American Indian and the Asian guy at Virginia Tech. In all instances the shooters were mentally unstable or as is the case with this 20 year old had "personality disorders." All were upset by personal stuff in their lives, but in some instances we have no idea what motivated the murdering son of bitch because he usually kills himself. These were people whose wives left them, got fired, or were enraged about something else, or just fucking nuts.
The mental health system cannot contain crazy, violence prone people. In our state Anthony Zamora is an example. Wasn't he just transferred from Western to jail? However the way the laws are written (or fucking ignored by the state legislature) Zamora probably won't be able to be held in jail because he is considered mentally ill and therefore not a criminal.
Western, probably like most mental hospitals, doesn't have the capacity to successfully house violent criminals (see nut case who escaped on an outing and killed people a year or so back from western).
This 20 year old who was obviously a life long troubled youth, lived with his mother who inexplicably owned a set of assault weapons. Why you would have firearms in a house with a troubled male is inexplicable and something I will never understand.
What I do know is shooting kindergartners execution style is the turning point. WHAT THE FUCK is wrong with us? And why do we tolerate it?
The mental health system cannot contain crazy, violence prone people. In our state Anthony Zamora is an example. Wasn't he just transferred from Western to jail? However the way the laws are written (or fucking ignored by the state legislature) Zamora probably won't be able to be held in jail because he is considered mentally ill and therefore not a criminal.
Western, probably like most mental hospitals, doesn't have the capacity to successfully house violent criminals (see nut case who escaped on an outing and killed people a year or so back from western).
This 20 year old who was obviously a life long troubled youth, lived with his mother who inexplicably owned a set of assault weapons. Why you would have firearms in a house with a troubled male is inexplicable and something I will never understand.
What I do know is shooting kindergartners execution style is the turning point. WHAT THE FUCK is wrong with us? And why do we tolerate it?
46
The Dems also did not want to listen about NDAA, or the TSA... why would they give a shit about guns? Lock people up, give people cancer, shoot their children dead dead dead... that's what America is all about, Charlie Brown.
47
Remember kids, if everyone has a nuclear arsenal, we're all much safer from attack. North Korea and Iran are just doing their part to protect everyone's kids. What's all the fuss?
48
@34: I think you missed my original question which is, what gun law do you propose (or rather Goldy) that would have any effect on what happened in Connecticut? The only thing that I can think of that would be effective would be a nationwide ban (and collection/destruction of the millions of firearms out there) which is never going to happen. Given our country as it stands, the only thing that will help reduce gun violence, in my opinion, is gun education, and better mental health system/facilities/education.
I notice that you don't offer any sort of idea for how to fix this, just restate that things are broken.
I notice that you don't offer any sort of idea for how to fix this, just restate that things are broken.
49
Seems to me that it makes sense that taking an unconstitutional stance SHOULD be politically difficult. It should be political suicide for rightwingers taking stances against equal protection just as it currently is for saner people taking stances in favor of gun control.
If we have a problem with guns, we need an amendment, not an initiative.
If we have a problem with guns, we need an amendment, not an initiative.
50
The way to lessen the probability that this will happen is to ban all guns. Period. If you say that won't do it, I say it will lessen the probability that this will happen again. That's good enough for me.
51
As others have pointed out, the U.S. Constitution was written in the 18th Century. At the time, the most sophisticated weaponry available was a two-barrel muzzle-loading flintlock. Perhaps if we restricted universal access to those and got all other types out of private citizens' hands, we'd have a safer country. There's no reason for anyone to have an assault weapon in the house. None.
52
If I've learned one thing reading Slog this year, it's that all the evils of the world are caused by two people, Mittens and Rmoney.
53
@51
When the constitution was written the height of communications technology was the printing press. Should we restrict free speech because at the time there was no internet?
When the constitution was written the height of communications technology was the printing press. Should we restrict free speech because at the time there was no internet?
55
I think trying to enact gun control is like going against abortion. You are going to run into a fuck load of resistance. The kind of resistance people have spent their entire lives waiting for.
56
There are a large number of people in America who, sadly, have both fetishized and deified the 2nd amendment. They don't give a flying fuck about the rest of the Bill of Rights. They don't give a flying fuck that the right to unreasonable search and seizure (4th amendment) has been completely neutered. They don't give a flying fuck that the 8th amendment (cruel and unusual punishment) is routinely violated by our corporate, for profit prison system. Nor do they give a flying fuck that the 1st amendment right to assemble and address for grievances is now, for all practical purpose, null and void. Nor do they seem the have the foggiest idea what "Well regulated" might mean. If you are one of these people, please, from the bottom of my heart... Go fuck yourself, you miserable, selfish hypocrite.
57
@55 Uhhh...? Pretty sheltered, right? Hadn't noticed that that anti-choice people are winning in much of the country.
How about this, just like the forced transvaginal ultrasound has nothing to do with medical care and are intended simply to make exercising a constitutional right unpleasant, howabout we force gun buyers the get colonoscopies?
There, see how I've proposed a reasonable measure?
How about this, just like the forced transvaginal ultrasound has nothing to do with medical care and are intended simply to make exercising a constitutional right unpleasant, howabout we force gun buyers the get colonoscopies?
There, see how I've proposed a reasonable measure?
58
@40, but banning high capacity magazines is EXACTLY the bill that's failing in the Senate right now. Today. There's a bill in the Senate to ban high capacity magazines, but it's being deliberately blocked in committee.
Every tiny change in the gun laws receives the full force of NRA-led disapproval. The only tiny changes that ever gain any traction are the ones like the bills that were passed yesterday in Ohio and Wisconsin. Gun rights expanded, control limited. Over and over again.
This is why we don't believe you when you say things like "dialog".
Every tiny change in the gun laws receives the full force of NRA-led disapproval. The only tiny changes that ever gain any traction are the ones like the bills that were passed yesterday in Ohio and Wisconsin. Gun rights expanded, control limited. Over and over again.
This is why we don't believe you when you say things like "dialog".
60
can the families sue the person who sold the gun that caused all this bloodshed?
it seems reasonable that someone should be held financially accountable.
it seems reasonable that someone should be held financially accountable.
61
Hey - how about the utter and abysmal failure of our nation's mental health systems, which have left the often untenable burden of care and therapy to fall entirely on family members - many of whom are unprepared or unwilling to provide the sort of treatment which is necessary to protect individuals such as this young man from others and themselves.
There will always be guns. While gun control is certainly an element of this tragedy, it is just one facet of what was almost certainly a preventable occurrence. In the next 24 hours I can almost guarantee that we will "discover" that the shooter had a LONG history of violent and delusional behavior.
There will always be guns. While gun control is certainly an element of this tragedy, it is just one facet of what was almost certainly a preventable occurrence. In the next 24 hours I can almost guarantee that we will "discover" that the shooter had a LONG history of violent and delusional behavior.
62
You know what causes gun violence? Guns. This idea that they don't, and their users do, is a dead meme that being beaten like a dead horse. If this killer didn't have access to guns, maybe he would have done a mass stabbing like the one in China, but I'd rather the devoted killer have to bring those measures than what happened in that elementary school.
Excuse me, please read this comment 72 hours from now, when it's acceptable to besmirch the perfect 2nd amendment with my baseless accusation that we should aim to have far less guns in society than we do today. ALL. GUNS.
Excuse me, please read this comment 72 hours from now, when it's acceptable to besmirch the perfect 2nd amendment with my baseless accusation that we should aim to have far less guns in society than we do today. ALL. GUNS.
63
What of the 400+ homicides in Chicago this year in a gun free city? Or high crime in DC, Detroit, New York? LA? What of the fact that all these media massacres occurred in "gun free" zones? What of the media that is glamorizing and exploiting these tragedies? What of the War on Drugs that helps create a black market which creates opportunities for violent clashes amongst dealers/gangs/police? What of the mental pollution in our environment that is exacerbating mental instability in some individuals? Or the high rates of medication and pharmaceuticals that are being prescribed to treat the symptom and not the cause? Why is gun violence prevalent in dense urban centers with stricter gun control; where the culture is adverse to firearms, these places that often have gross economic disparity and lack of opportunity? What of the thousands of deaths in Mexico, where the US government funneled firearms through lawful dealers (who were told to continue to sell) to cartels vis a vis The Fast & Furious scandal? Why are you not as upset when our weeping President bombs civilians in Pakistan to kill one "terrorist?"
64
Let's see, mental health issues, video games, the media, the social safety net, fast food, body odor, traffic - what else can we attribute the death of 26 innocent people on? Can we put all the gun nuts on a deserted island for a year, with their guns, to see if they can resolve this question?
65
There have been multiple stabbings on the streets of downtown Seattle.
Is the culprit knives?
No, the culprit is mental illness.
De-institutionalization and the inability to label clearly insane mental behavioral as anything other than a "spectrum disorder" has left our society interspersed with psychopaths and megalomaniacs.
I am not asking them to bring back the Cuckoo's Nest, but what we really need are stronger institutions to contain some of these people outside of society where they can be put back on the path to wellness. Let's explore the building of a clean, modern, and monitored asylum.
Is the culprit knives?
No, the culprit is mental illness.
De-institutionalization and the inability to label clearly insane mental behavioral as anything other than a "spectrum disorder" has left our society interspersed with psychopaths and megalomaniacs.
I am not asking them to bring back the Cuckoo's Nest, but what we really need are stronger institutions to contain some of these people outside of society where they can be put back on the path to wellness. Let's explore the building of a clean, modern, and monitored asylum.
66
@62/64: Sigh... Canada has a higher rate per capita of gun ownership than the United States. Clearly there is more at play than simply gun ownership. And at no point did I say that we should not work towards restricting the availability of fire-arms from those who are too incompetent/irresponsible to own them.
67
If it's easy for people to kill people then it will be easy for people to kill people. I hope this makes sense, but I have the sinking feeling that it won't.
http://www.bradycampaign.org/
http://www.bradycampaign.org/
69
Dems caved in just about almost everything relevant over the last 30+ years, I have difficulty understanding how gun control somehow differs from the norm.
70
Those data demonstrate guns per capita, not owners per capita. A more interesting analysis would probably be to look at violent crime per gun and violent crime per gun owner, though my stats days are long past. At any rate, my point was that there are countries which allow for some form of (rationally controlled) gun ownership, yet experience far less violent crime.
71
What America can learn from Switzerland
http://www.guncite.com/swissgun-kopel.ht…
In Cities With Little Crime, author Marshall Clinard contrasts the low crime rate in Switzerland with the higher rate in Sweden, where gun control is more extensive.
The higher Swedish rate is all the more surprising in view of Sweden's much lower population density and its ethnic homogeneity.
One of the reasons for the low crime rate, says Clinard, is that Swiss cities grew relatively slowly. Most families live for generations in the same area.
Therefore, large, heterogeneous cities with slum cultures never developed.
http://www.guncite.com/swissgun-kopel.ht…
73
Kicking a little math from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_g…
and: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cou…
it looks like 4.7x10^-5 murders/per gun occur in the united states, as opposed to 5.2x10^-5 in Canada. But I am very tired and may entirely have carried something wrong. Also, this does not reflect accidental death or non-fatal violent crime.
and: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cou…
it looks like 4.7x10^-5 murders/per gun occur in the united states, as opposed to 5.2x10^-5 in Canada. But I am very tired and may entirely have carried something wrong. Also, this does not reflect accidental death or non-fatal violent crime.
74
Democrats don't like to talk about gun control because they're hysterically concerned about appearing to prove the GOP's paranoia true.
Could be that only Nixon could go to that territory.
Could be that only Nixon could go to that territory.
75
Kicking a little math from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_g…
and: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cou…
it looks like 4.7x10^-5 murders/per gun occur in the united states, as opposed to 5.2x10^-5 in Canada. But I am very tired and may entirely have carried something wrong.
and: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cou…
it looks like 4.7x10^-5 murders/per gun occur in the united states, as opposed to 5.2x10^-5 in Canada. But I am very tired and may entirely have carried something wrong.
76
"Dialog" in gun nut speak is translated to "Don't make me leave my fucking fantasy world where I'm John Rambo and will be of use during a shooting."
77
I also agree that the Second Amendment has been misinterpreted, but my opinion doesn't matter, and your opinion doesn't matter. Short of a constitutional amendment, the Supreme Court has the last word, and resent rulings (one of them dealing with a local gun control law) have shown that this conservative Supreme Court is opposed to it. This is a big reason you don't hear anybody proposing any sweeping legislation, or at least nothing that has a realistic chance of passing.
And yet I think gun control is a better issue than people think. I say that based on the comments I've read on Slog today. Some reliably pro-gun Sloggers are going on the record as supporting some measures, such as tracking sales. I have to think that it's only a very small minority that hear about a classroomful of dead elementary school kids and say, "Whatever."
I haven't heard of any actual leadership from any politician today. That is, I haven't heard any going out on a limb against conventional wisdom and stating that we need to revisit the concept of gun control. The only ones that have are preaching to their liberal choir, so that doesn't count.
I'm not giving Obama a pass on this, because he's not serving his people if he chooses to deflect a problem in the interest of political expediency and, furthermore, there's probably no real reason to be afraid of gun control. If he went out there, like a leader, and made specific, common sense gun control proposals even a number of Republican voters would support, then the issue would be a problem for Republicans, not Dems. I thought the 2012 election showed that America is not a center-right country.
And yet I think gun control is a better issue than people think. I say that based on the comments I've read on Slog today. Some reliably pro-gun Sloggers are going on the record as supporting some measures, such as tracking sales. I have to think that it's only a very small minority that hear about a classroomful of dead elementary school kids and say, "Whatever."
I haven't heard of any actual leadership from any politician today. That is, I haven't heard any going out on a limb against conventional wisdom and stating that we need to revisit the concept of gun control. The only ones that have are preaching to their liberal choir, so that doesn't count.
I'm not giving Obama a pass on this, because he's not serving his people if he chooses to deflect a problem in the interest of political expediency and, furthermore, there's probably no real reason to be afraid of gun control. If he went out there, like a leader, and made specific, common sense gun control proposals even a number of Republican voters would support, then the issue would be a problem for Republicans, not Dems. I thought the 2012 election showed that America is not a center-right country.
78
Goldy -
The main problem here is a debate about 'gun control' that infers all of these incidents can be managed through law.
The discussion needs to be around gun safety. Given that nuts or criminals will get their hands on weapons, how can we give ourselves a chance against them? The common argument is that 'criminals' will circumvent laws. The fact of the matter is that many of these Amoklauf killings are performed by otherwise law abiding, non-career criminals. Let's start there.
Eliminate private gun transfers; require legal weapons to be transferred via a FFL. Require new weapons to have RFID tags embedded, and existing ones retrofitted when transferred. Give the rest of us a better chance to know when weapons are around us, give me the choice to stay or leave. Not perfect, but allows legal & responsible gun ownership to exist.
The main problem here is a debate about 'gun control' that infers all of these incidents can be managed through law.
The discussion needs to be around gun safety. Given that nuts or criminals will get their hands on weapons, how can we give ourselves a chance against them? The common argument is that 'criminals' will circumvent laws. The fact of the matter is that many of these Amoklauf killings are performed by otherwise law abiding, non-career criminals. Let's start there.
Eliminate private gun transfers; require legal weapons to be transferred via a FFL. Require new weapons to have RFID tags embedded, and existing ones retrofitted when transferred. Give the rest of us a better chance to know when weapons are around us, give me the choice to stay or leave. Not perfect, but allows legal & responsible gun ownership to exist.
79
#50, you're a fucking idiot. Both the U.S. and Washington State constitutions recognize an individual right to keep and bear arms. None of that will change, you fake "progressive" sack of shit.
80
@zivilisierter Wurm, well your analysis is not bad at this time of night, still need to know where you came up with "zivilisierter Wurm" as an alias though.
81
@MacGruber: German for a favorite Melvins song. Just little good-natured self-depreciation :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LLu2FAb7…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LLu2FAb7…
84
@28 is right - stopping the media blitz that always results from these tragic events is a great idea. The sick individuals that perpetrate such crimes see their going down in history as a bonus.
85
I'm genuinely curious, Goldy; what would you do different?
The guns used in CT were legally owned and registered to the victim's mother. Her son could not legally purchase guns, ammunition, or use a weapon. He murdered her and stole her pistols, neither of which by any reports were automatics or had expanded clips.
So again I have to ask: what would you have done differently than the CT legislature, if you could? Would you ban all handguns from the US (including those owned by emergency personnel, since there's no reason a cop couldn't also be murdered by their child and their weapon use in a crime.) do you have a plan on how to get 300 million legally owned weapons, and who knows how many illegally owned ones out of the country, and make sure they don't come back? Please, tell us what you would have done differently. Please.
Yesterday was not a failure to discuss or enact gun control. It was a failure of correctly implemented gun control, because you can't always predict or stop insanity. A woman was murdered, her property stolen and used in still further murders. The only failure there was the lack of humanity in her son.
The guns used in CT were legally owned and registered to the victim's mother. Her son could not legally purchase guns, ammunition, or use a weapon. He murdered her and stole her pistols, neither of which by any reports were automatics or had expanded clips.
So again I have to ask: what would you have done differently than the CT legislature, if you could? Would you ban all handguns from the US (including those owned by emergency personnel, since there's no reason a cop couldn't also be murdered by their child and their weapon use in a crime.) do you have a plan on how to get 300 million legally owned weapons, and who knows how many illegally owned ones out of the country, and make sure they don't come back? Please, tell us what you would have done differently. Please.
Yesterday was not a failure to discuss or enact gun control. It was a failure of correctly implemented gun control, because you can't always predict or stop insanity. A woman was murdered, her property stolen and used in still further murders. The only failure there was the lack of humanity in her son.
86
#77 - "I thought the 2012 election showed that America is not a center-right country" - why? Because we elected a center-right president?
#83 - I think when people say we need a discussion about guns in society, they're talking about a discussion at the highest levels of government, not anonymous commenters trading insults on an obscure blog.
#83 - I think when people say we need a discussion about guns in society, they're talking about a discussion at the highest levels of government, not anonymous commenters trading insults on an obscure blog.
87
@11: please cite your 30K murdered-by-murderingmood+gun stat.
gunpolicy.org says there are about 9000 murdered by guns in the US. (a number that's been steadily slipping downward, and dramatically slipping downward when you factor against per capita).
@16 win: "Until we make violence in general "not acceptable" in this society, we can pass all the laws in the world and it won't solve anything"
@22 - let's keep guns legal and tax bullets $100 each AND require id chips on each bullet. Register bullets, not guns. Guns will be fired much less if bullets aren't $17 for a brick of 500 (as they are at Cabela sporting goods)
gunpolicy.org says there are about 9000 murdered by guns in the US. (a number that's been steadily slipping downward, and dramatically slipping downward when you factor against per capita).
@16 win: "Until we make violence in general "not acceptable" in this society, we can pass all the laws in the world and it won't solve anything"
@22 - let's keep guns legal and tax bullets $100 each AND require id chips on each bullet. Register bullets, not guns. Guns will be fired much less if bullets aren't $17 for a brick of 500 (as they are at Cabela sporting goods)
88
The shooter did not come by the weapon he used legally. What form of "gun control" would have prevented this tragedy?
89
Heh, I want to see the dems try to institute some of the extreme gun control measures suggested on this blog - let's have Obama start!
Obama is despised by a large portion of the country now, I want to see that go to a fever pitch.
I think it would be great if this issue is what fucks the rest of his "presidency". However, I bet Obama, beyond empty gestures, does nothing. Because, just like when he jetted off to a fund-raiser the day after those Americans were murdered in Benghazi, he doesn't give a shit other than perhaps how he perceives he is expected to act.
And the rest of the democrat heroes? Only the pussies in safe districts full of liberal nuts will make any noise - like that fuckhead Schumer, and the perennial whiner McCarthy.
All the rest of the dems in states where they have a chance of losing their positions will at best say "tsk, tsk".
And that's how it will be. Suck it, libs.
Obama is despised by a large portion of the country now, I want to see that go to a fever pitch.
I think it would be great if this issue is what fucks the rest of his "presidency". However, I bet Obama, beyond empty gestures, does nothing. Because, just like when he jetted off to a fund-raiser the day after those Americans were murdered in Benghazi, he doesn't give a shit other than perhaps how he perceives he is expected to act.
And the rest of the democrat heroes? Only the pussies in safe districts full of liberal nuts will make any noise - like that fuckhead Schumer, and the perennial whiner McCarthy.
All the rest of the dems in states where they have a chance of losing their positions will at best say "tsk, tsk".
And that's how it will be. Suck it, libs.
90
Reducing the total number of guns within the system would have reduced the probability of this gun having been purchased. If that probability becomes small enough, you effectively have prevention.
Once again, the difference between liberals and conservatives is simply this: math. We've got it. You don't.
Once again, the difference between liberals and conservatives is simply this: math. We've got it. You don't.
91
There are other issues that matter, Goldy, issues which will be badly harmed if the Democrats lose elections. Taxes on the rich? Health care? The environment? Abortion? Worker's rights? Keeping the government functioning as something that helps people instead of a feeding trough for crony capitalists? Given the importance of these things, I'd say gun control isn't a hill to die on.
What's needed on this issue is nonpartisan activism to educate the public about the problems with guns to counter NRA misinformation and rebuild support for gun control back up to the point where it's safe for Democrats to take the issue back on.
What's needed on this issue is nonpartisan activism to educate the public about the problems with guns to counter NRA misinformation and rebuild support for gun control back up to the point where it's safe for Democrats to take the issue back on.
92
@90:... What? In what way is that a solution? "Well, if we have less guns we'll have less shootings." I suppose that's technically true, but considering there are 300 million legally owned guns in the country and 10,000 shooting deaths a year, it's already such a statistically small percentage of legally owned weapons involve in said shootings that you'd have to eliminate virtually all guns in the country to make a difference. Including those owned by police. And, as previously pointed out, that'll never happen. Sorry, that may count as 'math' for you, but it's not a solution.
93
So has anyone thought to ask Senate Majority Leader to be Rodney Toms what he would propose? Since he isn't a democrat again he should be able to say something, or am I missing something here. Maybe this isn't just an political problem for dems, maybe just maybe it is a political problem for R from swing districts too?
94
the gun owners and gun lovers just lie, lie lie. just know kiro quoted some expert who said "if someone is going to commit violence, they're going to commit violence." the biggest lie of all. fact: japan, england etc. have far lower rates of gun death and massacre. fact: guns make killing EZ. fact: widespread accessibilility of buns helps crazies kill. fact: in china? the knife? didn't kill anyone. some 45% of americans own guns, the nra has creatively spread these lies and talking points, and converted the consumers of guns into messengers of the nra tested message points which are mainly, lies. the last lie is that of nateman, who, conceding the point the less guns means less gun deaths as in japan, duh, thank you, then points out the nra and the gun owners already screwed us as we alreacdy got two hundred million guns lying around, so in short, nateman says to all of us, fuck you, you're going to die because we're too selfish to not have guns no matter what the facts are. so fuck you nateman and your ilk. you are to blame. it's you who spread the lie that guns don't kill, it's you who reversed the AW ban, it's you who tell all the nra sponsored lies and it's you who cynically say things like change will neverhappen. this is exactly what they said about slavery, about women not voting, about jim crow, about everything. this is what the nazi appeasers said: well he's got france, so england should make a deal with hitler. fuck you. you tell lies spread guns around then plead there's too many guns to get rid of them. let me tell you something. there's not. you hace no need for a gun, the killer's mom had no need of guns, no one needs assault weapons, gun control is possible and is in place in about 30 nations and its lying fuckers like you who deny climate change, denied the need for vaccination, and who deny the need and effectiveness of gun control. fuck. you. you. are. to. blame.
More...
95
@10 remains the single most laughable would-be troll on slog. I reiterate my offer to pay cash money to whichever staffer forcibly changes his handle to "StrangersWeakestTroll".But Dr. Dope, you already hold that title, and I really don't see you giving it up. That and your uncontrollable flatulence are all you have. Interestingly, these are the qualities that put you right in the middle of the Active Shooter Demographic...
96
@94: Aw, muffin. I was hoping you'd rear your head. You finished jerking off to the news reports now? I hoped you' cleaned your own semen off your chin before you started typing. I know how aroused this all makes you. May I suggest actually reading what people write before responding, hun? I can help with the big words if you like. I know you have trouble with that whole civilized discourse thing. Seriously, you and the homophobic troll should just start rage fuckin. You'd feel better.
98
@85: ban AWs, limit other gun ownership to about 4% of the population meaning peopl ewho a ctually hunt or need a handgun e.g. to carry cash home at night. as in england. so a yahoo like this kid's mom doesn't have a bunch of guns lying around which you call legal but which in fact are part of the pool of guns easily taken. did you notice the outrageious lie at @66 refuted by 68? you guys just lie, lie lie. the USA with gun ownership rates about three times higher than canada this doesn't tell the whole story because in canda and england and such even if you own a gun there's all kinds of bans on types of guns we don't have here plus all kinds of licensing hurdles that basically make it a pain in the ass to own a gun so the average suburbanite or town dweller just isn't goingt to have one. here in the usa, we buy them like fucking high def TV sets. @88: stop being such an imbecile, the form of gun controls they have in canada japan england ireland wales france germany sweden switzerland (if you have lots of guns it's okay if they're all registered and you're in the militia) denmark norway iceland netherlands...jeezy you imbecile, you know damn well what we mean, we mean total bans on many classes of guns and highly severe restrictions on who can own a simple handgun. things that get the total ownership level down, down down . aha, then we come to the nateman argument which is fuck you all, you lose because we in the nra we gun loving gun owners already spread guns all over you can't do anything about it.
the smug position. like white men enjoying power saying it will never change. like climate deniers saying oh well even if there is climate change we can't stop it now. the denialism religion that just so conveniently lets you keep your guns and feel smug and removed from this violence, when in fact, you are to blame, you and your ilk who told us these lies that guns would keep us safe. it will change because enough of you will become ashamed of your own lies and your massively stupid gun ownership, when enough of you have crazy 20 year old nephews who take your guns and shoot up school kids. some of you will bcome ashamed. that's how it will change, nateman.
More...
the smug position. like white men enjoying power saying it will never change. like climate deniers saying oh well even if there is climate change we can't stop it now. the denialism religion that just so conveniently lets you keep your guns and feel smug and removed from this violence, when in fact, you are to blame, you and your ilk who told us these lies that guns would keep us safe. it will change because enough of you will become ashamed of your own lies and your massively stupid gun ownership, when enough of you have crazy 20 year old nephews who take your guns and shoot up school kids. some of you will bcome ashamed. that's how it will change, nateman.
99
@96: you made a point that there's too many guns for us to lower the rate of gun ownership. I responded. you couldn't answer, so you call names. this after years and years of lies by you and your ilk, that gun make us safe, that guns don't kill, that gun control doesn't work. oh we can point to the data all we want, we can point to japan, to england, to australia which actually took back in guns, and you don't care. let me tell you why nateman. it's because you are an asshole. your series of lies and defenses breaks down one by one, you got no answer, you ulimately are a fucking coward, so I will say it again: enough of you will become so ashamed that you are cuasing the ez access to guns and enabling the gun violence, we will win in the end. so fuck you again. you are responsible. your series of lies goes from guns don't kill to gun control doesn't work to the second amendment this or that and every single one of them is a lie including the fact that somehow we couldn't get back the guns. we can and will so fuck you, asshole, it's folks like you who enable the criminals and crazies to steal your guns and you're too fucking stupid and shameless to admit it. you coward.
100
@97: I do indeed, though my words have less to do with porn than the amusement and contempt the gun troll's lack of grammar, eloquence, and rational thought. There's no point in trying to have a civilized discussion with the yeasty little discharge. And he does take my mind off the tragedy of what actually happened. So I suppose I should thank the filthy little Santorum stain for that.
101
Connecticut has some of the strictest gun control laws in the country. There is no correlation between gun control, local or national, and a decrease in mass killings or even just crime in general. Before Virginia tech the worst school violence happened in the first quarter of the last century. The guy used fertilizer to blow up a rural school. Evil will do evil no matter what.
102
92,
The guns were registered to his mother. if she didn't have guns in her house, he wouldn't have had them.She'd be alive today and so would all those kids if she had not bought guns.
The guns were registered to his mother. if she didn't have guns in her house, he wouldn't have had them.She'd be alive today and so would all those kids if she had not bought guns.
103
You know, it sounds all macho and butch when you say "from my cold, dead hands." but it sounds a little sick when it's the cold dead hands of a 5 year old at an elementary school, and 19 of his little classmates.
You want to die in a hail of bullets? Go join the military. Stop jeopardizing the lives of our children so you can cling to some outdated ideology and pretend that you're John Wayne. Your ego is not worth the life of our kids.
You want to die in a hail of bullets? Go join the military. Stop jeopardizing the lives of our children so you can cling to some outdated ideology and pretend that you're John Wayne. Your ego is not worth the life of our kids.
104
Democrats are sympathetic of teabaggers so no military cuts or gun control talk or ignorant conservatives will whine.
105
@102&103: it's got nothing to do with macho posturing. I don't own guns for home protection, and I don't expect I'll ever use them in that way. But your argument is specious. If her son wasn't crazy, the mother wouldn't be dead and he wouldn't have killed all those kids. If people didn't have alcohol, no one would ever be killed by a drunk driver. If men didn't have dicks there wouldn't be nearly as much rape. We do not prohibit, within reason, what people can own, do, or consume because of what the insane or criminal will do with those items or substances. Now, your idea of reason may be different than mine, but your argument seems to be we should ban everything potentially lethal because of what some people might do with it. I tend to disagree with that approach, because it never ends. Unless you think this poor, dead mother of a murderous psychopath should have preemptive lay known her son was a lunatic and never purchased a gun in the first place? And how, exactly, do you think she was supposed to know that? Are we to blame the parents of every serial killer put there? Punish them for what their offspring does?
If you think there aren't many, many rational gun owners out there grieving just as hard as you right now, you are sadly mistaken. But I cannot blame a woman who died for her son's actions just because she owned a gun. I can't blame an inanimate object for what an adult did with it. And I can't blame the US or the state of CT for failing to enact some sort of legislation which would magically keep a stolen gun out of this man's hands.
If you think there aren't many, many rational gun owners out there grieving just as hard as you right now, you are sadly mistaken. But I cannot blame a woman who died for her son's actions just because she owned a gun. I can't blame an inanimate object for what an adult did with it. And I can't blame the US or the state of CT for failing to enact some sort of legislation which would magically keep a stolen gun out of this man's hands.
106
Since president Obama was elected in 08 paranoid cons have been stockpiling guns and ammo.
A teabagger I work with spends half his pay every month on ammo or guns because the guys at the gun shop tell him Obama is coming for his guns. He also sends money to the NRA for the same reason meanwhile he can't even afford gas for his f500 truck he drives 45 miles each way to work let alone toys for his 7 kids because all the cash goes right to guns.
A teabagger I work with spends half his pay every month on ammo or guns because the guys at the gun shop tell him Obama is coming for his guns. He also sends money to the NRA for the same reason meanwhile he can't even afford gas for his f500 truck he drives 45 miles each way to work let alone toys for his 7 kids because all the cash goes right to guns.
107
The other thing Dems don't want to talk about is how the neoliberal educational policies of Bush 2 and Obama /Duncan-the-dumbshit have royally screwed up public education. With the push to test the shit out of American kids, many of their more creative outlets are gone. Music, art, recess, drama all get cut in the race to focus on test scores, and dwindling funds are spent on test prep materials rather than music teachers, counselors, or recess aides. After school programs are cut, so more kids are going home to empty houses, with hours of unstructured and unsupervised time in which they sit in front of the TV or computer and absorb more and more of the violence, then mimic what they see. Mental health services have been cut, social services cut, school psychs spend most of their limited time testing kids for special Ed - usually working at 2-3 buildings each - and never get to really know the kids, nor are they available to help spot abnormal behavior and get interventions before shit like this happens. Ask any teacher or school employee - they'll tell you that more and more kids are showing up to school with major mental health issues due to poverty, neglect, abuse, addiction, and other environmental factors (pesticides? Pollution? Lead paint?), yet all that matters is TEST SCORES AND DATA.
We dehumanize our children with this focus on data rather than focusing on the child. Video games and TV dehumanize life by glamorizing guns and violence, prizing gunplay and a fake show of strength over using words to solve problems. We test food stamp recipients for drugs, but any jackass can buy a gun. States like Utah and Arizona pride themselves on how loose their gun regulations are even as they cut more funding to schools. Legislators waste time over bullshit legislation with their vaginal probe obsession, meanwhile more and more kids are being stuffed into decrepit schools with asbestos and rusty pipes and rats and being told that all that matters is their test scores. Guns are only part of the problem. We need to look at how we treat and value our children, and make our actions match the lip-service so many of us offer when shit like this happens. School is cheaper than jail. Intervene early and maybe we can prevent more of this from happening.
More...
We dehumanize our children with this focus on data rather than focusing on the child. Video games and TV dehumanize life by glamorizing guns and violence, prizing gunplay and a fake show of strength over using words to solve problems. We test food stamp recipients for drugs, but any jackass can buy a gun. States like Utah and Arizona pride themselves on how loose their gun regulations are even as they cut more funding to schools. Legislators waste time over bullshit legislation with their vaginal probe obsession, meanwhile more and more kids are being stuffed into decrepit schools with asbestos and rusty pipes and rats and being told that all that matters is their test scores. Guns are only part of the problem. We need to look at how we treat and value our children, and make our actions match the lip-service so many of us offer when shit like this happens. School is cheaper than jail. Intervene early and maybe we can prevent more of this from happening.
109
As far as Inslee not doing anything 4 gun control, didnt he vote for the Brady bill when he was U S Rep from Yakima dist? And the NRA helped sink his re-election, as a result. I wouldn't blame from being a bit gunshy on this issue. After all, he hasn't been swarn in yet.
110
@105, keep rationalizing. You're almost there. A couple more comments and you won't even feel a shred of your own culpability anymore. You've about covered the gamut of excuses here, but I'm sure you can squeak out one or two more. Come on, motherfucker; America is counting on you.
112
@110: Oh please, you self-righteous tool. You've clearly never heard of anyone taking responsibility for their own actions. Get back to me the day after I shoot someone. Until then, and I mean this with all sincerity, take your holier-than-thou attitude, your casual disregard for actual facts, and your black & white view of the world and shove them so far up your ass you rupture something. You're no help to this issue, I'd guess to any issue. And please believe me when I tell you your attitude makes gun owners even more determined to do whatever the fuck we want. I'd never give money to the NRA or any of the other gun addicts out there, but goddamn if you don't make it tempting.
113
105,
A crazed murderer with an automatic assault rifle= tens if not hundreds killed.
A crazed murderer with a kitchen knife = 5 dead at most.
Guns serve one sole purpose; to take life, to kill, to render something living dead. Guns may not be used to prepare food. They are useless tools for the purpose of opening plastic wrap. They are not helpful in opening a stuck door. So lets stop pretending that a gun and a kitchen knife are equivalent, in terms of their lethality or use.
The issue here is not how do we cure human insanity. Humans have been wrestling with that issue for all of recorded history, and have made little if any progress. To say that the solution to mass killings will have to wait until we have extinguished the homicidal urge from the human species is to say that we shall wait forever, that this problem shall never be solved.
We can however reduce the impact of the homicidal. We can reduce the number of persons capable of being killed in a single act of violence by a single person. And we can do that by reducing access to firearms in America.
Your ideology does not match my epidemiology. The numbers are quite clear; we have a problem with mass violence in America. This problem is severe, and it results in preventable death and disability for an unacceptably high number of our countrymen. Were the pathogen a virus or a bacterium, emergency measures would be implemented to contain the epidemic. Were its origin a chemical spill, herculean efforts would be made to remediate the environment. You would not hear advocates for the right to die of ebola or cancer declaring that the doctors of our country can only make an effort to save our children from SIDS after they pry the IV from your "cold, dead hands". Nor would we see major lobbying groups speaking out on behalf of cyanide or arsenic, and the right of Americans to drink as much of it as they damn well please in our tap water.
But we do see you here, pleading for the rights of our children to be murdered in a hail of bullets. We do see you equivocate the banning of assault rifles with that of kitchen knives.
And how insane you appear to me. How incomprehensibly monstrous do you have to get to argue the case you are arguing. The mother of this murderer bought her guns for the same reason you bought yours. If your son went on a rampage and shot 20 kids, would you still advocate for his right to bear arms?
I do not understand you.
More...
A crazed murderer with an automatic assault rifle= tens if not hundreds killed.
A crazed murderer with a kitchen knife = 5 dead at most.
Guns serve one sole purpose; to take life, to kill, to render something living dead. Guns may not be used to prepare food. They are useless tools for the purpose of opening plastic wrap. They are not helpful in opening a stuck door. So lets stop pretending that a gun and a kitchen knife are equivalent, in terms of their lethality or use.
The issue here is not how do we cure human insanity. Humans have been wrestling with that issue for all of recorded history, and have made little if any progress. To say that the solution to mass killings will have to wait until we have extinguished the homicidal urge from the human species is to say that we shall wait forever, that this problem shall never be solved.
We can however reduce the impact of the homicidal. We can reduce the number of persons capable of being killed in a single act of violence by a single person. And we can do that by reducing access to firearms in America.
Your ideology does not match my epidemiology. The numbers are quite clear; we have a problem with mass violence in America. This problem is severe, and it results in preventable death and disability for an unacceptably high number of our countrymen. Were the pathogen a virus or a bacterium, emergency measures would be implemented to contain the epidemic. Were its origin a chemical spill, herculean efforts would be made to remediate the environment. You would not hear advocates for the right to die of ebola or cancer declaring that the doctors of our country can only make an effort to save our children from SIDS after they pry the IV from your "cold, dead hands". Nor would we see major lobbying groups speaking out on behalf of cyanide or arsenic, and the right of Americans to drink as much of it as they damn well please in our tap water.
But we do see you here, pleading for the rights of our children to be murdered in a hail of bullets. We do see you equivocate the banning of assault rifles with that of kitchen knives.
And how insane you appear to me. How incomprehensibly monstrous do you have to get to argue the case you are arguing. The mother of this murderer bought her guns for the same reason you bought yours. If your son went on a rampage and shot 20 kids, would you still advocate for his right to bear arms?
I do not understand you.
114
@112, Does part of the thrill of owning a gun come from parading you responsibility around each time one of your lesser brothers-in-arms has a meltdown and kills a bunch of people? "Get back to me the day after I shoot someone;" yeah, but that day will never come because you're soooo responsible. You have the power to do evil, but don't, so it makes you feel good.
115
#113, learn the difference between an automatic and a semi-automatic weapon. They are not the same thing. I've never heard of an automatic weapon being used in one of these massacres.
116
115,
I should not have to learn that difference. The fact that I have to know what a Bushmaster is or that there are things called Glocks or SIGs, because someone stupid enough to buy one wound up dead along with 20 of her students because of it, and now I have to understand these vagueries in order to make some sense this story, sickens me.
Do you have to understand the difference between El Tor and classic cholera? No, you don't, because we've made an effort to banish both of these from our drinking water. And if we made a similar effort to abolish gun violence, the rest of us wouldn't have to obsess over the details of your sick hobby.
I should not have to learn that difference. The fact that I have to know what a Bushmaster is or that there are things called Glocks or SIGs, because someone stupid enough to buy one wound up dead along with 20 of her students because of it, and now I have to understand these vagueries in order to make some sense this story, sickens me.
Do you have to understand the difference between El Tor and classic cholera? No, you don't, because we've made an effort to banish both of these from our drinking water. And if we made a similar effort to abolish gun violence, the rest of us wouldn't have to obsess over the details of your sick hobby.
118
117,
At least I have the intelligence required to see the value of human life, and to understand that it is greater than the value of your ideology.
At least I have the intelligence required to see the value of human life, and to understand that it is greater than the value of your ideology.
119
@113: I don't need you to understand me. I don't need you to approve of what I do or what I own. The facts remain the same: guns are legal and will remain that way. People like you always talk about the purpose of guns only being to kill, as though someone stabbed to death or run down by a drunk driver is somehow less dead because they weren't killed with a gun. You are willing to split every hair necessary in order to be right about this, even though you lose thousands if not millions of allies who'd be perfectly willing to enact same gun control due to your fanaticism. Dead is dead. It's easier to kill with guns, yes. But many, many more people die every year from substance abuse and carelessness than do from gun violence. Where's your self-aggrandizing outrage for them? You have the same reason people always do when they try to take something away from someone else: you don't like guns. Tough shit. I don't like murder, and I'll choose to point my outrage at the people who actually deserve it; the murderers.
@114: I have the ability to bury a knife in your belly, run you down with my car, and make explosives out of fertilizer. I have the ability to rape, to assault, to burn your house down. I choose not to. Being human is making that choice day in and day out. I have no need to feel good about choosing not to shoot you because, like all people not brain damaged or evil, I simply make that choice. Do you need to be made to feel good about not hitting someone with your car? For not punching your spouse? Again: it's not about death or right or wrong for you. It's that you don't like guns or the people who own them. That's your choice.
@114: I have the ability to bury a knife in your belly, run you down with my car, and make explosives out of fertilizer. I have the ability to rape, to assault, to burn your house down. I choose not to. Being human is making that choice day in and day out. I have no need to feel good about choosing not to shoot you because, like all people not brain damaged or evil, I simply make that choice. Do you need to be made to feel good about not hitting someone with your car? For not punching your spouse? Again: it's not about death or right or wrong for you. It's that you don't like guns or the people who own them. That's your choice.
120
#118, ah yes, the fake-o "progressive" whose willful stupidity renders him superior. On the flip side of your coin is your cousin Sarah Palin, who believes in the superiority of her stupidity.
My "ideology" here is that you should know what you're talking about.
My "ideology" here is that you should know what you're talking about.
121
119,
No, you do need me to understand you. Because I vote. And like many of my countrymen of similar mind, I am going to vote for politicians that support gun control. If there are none with the spine or liver to support such legislation, then we'll do it by ballot initiative.
And you can pry my ballot from my cold, dead hands.
No, you do need me to understand you. Because I vote. And like many of my countrymen of similar mind, I am going to vote for politicians that support gun control. If there are none with the spine or liver to support such legislation, then we'll do it by ballot initiative.
And you can pry my ballot from my cold, dead hands.
122
@NateMan, the shooter's mother was a gun nut. She owned a bunch of them, including a high-powered Bushmaster assault rifle that turns out to be the only weapon used in the massacre, even though the shooter also stole two of his mother's pistols.
Even though I think assault rifle bans are stupid because an assault rifle is nothing more than a style, I also think that the "assault rifle" style says "gun nut." Not against the law to be a gun nut, but it's fair game to call a gun nut a gun nut.
Aside from that, I have to wonder why the woman kept those guns in her house when she was aware of her son's mental problems. She was an avid target shooter. Why not keep the guns at the range if she was letting her son live at her house? Did she have a gun safe, and was it locked? Why weren't there trigger locks on her pistols?
Given that she knew of her son's mental problems, and that she allowed him to live with her, it seems like she had a duty to exercise much more care than she did. I hope more information will emerge that will help answer these questions.
Unfortunately, we have a lot of idiots like the mayor of Seattle, and aggressively stupid whackjobs like #118, who refuse to look at the details. There are also gun nuts who have instantly gone into uber-defensive mode, which is just as bad.
Even though I think assault rifle bans are stupid because an assault rifle is nothing more than a style, I also think that the "assault rifle" style says "gun nut." Not against the law to be a gun nut, but it's fair game to call a gun nut a gun nut.
Aside from that, I have to wonder why the woman kept those guns in her house when she was aware of her son's mental problems. She was an avid target shooter. Why not keep the guns at the range if she was letting her son live at her house? Did she have a gun safe, and was it locked? Why weren't there trigger locks on her pistols?
Given that she knew of her son's mental problems, and that she allowed him to live with her, it seems like she had a duty to exercise much more care than she did. I hope more information will emerge that will help answer these questions.
Unfortunately, we have a lot of idiots like the mayor of Seattle, and aggressively stupid whackjobs like #118, who refuse to look at the details. There are also gun nuts who have instantly gone into uber-defensive mode, which is just as bad.
124
@121: And, again, no I don't. I live in MA. I'm used to dealing with gun control, and I'm totally fine with it. I'm licensed, my guns are trigger locked and registered, and I'm comfortable jumping thru the hoops I have to in order to keep them. And because I vote too, and so do lots and lots of people with guns, I know they're not going away. I also know gun control isn't going to end gun violence, not until we do something about the conditions that cause it. But by all means, put all your fantasy eggs in the dream basket of gun control.
125
@122: You're right all the way down the board. I've stayed off Facebook for the last 2 days because I don't have to see any of the stupid 'if the teacher had been armed all the kids would still be alive' memes. Gun nuts exist, and I hate them as much as I do any extremist. I don't know if this woman was one; I don't know if her guns were in a safe or trigger locked, and if they weren't then yes, she bears some culpability. It's also possible they were and her son knew where the key was. My wife certainly knows where mine is, even though she doesn't like guns. As far as why they were still in the house with someone with mental problems, I'd guess (since I have no alternative or information) she never thought her son was capable of such a thing. I think most parents would make that mistake.
126
#125, we'll see what emerges in the days ahead, but the initial signs are that there was quite the gun culture in that household. I'm in favor of keeping guns for self-defense, hunting, and target shooting, even though I don't do it.
I also think that gun ownership entails a very high level of responsibility on the owner's part, and that regulations should be rigorous to that end. I sense that we agree on these things.
There are lots of the usual stupid things being said. By far the worst on this end of the country that I've heard about is the crap that spewed out of the mayor of Seattle's mouth yesterday. The asshole is up for re-election in 2013, so he decided to use the Connecticut massacre to rattle the usual fake-o "progressive" chains. Really disgusting.
Back to the shooter's mother: I'm writing with CNN in the background, and they report that, in addition to the three guns the shooter stole after killing his mother, three more rifles were found in the house. The New York Times reports that the mother liked to take her kids to the range with her.
I'm going to be looking carefully for more information about this family. Sounds like a screwed up bunch.
I also think that gun ownership entails a very high level of responsibility on the owner's part, and that regulations should be rigorous to that end. I sense that we agree on these things.
There are lots of the usual stupid things being said. By far the worst on this end of the country that I've heard about is the crap that spewed out of the mayor of Seattle's mouth yesterday. The asshole is up for re-election in 2013, so he decided to use the Connecticut massacre to rattle the usual fake-o "progressive" chains. Really disgusting.
Back to the shooter's mother: I'm writing with CNN in the background, and they report that, in addition to the three guns the shooter stole after killing his mother, three more rifles were found in the house. The New York Times reports that the mother liked to take her kids to the range with her.
I'm going to be looking carefully for more information about this family. Sounds like a screwed up bunch.
127
@126: Yes, they certainly do. And I wish these murderous assholes could just kill themselves when they want to end it.
And I absolutely believe in strict regulation. Instant background checks, prohibitions on gun ownership for anyone convicted of any violent crime, DUI, restraining order, etc. I'm also fully in favor of mandatory trigger locks for every weapon purchased, up to and including fingerprint technology. And any weapons violation should come with incredibly strict penalties.
Things can be and should be safer. It won't stop these tragedies, but I want them gone as much as anyone else does.
And I absolutely believe in strict regulation. Instant background checks, prohibitions on gun ownership for anyone convicted of any violent crime, DUI, restraining order, etc. I'm also fully in favor of mandatory trigger locks for every weapon purchased, up to and including fingerprint technology. And any weapons violation should come with incredibly strict penalties.
Things can be and should be safer. It won't stop these tragedies, but I want them gone as much as anyone else does.
128
You're 100% right on two things, NateMan. I don't like guns. I don't like them one damn bit. And until gunslingers like you can guarantee that only your own children will get slaughtered by them, I won't like people who own them. All your other statements can use some fact checking.
129
Because there are so many emotional aspects to this most recent outrage, I cannot use my real name, though I seriously considered doing so.
I have been involved with law enforcement for a majority of my life. I am nearing 60 years now. I began as a Cadet with the police in a little local community. I did my undergraduate work with the Thruston County Coroners Office under the late Dr. Mark Papworth and was blessed to be a student of Dr. Papworth at The Evergreen State College. I spent 10 years as a physical protection officer on private contract to the Federal Government. I have a BA in Humanities from The Evergreen State College. At the time, law enforcements pressing concern was the capture of the Green River Killer. I've been around for a while is the idea I'm trying to communicate.
I would like to address this most horrible act through my own personal experiences then, and it is my sincere hope that all who are calling on weapons bans think clearly and carefully upon this after reading what I have to say.
I know what evil is, both at the street level where a coroner deals with the reality of murdered childern, and the reality of the well meaning whom pave the road to hell with their good intentions. Specifically, legislation spun from lobbists with a corporate agenda.
Let not then your emotions become a trigger to greater evil, for evil loves nothing more than to use good to do it's bidding.
There is an enemy inside our gates. That seems clear enough, but what isn't obviously clear is that an agenda is at work. We are living in dangerous times with dangerous people, and history shows us all that the human conditon is unchanged.
We need to be aware of corporate control over the media. Today just five corporations own virtually 90 percent of all the media inside the Untied States. Propaganda is not just a word. It's a necessary componet to an enslaved society.
Every time something like this happens it is fully exploited, or as Henery Kissinger once said;"Never let a good crisis go to waste."
The nature of a policeman isn't to assume accidents just happen. That history is accidental. That is extremely dangerous for a nation as well. Each day our Armies are invovled in the affairs of other nations, and our economy, such as it is, is largely built around weapons and releated materials. We have a system that Katherine Austin Fitts dubbed, "The Central Bank and Warfare Model."
Yet again, we are all being lead to believe that these shooting are "once again" the work of madmen, probably working alone, ect. Maybe yes, maybe not, but is it accidental that we have first the corruption of our freedoms as a result of 9/11 and now through the crimes of yet another we are all once again going to be asked to sacrifice another liberty that protects your freedom in your own home, in the street, or to speak as you will about the rules and rulers? This is what is actually happening.
An adult takes responsibility. An adult knows the world is potentially dangerous. This is what the world always has been and always will be. Those who seek safety by removing the rights of others out of fear for themselves and their own safety are the most dangerous ones of all.
They are the irresponsible ones, the ones that call others conspiracy theorists. They want no obligations on themselves to act the adult. They want a Nanny State, but yet they have no idea what the "Nanny State" would have of them: Remember Tianamen Square? Yet these people conceive not that their own childern would then face tanks unarmed because of their own fears today over the neighbor owning an inferior weapon.
Do not think I do not cry for the people. I cry for all of you. My purpose in beginning as I did was to show you that I do have some knowledge of the nanny state and God help all of us if this where our nation ends itself upon that sword because of weaklings.
A debate over gun ownership at any level is a debate over enslavement. There is no rational or logical way to arm your own self at a lesser level than a potential agressor.
Finally, neither my own self, nor other good men and women work any longer to protect you all because you will not listen to people like myself and have made us the enforcers of the crime bosses. Cops don't want to be hated, yet you keep giving the enemies of all of us the tools which have weakened our liberty, and now threaten to outright enslave us all. For God's Sake...do you think that a german veteran of the first world war thought he too might end up in a death camp? Please wake the hell up.
More...
I have been involved with law enforcement for a majority of my life. I am nearing 60 years now. I began as a Cadet with the police in a little local community. I did my undergraduate work with the Thruston County Coroners Office under the late Dr. Mark Papworth and was blessed to be a student of Dr. Papworth at The Evergreen State College. I spent 10 years as a physical protection officer on private contract to the Federal Government. I have a BA in Humanities from The Evergreen State College. At the time, law enforcements pressing concern was the capture of the Green River Killer. I've been around for a while is the idea I'm trying to communicate.
I would like to address this most horrible act through my own personal experiences then, and it is my sincere hope that all who are calling on weapons bans think clearly and carefully upon this after reading what I have to say.
I know what evil is, both at the street level where a coroner deals with the reality of murdered childern, and the reality of the well meaning whom pave the road to hell with their good intentions. Specifically, legislation spun from lobbists with a corporate agenda.
Let not then your emotions become a trigger to greater evil, for evil loves nothing more than to use good to do it's bidding.
There is an enemy inside our gates. That seems clear enough, but what isn't obviously clear is that an agenda is at work. We are living in dangerous times with dangerous people, and history shows us all that the human conditon is unchanged.
We need to be aware of corporate control over the media. Today just five corporations own virtually 90 percent of all the media inside the Untied States. Propaganda is not just a word. It's a necessary componet to an enslaved society.
Every time something like this happens it is fully exploited, or as Henery Kissinger once said;"Never let a good crisis go to waste."
The nature of a policeman isn't to assume accidents just happen. That history is accidental. That is extremely dangerous for a nation as well. Each day our Armies are invovled in the affairs of other nations, and our economy, such as it is, is largely built around weapons and releated materials. We have a system that Katherine Austin Fitts dubbed, "The Central Bank and Warfare Model."
Yet again, we are all being lead to believe that these shooting are "once again" the work of madmen, probably working alone, ect. Maybe yes, maybe not, but is it accidental that we have first the corruption of our freedoms as a result of 9/11 and now through the crimes of yet another we are all once again going to be asked to sacrifice another liberty that protects your freedom in your own home, in the street, or to speak as you will about the rules and rulers? This is what is actually happening.
An adult takes responsibility. An adult knows the world is potentially dangerous. This is what the world always has been and always will be. Those who seek safety by removing the rights of others out of fear for themselves and their own safety are the most dangerous ones of all.
They are the irresponsible ones, the ones that call others conspiracy theorists. They want no obligations on themselves to act the adult. They want a Nanny State, but yet they have no idea what the "Nanny State" would have of them: Remember Tianamen Square? Yet these people conceive not that their own childern would then face tanks unarmed because of their own fears today over the neighbor owning an inferior weapon.
Do not think I do not cry for the people. I cry for all of you. My purpose in beginning as I did was to show you that I do have some knowledge of the nanny state and God help all of us if this where our nation ends itself upon that sword because of weaklings.
A debate over gun ownership at any level is a debate over enslavement. There is no rational or logical way to arm your own self at a lesser level than a potential agressor.
Finally, neither my own self, nor other good men and women work any longer to protect you all because you will not listen to people like myself and have made us the enforcers of the crime bosses. Cops don't want to be hated, yet you keep giving the enemies of all of us the tools which have weakened our liberty, and now threaten to outright enslave us all. For God's Sake...do you think that a german veteran of the first world war thought he too might end up in a death camp? Please wake the hell up.
130
David Frum today:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/20…
@127, you say you're for those things because you know they are politically impossible. You're exactly like all the rest. The people who make even the tiniest moves toward gun regulation impossible are YOU, not hotheads like me. That's why I reject your sniveling bullshit about "dialog". There is no dialog. There's only assholes like you protecting your asshole rights. The right to own guns is an asshole right.
And I'll say: I'll accept no lectures about "sensitivity" on days of tragedy like today from people who work the other 364 days of the year against any attempt to prevent such tragedies.
It's bad enough to have a gun lobby. It's the last straw when that lobby also sets up itself as the civility police. It may not be politically possible to do anything about the prevalence of weapons of mass murder. But it damn well ought to be possible to complain about them - and about the people who condone them.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/20…
@127, you say you're for those things because you know they are politically impossible. You're exactly like all the rest. The people who make even the tiniest moves toward gun regulation impossible are YOU, not hotheads like me. That's why I reject your sniveling bullshit about "dialog". There is no dialog. There's only assholes like you protecting your asshole rights. The right to own guns is an asshole right.
131
@130: Feel free to put whatever thoughts in my head you like, Fnarf. Whatever makes you sleep better at night. That doesn't make you right, and it doesn't make you any less part of the problem than I am. But fuck it. I'm an asshole, and you're a miserable shit. Guess that puts us right next to each other.
132
#51:
Can you point out to me the exact wording in the Bill Of Rights where it says, that I have the right to be armed ONLY with 18th Century technology weaponry?
In fact point out to me ANY reference to guns or firearms in particular in the Constitution.
The Founding Fathers were very smart men to put it mildly. I think if they meant to be specific about muskets or guns in general, they would have stipulated it.
By the way, the Bill Of Rights does not give me or grant me ANY rights. It enumerates them, i.e. it recognizes rights that pre-existed the the Constitution.
Can you point out to me the exact wording in the Bill Of Rights where it says, that I have the right to be armed ONLY with 18th Century technology weaponry?
In fact point out to me ANY reference to guns or firearms in particular in the Constitution.
The Founding Fathers were very smart men to put it mildly. I think if they meant to be specific about muskets or guns in general, they would have stipulated it.
By the way, the Bill Of Rights does not give me or grant me ANY rights. It enumerates them, i.e. it recognizes rights that pre-existed the the Constitution.
133
@NateMan, I appreciate your reason. It's hard to remain reasonable in the face of fake-o "progressive" posturing of the kind that Seattle's "progressives" excel at. Hang in there, and be the voice of reason among gun owners.
134
#128
>>And until gunslingers like you can guarantee that only your own children will get slaughtered by them, I won't like people who own them.
First off, I guarantee no such thing when presented with such moronically formulated and expressed conditions.
Will you hold cops and the all the various armed trough-swilling Fed agencies to the same standard? Why aren't you baying for all their Mil grade toys hmmm? Unlike we "gunslingers", they actually get to wield full-auto-zomg-killing-machine-weapons-of-war.
And whether statist fuck-sticks like you and the rest of the commie filth on this CapHill circle jerk of a blog LIKE me or not, I give not a flying fuck
>>And until gunslingers like you can guarantee that only your own children will get slaughtered by them, I won't like people who own them.
First off, I guarantee no such thing when presented with such moronically formulated and expressed conditions.
Will you hold cops and the all the various armed trough-swilling Fed agencies to the same standard? Why aren't you baying for all their Mil grade toys hmmm? Unlike we "gunslingers", they actually get to wield full-auto-zomg-killing-machine-weapons-of-war.
And whether statist fuck-sticks like you and the rest of the commie filth on this CapHill circle jerk of a blog LIKE me or not, I give not a flying fuck
135
#130
>>There is no dialog. There's only assholes like you protecting your asshole rights. The right to own guns is an asshole right.
Exactly! Me and I'm sure many others like me, are done having a dialog with assholes like you. I won't have a dialog, a "conversation" or meet you in the middle, or be "reasonable" according to a standard defined by shitstains like you. I'm done talking and being reasonable - and I'm far from alone - , because it's never enough is it?
I guess it's your move.
>>There is no dialog. There's only assholes like you protecting your asshole rights. The right to own guns is an asshole right.
Exactly! Me and I'm sure many others like me, are done having a dialog with assholes like you. I won't have a dialog, a "conversation" or meet you in the middle, or be "reasonable" according to a standard defined by shitstains like you. I'm done talking and being reasonable - and I'm far from alone - , because it's never enough is it?
I guess it's your move.
137
Fnarf, did you read what I wrote? You are only to speak as you do because of gun owners. Not in spite of them. Would you prefer that you need to stand on a soap box inside a specific area of Volunteer Park to speak your mind whislt a policeman takes notes of your blather? That is what the eutopia of the Unemployed Kindom has and has had for several hundred years now.
You are probably quite unaware that 15 thousand people recently surrounded Parliament calling upon the police to arrest criminals inside accussed of high crimes. Why do you suppose you've no information about that?
You are probably unaware that a US Senator on the banking committee had an 18 year old illegal alien sex offender working as a Senate Page on the day this mass shooting happened. Accidental is it?
Yet in your mind, it would be better to disarm everyone else and this is because you are unaware of the reality of the world around you. You would rather we all pay for your childish delusions and desires of irresponsibility than to accept your duty as an adult.
You need to reconsider your allegiance to the notion that a disarmed population would be a safer society. History refutes that in toto as the most dangerous and delusional idea of all.
You are probably quite unaware that 15 thousand people recently surrounded Parliament calling upon the police to arrest criminals inside accussed of high crimes. Why do you suppose you've no information about that?
You are probably unaware that a US Senator on the banking committee had an 18 year old illegal alien sex offender working as a Senate Page on the day this mass shooting happened. Accidental is it?
Yet in your mind, it would be better to disarm everyone else and this is because you are unaware of the reality of the world around you. You would rather we all pay for your childish delusions and desires of irresponsibility than to accept your duty as an adult.
You need to reconsider your allegiance to the notion that a disarmed population would be a safer society. History refutes that in toto as the most dangerous and delusional idea of all.
138
#114
>>@112, Does part of the thrill of owning a gun come from parading you responsibility
You really have some issues there don't you Disorganized?
>>around each time one of your lesser brothers-in-arms
That POS was no brother-in-arms of mine or anyone I know
>>@112, Does part of the thrill of owning a gun come from parading you responsibility
You really have some issues there don't you Disorganized?
>>around each time one of your lesser brothers-in-arms
That POS was no brother-in-arms of mine or anyone I know
141
@138 brother-in-arms, partner in crime, whatever. Your dumb little hobby blows up every goddamned month in some mass shooting. Buy a taser, get a cross bow, or learn to feel secure with the size of your genitals, but don't get guns. This massacre is game over for asinine bumpkins getting citizens of actual value killed with their irresponsible hobbies.
142
When some people who live near the elementary school heard the shots fired by Mr. Lanza on Friday, they said they were not surprised.
“I really didn’t think anything of it,” said a resident, Ray Rinaldi. “You hear gun shots around here all the time.”
Social. Generous. Slender. Liked to play bunco. Interested in gardening. And guns. She had five guns, loved to talk about them. Took her son Adam to the shooting range all the time.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/16/nyregi…
143
#136, ya know it when ya see it. At least six guns in the house, including an assault rifle. Likes to take the kids, including the mentally ill one, to the shooting range. Gun nut. Nothing illegal in being a gun nut, but nothing wrong with calling 'em like I see 'em either.
Before you start labeling me a "progressive" "gun grabber," at least do me the honor of reading my other postings on the subject. I fully understand that both the U.S. and Washington State constitutions, and those of a whole lot of other states, recognize an individual RKBA.
All rights are subject to reasonable regulation and limits, including RKBA. But I disassociate myself with the obnoxiousness of the fake-o Seattle "progressives" who are spouting a lot of nonsense. There ought to be a way for gun owners and those who recognize RKBA to also acknowledge problems and gaps in the law.
If you can't do that, then I'll file you in the same "nutcase" bag that holds some of the "progressive" crazies and fakers, starting with the feckless and cynical mayor of Seattle.
Before you start labeling me a "progressive" "gun grabber," at least do me the honor of reading my other postings on the subject. I fully understand that both the U.S. and Washington State constitutions, and those of a whole lot of other states, recognize an individual RKBA.
All rights are subject to reasonable regulation and limits, including RKBA. But I disassociate myself with the obnoxiousness of the fake-o Seattle "progressives" who are spouting a lot of nonsense. There ought to be a way for gun owners and those who recognize RKBA to also acknowledge problems and gaps in the law.
If you can't do that, then I'll file you in the same "nutcase" bag that holds some of the "progressive" crazies and fakers, starting with the feckless and cynical mayor of Seattle.
144
I'm still not seeing many people on this thread actually blaming the guy who pulled the trigger...
145
@143, I'd love to support "reasonable regulation and limits, including RKBA" if that was actually on the agenda. But it's not. Reasonable regulations are on the chopping block in every state. It's easy for you to support something that you know is never going to happen.
146
Actual evidence that making the right changes to gun laws DOES reduce gun violence, from an Australian study of what happened after their 1996 reforms:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles…
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles…
147
Disorganizedreligon, this is why I didn't attach my name. You have no respect for anyone. How about an intelligent reply? It is precisely because of people exactly like you that the Bill of Rights was created to begin with, and you serve as a prime example of why only someone insane would surrender their rights. Look at your reply to an intelligent plea for thoughtfulness.
Is it inconceivable to you that perhaps more is involved than just access to guns? Something which has always been a part of America. All you can seem to want to do is strip your fellow neighbors of their rights. Yet again, this hasn't happened anywhere else in the world has it?
You are nothing more than another Bushistia fascist loving stooge. Uttering orge comments.
You are the one making assumptions, you are the one who's questioned nothing you have been told, and you assume you have the full and honest story coming from souces like CNN? Like Fox? After all why would they lie?
You know, how many people do think like myself would venture to say something on the Strangers Slogs? Yet you cannot appreciate even that much.
I can tell you that I seriously doubt you are getting the full story. Our nation has all kinds of military and black ops going on across the globe, yet somehow this couldn't possible be related somehow could it?
Please, try to be a bit more thoughtful and carry on a discussion. Name calling serves no one. I said that good men and women do not serve you any longer and I said why. Calling me an NRA Stooge was your idea. I'm not a
NRA member. I'm an old man that has done what I could to help where I could to maintain both civilization, and to help people at an individual level.
I'm an old man trying to get you to think before you leap.
What? Our armies are blowing people up across the globe but yet again events like these, which have happened elsewhere aren't possibly indications that more is going on?
Try questioning some things before you start attacking everyone that tells you something you stupidly believe is right and just and true.
I can tell you right now that if the government is telling you something and the news channels like CNN and Fox are in agreement, then you just about bank on it being disinformation. Haven't you learned anything by reading the Stranger?
.
More...
Is it inconceivable to you that perhaps more is involved than just access to guns? Something which has always been a part of America. All you can seem to want to do is strip your fellow neighbors of their rights. Yet again, this hasn't happened anywhere else in the world has it?
You are nothing more than another Bushistia fascist loving stooge. Uttering orge comments.
You are the one making assumptions, you are the one who's questioned nothing you have been told, and you assume you have the full and honest story coming from souces like CNN? Like Fox? After all why would they lie?
You know, how many people do think like myself would venture to say something on the Strangers Slogs? Yet you cannot appreciate even that much.
I can tell you that I seriously doubt you are getting the full story. Our nation has all kinds of military and black ops going on across the globe, yet somehow this couldn't possible be related somehow could it?
Please, try to be a bit more thoughtful and carry on a discussion. Name calling serves no one. I said that good men and women do not serve you any longer and I said why. Calling me an NRA Stooge was your idea. I'm not a
NRA member. I'm an old man that has done what I could to help where I could to maintain both civilization, and to help people at an individual level.
I'm an old man trying to get you to think before you leap.
What? Our armies are blowing people up across the globe but yet again events like these, which have happened elsewhere aren't possibly indications that more is going on?
Try questioning some things before you start attacking everyone that tells you something you stupidly believe is right and just and true.
I can tell you right now that if the government is telling you something and the news channels like CNN and Fox are in agreement, then you just about bank on it being disinformation. Haven't you learned anything by reading the Stranger?
.
148
OirishOiyesAreSmilin
Apparently you would rather risk the lives of childern to the wims of unquestioned rulers with no means to contest their edicts.
Try learning some history, and then try assuming some responsibility as an adult. What; you think that when you have removed any means to contest the brilliance of the rulers by stealing your neighbors guns this will solve something? It will be the beginning of your problems.
You people are the Zombies....seriously, you think that there couldn't possibly be anything else going on? Who might gain by this mass murder? Have you considered that? Oh, there are no conspiracies are there? This is all just because of Gun Nuts isn't it? Brilliant!
Apparently you would rather risk the lives of childern to the wims of unquestioned rulers with no means to contest their edicts.
Try learning some history, and then try assuming some responsibility as an adult. What; you think that when you have removed any means to contest the brilliance of the rulers by stealing your neighbors guns this will solve something? It will be the beginning of your problems.
You people are the Zombies....seriously, you think that there couldn't possibly be anything else going on? Who might gain by this mass murder? Have you considered that? Oh, there are no conspiracies are there? This is all just because of Gun Nuts isn't it? Brilliant!
149
Citizen X, do you also believe that the 1996 gun law reforms in Australia (see the link @146) were part of a conspiracy, and if so, what was the outcome of that conspiracy?
150
Citizen X, do you believe the 1996 gun law reforms in Australia (see link @146) were part of a conspiracy to disarm the populace? If so, what was the outcome of the conspiracy, other than less gun violence?
151
?Well I wrote you a rather extended reply but it didn't post. Probably for the best I suppose.
Australia is an outpost of the elites. It's their new base in toto. Pine Gap is a multinational military base off limits to all mortals. I would advise reading some of Gordon Duffs articles for further info at Veterans Today. It may well be the home to a new global security threat.
Like I said, you are receiving propaganda. Question authority means questioning what you are being told. It doesn't mean mouthing off the some dumb ass flat foot.
To answer you. Crime increased immediately with the siezure of firearms. Semi automatic weapons are prohibited. Note that only 3% of all guns were supposedly turned in by some accounts.
Human nature is unchanging. You can safely disarm once you are assured humanity has changed. It hasn't yet.
See the real problem is America and it's guns. That the problem the elites face. Do you think there is anything that they would not do to solve that problem?
We never had these things before so why are we having them now? An AR-15 isn't any thing more impressive than a M-14 or an M1 Garand which are vastly more powerful and which we defeated the Koreans and the Germans and Japanese with. These too were semi auto rifles, assualt rifles.
Yet again, did returning Veterans have their kids going off to slaugher grade schoolers?
I just think that there is more going on. It hasn''t a damn thing to do with guns except that there are too many Americans with too many guns for someone or something to control them. That's what I think...it's something you all should be thinking about and asking your own selves about.
Toss in all the other unreported news and you got a reason to ask what the hell is going on. It isn't an answer to disarm when you got good reason to be suspicious about highly charged events like this, and it isn't going to solve anything, but it could well be a huge mistake.
More...
Australia is an outpost of the elites. It's their new base in toto. Pine Gap is a multinational military base off limits to all mortals. I would advise reading some of Gordon Duffs articles for further info at Veterans Today. It may well be the home to a new global security threat.
Like I said, you are receiving propaganda. Question authority means questioning what you are being told. It doesn't mean mouthing off the some dumb ass flat foot.
To answer you. Crime increased immediately with the siezure of firearms. Semi automatic weapons are prohibited. Note that only 3% of all guns were supposedly turned in by some accounts.
Human nature is unchanging. You can safely disarm once you are assured humanity has changed. It hasn't yet.
See the real problem is America and it's guns. That the problem the elites face. Do you think there is anything that they would not do to solve that problem?
We never had these things before so why are we having them now? An AR-15 isn't any thing more impressive than a M-14 or an M1 Garand which are vastly more powerful and which we defeated the Koreans and the Germans and Japanese with. These too were semi auto rifles, assualt rifles.
Yet again, did returning Veterans have their kids going off to slaugher grade schoolers?
I just think that there is more going on. It hasn''t a damn thing to do with guns except that there are too many Americans with too many guns for someone or something to control them. That's what I think...it's something you all should be thinking about and asking your own selves about.
Toss in all the other unreported news and you got a reason to ask what the hell is going on. It isn't an answer to disarm when you got good reason to be suspicious about highly charged events like this, and it isn't going to solve anything, but it could well be a huge mistake.
152
Sadly, it is smart politics for Dems to avoid this issue. They can't affect policy, and if they try they lose the chance to make the changes they can get through. The American people apparently NEED the orgy of violence we're going through to learn.
154
Let's Do Something about the STIGMA of TREATMENT of Our Children Suffering From MENTAL ILLNESS.....I have family members and extended family who have Needed Treatment and Gotten It.......We can't just "Home School" our Kids and HOPE they "G
row Out of It".......PLEASE GET TREATMENT for Your Child or Family Member who's Suffering From Depression or Mental Illness......Don't Put It Off.......!
NOBODY Knows what make a Person SNAP until it's Too Late!
row Out of It".......PLEASE GET TREATMENT for Your Child or Family Member who's Suffering From Depression or Mental Illness......Don't Put It Off.......!
NOBODY Knows what make a Person SNAP until it's Too Late!
155
Guns are not the problem. They need to be guided by a person to do damage.
Neglectful parents who (to their benefit) didn't learn how to model constructive and pro-social behavior for their children are a dangerous, growing phenomenon in our society.
Who's regulating/monitoring parenting skills? Because we become parents doesn't give us a "free ticket" from having mental health and interpersonal communication issues which need attention.
Metaphoric to a person who seeks to acquire a gun - a parent who is not "qualified" (has no "background check" or monitoring done for parenting/communication skills) is potentially very dangerous. Further, parents "wrap their hands around" a child, guide/"aim" their direction, and, ultimately, pull the trigger.
What we really need to give our attention to is not the gun, but who's behind the trigger?
Neglectful parents who (to their benefit) didn't learn how to model constructive and pro-social behavior for their children are a dangerous, growing phenomenon in our society.
Who's regulating/monitoring parenting skills? Because we become parents doesn't give us a "free ticket" from having mental health and interpersonal communication issues which need attention.
Metaphoric to a person who seeks to acquire a gun - a parent who is not "qualified" (has no "background check" or monitoring done for parenting/communication skills) is potentially very dangerous. Further, parents "wrap their hands around" a child, guide/"aim" their direction, and, ultimately, pull the trigger.
What we really need to give our attention to is not the gun, but who's behind the trigger?
156
@45- Two Asian guys, the Simon's Rock shooter was also an Asian American man.
Nobody wants to talk about how all this talking about it is part of the problem, eh? Too meta?
Too much change in our own beloved behavior?
Nobody wants to talk about how all this talking about it is part of the problem, eh? Too meta?
Too much change in our own beloved behavior?
157
your kids are at risk ?what bullshit! Ya from medicated little brain dead Obama craps who like shooting people in GUN FREE ZONES. Hows ya gun band doing in Detroit? You are to stupid to figure it out.America=Freedom! guns make sure it stays that way.
Obama will be,Nullified!The halfbreed weasel
Obama will be,Nullified!The halfbreed weasel
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