Savage Love Podcast Comments

 

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1
Dan's long, prattling answer to the lady with the checkered past did not hit on two essential truths:

1. There is nothing wrong with being promiscuous. Therefore, any feelings of shame or regret she has are irrational.

2. Since those feelings are irrational, there must be an explanation for them, which is: her boyfriend. She didn't feel bad about her past before he came along and guilted her about it. It's all him. He is an insecure asshole. She should dump him.*

* I don't say that lightly. I was with an insecure man for five years - somebody who shamed me for my past and tried to control my future. The thing about these guys is that they seem so sweet and well-meaning that you almost don't realize that the shame you've started to feel about yourself comes from THEM.
Posted by dchari on December 25, 2012 at 1:20 PM · Report this
shurenka 2
@1 is right. Never date someone who makes you feel insecure or shames you about your past. Period.
Posted by shurenka on December 25, 2012 at 6:39 PM · Report this
3
To the guy with a hair-trigger weiner: yes, as Dan said, you should be honest with your partner. Additionally though, there is a very simple trick you can do which might help with your endurance: Go beforehand! During the date, try to assess when things are about to get hot'n'heavy beforehand. Then, five minutes before that happens, excuse yourself to the restroom, conjure up your most titillating mental-image, and just blow that load. If you really are that fast then you can have the whole thing done with in the time-frame of a simple pee-break. Hooray! Now go back and enjoy a full refractory-period's worth of hanky-panky. Sure, it's not ideal, but it might very well make for a longer and more satisfying fooling-about session for both of you. Also, the next time you're ready to blow will be much more gradual and you'll be able to naturally last longer than usual - everybody wins!
Also also, if you're interested, there are endurance-extending training-techniques; do some research, you'll find plenty.
Good luck and joyful holidays :)
Posted by Lars Fillmore on December 25, 2012 at 7:14 PM · Report this
4
To the guy with a hair-trigger weiner: yes, as Dan said, you should be honest with your partner. Additionally though, there is a very simple trick you can do which might help with your endurance: Go beforehand! During the date, try to assess when things are about to get hot'n'heavy beforehand. Then, five minutes before that happens, excuse yourself to the restroom, conjure up your most titillating mental-image, and just blow that load. If you really are that fast then you can have the whole thing done with in the time-frame of a simple pee-break. Hooray! Now go back and enjoy a full refractory-period's worth of hanky-panky. Sure, it's not ideal, but it might very well make for a longer and more satisfying fooling-about session for both of you. Also, the next time you're ready to blow will be much more gradual and you'll be able to naturally last longer than usual - everybody wins!
Also also, if you're interested, there are endurance-extending training-techniques; do some research, you'll find plenty.
Good luck and joyful holidays :)
Posted by Lars Fillmore on December 25, 2012 at 7:16 PM · Report this
5
you forgot to mention about air travellers.

Don't be an idiot and stand up right away when the plane stops the gate.

We're all going out the same door. We're all going to the same baggage claim. We're all (maybe) going to the same passport control.

Calm the fuck down and stay seated until there's room for you to get out and leave the plane.
Posted by Doot on December 26, 2012 at 4:37 AM · Report this
6
@1 That is exactly what Dan said.
Posted by VioletFem on December 26, 2012 at 8:12 AM · Report this
7
Yeah, the twin shouldn't have been snooping on his brother's phone, but Dan should've mentioned that if the girl is underaged (which sounds likely) his brother could potentially get in trouble for possession of child porn.
Posted by Me0239094 on December 26, 2012 at 10:07 AM · Report this
8
Was it just me or was this podcast undownloadable for those of us with Apple products? Didn't work on stitcher on iphone or old mac laptop.

Old pc worked.
Posted by firstimewriter on December 26, 2012 at 10:33 AM · Report this
singing cynic 9
It's not just you! My iphone isn't even listing it on the list of podcasts - the most recent one is December 18th's.
Posted by singing cynic on December 26, 2012 at 10:41 AM · Report this
10
If one really believes that (ALL) men are pigs, one ought to advocate actively for a matriarchy.
Posted by vennominon on December 26, 2012 at 11:35 AM · Report this
11
Re: Ursula and the "spank me" kid...Dan made excellent points about how it may be something awful, or it may be nothing entirely. But he left out one thing, possibly because it wasn't an issue when he was a kid: be very cautious about being alone with a child who isn't yours. People have had their jobs and reputations trashed by false accusations by kids, or even just the kid telling an adult something that gets misconstrued.
Posted by JetBlue on December 26, 2012 at 1:26 PM · Report this
12
@6: That's only kind of what Dan said. Listening to Dan in the past, I know that he doesn't believe there's anything wrong with being responsibly promiscuous, but he sure didn't make it clear to her that she has nothing to feel guilty about in this particular answer. He kept saying that she "made mistakes", which sounds a lot more promiscuity-negative than he really is. Really, she just made choices in the past that she wouldn't make again. I wouldn't say it was a mistake to try something that I ended up not liking- it's good to try things, and it's good to find out that you don't like something.

She didn't really explain whether she felt guilty before the boyfriend guilted her about it either, but I suspect that ALL the guilty feelings come from the boyfriend.

For the guy with the spreadsheet: a lot of people are spreadsheet-negative :P. I'm not, personally; it sounds like what you're doing with the spreadsheet is what most people do instinctually, but I think it is problematic because there's not really a good way to make the scores that you're giving these women. As in you have no way of dealing with the error in your scores, since you're basing them entirely on your own assessment of her traits.

I think there's a way easier way for you to deal with this. If you go on a date and you really want to see the girl again, pursue another date. If you don't want to see her again, don't do another date. If you're not sure, ask her out again. Keep dating a girl until you're sure you don't want to be with her (or she decides she doesn't want you, but that's not up to you). Every time you think about making a more serious commitment with a girl, look at your list of traits. Instead of thinking about her "score" (which again, is an arbitrary number YOU picked, not an objective value), think about whether she's good enough in it. If she's not responsible enough for you, does it matter what her other traits are? If she's not as responsible as you would like, but not so irresponsible to be a dealbreaker, are her other traits good enough to make up for her less-than-perfect responsibility?

Recognize that the number system is completely arbitrary and very fallible. I'm pretty sure you'll know when she's not really good enough.
More...
Posted by alguna_rubia on December 26, 2012 at 9:42 PM · Report this
13
This question is a follow-up to Dan's answer to the guy who was on the receiving end of "hit it and quit it" too many times that hopefully some others can weigh in on. How does one insist on "taking things slow" or "getting to know each other first" without sounding like a cliche?
Posted by PricklyApple on December 27, 2012 at 8:28 PM · Report this
14
I'm the guy with the spreadsheet.
Thanks alguna_rubia for your comments, that's the way I do it anyway. In the end, the spreadsheet usually confirms what I already feel in my gut.
But one way of how the spreadsheet came in handy the other day was when I dated a girl who sort of ticked all the boxes but still I wasn't into her. I realized that I had to ADD more criteria to the list, as regrettable as that was. On the other hand, this experience taught me that a few criteria weren't as important to me as I thought they were. So the spreadsheet is trailing the heart anyway.

I think that Dan took to the extreme on thing that I was careful to point out wasn't there: I don't want a PERFECT partner and I know I'll have to compromise. For example, I'm much more lenient wrt body shape than my peers - I'm perfectly ok if a woman is a bit on the chubby side. Also, I don't really care if she's a party girl or a bookworm.

The question for me is: What is the right balance between having high expectations and, as Dan put it, ensuring that I don't stay alone for the rest of my life? I'm currently at an age where I don't want to compromise. This might change. But these days, I feel like I'm fending off the wrong ones so that one day I can tell to the right one "I fended them off for YOU because I knew you would come along one day." And if that takes 10 more years, so be it. Call me a romantic (with a spreadsheet).
Posted by spreadsheetguy on December 28, 2012 at 3:52 AM · Report this
Bonefish 15
Was anyone else annoyed at the sobbing caller? It's one thing when people break down while talking about something tragic in their lives (like the callers in past episodes whose fiances died); it's another thing to listen to someone's uncontrollable, full-on sobbing from beginning to end as they give an "inspirational" speech to a complete stranger.

It just seems like a contrived attempt to prove how sensitive they are. Who, upon hearing that an anonymous stranger hates himself, gets so affected that they just can't stop crying even as they rush to the phone to call Dan's podcast and rattle off an entire speech? Was this their first introduction to the existence of sadness in the world?
Posted by Bonefish http://5bmisc.blogspot.com/ on December 28, 2012 at 12:15 PM · Report this
16
@14: When it's trailing the heart anyway, I think it's not actually useful, but if it helps you make sense of your romantic choices, then go ahead and keep doing it. Though DEFINITELY don't roll out that it exists until you've actually got a romantic partner who would think it's cute.

Honestly, I don't really believe there's a time in a person's life where it's a good idea to compromise on your standards when you don't want to. If you ever find yourself in a situation where you think "Well, she's really not enough [insert quality here], but I really want to keep seeing her," that would be the time to compromise. You don't need to compromise on things you KNOW won't work out, but definitely compromise on things you didn't know you'd like.
Posted by alguna_rubia on December 28, 2012 at 1:17 PM · Report this
17
This comment is aimed at the woman who called in response to the pedophile in 321 and to the pedophile himself:

At first I wasn't sure about what you were saying but the more I think about it the more I think you couldn't be more right. We need more people like him out there. I can't figure out exactly how to say this... a couple of years ago I found out my best friend was a pedophile after the FBI tracked him down from the porn he was downloading and he was arrested. I kept talking to him, though. I tried to support him through different therapy groups and medications. I stopped talking to him when he told me that he didn't want the therapy anymore and was adamant that it was just brain-washing and there was nothing wrong with his feelings. I should also mention that his fantasies centered around torturing young boys. And he saw nothing wrong with that. So to the man who called a couple of weeks ago, please, please try to get better. Please find some medication that will help. We do need more people like you. If my friend had been more like you, maybe I wouldn't still be so devastated.
Posted by rather_be_anon on December 28, 2012 at 7:07 PM · Report this
18
Dan went too easy on the spreadsheet guy. That is downright creepy. That guy should take the entire spreadsheet and shove it up column A.
Posted by Micucci Nerd on December 28, 2012 at 7:31 PM · Report this
19
Dan, although your comments at the top of the show have nothing to do with sex and relationships, you made my Christmas with your impassioned defense of airline workers. Having just come home after dealing with a grade A asshole on an airplane, your words meant a lot. Thank you!
Posted by SEA flyer on December 29, 2012 at 6:54 PM · Report this
20
I think the guy with the spreadsheet (yes, you) is really an asshole. Perhaps a crazy asshole. Sorry, but there it is. Dan was very nice and gentle and understanding about it, but really what he was saying is that your spreadsheet, with your categories and scoring boxes and sophisticated rating schemes, it's really something inappropriate and points to some very bizarre priorities.

If I was a girl who went out with you and you dumped me because i scored too high in the "judgmental" category (FYI, not judgmental, just really intelligent and able to identify assholery when I see it), and I found out about this spreadsheet? I would tell every single one of my friends, and ask them to tell their friends, then Facebook and Twitter, then possibly plaster the local neighborhoods with flyers, just so that the female population knew what they were in for if they agreed to a date with you.

Women are always under the microscope, the implication always being "you're too short, too fat, too thin, too dark, too pale, too smart, too serious" too blah blah blah, and *you* have a fucking spreadsheet with more shit that you've assigned? It's like a physical representation of what many women feel like every day.

To me, it seems like a very effective way to offset any responsibility for your failure to put any effort into a long term relationship. "It's not you, it's me. Or actually, it is you, see here is my spreadsheet that proves it." Seriously? This is how you look for love? You're not looking for love, my friend. You're looking for a robot, with lots of dials and knobs so you can experiment and find the settings that you like best.

My advice? Being an actual heterosexual woman who used to date a lot of guys until I found "Mr. Right", I feel like I have more first hand experience than Dan in this one area. It's this: throw that fucking spread sheet away and talk to some mental health professionals. Because...damn. You crazy, boy. Take responsibility for your feelings and stop trying to date by numbers. Or perhaps stop trying to date at all. Your system basically guarantees that you will never be happy with one woman. So stop trying to find one woman. Own up to your inability to commit and learn to function within that framework.
More...
Posted by Fan of Fresh Air on December 29, 2012 at 8:49 PM · Report this
21
dear spreadsheet guy,

i had to stop listening so i could comment. never really thought i'd have anything to comment on. :) funny this would be thd topic! lol

my husband had a spread sheet. i passed the 10 preliminary filters and then went on to pass all 10 advanced filters. i can guarantee i am not even close to being perfect! however we really are perfect for each other.

in april we will celebrate 16 years together. do what feels right for you. but perhaps you should keep it to yourself. clearly people will take it the wrong way.
Posted by AcuteAngle on December 30, 2012 at 4:55 PM · Report this
22
dear spreadsheet guy,

i had to stop listening so i could comment. never really thought i'd have anything to comment on. funny that this would be the topic!

my husband had a spread sheet. i passed the 10 preliminary filters and then went on to pass all 10 advanced filters. i can guarantee i am not even close to being perfect! however we really are perfect for each other.

in april we will celebrate 16 years together. do what feels right for you. but perhaps you should keep it to yourself. clearly people will take it the wrong way.
Posted by AcuteAngle on December 30, 2012 at 5:10 PM · Report this
23
sorry for the double post. the dangers of iphone posting are many!
Posted by AcuteAngle on December 30, 2012 at 5:21 PM · Report this
24
I try really hard to be a gentleman, and I can't get women interested in me no matter what I do.

Comments like 21 make me feel like what women really want is for guys to be jerks.
Posted by Micucci Nerd on December 31, 2012 at 6:04 PM · Report this
shurenka 25
I heard of a girl (a friend of a friend) who kept a spreadsheet of men's penis sizes. (Based on nonmathematical measurements like hand/finger lengths, I suppose.)

Yes, we are recoiling instinctively from spreadsheet guy because it seems OCD (and another way of pathologically objectifying women). But if it helps him sort out his relationships, so what. The only concern would be that he is overanalyzing something rather than letting things develop organically, even if the spreadsheet "follows the heart".
Posted by shurenka on January 1, 2013 at 10:51 PM · Report this
26
@Micucci Nerd.
Lots of people have a description of the kind of person they would like to be with. And it's not a bad thing to have.

After spending a few years with someone who was controlling, cheap, manipulative and completely wrong for me, I could appreciate that my DH probably avoided spending years with people who may have treated him badly because of his list.

Perhaps I could have avoided that relationship had I been more logical and less swept away. I mean all the signs of incompatibility were there. I just didn't heed the warnings.

My husband is the least jerky guy a know. He's a bit nerdy and methodical, but extremely respectful, intelligent, kind and generous (oh, and ggg, ;)).

Most importantly, he was right, we are perfect for each other. Although having said all that, I can certainly understand if other people don't get it. He didn't go around telling people about his list for a reason. ;)

@Shurenka.
I'm not sure it necessarily has to be about objectifying women. At least, none of the points on my husband's list where about looks, clothes, boob size, body type, nor weight, etc. It didn't sound like the caller had those things on the list either. Although maybe he did and I've forgotten already.

My husband can appreciate attractive women. However, physical attraction is not all he is interested in. There are 100 million personal ads out there that are more objectifying than having a list of qualities you find important in a life partner.

You are right though, my husband certainly questioned whether he was over analyzing and so is SpreadSheetGuy. And that's a good thing.

I guess we have to find a balance between getting swept away with the emotions and leading us into a bad situation and being too clinical about the whole thing. Luckily, in our case, we seem to balance each other out.

I do hope SpreadSheetGuy finds a compatible partners with or without the spreadsheet!
More...
Posted by AcuteAngle on January 2, 2013 at 4:29 PM · Report this
aureolaborealis 27
@21: Didn't get "asshole" or "crazy" from the the spreadsheet guy. A bit quirky, yes. Too cerebral, yes. Perhaps self-defeating, yes.

You, on the other hand ...
Posted by aureolaborealis on January 3, 2013 at 11:44 AM · Report this
aureolaborealis 28
Yikes! @20. @20. @20.
Posted by aureolaborealis on January 3, 2013 at 11:45 AM · Report this
29
It is creepy to give people numerical grades on their personality attributes.

It is very creepy to track those attributes for all the people you know.

It is disgusting to make those people compete against each other for your "affections" based on your grades.

I guess maybe I am just stuck being alone, but I make no apologies for saying the above. I would rather be alone than be with someone who tracks me on a spreadsheet.
Posted by Trying to Find a Healthier Obsession Than Kate Micucci on January 3, 2013 at 7:42 PM · Report this
30
I just wanted to add a comment re: Ursula and the girl.

When I was 5 I started having my first bondage fantasies. I used to get excited by the idea of being tied down to a table and experimented on by a mad scientist, who would play around "down there" against my will. I managed to coerce one of neighbor friends to help me act them out, and it was really exciting for me. I got all tingly inside, and wanted more. I didn't mean any harm by it, and it wasn't a sign of anything wrong, just the very first signs of my sexuality. I would have been mortified if my parents had tried to talk to me about it, mostly because I don't think they would have handled it will.

I grew up in a loving conservative Christian home, with no abuse, and very little TV and few movies. These fantasies came straight out of my imagination, and it seems pretty clear to me that I was born with my kink.
Posted by Rena on January 3, 2013 at 8:02 PM · Report this
31
Hey Spreadsheet Guy,

Your conundrum kind of made me chuckle as I am doing a PhD and I have met many blokes who would probably use a spreadsheet for dating. Actually, I have a female friend who puts all her sex partners on a spread sheet and rates them. However, I do sympathise with your issue and I do not actually think that the spreadsheet in itself which is the problem.
I think that you should perhaps look at the reasons why you make a spreadsheet of all your partners. Objectively, spreadsheets are meaningless when taken out of context. Nevertheless, I believe that you are using spreadsheets as a distancing device. You set these rigid standards for your partners perhaps because you are worried that you will not measure up to their expectations and they would reject you. Hence, through using the spreadsheet you find a convenient excuse to reject them before they are close enough to hurt your feelings. The spreadsheet is not the problem- your inherent fear of rejection is.
Posted by concerned commenter on January 4, 2013 at 7:24 AM · Report this
32
"Tying-up play" with or among children is a bad idea because it's dangerous. Period. Not because it's freaky, or creepy, or kinky, or anything like that. It shouldn't get anywhere near any kind of discussion of sexuality. Accidental strangulation in play is a serious, serious risk and should be taken just as seriously as kids playing with matches or knives.
Posted by marmer on January 4, 2013 at 11:36 AM · Report this
33
To the spreadsheet, and all other anti-spreadsheet folks...

The whole spreadsheet phenomena has more to do with a person not really being ready for a relationship. We all rate and judge the people we date. We decide not to date someone for all kinds of crazy reasons. Sometimes we are cognizant of those reasons and we write them down, sometimes the reasons are just floating around our heads and we aren’t even aware they exist.

We are bombarded constantly by the message that we are supposed to be coupled, also working towards settling down and having children. Especially if we are in our late-20's and 30's. A written list, or spreadsheet as the case may be, giving you a rational reason for not starting a serious relationship with every woman you date is perfectly fine. Some day, when you are ready, (and you may not even be aware that you are ready) a person will come along and you won't even need to look at the spreadsheet. Or you will, and she’ll meet those standards, or she won’t and you won’t care.
Posted by myrtletheturtle on January 5, 2013 at 11:13 AM · Report this
34
To #15: Obviously you are not a mother We can get overly irrationally emotional when it comes to thinking about something terrible happening to our children. Or if you are a mother, um, yikes.
Posted by lovemartinis on January 5, 2013 at 1:43 PM · Report this
35
I'm coming down as anti-spreadsheet because, no matter how you try to rationalize it, you're approaching a relationship with a woman as though she's a consumer product that you rate and try out before deciding to buy. And I think you know that, which is why you incriminated yourself even further when you contrasted yourself with your friends because you are "tolerant" of the bigger girls. So "big" of you.

Sorry, you're a self-justifying douchebag who doesn't get it.

If I find myself mentally cataloging a person's strength to weaknesses ratio, I know I don't love them. When I find myself endeared to the very things about a person that annoy the piss out of me, I know that I do. You don't choose who you love. Period.

Posted by maddy811 on January 7, 2013 at 11:56 AM · Report this
36
I agree 100% with #31's comments on spreadsheet-guy.

I thought it was deeply telling that he keeps repeating how he's ALWAYS in control of doing the dumping and has never been the 'dumpee'. I think this individual is simply scared of rejection himself and so he seeks out women who he feels superior to that can criticize and LITERALLY degrade in his geeky little graphs.

You should intuitively know what you like and don't like about a person, and choose to continue dating them if you're interested. If not, let them go. Ask yourself if the tables were turned, how would you feel if your date tracked your worth in a spreadsheet.

I suspect you must be used to online dating - which I have tried and seems to foster this kind of 'checklist' mentality to cope with sifting through hundreds of potential mates. Try to keep a little perspective!
Posted by Chicklet5 on January 7, 2013 at 4:10 PM · Report this
HellboundAlleee 37
Wait--I thought that the one word that angers/annoys Dan the most was "privilege." At least it was when someone mentioned "male privilege." But at least he recognized hetero-privilege. There's that.
Posted by HellboundAlleee http://hellboundalleee.blogspot.com on January 8, 2013 at 1:12 PM · Report this
38
Spreadsheet Guy --

"I'm currently at an age where I don't want to compromise. This might change."

What you fail to grasp is that whichever girl chooses you, she WILL be compromising. On something. Maybe it's little stuff. But it is -- you are -- a compromise nonetheless. The idea that you might be willing to compromise eventually is dumb, because she has to compromise TODAY, if she were to take you at face value this instant. You ARE a compromise.

"But these days, I feel like I'm fending off the wrong ones so that one day I can tell to the right one "I fended them off for YOU because I knew you would come along one day."

You realize, do you not, that you have invented The Optimum Woman in your head, and are asking every single woman you date -- frail humans, all -- to measure up to a hypothetical. And even that is changeable. The way you keep playing one quality against another means that your fundamental working assumption is that you can always tweak something here or there to make things just a little bit better, which means you will NEVER be totally satisfied. If she ever comes along -- and I doubt it, because you admit to revising your formula all the time -- you will place this perfect person on a pedestal and worship at her feet (never a good way to run a relationship) just long enough for you to get to know her deeply and discover some of her more subtle flaws, at which point you will dump her too, and add yet another column to your spreadsheet.

Besides, what makes you think The Optimum Woman would settle for someone like you? Do you really think you are such an exquisite balance of all things good in manhood?

"And if that takes 10 more years, so be it. Call me a romantic (with a spreadsheet)."

Romantic? Narcissist, more like. Enjoy your calculations, and your continued bachelorhood.
More...
Posted by avast2006 on January 10, 2013 at 11:19 PM · Report this

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