Slog Comments
Why Not Just Give Up the Pretense, and Convert Our Schools Directly into Prisons?
63
Yeah, no thanks to cops in schools. Our sister high school had one and they loved to strip search and fondle vigorously for drugs. The only students targeted were attractive females (none of whom sold or used drugs). No male student was ever targeted.
61
@53: Your eagerness to repeat that word, along with the fact that you think anyone (including the OP) is unaware of what it means, suggests that you are far too young to be posting here. Either that, or you are impossibly stupid, even for a man.
60
@37 All you are saying is that your arguments are intended only to bash charter school opponents, with no logical implications. Thought so.
59
Although the NRA and the gun-rights-advocates talk about limiting the power of the federal government, in reality they both defend the gun makers' right to make money selling as many guns as possible. It is a well known fact that guerrillas in Latin America buy their guns in the US, the same nation they despise. Not to mention drug cartels, of course. How many of those so called 'legal guns' are killing hundreds at people in the streets and jungles of the world every day, all in the name of "freedom of enterprise" of the gun makers and marketeers? Now their best offer is to arm the teachers and place armed guards in every school, which is the same as opening a whole brand new market to sell their guns. Brilliant! And they have a huge chorus of self pretended freedom fighters replicating their hateful message.
58
is it callous of me to say that if we are outrightly turning schools into prisons, I'm glad I'm not attending one these days? pretty certain if that were the case back when I was a kid, I would have been the guy shived in the locker room by skinheads.
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54
@17, others: OK, I've seen enough variations of this "gun's in the safe, it's no good to you" meme here and elsewhere enough these past couple of weeks that I'm going to respond just to get it off my chest - I'm sure it will be worthless info for most people here but it will make you sound like you know your stuff if you're arguing with gun nuts, which by appearances happens a lot here.
Relatively standard procedure for a lot of people I know is to actually have 2 safes, a small biometric & keypad one in or near the bedroom bolted to the wall or floor for a handgun, and a larger long gun safe (again, bolted) with biometric, combination or key elsewhere in the house.
If there are keys, you store one safe's key in the other safe. You keep ammo for the handgun in the handgun safe, for everything else you store the ammo locked separately from the other guns.
Biometric safes are not leading edge tech any more, and they work. They open in about 5 seconds. The point of having a gun in the house is to have a fallback if the cops can't get to the house in time after you call 911 and hunker down.
There seems to be an image here that gun nuts are itching for a fight and want to rush downstairs and be Rambo, and then shoot the FedEx guy or Grandma in their fog. Obviously you can scrounge up a couple news stories on the latter, but meanwhile there are a few million others actually doing the former, every day of the year.
Relatively standard procedure for a lot of people I know is to actually have 2 safes, a small biometric & keypad one in or near the bedroom bolted to the wall or floor for a handgun, and a larger long gun safe (again, bolted) with biometric, combination or key elsewhere in the house.
If there are keys, you store one safe's key in the other safe. You keep ammo for the handgun in the handgun safe, for everything else you store the ammo locked separately from the other guns.
Biometric safes are not leading edge tech any more, and they work. They open in about 5 seconds. The point of having a gun in the house is to have a fallback if the cops can't get to the house in time after you call 911 and hunker down.
There seems to be an image here that gun nuts are itching for a fight and want to rush downstairs and be Rambo, and then shoot the FedEx guy or Grandma in their fog. Obviously you can scrounge up a couple news stories on the latter, but meanwhile there are a few million others actually doing the former, every day of the year.
53
@23:
So fuck off you ignorant cunt.You complain about a poster not knowing what 'fascist' means and then you retort with one of the most sexist and bigoted slurs? Let me quickly explain what 'cunt' means and why it is inappropriate. It is a word that is used to ruthlessly attack a woman for not fitting into her 'assigned' gender norms. Women that are called 'cunts' are not acting passively and respecting the male authority. It is a word that is used to let them know they don't fit into society and that they need to conform and obey men. When it is used at men, it is meant to evoke the worst stereotype that the bigot has of women and then use that to try to emasculate the man. The same applies to the words 'bitch' and 'whore'. Don't fucking use them.
51
@49 yeah, like I said, Obama is not as left as you seem to think. I'm pretty sure if you put Obama and Goldy next to eachother you'd be surprised by how much you have in common with old Barack compared to Goldy.
Just joshing with you. 100 percent libertarian is too ideal to function in our complex world.
Just joshing with you. 100 percent libertarian is too ideal to function in our complex world.
50
I went to school in Bellevue, and we had an armed officer who was our special school officer, always lurking the halls. He was a formidable Asian man, who stood about 7 feet tall (I shit you not, this man was a mountain.) Officer Fry. We called him Supersize. He didn't seem to mind.
49
@45
Really?
“In March 2011, the Obama administration took a position opposing the Scholarships for Opportunity and Results Act, or SOAR Act, authored by Boehner and Lieberman to reauthorize the D.C. voucher program and provide additional funds. "The Administration strongly opposes expanding the D.C. Opportunity Scholarship Program and opening it to new students," the White House statement declared.” He did break down and sign the Act a few weeks later, but only as part of negotiations to prevent a government shutdown.
Has he come to his senses and flipped and flopped on this when I wasn’t looking? (If so, good for him!)
@46
I place no value on ideological purity for the purity's sake.
Libertarian or not, I firmly believe that mandatory gun training for everyone would be an excellent idea. Make it part of the basic educational curriculum we already regard as mandatory to keep child protective services out of your business (reading, writing, arithmetic and gun handling).
I also feel I could be persuaded that mandatory participation in a militia (in the form of a private, non-government force, neither supported nor sanctioned by the government), could be a workable solution, if not to qualify for gun ownership, at least as a self-regulating channel for ammunition distribution and liability coverage. I think this is more than reasonable.
Just thinking out loud: Make the ammo traceable to the particular militia that distributed it and make each militia liable for wrongful or accidental death caused by their ammo and require each militia to carry adequate liability insurance (or self-insure). Put Federally mandated (and really fucking draconian) penalties in place for people caught with stolen or un-marked ammunition. Something like life in prison without chance of parole (or bring back permanent exile on penalty of death). I think I could be persuaded that this is reasonable. (Have all the guns you want, but if you want bullets, you need to be a member in good standing of a militia that will accept responsibility for the results of your actions.)
More...
Really?
“In March 2011, the Obama administration took a position opposing the Scholarships for Opportunity and Results Act, or SOAR Act, authored by Boehner and Lieberman to reauthorize the D.C. voucher program and provide additional funds. "The Administration strongly opposes expanding the D.C. Opportunity Scholarship Program and opening it to new students," the White House statement declared.” He did break down and sign the Act a few weeks later, but only as part of negotiations to prevent a government shutdown.
Has he come to his senses and flipped and flopped on this when I wasn’t looking? (If so, good for him!)
@46
I place no value on ideological purity for the purity's sake.
Libertarian or not, I firmly believe that mandatory gun training for everyone would be an excellent idea. Make it part of the basic educational curriculum we already regard as mandatory to keep child protective services out of your business (reading, writing, arithmetic and gun handling).
I also feel I could be persuaded that mandatory participation in a militia (in the form of a private, non-government force, neither supported nor sanctioned by the government), could be a workable solution, if not to qualify for gun ownership, at least as a self-regulating channel for ammunition distribution and liability coverage. I think this is more than reasonable.
Just thinking out loud: Make the ammo traceable to the particular militia that distributed it and make each militia liable for wrongful or accidental death caused by their ammo and require each militia to carry adequate liability insurance (or self-insure). Put Federally mandated (and really fucking draconian) penalties in place for people caught with stolen or un-marked ammunition. Something like life in prison without chance of parole (or bring back permanent exile on penalty of death). I think I could be persuaded that this is reasonable. (Have all the guns you want, but if you want bullets, you need to be a member in good standing of a militia that will accept responsibility for the results of your actions.)
44
@42
I said look to. Not duplicate.
BTW, I am ok with mandatory draft and mandatory training, though I think mandatory training would be adequate (and have already said as much in other posts today).
I said look to. Not duplicate.
BTW, I am ok with mandatory draft and mandatory training, though I think mandatory training would be adequate (and have already said as much in other posts today).
42
@23, and all of your uneducated bullshit.
If you'd like to look to Switzerland I think that's a great idea. Yes, all military aged adult males (they may have extended it to females since I checked last) are issued an assault rifle. However ammunition is extremely well regulated. It's illegal for private citizens to have ammunition outside the firing range. Military aged males are automatically drafted into the military and must go to the range to practice monthly. They're issued a certain number of bullets and must return the same number of empty shells.
If you're ok with mandatory draft, mandatory training and an absolute ban on owning any ammunition I'm open to considering the other Swiss rules.
If you'd like to look to Switzerland I think that's a great idea. Yes, all military aged adult males (they may have extended it to females since I checked last) are issued an assault rifle. However ammunition is extremely well regulated. It's illegal for private citizens to have ammunition outside the firing range. Military aged males are automatically drafted into the military and must go to the range to practice monthly. They're issued a certain number of bullets and must return the same number of empty shells.
If you're ok with mandatory draft, mandatory training and an absolute ban on owning any ammunition I'm open to considering the other Swiss rules.
41
@40
So you're saying that Carter decided to burden a public school district with the expense and distraction of tending the President's kids, instead of paying the exorbitant tuition at a private school that knows how to deal with the security issues?
Stevens Elementary School and Hardy Middle School (both public Washington, D.C. schools) were good enough for Amy Carter (and her pro-public-school-president-of-a-father), why on earth shouldn’t they be good enough for the Obama’s girls (unless, of course, he doesn’t want his girls mingling with the lower classes).
But again, all that I'm saying is that if a politician is against programs that get poor kids out of public schools and into private schools he looks like a hypocrite if he sends his kids to a private school. It says "public school isn't good enough for my rich kids but it's just fine for your poor kids. So suck it." Just show me the program that Obama supports that offers the same opportunities to poor kids as those that he pays for for his own kids and I will withdraw my observation.
Although I must admit that I'm puzzled that such a "man of the people" would send his children to such an elitist institution...
So you're saying that Carter decided to burden a public school district with the expense and distraction of tending the President's kids, instead of paying the exorbitant tuition at a private school that knows how to deal with the security issues?
Stevens Elementary School and Hardy Middle School (both public Washington, D.C. schools) were good enough for Amy Carter (and her pro-public-school-president-of-a-father), why on earth shouldn’t they be good enough for the Obama’s girls (unless, of course, he doesn’t want his girls mingling with the lower classes).
But again, all that I'm saying is that if a politician is against programs that get poor kids out of public schools and into private schools he looks like a hypocrite if he sends his kids to a private school. It says "public school isn't good enough for my rich kids but it's just fine for your poor kids. So suck it." Just show me the program that Obama supports that offers the same opportunities to poor kids as those that he pays for for his own kids and I will withdraw my observation.
Although I must admit that I'm puzzled that such a "man of the people" would send his children to such an elitist institution...
40
YGBKM You are continuing to miss the problem with vouchers. They defund the schools where most poor kids will go with or without vouchers. You can argue coulda woulda shoulda but the reality is most poor kids will stay in their public schools even when underfunded. They mostly benefit the people who run the private or charter schools, the parents who want some kind of limited real world exposure/indoctrination for their kids, the wealthy who are already sending their kids to private school. The also bennefit a few upper middle class parents who almost can afford private school but otherwise can't.
They hurt poor kids way more than they help.
They hurt poor kids way more than they help.
39
@35- Or maybe he's saying "Rather than burden a public school district with the expense and distraction of tending the President's kids, I'll pay the exorbitant tuition at a private school that knows how to deal with the security issues."
Vouchers are a scam to destroy quality public education.
Vouchers are a scam to destroy quality public education.
38
The prestigious Sidwell Friends School is located on Wisconsin Avenue NW in the District of Columbia, within walking distance to the equally prestigious Georgetown Day School and the almost equally prestigious public school Woodrow Wilson HS. All of these schools are in Upper Northwest DC - all within walking distance to the Friendship/Tenleytown Metro Red Line station. Only Sidwell's lower school (k-5) is located in nearby and adjacent Bethesda, Maryland.
37
@36
All that I am saying is that if a politician is against programs that get poor kids out of public schools and into private schools he looks like a hypocrite if he sends his kids to a private school. It says "public school isn't good enough for my rich kids but it's just fine for your poor kids. So suck it." That's all I'm saying. Nothing more. Nothing less.
All that I am saying is that if a politician is against programs that get poor kids out of public schools and into private schools he looks like a hypocrite if he sends his kids to a private school. It says "public school isn't good enough for my rich kids but it's just fine for your poor kids. So suck it." That's all I'm saying. Nothing more. Nothing less.
36
@35 Yearly tuition at Sidwell Friends is well over $30K. Are you proposing to give a $30K voucher to every student out there? Or just a $10K voucher to give a tuition break to rich kids and, in effect, nothing to poor kids?
35
@33
I'm saying that if a politician is against programs that get poor kids out of public schools and into private schools he looks like a hypocrite if he sends his kids to a private school. It says "public school isn't good enough for my rich kids but it's just fine for your poor kids. So suck it."
I'm saying that if a politician is against programs that get poor kids out of public schools and into private schools he looks like a hypocrite if he sends his kids to a private school. It says "public school isn't good enough for my rich kids but it's just fine for your poor kids. So suck it."
34
@6, 15 - "Also if a cop is going to be a jerk does race really matter?"
Yes. In this country, it matters. We're still a pretty racist country. It has been shown that the minority group most selected for violent oppression is the one that is weaker, yet respected. So yes, black kids are going to get more shit from school cops than white kids.
Cops are trained to escalate situations, so that they can ensure they "win" any confrontation. They are backed by guns and courts to guarantee that their escalation is validated.
In order to benefit civil peace, do we really want people who are trained to use violence to escalate situations hanging around our children in schools?
Doesn't it seem better to teach de-escalation and negotiation skills to children, rather than have yet another authority figure around who will escalate the situation all the way to jail if provoked?
As has been pointed out, Columbine had an armed guard, and that didn't stop the horror there. We have no evidence that having armed people in schools will be able to stop massacres. That is pure conjecture on the NRAs part. Yet the downsides of posting cops in schools are clear.
The cost-benefit analysis of doing this, I would forward, just doesn't work out in anyone's favor.
Yes. In this country, it matters. We're still a pretty racist country. It has been shown that the minority group most selected for violent oppression is the one that is weaker, yet respected. So yes, black kids are going to get more shit from school cops than white kids.
Cops are trained to escalate situations, so that they can ensure they "win" any confrontation. They are backed by guns and courts to guarantee that their escalation is validated.
In order to benefit civil peace, do we really want people who are trained to use violence to escalate situations hanging around our children in schools?
Doesn't it seem better to teach de-escalation and negotiation skills to children, rather than have yet another authority figure around who will escalate the situation all the way to jail if provoked?
As has been pointed out, Columbine had an armed guard, and that didn't stop the horror there. We have no evidence that having armed people in schools will be able to stop massacres. That is pure conjecture on the NRAs part. Yet the downsides of posting cops in schools are clear.
The cost-benefit analysis of doing this, I would forward, just doesn't work out in anyone's favor.
33
@31- So you're saying we have a right to private schooling? If not, why should we support vouchers?
32
@19- I agree, lets do what the Swiss do.
They don't have armed guards at every school. Concealed carry permits are really hard to get. Individuals have a right to bear arms in the militia.
They don't have armed guards at every school. Concealed carry permits are really hard to get. Individuals have a right to bear arms in the militia.
31
@27
I think his family is entitled to protection (that’s what the Secret Service does). I think he should be able to send his kids to whatever school he likes. But I also think it’s grotesquely hypocritical for any wealthy politician to send his kids to private schools and then not support programs, like voucher programs, that enable poorer families to do the same.
I think his family is entitled to protection (that’s what the Secret Service does). I think he should be able to send his kids to whatever school he likes. But I also think it’s grotesquely hypocritical for any wealthy politician to send his kids to private schools and then not support programs, like voucher programs, that enable poorer families to do the same.
30
@2- The Sidwell Friends School has been the school of choice for presidential families since Theodore Roosevelt, so it is unremarkable it has a long history of exceptional safety provisions.
29
This is awesome, in the same post slighting the NRA and presumably civilian gun owners, the mob here is taking a swipe at police.
logic fail.
logic fail.
28
It probably wont be his arrest record that keeps him from getting a job, but his apparent history of telling crude jokes at school (and later in life, at work), that probably will.
27
@23 you didn't answer my question about the president. I was being serious. I don't think you're being a fascist. Just knee-jerkingly anti-Obama.
26
pretty sure that mouthing off is one of our protected rights and in fact could be argued what our country was founded on
23
@22
Switzerland has regulations that allow for high levels of gun ownership (4th in the world) and provide for remarkably low incidents of gun violence. Making them, arguably, an excellent example to look to if we decide to modify how we regulate guns. FYI: We regulate guns here now and I've never said they should not be regulated.
So fuck off you ignorant cunt.
Also, I don't think you know what the work "fascist" means, but that isn't surprising since you have shit for brains.
Switzerland has regulations that allow for high levels of gun ownership (4th in the world) and provide for remarkably low incidents of gun violence. Making them, arguably, an excellent example to look to if we decide to modify how we regulate guns. FYI: We regulate guns here now and I've never said they should not be regulated.
So fuck off you ignorant cunt.
Also, I don't think you know what the work "fascist" means, but that isn't surprising since you have shit for brains.
22
@9,
YGBKM is a fascist, nothing more, nothing less.
@19,
Switzerland tightly regulates its guns. So, yes, let's do that, you fucking ignoramus.
YGBKM is a fascist, nothing more, nothing less.
@19,
Switzerland tightly regulates its guns. So, yes, let's do that, you fucking ignoramus.
21
I don't own a Glock ,I don't like them, I have a beretta 92. I keep all my guns locked up when not on me. So I plan and practice how to access my guns when needed. My wife also has a permit and happens to be a better handgun shooter than I am. Tyranny is relative and I am not comfortable with the governments you mentioned which is why I am an American. And as far as standing army concerns, the US's recent issues with the civil liberties have more to do with the police state and war on drugs than the army. Unless you are referring to the wars in the Middle East which those countries joined in on.
19
@17 "why not just do what England and Canada and Australia do". Ironic choices… We actually threw the shackles of that particular monarchy off some time ago. It was that particular monarchy that taught our forefathers that the right to bear arms was essential. We are not the Queens subjects.
Let’s aspire to do what Switzerland does instead. They seem happy.
Let’s aspire to do what Switzerland does instead. They seem happy.
17
@16 -- please explain, how does your glock protect you at night? if you keep it in the gun safe, it's not there for the armed intruder, is it?
how does your glock protect your wife and kid and the mall? when you're not there?
and finally, why not just do what england and canada and australia do, they're not exactly at risk of descending into tyranny, out of them plus the usa clearly the usa has engaged in more standing-army-leading-to tyranny type stuff lately. right?
how does your glock protect your wife and kid and the mall? when you're not there?
and finally, why not just do what england and canada and australia do, they're not exactly at risk of descending into tyranny, out of them plus the usa clearly the usa has engaged in more standing-army-leading-to tyranny type stuff lately. right?
16
So we can't have guns because the police will protect us but we can't trust cops on schools either? How about protecting yourself and your family is partially a personal responsibility. Just like I don't trust schools or my rabbi to teach my kids everything about the world I don't trust the government to be there till after there is a crime. But hey, what do I know, I'm just a gun nut.
15
@6
"Also if a cop is going to be a jerk does race really matter?"
Probably not.
But we should swap them out for cops who aren't jerks.
"Also if a cop is going to be a jerk does race really matter?"
Probably not.
But we should swap them out for cops who aren't jerks.
14
What could go wrong with self-chosen armed volunteers patrolling our schools? Oh, right: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murders_of_…
13
And then there is Sen. Barbara Boxer's WTF: http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-… Must be KoolAid®™© in the water down there in CA. Cripes.
11
My high school had a cop in it year round, and this was over a decade ago. His name was Officer Der, and he was about 5 feet tall. He never did anything but chat to teachers as far as I could tell.
If we are going to have cops in schools, as thousands already do, can we at least have a screening process to only allow cops who have no violent record and no anger issues to perform that duty?
If we are going to have cops in schools, as thousands already do, can we at least have a screening process to only allow cops who have no violent record and no anger issues to perform that duty?
10
@6 I went to a highschool that always had an armed police officer there. While there, I did witness some static between the white officer and the black students (who were the majority), they replaced him with a black officer and it really seemed to help. The kids felt a lot safer having a cop they felt they could turn to. Or at least it seemed that way to me.
9
@3 well, the NRA is all about selling guns. So that'd add a huge market for them.
@2 a couple things: are you saying that Obama as a super rich guy shouldn't send his kids to private school? Are you also saying the president's children shouldn't be protected? Lastly, as a libertarian, are you for the expansion of government?
@2 a couple things: are you saying that Obama as a super rich guy shouldn't send his kids to private school? Are you also saying the president's children shouldn't be protected? Lastly, as a libertarian, are you for the expansion of government?
8
Fundamentally, that appears to be the macro plan.
Their austerity programs, taken with prison privatization and educational defunding, reads like Reinhard Heydrich's "The solution to the Jewish problem" --- and if you think I'm exaggerating, go back and read it again.
Their austerity programs, taken with prison privatization and educational defunding, reads like Reinhard Heydrich's "The solution to the Jewish problem" --- and if you think I'm exaggerating, go back and read it again.
7
I love 30 round clips more than I like freedom. If the second amendment means tyranny for some obviously it's entirely worth it. Who the fuck are these people and what happened to the parts of them that were human?
6
I dunno it could be good to have them there along with other gun control measures. Yes won't stop every incident but other gun controls measures won't stop every incident either so should we not implement them. This talk of being a police state is a overreaction from the left who always paranoid.
Also if a cop is going to be a jerk does race really matter?
Also if a cop is going to be a jerk does race really matter?
4
My thoughts exactly... why the f#ck is the NRA proposing to expand the powers of the state?
Probably because it's the only proposal they could come up with that didn't involve banning guns from cities, banning assault weapons, closing gun-show loopholes, or requiring gun-owners to be responsible, take extensive training, buy trigger locks, and carry insurance.
How about we post police in every NRA office in the country, and then see how the NRA feels about that.
Probably because it's the only proposal they could come up with that didn't involve banning guns from cities, banning assault weapons, closing gun-show loopholes, or requiring gun-owners to be responsible, take extensive training, buy trigger locks, and carry insurance.
How about we post police in every NRA office in the country, and then see how the NRA feels about that.
3
My thought exactly.. why the f#ck is the NRA proposing to expand the powers of the state?
Probably bcz it's the only proposal they could come up with that didn't involve banning assault weapons, banning guns from cities, closing gun-show loopholes, or requiring gun-owners to buy insurance.
We should probably just post police officers in every NRA office in the country, and see how they feel about that.
Probably bcz it's the only proposal they could come up with that didn't involve banning assault weapons, banning guns from cities, closing gun-show loopholes, or requiring gun-owners to buy insurance.
We should probably just post police officers in every NRA office in the country, and see how they feel about that.
2
So a hood in a Bronx school mouths off to a cop and the cop reacts… Shocking!
Meanwhile, the prestigious Sidwell Friends School (Located in Bethesda, Md.) has reportedly always been staffed with armed guards and the students seem to be able to co-exist just fine with them.
FYI: This is the exclusive private school the Obama’s send their daughters to (avoiding the public school system), and no… the school had armed guards long before it had presidential daughters as students.
So Obama mocks the idea of staffing schools with armed guards while enjoying the security of sending his daughters to a school with armed guards. Hard to believe…
Meanwhile, the prestigious Sidwell Friends School (Located in Bethesda, Md.) has reportedly always been staffed with armed guards and the students seem to be able to co-exist just fine with them.
FYI: This is the exclusive private school the Obama’s send their daughters to (avoiding the public school system), and no… the school had armed guards long before it had presidential daughters as students.
So Obama mocks the idea of staffing schools with armed guards while enjoying the security of sending his daughters to a school with armed guards. Hard to believe…
1
Good idea - we spend more money per prisoner than per student, so if schools were prisons, they'd be better funded! Goldy, you are a genius. Again.
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