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81
Weak men fear strong women. That is all I have to say.
Posted by harriettubman on December 30, 2012 at 8:20 PM · Report this
80

The United States has the world’s highest rape rate of all countries that publish such data- 13 times higher than England and more than 20 times higher than Japan (12).
An American woman is 10 times more likely to be raped than to die in a car crash (13).
61% of rape victims are females under the age of 18 (14).
Contrary to common belief that violent crime rates are notably lower in rural areas, a recent analysis of location data collected for the 1999 National Women’s Study found that 10.1% of women living in rural areas had experienced a completed rape as compared to 13.6% of women living in urban and suburban communities—hardly a notably lower rate.

Lewis, S. 2003. Unspoken Crimes: Sexual Assault in Rural America, Enola, PA: National Sexual Violence Resource Center
Posted by harriettubman on December 30, 2012 at 8:18 PM · Report this
79
Well, at least this was a real rape, not one if those manufactured by the rape industrial complex that have spawned on American college campuses to help find work for womyn's studies majors who want to criminalize the bahavior of drunk borish students, both male and female.
Posted by The same ones who claim 1 in 3 college women are raped on December 30, 2012 at 6:02 PM · Report this
Matt from Denver 78
@ 77, you know what reflects poorly upon you? The fact that you couldn't be bothered to read the comments, therefore finding that that's all been satisfactorily addressed.

Read before you post. You look smarter when you do.
Posted by Matt from Denver on December 29, 2012 at 5:23 PM · Report this
TortoiseTurtle 77
Using rape victims as anecdotal evidence against the obvious and further smear an entire half of society reflects poorly on the author. Men and women should both be offended at the shameless exploitation of a victim of rape to just to attack men.
Posted by TortoiseTurtle http://slog.thestranger.com on December 29, 2012 at 5:14 PM · Report this
Matt from Denver 76
@ 75, good thing you're not for censorship. Banning YGBKM wouldn't represent censorship.

Anyway, he generally knows to behave himself, and he has since then. The Stranger, out of the typically misguided sense of fairness common to those of us on the left, probably won't ban him unless he degenerates to making those comments regularly.

Also, if they ban YGBKM for those remarks, Fnarf has been just as bad on occasion, including when he tells 5280 to kill himself, which he did just yesterday - and not for the first time IIRC. He would have to go, too, if they're going to be fair about it. I can't see that happening, though.
Posted by Matt from Denver on December 29, 2012 at 9:32 AM · Report this
attitude devant 75
I'm not much for censorship, but why ISN'T YGBKM banned? Those comments were vile, and gratuitously so.

Posted by attitude devant on December 29, 2012 at 8:40 AM · Report this
Lissa 74
@ 70: Thanks for that.
Posted by Lissa on December 28, 2012 at 7:29 PM · Report this
73
No worries there. These discussions would first need to commence and remain on-topic before that could happen.
Posted by spinflux on December 28, 2012 at 5:00 PM · Report this
72
@71: "God forbid a conversation on rape of women focus on something other than the male manly men's opinions."

That's 62's point, I think. Trollbaiting will only turn the discussion off-topic.
Posted by doceb on December 28, 2012 at 4:41 PM · Report this
71
@62 "…predicting (sarcastically or not) that males will instinctively attempt to justify rape will not lead to a real discussion about the issue…"

Right. To have a "real" discussion let's instead revolve the entire thread around one attention-whoring dipshit's feelings, and the rest of it around the opinions of a few talkative dudes and the irrelevant points they're are trying to make. God forbid a conversation on rape of women focus on something other than the male manly men's opinions.
Posted by spinflux on December 28, 2012 at 4:30 PM · Report this
70
@57 - Right there with you, and you summed it up pretty perfectly.
Posted by goodjobguy on December 28, 2012 at 3:53 PM · Report this
treacle 69
And now she's died.
Posted by treacle on December 28, 2012 at 2:27 PM · Report this
treacle 68
That news story makes me very sad. I hope the bastards are well punished. So goddamn horribly unbelievable...

@58 - Probably the most irrelevant and stupid thing you've said in days.

@62 - There is nothing particularly sensational about the last sentence in Cienna's post. Your comment is amazingly obtuse, and provides the exact meaningless discussion you allegedly decry ("nonetheless..."). Also, the previous 61 comments prove you quite wrong.

I'm somewhat surprised to see Mr. Gorath being as blind as he is to sexual politics, he's usually rather level headed. But then perhaps I've missed the conversations about sexism that have taken place previously.

Onward...
Posted by treacle on December 28, 2012 at 2:25 PM · Report this
67
The 23-year-old Delhi bus-gang-rape victim has died in hospital.
Posted by Brooklyn Reader on December 28, 2012 at 2:11 PM · Report this
66
@65 thanks for providing that. I really didn't understand why YGTBKM had to be such a dick in that thread. It was a cute photo, seemed awfully benign. I guess it is the Internet, stupidity rises to the top like heavy cream in fresh milk.
Posted by CbytheSea on December 28, 2012 at 1:48 PM · Report this
Pick1 65
@62 Let's add some context for you. I assume you did not read Cienna's perfectly harmless post from yesterday with a photo of her feeding a fry to a chicken. In which, YGBKM's stick got lodged so far up his own ass that he started to vomit onto the keyboard.

Shall we explore?

"I'm actually pleased to see Cienna sticking to topics she's qualified to talk about. A hen that love french fries. That about sums it up"

"Then who is the ugly bitch carrying [the chicken]?"

"Fuck you cunt. you're just a very cheap copy of Ciennna anyway. Except even more ragged out. From your posts today I assume you’re having a very heavy flow day? Why don't you do us all a favor and take a hand full of Valium and lay down for a while?"

There. Some context.
Posted by Pick1 on December 28, 2012 at 1:40 PM · Report this
Lissa 64
@58: God, what stupid, stupid comment.

Signed,
A woman and gun owner.
Posted by Lissa on December 28, 2012 at 1:31 PM · Report this
63
@62 I think you're still failing to see the broader context of Cienna's post.
Posted by CbytheSea on December 28, 2012 at 1:22 PM · Report this
62
predicting (sarcastically or not) that males will instinctively attempt to justify rape will not lead to a real discussion about the issue. All it will turn into is a meaningless discussion about whether or not that type of sensationalist rhetoric was justified. nonetheless, that last sentence is like Rush Limbaugh style feminism, its trash.
Posted by hross361 on December 28, 2012 at 1:15 PM · Report this
Pick1 61
@58 BIG.

FAT.

sigh....................
Posted by Pick1 on December 28, 2012 at 1:05 PM · Report this
60
@54 yeah, that's realistic. She lives in India, how on earth could she afford one?
Posted by CbytheSea on December 28, 2012 at 12:55 PM · Report this
59
As a dude, I've witnessed way too many examples of sexism towards women, whether it's in the workplace, on the Internet or out in the real world.
I have to admit though I've never ran into sexism aimed at me. Hell, I went to TESC and took some classes that were pretty heavy in feminist theory. When you hear about the imbalance of power between men and women, it's pretty easy to look around and go "well, no duh". At the end of the day, it's easy to remember some dudes are blissfully unaware misogynists and others are working on treating people as people.
I find the 'men's rights' stuff pretty dumb. The deck is already stacked in your favor. Why do you need more?
Posted by CbytheSea on December 28, 2012 at 12:54 PM · Report this
Cascadian Bacon 58
Sounds like a reason to conceal carry.

6 men with an iron bar are not match for a girl with a Glock 19.
Posted by Cascadian Bacon on December 28, 2012 at 12:49 PM · Report this
Lissa 57
@ All y'all taking Theodore @50 to task:

Thank you. I'm just too fucking tired to even try with him today. Honestly men like him, men of essentially good will, whose lives are so wrapped in cotton wool that they might as well be living in an episode of My Little Pony...... They make me want to weep from exhaustion and fear.

So, thank you.
Posted by Lissa on December 28, 2012 at 12:45 PM · Report this
Pick1 56
@54 Someone called me a heterophobe the other day. I think they're going with that.
Posted by Pick1 on December 28, 2012 at 12:25 PM · Report this
Pick1 55
@50 The problem with arguing all sexism is the same problem with arguing reverse-racism as still more racism. It ignores historical context and gives an excuse to those who are practicing the worst kinds of misogyny and racism because they're "being bullied just as bad."

They aren't.

In a perfect world we would address all equality instead of working with scales of what's worst and moving from there.

This world aint perfect and thus we prioritize the worst offenses.
Posted by Pick1 on December 28, 2012 at 12:23 PM · Report this
blip 54
@50 Sexism is inherently worse for women than men (see: history, present) so right off the bat you're in apples-v-oranges territory by simply flipping the script and reversing genders. Yes, sexism is bad no matter where it's directed, but it's less bad for some than others due to deeply ingrained structural inequalities in the culture you and I live in. See also, racism (bad for everyone, less bad for white people), homophobia (bad for everyone but worse for gay people, to the point that we don't even have a word to describe the inverse).
Posted by blip on December 28, 2012 at 12:14 PM · Report this
Matt from Denver 53
@ 50, when you bring up the idea that sexism can come from anyone, you introduce the boiled-down concepts of misandry and misogyny. It may have been unintentional, but there it is.

And I respectfully disagree. You introduced a hypothetical situation in which the gender roles were reversed to make a point, but that situation is not realistic. Why not? Because only a sexist male could make such a statement. But any woman, sexists or not, can say what Cienna wrote.

Sorry if you think this is a circle jerk, but it actually is not; ironically, your comments highlight why.
Posted by Matt from Denver on December 28, 2012 at 12:08 PM · Report this
TVDinner 52
Oops. I mean @50.

(Great. Now I just proved that girls can't do math.)
Posted by TVDinner http:// on December 28, 2012 at 11:54 AM · Report this
TVDinner 51
@51: That's reductionist thinking that shows no understanding of uneven power dynamics or context.
Posted by TVDinner http:// on December 28, 2012 at 11:53 AM · Report this
Theodore Gorath 50
@42, 43: I am not talking about misandry, I am not talking about rape, and I am not claiming that misandry and misogyny are equal problems. You demonstrate so well why rational conversation on these topics becomes impossible: any statement becomes conflated with personal feelings and wild speculation that it just becomes tiresome. A circle jerk.

All I said was that sexism was wrong, regardless of gender, and even that is met with resistance and accusations of ignorance. I see no hope in eliminating sexism when the answer to sexism seems to be more sexism.

Thanks for proving my point.
Posted by Theodore Gorath on December 28, 2012 at 11:45 AM · Report this
TVDinner 49
Honestly, doceb, I think you're just not aware of what went on in yesterday's posts about the french fry eating chicken and equal pay. Cienna's comments, the ones you object to, are a pretty mild response to that. If you haven't scrolled through that, maybe now is the time.

Also, here's just one quick article I found that maybe gives you a broader perspective on the context in which "dudes-telling-women-how-they-should-talk-about-stuff" is such a hot-button issue: http://jezebel.com/5917887/when-theres-s…

I give you a lot of credit for sticking around to have this discussion.
Posted by TVDinner http:// on December 28, 2012 at 11:44 AM · Report this
48
"Your biggest infraction is talking down to other commenters on the post."

I wasn't asking you.
(Kidding, of course. Thanks for the input.)
Posted by doceb on December 28, 2012 at 11:44 AM · Report this
Pick1 47
@46 Your biggest infraction is talking down to other commenters on the post. What reasoning should you use to overcome that thought process? That's up to you.

Making arguments about correlation vs causation while ignoring context was also pretty apparent. If you assume that Cienna's one "(male)" little addition meant that she was casting every single male commenter as misogynistic pieces of shit means that you are clearly ignoring such context.
Posted by Pick1 on December 28, 2012 at 11:41 AM · Report this
46
@TVDinner: I don't want to leave this discussion pissed off with no positive outcome. What do you think my biggest infraction was, and what line of reasoning should I use to best overcome that thought process?
Posted by doceb on December 28, 2012 at 11:31 AM · Report this
45
Why do we pour billions into countries that don't have our equivalent rule of law and individual rights? Why is the Obama administration trying to make us more like the "rest of the world"?

Posted by Supreme Ruler Of The Universe http://_ on December 28, 2012 at 11:28 AM · Report this
44
@43: "Misandry isn't 1/100th the problem that misogyny is."

Indeed; often people don't see past "my friend's ex-wife really hosed him in the divorce." The statistics on gender and violence in that article are shocking, and really ought to be used to open any discussion on the issue.
Posted by doceb on December 28, 2012 at 11:20 AM · Report this
Matt from Denver 43
@ 40, we can't just jump to a world where gender doesn't matter when shit like these rapes still happen. (And more importantly, the attitudes of other men regarding these rapes.) There isn't a real world, mirror-image equivalent that supports your let's-change-the-gender exercise. Misandry isn't 1/100th the problem that misogyny is.
Posted by Matt from Denver on December 28, 2012 at 11:15 AM · Report this
TVDinner 42
@40: Because power dynamics don't matter at all, right?
Posted by TVDinner http:// on December 28, 2012 at 11:13 AM · Report this
41
"2. That some individuals, men specifically, are so divorced from their cultural contexts that they are not part of a culture that creates acceptance of and tolerance for gross abuses of women's basic humanity."

I'll state for the record, then: I fully believe that tolerance for gross abuses of anybody's (women's in particular) basic humanity is a problem that everyone needs to face.

Shutting people out of that conversation by painting large groups with the same brush is not conducive towards that effort.
Posted by doceb on December 28, 2012 at 11:11 AM · Report this
Theodore Gorath 40
You have to admit though, if someone made a post and then suggested in the last paragraph that only women say stupid things on that topic, the same exact arguments would be taking place, with the genders reversed.

So can we just get off of this circle jerk and admit that sexism is wrong despite who it is directed against, and that sexism directed towards anyone promotes an environment where sexism is tolerated in general?

Isn't the whole point supposed to be that gender does not matter?
Posted by Theodore Gorath on December 28, 2012 at 11:10 AM · Report this
TVDinner 39
I hardly think Cienna was trolling, considering the vitriol that greeted her post yesterday about equal pay. Hell, an innocuous post about a chicken that eats french fries got a heaping serving of bile. All of this is happening in a context of a larger discussion of women getting systematically menaced every time they have the nerve to speak on the interwebs. I'm tired of it. I'm sick and tired of seeing talented women getting bullied every goddamn time they open their mouths, and if you don't realize that the ways in which women are attacked online are more personal and vitriolic than men are, you're not paying attention.

And that circles right back to the idea of being privileged without even knowing it.
Posted by TVDinner http:// on December 28, 2012 at 11:09 AM · Report this
Matt from Denver 38
@ 37, were you thinking of me when you wrote that last paragraph? Because if so, you're at fault for writing what you wrote in the context of this discussion.

You're indicating in some of your comments that you regard this thread as one that stands on its own. But it is actually a continuation of related threads posted over the past couple of days. Cienna wasn't "trolling," she was addressing some of the male commenters from those threads.
Posted by Matt from Denver on December 28, 2012 at 11:09 AM · Report this
37
@34: "That it's necessary to point out that not all men are assholes, which implies that you think some of us are so stupid that we need to have that pointed out."

When I claimed I'd blame the rapists for rapes over internet trolls, people immediately assumed I was excluding all others from blame. So yeah, I do think some of you are so stupid you need to have that pointed out.
Posted by doceb on December 28, 2012 at 11:02 AM · Report this
36
@29: That's a fair point, if we're speaking in generalities. The issue I take with this specific instance is that Cienna trolled, someone took the bait, and now you're pissed off because to you, it's a reinforcement of rape culture. Blaming women (as a group) for the actions of men (as a group or individually) is wrong, I agree. Pointing out that a specific person's phrasing may be discouraging others from positively involving themselves in the conversation isn't really analogous to that, is it?
Posted by doceb on December 28, 2012 at 10:58 AM · Report this
Matt from Denver 35
@ 28, @ 12 was addressing Cienna's last sentence, which itself was addressing the men whom, on previous threads, basically spoke to how raped women were incautious about getting themselves into situations where they can be raped.

Now, I wouldn't assume that every man who left such a comment did it out of a sense of blaming women for getting into those situations in the first place, but the fact of the matter is that most of those situations are pretty common, everyday sorts of things. If these same situations led to muggings, there would be much more of an outcry and a desire to make things safer.

@ 12 spoke out against Cienna's comment; and @ 17 answered it. Clearly, @ 17 was reminded of the "men's rights" movement which, aside from the issue of custody of children after divorce, is largely a bunch of babies who want to see women leave men alooooooone. They don't like hearing all those uppity women complain about all the things that make life harder for women than men (such as rape).

Perhaps @ 17 jumped to conclusions. Perhaps not - again, given the context, it's a fair way to read @ 12.
Posted by Matt from Denver on December 28, 2012 at 10:53 AM · Report this
TVDinner 34
doceb, in your causation versus correlation comment, you indicate that you believe the following:

1. That it's necessary to point out that not all men are assholes, which implies that you think some of us are so stupid that we need to have that pointed out.

2. That some individuals, men specifically, are so divorced from their cultural contexts that they are not part of a culture that creates acceptance of and tolerance for gross abuses of women's basic humanity.

The first is condescending, hence "mansplaining," and the second displays the very maddening sense of entitlement that you don't have to think about rape culture, because you think you are not an asshole.
Posted by TVDinner http:// on December 28, 2012 at 10:53 AM · Report this
33
I'm sure Father Piero Corsi could give them some advice to keep them safe.
Posted by Root on December 28, 2012 at 10:53 AM · Report this
Phoebe in Wallingford 32
14 and 21 are correct. Cienna, Goldy, Paul Constant, and a few other staffers, are prone to "spicing" their posts with emotionally driven paragraphs (though justified at times) spark a round of tangential babble and arguing that could all be avoided by simply wiring a more well rounded piece in the first place.
Then, perhaps, repeat perhaps, slogger comments guide the discussion into a more meaningful direction that gives justice to the underlying story.
Posted by Phoebe in Wallingford on December 28, 2012 at 10:47 AM · Report this
seatackled 31
Well, to be fair, there's Phoebe in Wallingford and I think there's someone who signed on as "Karina" the other day, so if we assume that they're women, then technically, the "always male" claim is inaccurate.

But to take the wording literally, you'd really have to have some really fucked up ideas--the men's rights kinds of ideas, like @19 says.
Posted by seatackled on December 28, 2012 at 10:43 AM · Report this
30
@27: I never said anything about feminists or feminism. I just cautioned against confusing correlation for causation. For that matter, I don't know the genders of anyone in this discussion besides Cienna.
Posted by doceb on December 28, 2012 at 10:43 AM · Report this
TVDinner 29
@28: Because it blames women for men's behavior. Duh.
Posted by TVDinner http:// on December 28, 2012 at 10:39 AM · Report this
28
@24: how is 12 an endorsement of rape culture? I mean that as a serious question.
Posted by doceb on December 28, 2012 at 10:36 AM · Report this
TVDinner 27
@23: We all really appreciate your mansplaining in 11. You know, because feminists obviously hate men and think they're all assholes. Isn't that the definition of feminism? Hatred of men?
Posted by TVDinner http:// on December 28, 2012 at 10:34 AM · Report this
Pick1 26
@20 My mistake, but my point remains.
Posted by Pick1 on December 28, 2012 at 10:34 AM · Report this
sikandro 25
@14. In what way is India sexually repressed?

Horrible situation.
Posted by sikandro on December 28, 2012 at 10:31 AM · Report this
Matt from Denver 24
@ 23, you did so implicitly by stating that the problem is pipe wielding rapists. Your phrasing suggests that you exclude everyone else, as doess the fact that you were answering a comment that was addressing rape culture.

Maybe that isn't what you meant, but I'll maintain that it's a fair reading of your statement, given the context of this conversation.
Posted by Matt from Denver on December 28, 2012 at 10:27 AM · Report this
23
@22: Am I being asked to answer for a fucked up culture? Please point out exactly where I excused anything.
Posted by doceb on December 28, 2012 at 10:18 AM · Report this
Matt from Denver 22
@ 18, the culture enables the pipe-wielding rapists. Or don't you think there's any effect when raped women are told to drop the matter and marry the rapist?
Posted by Matt from Denver on December 28, 2012 at 10:16 AM · Report this
Rotten666 21
Cienna can't help but lay some troll bait in every post.
Posted by Rotten666 on December 28, 2012 at 10:14 AM · Report this
20
I am not the author of 12.
Posted by doceb on December 28, 2012 at 10:13 AM · Report this
Pick1 19
@18 Whoops! I didn't mean to say that you were the entire problem, but guess what? The rapists aren't the only problem. Your comments @12 a big part of the problem. See, claiming yourself as a victim in this entire situation is stupid and ignorant and gives fuel to the "Men's Rights Activists"

Posted by Pick1 on December 28, 2012 at 10:11 AM · Report this
18
@17: I would suggest that pipe-wielding rapists are the problem.
Posted by doceb on December 28, 2012 at 10:01 AM · Report this
Pick1 17
@12 If a post like this makes you feel attacked. Then you're the problem.
Posted by Pick1 on December 28, 2012 at 9:56 AM · Report this
emor 16
@12 go back to r/mensrights.
Posted by emor on December 28, 2012 at 9:55 AM · Report this
TVDinner 15
@12: Yes. That is exactly what she wrote. Your reading comprehension skills are remarkable!
Posted by TVDinner http:// on December 28, 2012 at 9:40 AM · Report this
14
It seems like these sorts of things happen more often in traditional, deeply religious, sexually repressed societies. That doesn't really fit with the claim that the Dan Savage sex-positive homo-liberal agenda is degrading to women.
Posted by Ken Mehlman on December 28, 2012 at 9:38 AM · Report this
devinderry 13
How about this stat grab from the suicide article, "Official figures show that 228,650 of the total 256,329 violent crimes recorded last year in India were against women." That's 90% of the nation's violent crimes being directed at women. Fucking unbelievable.
Posted by devinderry on December 28, 2012 at 9:37 AM · Report this
12
what an irresponsible and lazy thing to write. group all men into a single mob of sex hungry villains, eager to justify gang rapes with steel pipes. I'm sure a male will read that post today and feel discouraged to make any effort in the future to understand and minimize the hardships faced by women across the globe. For, what good would any decent effort to empower women do if he'll remain pro-piperape in your eyes? Good job.
Posted by hross361 on December 28, 2012 at 9:32 AM · Report this
11
@9, 10: I don't disagree that there's a significant correlation between being an asshole on this topic and being male. This does not imply a causative relationship between being male and being an asshole, which is my only point.
Posted by doceb on December 28, 2012 at 9:18 AM · Report this
Pick1 10
Stop trying to oppress me with your vagina Cienna!

@8 Yes, they are assholes, but they are also always male. The problem is more about Misogyny then it is about people being assholes because they probably don't think they are being an asshole. They're just "saying what everyone is thinking!"
Posted by Pick1 on December 28, 2012 at 9:09 AM · Report this
9
@8: There's one thing all those assholes have in common. Let's see how long it takes for you to put your finger on it.
Posted by suddenlyorcas on December 28, 2012 at 9:09 AM · Report this
8
How incredibly sad.

"But I'm sure some wise (male) Slog commenter will explain to me how these women could've avoided their brutal gang rapes or, better yet, what they did to provoke these men into gang raping them."

Yes, the problem is that they are male, not that they're assholes.
Posted by doceb on December 28, 2012 at 9:03 AM · Report this
seatackled 7
@2

That seems like an incredibly dense statement even for you.
Posted by seatackled on December 28, 2012 at 8:51 AM · Report this
6
@2: you clearly didn't read the comments on Cienna's last post on the rapes in India.
Posted by Men Suck on December 28, 2012 at 8:48 AM · Report this
TVDinner 5
@2: Scroll down.
Posted by TVDinner http:// on December 28, 2012 at 8:47 AM · Report this
Matt from Denver 4
@ 2, I don't know if YGBKM has made such comments, but he's been just disgusting in his trolling of Cienna's posts lately. Like, ban-worthy disgusting. My money says that she had him in mind.
Posted by Matt from Denver on December 28, 2012 at 8:46 AM · Report this
TVDinner 3
Also: everyone knows that women who take public transportation are asking for it. Duh. Bitches who expect personal safety when in public are just naive, and they get what they're asking for.
Posted by TVDinner http:// on December 28, 2012 at 8:46 AM · Report this
Phoebe in Wallingford 2
Actually, I can't think of a single male slogger or troll who would make such comments as you suggest in your last paragraph, Cienna.
Not to say they don't exist however.

Posted by Phoebe in Wallingford on December 28, 2012 at 8:43 AM · Report this
TVDinner 1
I mean, you always assume that women face bias in your posts without actually proving it, Cienna. God, you're such a lazy reporter! Also, any and all mentions of your existence as a human being, especially if they involve the family you're visiting for the holidays while still blogging for our entertainment, indicates that you are a woman, which is highly offensive.

Bitch, get off the Internet! If you can't participate in the circle jerk fair and square, you don't deserve to be here!
Posted by TVDinner http:// on December 28, 2012 at 8:41 AM · Report this

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