Slog Comments
Indian Women Are Still Protesting Their Culture of Rape
1
There's only one way to put a stop to it. Start arresting perps and give them serious jail time. But those ancient cultures are the most resistant to changes, especially with regard to gender. It will take sustained pressure from women on elected officials.
2
Rapist should have their thumbs cut off. It would make them visible to society and hinder their lives in a meaningful way.
3
@1, that primitive heathen swarthy society has arrested the perps and they face life in prison.
The riots are happening because people want to see them executed.
The riots are happening because people want to see them executed.
4
@3 That whooshing sound you heard was the point goung WAY-Y-Y over your head. The point of Cienna's article, and also the point of post #1. So far over your head, so very far...
5
Ugh. Do the women in question say something to the effect of, "No, I would rather not have sex with any of you" or were they incapable of saying such?
If yes(which I believe is case in 99.999% of such cases) then the women have done what they need to do. After that the onus is on the person who is initiating action to stop initiating.
Anything else is over complicating what is really a very simple exchange with a very simple solution. Person says anything other than "yes"? Then that means no and the person initiating should back off. Fin.
If yes(which I believe is case in 99.999% of such cases) then the women have done what they need to do. After that the onus is on the person who is initiating action to stop initiating.
Anything else is over complicating what is really a very simple exchange with a very simple solution. Person says anything other than "yes"? Then that means no and the person initiating should back off. Fin.
6
@1 &2, yes to jail time and amputated thumbs. Also, amputated dicks. A deterrent AND revenge. I like it.
7
@5 - It isn't required that women say 'no'. The requirement for sex is a 'yes'. It should not be assumed that it's okay to have sex with a woman so long as she doesn't say 'no'.
We need to change the language we use: we talk about how women can 'avoid' being raped, as if rape were a natural phenomenon like hurricanes or lightning rather than something that men do to women. It's not up to women to 'avoid' rape - it's up to men to stop raping.
We need to change the language we use: we talk about how women can 'avoid' being raped, as if rape were a natural phenomenon like hurricanes or lightning rather than something that men do to women. It's not up to women to 'avoid' rape - it's up to men to stop raping.
8
So I don't understand this recent backlash against teaching women how to operate more safely in a big, mean world (I mean the common sense 'don't walk alone late at night thru X neighborhood' stuff, not the 'don't wear Y to class because it'll give guys the wrong idea' stuff). This can be an ugly, dangerous world, and we all need to take common sense precautions to keep ourselves safe, male or female.
on the other hand, it is also very much an education piece for the men in our world. I was raised, in kind of an old fashioned way, to be respectful of women. Also, right around jr. high, my dad sat me down and explained how I not only had a responsibility to never mistreat a girl, but that I was also responsible for the well-being and good behavior of those around me. That seems a little patronizing in some respects, but I think it's better than feeling entitled to mistreat/violate/assault.
on the other hand, it is also very much an education piece for the men in our world. I was raised, in kind of an old fashioned way, to be respectful of women. Also, right around jr. high, my dad sat me down and explained how I not only had a responsibility to never mistreat a girl, but that I was also responsible for the well-being and good behavior of those around me. That seems a little patronizing in some respects, but I think it's better than feeling entitled to mistreat/violate/assault.
9
This Catholic priest http://www.gazzettadelsud.it/news/englis… asks women to ask themselves if they are not the ones calling all that violence against them. Go figure. Pricks speak Italian too.
10
@8 - It seems that you didn't read the article:
"We believe that regardless of whether she is indoors or outside, whether it is day or night, for whatever reason, however, she may be dressed — women have a right to freedom. And that freedom without fear is what we need to protect, to guard and respect."
Rape is not an inevitable occurrence, and when you promote the idea that there is something women can do to prevent their own rapes, you encourage a patriarchal proscribement of "good" or "bad" behavior, and that the consequences of doing something wrong is violent sexual subjugation by another human being. Also it's really condescending (as in: thanks bro, I'm sure she hadn't heard that pro-tip on not getting herself raped before).
"We believe that regardless of whether she is indoors or outside, whether it is day or night, for whatever reason, however, she may be dressed — women have a right to freedom. And that freedom without fear is what we need to protect, to guard and respect."
Rape is not an inevitable occurrence, and when you promote the idea that there is something women can do to prevent their own rapes, you encourage a patriarchal proscribement of "good" or "bad" behavior, and that the consequences of doing something wrong is violent sexual subjugation by another human being. Also it's really condescending (as in: thanks bro, I'm sure she hadn't heard that pro-tip on not getting herself raped before).
11
tell men to STOP RAPING!! This is the only solution, the solution that no man wants to hear- stop raping women, stop raping children, stop raping other men, STOP THE FUCKING RAPE YOU RAPING FUCKING RAPE-ANIMALS!!!!
12
I agree that women should never get the message that they asked for it, but it also makes sense to take steps to avoid being raped if you can. Of course men should be the primary target of campaigns to stop rape, but raping bastards are raping bastards. They aren't doing it because no one told them not to. They're doing it because they are raping bastards, and they need to have very severe penalties dropped on them.
13
@10- I think you didn't get my point. I don't think rape, or other types of assault, are just a 'cost of doing business' in the modern world. But this world has risks for everyone, and removing all agency and self-efficacy is pretty demeaning.
A friend of a friend was in Jamaica, and decided to leave the tourist resort by himself and travel into Kingston to go to a reggae club. predictably, he was clubbed in the head, had everything of value taken, and the police spent a1/2 hour screaming at him for being stupid. Did he have a right to walk wherever he chose? to feel safe? to not be robbed/beaten? Yes. Do we live in that world? No.
This isn't either-or. It is both. We need to do much more to enforce a social norm that sexual assault is forbidden, de-stigmatize victims so that reporting and prosecution is easier, etc. But that will never negate the need for common sense, awareness, etc. There will always be bad people who will seek to victimize others.
A friend of a friend was in Jamaica, and decided to leave the tourist resort by himself and travel into Kingston to go to a reggae club. predictably, he was clubbed in the head, had everything of value taken, and the police spent a1/2 hour screaming at him for being stupid. Did he have a right to walk wherever he chose? to feel safe? to not be robbed/beaten? Yes. Do we live in that world? No.
This isn't either-or. It is both. We need to do much more to enforce a social norm that sexual assault is forbidden, de-stigmatize victims so that reporting and prosecution is easier, etc. But that will never negate the need for common sense, awareness, etc. There will always be bad people who will seek to victimize others.
14
@13 - First: Don't compare sexual assault to other forms of crime.
Second: The point Chris, is that women are beaten over the head with "common sense" advice all the time. Guess what? It's not working. It does however, seem to give people the illusion that you can control things you are not in control of, such as someone else's actions. No one is saying that you shouldn't be aware of your surroundings and who you're with, but the fact that these conversations about rape and rape culture are always framed in terms of what the victim/potential victims should have done or should be doing is harmful and doesn't address the real problem.
Second: The point Chris, is that women are beaten over the head with "common sense" advice all the time. Guess what? It's not working. It does however, seem to give people the illusion that you can control things you are not in control of, such as someone else's actions. No one is saying that you shouldn't be aware of your surroundings and who you're with, but the fact that these conversations about rape and rape culture are always framed in terms of what the victim/potential victims should have done or should be doing is harmful and doesn't address the real problem.
15
"I mean the common sense 'don't walk alone late at night thru X neighborhood' stuff"
Since most rapes occur in a woman's home (and about 1/3 while she's asleep in bed), or in the home of a friend, it is not common sense to think that walking alone at night in a bad neighborhood is more likely to get you raped. Also something to consider: the rapest is almost never a stranger.
It's the aquaintance who drives you home from the party (presumably to "keep you safe") who's more likely to rape you, not some stranger who jumps out of the bushes just as you happen to be walking by.
What @14 said. Common sense advice doesn't work.
Since most rapes occur in a woman's home (and about 1/3 while she's asleep in bed), or in the home of a friend, it is not common sense to think that walking alone at night in a bad neighborhood is more likely to get you raped. Also something to consider: the rapest is almost never a stranger.
It's the aquaintance who drives you home from the party (presumably to "keep you safe") who's more likely to rape you, not some stranger who jumps out of the bushes just as you happen to be walking by.
What @14 said. Common sense advice doesn't work.
16
@14- Why exactly am I forbidden from comparing sexual assault to other forms of violent crime? It is violence, it is abhorrent.
Your second point is bullshit: According to RAINN: "Sexual assault has fallen by more than 60% in recent years.... In other words, if not for the historic gains we've made in the last decade, an additional 2,546,420 Americans would have become victims of sexual violence." Their stats were pulled from a DOJ 2010 longitudinal report. Obviously, still way too many sexual assaults, but a 60% decline sounds like it might be worth noting (ie: if this is what 'women are beaten over the head with' it seems to be making a considerable difference).
Your second point is bullshit: According to RAINN: "Sexual assault has fallen by more than 60% in recent years.... In other words, if not for the historic gains we've made in the last decade, an additional 2,546,420 Americans would have become victims of sexual violence." Their stats were pulled from a DOJ 2010 longitudinal report. Obviously, still way too many sexual assaults, but a 60% decline sounds like it might be worth noting (ie: if this is what 'women are beaten over the head with' it seems to be making a considerable difference).
17
@15- you are 100% correct. Most (80%) sexual assaults are committed by an acquaintance of the victim. I have never seen and cannot locate that '1/3 while asleep' stat, but I'll take your word on it. There are different strategies to reduce those rates (some of them are procedural, some of them are 'common sense' on the part of institutions, some of them are the same as above). I recommend taking a look at the Darkness to Light program for building safeguards in institutions.
18
@12 That would make sense if you could actually take steps to avoid being raped. But since you cannot dress or act or do anything to make men see you as a person with agency or autonomy, it's a worthless exercise wasted on victims rather than perpetrators.
19
@ 16 - Because being raped is not like getting your wallet taken or your house broken into. People's bodies aren't things. Not all violence is done with the same motive. This is (obviously) not to say that all violence isn't bad.
So your theory is that in recent years women finally figured out how to not get themselves raped? They hadn't heard your helpful hints before, so now they're finally getting the message? Or that there has been something new in that message?
The point, once again: This message of "common sense safety tips" derails the conversation away from what the problem is (what rapists are doing and why) and blames victims while creating a culture of fear and regulation on how women get to live their lives.
So your theory is that in recent years women finally figured out how to not get themselves raped? They hadn't heard your helpful hints before, so now they're finally getting the message? Or that there has been something new in that message?
The point, once again: This message of "common sense safety tips" derails the conversation away from what the problem is (what rapists are doing and why) and blames victims while creating a culture of fear and regulation on how women get to live their lives.
20
At the risk of reposting something I originally got from SLOG ages ago. Here's some very good advice to prevent rape.
http://canyourelate.org/2011/05/24/rape-…
http://canyourelate.org/2011/05/24/rape-…
21
@#18, I wasn't suggesting how you dress or act were contributing factors. I was referring to personal safety - the whole walking alone in a bad neighborhood argument. Obviously that doesn't apply if a woman is attacked in her own home, or by an acquaintance she trusted, but it doesn't mean it's bad advice.
22
@19- No, the theory (not mine, but that of RAINN, which I would certainly think of as long time experts and leading advocates for victims services, changes in procedure, and prevention strategies) is that 30 years of education for both men and women, better safety measures, institutional safeguards, changes in reporting procedures, changes in laws, and their work on social norms has resulted in an increased rate of reporting and a decreased rate of sexual assault. It was your suggestion that the only thing anyone had done was tell women to "dress conservatively and don't get yourself raped" and that nothing anyone had done was working. We are a long way from where we need to be, but there are a lot of people working very hard to get us there and your comments were pretty degrading to their efforts and successes. To the earlier comment about acquaintance assault, I get to do something very interesting in my job. I train high school students to do peer education for middle school students on safe dating and relationship violence. We work hard to balance the presentations between respecting the rights of others (don't be abusive/rapey) and assert your own rights (watch out for warning signs, leave, etc). It has been effective and rates of HYS reported dating violence are lower in the schools where we work over tha last 8 years.
23
@21
I wasn't suggesting how you dress or act were contributing factors. I was referring to personal safety - the whole walking alone in a bad neighborhood argument. Obviously that doesn't apply if a woman is attacked in her own home, or by an acquaintance she trusted, but it doesn't mean it's bad advice.
No, it's great advice -- if you want to prevent a mugging, which is actually somewhat more likely to happen to men.
Rape is NOT like getting mugged for sex.
Rape is more like a hate crime.
I wasn't suggesting how you dress or act were contributing factors. I was referring to personal safety - the whole walking alone in a bad neighborhood argument. Obviously that doesn't apply if a woman is attacked in her own home, or by an acquaintance she trusted, but it doesn't mean it's bad advice.
No, it's great advice -- if you want to prevent a mugging, which is actually somewhat more likely to happen to men.
Rape is NOT like getting mugged for sex.
Rape is more like a hate crime.
24
Actually @22 I had responded to this:
"So I don't understand this recent backlash against teaching women how to operate more safely in a big, mean world (I mean the common sense 'don't walk alone late at night thru X neighborhood' stuff, not the 'don't wear Y to class because it'll give guys the wrong idea' stuff)."
I'm not sure what you read in my comments that says I had degraded the efforts of others for decades in terms of advances of social movements and judiciary advances, when what I had said was: Stop telling women how to prevent their own rapes. It's condescending and dangerous. Here, this is good:
http://www.salon.com/2011/12/14/how_to_p…
"So I don't understand this recent backlash against teaching women how to operate more safely in a big, mean world (I mean the common sense 'don't walk alone late at night thru X neighborhood' stuff, not the 'don't wear Y to class because it'll give guys the wrong idea' stuff)."
I'm not sure what you read in my comments that says I had degraded the efforts of others for decades in terms of advances of social movements and judiciary advances, when what I had said was: Stop telling women how to prevent their own rapes. It's condescending and dangerous. Here, this is good:
http://www.salon.com/2011/12/14/how_to_p…
25
@24 - This is where i read that into your comments- which does not seem like a stretch.
".. women are beaten over the head with "common sense" advice all the time. Guess what? It's not working."
I maintain that the efforts are working, and they consist of much more than 'common sense'. Similarly, while acquaintance sexual assault is prevalent here, there are many places in the world where that is not the case, at least not to the same degree. But why would you ever want to worry about preparing folks for that? Who would ever travel to a place like Egypt, right?
".. women are beaten over the head with "common sense" advice all the time. Guess what? It's not working."
I maintain that the efforts are working, and they consist of much more than 'common sense'. Similarly, while acquaintance sexual assault is prevalent here, there are many places in the world where that is not the case, at least not to the same degree. But why would you ever want to worry about preparing folks for that? Who would ever travel to a place like Egypt, right?
26
@25 - You're talking now about other efforts, which is fine, but doesn't relate to my original comment about your original comment. My comment was very specific: Stop with the "common sense" advice. If you choose to read more into it to defend yourself, that's fine, if wrong.
It's interesting you bring up the rest of the world and dangerous places, as the original post was from a woman in India, similarly frustrated with "common sense" advice from other well-meaning individuals, letting women know their place in the world.
It's interesting you bring up the rest of the world and dangerous places, as the original post was from a woman in India, similarly frustrated with "common sense" advice from other well-meaning individuals, letting women know their place in the world.
27
@26- This is just getting silly. It was clear that you were originally implying that there were no other efforts (which is the hypothesis I was playing off of in #16) and that they had not worked. I think it might help to tease out a few things that are being somewhat lumped together or misconstrued.
1-There is a huge gulf of difference between what might be called 'awareness' (buddy system, bad neighborhoods, take a cab, etc) and what might be called 'victim blaming' (how were you dressed? why were you there? why do you hang with that crowd). the former is valid, as general safety for everybody, the later is bullshit. they are not the same thing.
2-Much of the 'common sense' advice holds for acquaintance sexual assault -buddy system at a party, campus police rides home, don't drink/drug to excess without a reliable friend (who isn't going to try to fuck you), etc.
My point is: Don't stop with the 'common sense' advice. It is working. It isn't the whole picture, but it certainly counts. Do stop with language and attitude that blames victims, but also stop with the language that disrespects the amazing gains already made. As for dangerous places- I don't know India. I do know Egypt, and sexual harassment and assault is pretty much rampant, and has been for a very long time, usually on the streets, exceedingly aggressive, and rarely given any concern by bystanders. Nothing to do with 'place in the world', everything to do with 'not raped.'
1-There is a huge gulf of difference between what might be called 'awareness' (buddy system, bad neighborhoods, take a cab, etc) and what might be called 'victim blaming' (how were you dressed? why were you there? why do you hang with that crowd). the former is valid, as general safety for everybody, the later is bullshit. they are not the same thing.
2-Much of the 'common sense' advice holds for acquaintance sexual assault -buddy system at a party, campus police rides home, don't drink/drug to excess without a reliable friend (who isn't going to try to fuck you), etc.
My point is: Don't stop with the 'common sense' advice. It is working. It isn't the whole picture, but it certainly counts. Do stop with language and attitude that blames victims, but also stop with the language that disrespects the amazing gains already made. As for dangerous places- I don't know India. I do know Egypt, and sexual harassment and assault is pretty much rampant, and has been for a very long time, usually on the streets, exceedingly aggressive, and rarely given any concern by bystanders. Nothing to do with 'place in the world', everything to do with 'not raped.'
29
@28 - how so? I actually spend large portions of my days doing the non-glamorous work of sexual assault rate reduction. Because your fellow citizens don't much care for paying taxes, we really have to focus on things we can prove drive down rates, and don't get to do 'education and outreach' at the levels we'd like. To be fair, your fellow citizens also get upset when our pals at Planned Parenthood show up and teach safe sex. One guy I knew actually calculated the ratio of threatening phone calls per condom put onto a banana...don't recall exactly what it was off hand, maybe 3:1
In the abstract you are correct- there should be a universal Pax Romana. But we aren't there yet. Violent crime (the superset that includes sexual assaults) is down 50% nationwide from its peak in 1991, our murder rate is below half of what it was 20 years ago. a good start.
In the abstract you are correct- there should be a universal Pax Romana. But we aren't there yet. Violent crime (the superset that includes sexual assaults) is down 50% nationwide from its peak in 1991, our murder rate is below half of what it was 20 years ago. a good start.
30
@29 Go back and reread what you wrote at @22.
"30 years of education for both men and women, better safety measures, institutional safeguards, changes in reporting procedures, changes in laws, and their work on social norms has resulted in an increased rate of reporting and a decreased rate of sexual assault"
Education, institutional safeguards, laws, and social norms are all valid rape prevention strategies. None of them have anything to do with your "common sense" advice about whether or not women should feel as free as men do to travel through town without an escort.
"30 years of education for both men and women, better safety measures, institutional safeguards, changes in reporting procedures, changes in laws, and their work on social norms has resulted in an increased rate of reporting and a decreased rate of sexual assault"
Education, institutional safeguards, laws, and social norms are all valid rape prevention strategies. None of them have anything to do with your "common sense" advice about whether or not women should feel as free as men do to travel through town without an escort.
31
What I find telling is that every reputable sexual assault prevention/outreach group offers tips and keeping oneself safe on the streets, basic self defense tactics, and typically claim that these classes/courses are among the most requested by women.
Naturally, these educational programs are offered as merely a portion of the prevention strategies, but they are still there.
So why is it that these groups, often staffed by rape survivors and forward thinking women, seem to think that educational prevention and safety courses are useful and not sexist? Is it just because they are also women, or because it is coming from a certain group? Why do these groups see it as an important piece of the puzzle, and not "victim-blaming?"
And do commentors like McJulie and Soupytwist think that these organizations are also "shitheads" and are just trying to hold down women? I am honestly curious.
Naturally, these educational programs are offered as merely a portion of the prevention strategies, but they are still there.
So why is it that these groups, often staffed by rape survivors and forward thinking women, seem to think that educational prevention and safety courses are useful and not sexist? Is it just because they are also women, or because it is coming from a certain group? Why do these groups see it as an important piece of the puzzle, and not "victim-blaming?"
And do commentors like McJulie and Soupytwist think that these organizations are also "shitheads" and are just trying to hold down women? I am honestly curious.
32
Oh, and moments after hitting "submit," I realized that my word choice "hold women down" was quite poor given the topic, and I apologize.
"Hold women back" would be my preferred edit.
"Hold women back" would be my preferred edit.
33
@27 - You don't get to say what I was "implying". I further clarified, and you don't want to admit wrong, which is fine, but please don't put words in my mouth.
Your helpful hints on what women should be doing to prevent their own rapes is wrong.
Women are educated everyday on how to prevent their own rapes, maybe you could hold off on the internet comments on how they are doing it wrong, and shouldn't feel so condescended to when they're told it immediately following an incredibly brutal rape where those really helpful hints don't apply.
It's fine if you don't get it why that's upsetting.
Your helpful hints on what women should be doing to prevent their own rapes is wrong.
Women are educated everyday on how to prevent their own rapes, maybe you could hold off on the internet comments on how they are doing it wrong, and shouldn't feel so condescended to when they're told it immediately following an incredibly brutal rape where those really helpful hints don't apply.
It's fine if you don't get it why that's upsetting.
34
I have never, at any point, meant to suggest that women are responsible for preventing their own rapes. I have never suggested that anyone was wrong in demanding a change in culture, in India or elsewhere. Education, changes in norms, laws and culture are critical. and there is never any excuse for any blame being put on a victim for the actions of a rapist. I do not know what part of anything I said led you to feel like I was saying otherwise. My goal is to have fewer people (male (much more often than you might expect) and female) end up in an exam room giving details to a prosecutor. I hope that is OK with you.
35
I would direct you to your very first comment, as I have previously. Good luck with your work sir.
36
@31, @34 The problem with self defense is that it only works when you're aware you're being attacked. If you've been drugged, if you're asleep, or if you just respond a hair too late (since there's an 80% chance you know the person and we all would like to believe we don't know any rapists), you already have a person pinning you down who (statistically) is likely to be larger than you, and struggling could result in injury to you only. I appreciate that some women feel safer knowing certain self-defense maneuvers, but in practice, they are not realistic, preventive measures for rape (but may be effective against muggings and other waking attack scenarios). And yes, as a survivor, I do find that backwards and unhelpful, but I also realize that we've all been socialized to believe it's "empowering." It may feel empowering, and that's cool, but it's not going to stop someone from putting Rohypnol in your diet coke. I get that you *want* these things to be helpful, but it's really higher conviction rates, longer sentences, better police response, and basically everything else *besides* emphasizing women's need for "protection." The only way to avoid being raped is not to be in the presence of a rapist.
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