Slog Comments
What to Tell Conspiracy Theorists Who Think That the Newtown School Shooting Didn't Actually Happen
1
LOL!!! "If I didn't see it it didn't exist." I got in SOOOO much trouble in my college Historiography class back in the day. I was being a smart ass and "seriously" supported the idea of how any of us could really know for certian ANYTHING happened before anyone of living memory was born? Maybe everything was just planted there just before the oldest living person was born? HOW CAN WE KNIOW!?!?!?!?
6
The conspiracy theory manifesto:
"When reality doesn't appear to support my beliefs, re-write reality until it does."
"When reality doesn't appear to support my beliefs, re-write reality until it does."
11
That's even worse than the creationists' argument against the Big Bang: "How do you know? Were you there?"
And it reminded me of this Onion piece:
http://www.theonion.com/video/us-high-sc…
And it reminded me of this Onion piece:
http://www.theonion.com/video/us-high-sc…
12
I've not bothered with any of this nonsense. But I did see this article on Salon this morning titled "Your comprehensive answer to every Sandy Hook conspiracy theory":
http://www.salon.com/2013/01/18/your_com…
http://www.salon.com/2013/01/18/your_com…
13
These answers all SUCK. Do any of you seriously think that reductio ad absurdum response is going to change the mind of a conspiracy theorist?
If you've never talked a real conspiracy theorist back to sanity, then you're not qualified to answer this question. Instead, shut up and help find somebody who knows the answer. I'd kind of like to find out myself, though I'm pessimistic about the ability of people to truly change.
If you've never talked a real conspiracy theorist back to sanity, then you're not qualified to answer this question. Instead, shut up and help find somebody who knows the answer. I'd kind of like to find out myself, though I'm pessimistic about the ability of people to truly change.
14
I hope I never meet one of these people because instead of giving them a rational explanation of why they are wrong, they are going to get a smack in the fucking mouth.
15
@ 7, I know telling you not to be a dope is like telling the sky not to be blue, but don't be a fucking dope, alright? Walmart and the gun manufacturers didn't make this up. People who are susceptible to conspiracy theories are already likely to be into guns; it isn't hard for them to imagine a new conspiracy, now that gun control is back thanks to Newtown.
17
Cienna, I like your answer, but it's only useful to a sentient being. Talking to someone whose brain is so paralyzed by dogma, gun lust, ideology and wingnut propaganda doesn't constitute talking to a sentient being.
Let your dog pee on its leg and continue on your way.
Let your dog pee on its leg and continue on your way.
18
I'm glad you all have the privilege to just mock/ignore/unfriend these crazy conspiracy-theory freaks, but it's a privilege not all of us enjoy. I got me one of those people in my family, and my family has exactly THREE OTHER PEOPLE in it (wait? What was that? cries of "leave your family!" already? I am not heartless). To make it worse, my uncle is a great, lovable guy in person, it's just that he promotes these hatefilled, vengeful theories in email.
So yeah, Cierra, your article is funny but useless to those of us who actually have to deal with conspiracy theorists. Luckily, my expectations of the stranger aren't so high, and there are better sources to turn to, like this article:
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2013/0116/S…
So yeah, Cierra, your article is funny but useless to those of us who actually have to deal with conspiracy theorists. Luckily, my expectations of the stranger aren't so high, and there are better sources to turn to, like this article:
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2013/0116/S…
21
Conspiracy theorists are just people of average-to-slightly-above-average intelligence (for the most part) who have a compulsive need to feel superior to everyone else, by "proving" they possess knowledge (always arcane, always suppressed by TPTB) the rest of us are either too dumb, too brainwashed, or too lazy to see for ourselves. It's just like religious mania, only with the conspiracy substituting for divine revelation.
23
@13, 18-
Why try to reason the conspiracy nuts back to reality? Because there are others watching or listening that could be persuaded to believe the nonsense, if just only for a short while. And they might then take other things the conspiracy kook repeats at face value rather than immediately suspecting it as crap.
I dont speak dieectly to the conspiracy-kook gun nut in my family, but i've countered his bullshit on facebook and caused other family members to begin to doubt the bullshit he spews.
I'll probably never stop him from believing every wingnut theory to come along but i'll be goddamned if I let him suck anyone else into his bubble of crazy.
Why try to reason the conspiracy nuts back to reality? Because there are others watching or listening that could be persuaded to believe the nonsense, if just only for a short while. And they might then take other things the conspiracy kook repeats at face value rather than immediately suspecting it as crap.
I dont speak dieectly to the conspiracy-kook gun nut in my family, but i've countered his bullshit on facebook and caused other family members to begin to doubt the bullshit he spews.
I'll probably never stop him from believing every wingnut theory to come along but i'll be goddamned if I let him suck anyone else into his bubble of crazy.
24
@21, yup, that's my father, a total conspiracy theorist, to a T. He also used to be extremely religious. I believe conspiracy theorists probably also have over-active pattern-recognition skills which lead them to see patterns that don't exist.
25
@21 "average to above average intelligence"
They've all got shit for brains. There's nothing intelligent about them.
They've all got shit for brains. There's nothing intelligent about them.
28
A good response to conspiracy theorists I heard recently is to actually respond to them with competing theories that you've heard.
Oh, you think the government intentionally planted bombs in the twin towers? Yeah that's a good theory. I heard it was actually israel and they used suicide bombers to target key structures of the building. Also Al Queda did hijack the plains but they were filled with high yield explosives provided by Iran.
The idea is that most conspiracy theorists will either acknowledge those as good ideas, despite the many conflicts that creates, or they will reject it without any better reasoning to back up their own opinion.
I look forward to trying this out on someone.
Oh, you think the government intentionally planted bombs in the twin towers? Yeah that's a good theory. I heard it was actually israel and they used suicide bombers to target key structures of the building. Also Al Queda did hijack the plains but they were filled with high yield explosives provided by Iran.
The idea is that most conspiracy theorists will either acknowledge those as good ideas, despite the many conflicts that creates, or they will reject it without any better reasoning to back up their own opinion.
I look forward to trying this out on someone.
29
So far, my response has been to click "Unfriend" and walk away from the computer muttering F-bombs.
30
@24, "over-active pattern-recognition skills which lead them to see patterns that don't exist" is a pretty good description of the human mind. We are ALL pattern-seekers. It's what made our biggest successes and our biggest failures as a species. It's what gave us science, but it's also what gave us fallacies all the way from eugenics to belief in "the hot hand" in sports. We HATE thinking that randomness plays a part in anything we do -- but of course it does.
31
there is some whack job in Texas that thinks every news story and shooting are staged. Snopes has done a good job here of sorting things out.... http://www.snopes.com/politics/guns/newt…
32
Next time you see him, sneak up behind him and punch him hard in the kidneys. If he gets mad, get indignant and insist that he never saw anyone punch him in the back and demand hard evidence that the incident occurred at all.
34
Reminds me of an old joke I heard when I went to school back east about how you know Idaho really exists since you've never been or met anyone from Idaho.
It fell flat on me since like many from Washington I have been to Idaho and know several people who live in Idaho, but I suppose that isn't true of your average Pennsylvanian.
It fell flat on me since like many from Washington I have been to Idaho and know several people who live in Idaho, but I suppose that isn't true of your average Pennsylvanian.
35
@23
Yes, it's not a matter of a point-by-point rebuttal. They'll just spawn ten alternative theories for every one you shoot down.
It has to do more with the tolerance of paranoia in general in American politics, and the practice of false equivalence in even quality news sources. Treating Fox News or the Daily Kos as legitimate news sources.
Also, the internet. Where a tiny fringe can be magnified. And where many of these theories are actually spread by jokers and trolls. It's a lot deeper than proving individual facts.
Yes, it's not a matter of a point-by-point rebuttal. They'll just spawn ten alternative theories for every one you shoot down.
It has to do more with the tolerance of paranoia in general in American politics, and the practice of false equivalence in even quality news sources. Treating Fox News or the Daily Kos as legitimate news sources.
Also, the internet. Where a tiny fringe can be magnified. And where many of these theories are actually spread by jokers and trolls. It's a lot deeper than proving individual facts.
36
@28- Yes, that's good too. I think XKCD may have started that idea (or at least was the first to put it into cartoon form).
The gist of it was to reply to Truthers with the competing theory that it was the gub'mint's way of disposing of a couple of outdated Chemtrail jets. And we all know how explosive the Chemtrail chemicals are, donchaknow...?
The gist of it was to reply to Truthers with the competing theory that it was the gub'mint's way of disposing of a couple of outdated Chemtrail jets. And we all know how explosive the Chemtrail chemicals are, donchaknow...?
37
@28,
I've already seen conspiracy theories that Israel was behind 9/11. Haven't you seen the claims that no Jewish workers showed up for work in the towers that day? A really adorable conspiracy theory I saw recently posited that Israel was behind riots in the Middle East. The evidence: some rioters had the Star of David tattooed under their clavicle. That Jews are religiously forbidden from getting tattoos apparently escapes anti-Semitic conspiracy nutters.
I've already seen conspiracy theories that Israel was behind 9/11. Haven't you seen the claims that no Jewish workers showed up for work in the towers that day? A really adorable conspiracy theory I saw recently posited that Israel was behind riots in the Middle East. The evidence: some rioters had the Star of David tattooed under their clavicle. That Jews are religiously forbidden from getting tattoos apparently escapes anti-Semitic conspiracy nutters.
38
I should point out, that as the population ages, and Seattle is included in that, the increase in paranoia and delusional beliefs will also increase.
It's also correlated with PTSD, and Seattle is known for having a very high number of veterans residing here.
So, "arguing" might not be the most effective strategy.
It's also correlated with PTSD, and Seattle is known for having a very high number of veterans residing here.
So, "arguing" might not be the most effective strategy.
40
This reminds me of the worst conversation I ever experienced in my life. Someone I considered (stress the "ed") well educated said that these days scientists are like the priests of the Catholic church during the dark ages. That what the scientists say must be taken in faith by him, and that he has no ability to voice disagreement because he cannot dream to be allowed "into the fold". To which I blew up at. Does he not understand the scientific process? No one other than the very few people studying a very specific thing can really dream to understand the science behind it. That's what PhDs and research is about. Those few people who understand review and check everything other laboratories try to publish. There is nothing mystical, there is nothing you must take in faith. ARRRRAGHH!
41
Lanza was programmed by the CIA and personally shook Obamas hand a few days before Operation Grabber went into effect.
42
Conspiracy theory is a sort of folk philosophy; it fills the void that religion left.
"never met anyone involved in the massacre so I had no way of knowing if it actually happened" Is he taking intro to philosophy as an elective at the local c.c.? Sounds kind of brain in a vat-esque to me. Of course the in-vogue question these days is "DO WE LIVE IN A SIMULATION?" which is weirdly probable when you get down to it. It appears that the batman shooter was deeply interested in these ideas; professionally and philosophically [as was Ted Kaszinsky as evidenced in his fringe but sound arguments]
This stuff is only gonna get worse people; as society becomes increasingly shallow and materialistic and less community based and self reliant.
The chickens coming home to roost y'all! I advocate pulling out the troops metaphorically and literally. Let half the states [the dumber ones] regress back to deep red and watch the other half progress at a break neck pace. Its so inhumane to poke these angry knuckle draggers [or fucking idiots as the author calls them] with sticks; why not let em' go? Eventually you will agree with me; what else can be done? Try to make the argument that things are not getting worse for the majority of people in our society; and spare me the racial argument [there's more black guys in prison right now in the US than there were enslaved at the height of slavery.]
"never met anyone involved in the massacre so I had no way of knowing if it actually happened" Is he taking intro to philosophy as an elective at the local c.c.? Sounds kind of brain in a vat-esque to me. Of course the in-vogue question these days is "DO WE LIVE IN A SIMULATION?" which is weirdly probable when you get down to it. It appears that the batman shooter was deeply interested in these ideas; professionally and philosophically [as was Ted Kaszinsky as evidenced in his fringe but sound arguments]
This stuff is only gonna get worse people; as society becomes increasingly shallow and materialistic and less community based and self reliant.
The chickens coming home to roost y'all! I advocate pulling out the troops metaphorically and literally. Let half the states [the dumber ones] regress back to deep red and watch the other half progress at a break neck pace. Its so inhumane to poke these angry knuckle draggers [or fucking idiots as the author calls them] with sticks; why not let em' go? Eventually you will agree with me; what else can be done? Try to make the argument that things are not getting worse for the majority of people in our society; and spare me the racial argument [there's more black guys in prison right now in the US than there were enslaved at the height of slavery.]
45
@33
Wait, so you seriously believe that Wal-Mart is planting these theories so they can sell guns? Your conspiracy theory sucks.
Anyways, I'm nervous that some of my coworkers believe this stuff. In fact, one of them fits the "I'm smarter than most I know things you don't" mold perfectly. I'm pretty sure he reads those weird conspiracy sites, too. Hmmm. Better keep all conversation centered on work.
Wait, so you seriously believe that Wal-Mart is planting these theories so they can sell guns? Your conspiracy theory sucks.
Anyways, I'm nervous that some of my coworkers believe this stuff. In fact, one of them fits the "I'm smarter than most I know things you don't" mold perfectly. I'm pretty sure he reads those weird conspiracy sites, too. Hmmm. Better keep all conversation centered on work.
47
@44
They believe in things like crystals, homeopathy, and Buddhist monks hat sustain themselves for months on prayer.
They believe in things like crystals, homeopathy, and Buddhist monks hat sustain themselves for months on prayer.
48
@47 - And don't forget: Big Pharma doesn't want you to know about [completely ineffective, useless bullshit] because if people found out about [bullshit], all the diseases would be cured, and nobody would need their medicine any more.
49
The only thing to say to someone who believes this garbage is, "You're an imbecile. I can see why you're afraid the government is going to take all your guns. You're not fit to own one."
51
Well I wouldn't say that it's a good idea to burn bridges with friends who believe in whack conspiracy theories, because that could mean more isolation for people who are veering into crazyland. but yeah, sheesh, talk sense into them! this conspiracy theory even sounds far less believable than the 9/11 truther conspiracy theories, because we're talking about a whole small town of average people making shit up, over an incident that impacts their lives forever as well as this country. Not a neocon cabal of imperialist oilmen and military industrial complex spooks staging a conspiracy from within the administration of a man whose grandfather did in fact work with Nazis.
I would like to have a long conversation with anyone who believes this shooting was a conspiracy theory. I've believed in, or have been open to, some conspiracy theories before. But this? Hell no. I'm not even surprised that it happened. With all the untreated mentally ill folks in this country (most of whom are more subject to violent attacks than actually being violent) and all the goddamn guns we have sitting around, and violence celebrated all throughout this culture, it is no surprise. There will probably be another massacre somewhere in this country next week whether or not it involves a bunch of kids.
Obama derangement syndrome is fucking up toooooons of people in this country and it's rather sad, seriously. People who honestly believe the USA is finished thanks to Obamacare, the Obama czars, and these new gun regulations. Has this country ever been so freaked out by the non-existent secret agenda of a US president before?
I would like to have a long conversation with anyone who believes this shooting was a conspiracy theory. I've believed in, or have been open to, some conspiracy theories before. But this? Hell no. I'm not even surprised that it happened. With all the untreated mentally ill folks in this country (most of whom are more subject to violent attacks than actually being violent) and all the goddamn guns we have sitting around, and violence celebrated all throughout this culture, it is no surprise. There will probably be another massacre somewhere in this country next week whether or not it involves a bunch of kids.
Obama derangement syndrome is fucking up toooooons of people in this country and it's rather sad, seriously. People who honestly believe the USA is finished thanks to Obamacare, the Obama czars, and these new gun regulations. Has this country ever been so freaked out by the non-existent secret agenda of a US president before?
52
When confidence in political institutions is as low as it is at present ( http://www.gallup.com/poll/1597/confiden… ) conspiracy theorists find fertile ground. Working to establish a representative and functional government would likely be more effective than debating conspiracy theorists.
54
@40 This idea, that scientists are like the high priests of a religion called science, is implicit behind a lot of the stuff creationists have to say.
I think it's like this -- the scientific method was an astonishing leap forward in human development, and if you truly understand it, then you get why science is different from religion, magic, superstition, folk customs, and anything else that came before it. But if you don't get it -- you don't even get what it is you're not getting. It's a Dunning-Kruger effect.
I think it's like this -- the scientific method was an astonishing leap forward in human development, and if you truly understand it, then you get why science is different from religion, magic, superstition, folk customs, and anything else that came before it. But if you don't get it -- you don't even get what it is you're not getting. It's a Dunning-Kruger effect.
55
I'm not saying it didn't happen, but to blindly sit there and believe everything you see on TV...? That seems stupid to me. To deny it in it's entirety is not productive, but to ask questions about the fact surrounding the case does NOT make you an asshole. If anything, not asking questions about anything you see on the news DOES make you an asshole. Everyone seems so quick to dismiss these people as "stupid" and "conservative fuck-wads", if it was something you were curious about and you asked questions, would you first go into the bathroom, look in the mirror and call you're self a dick? It's easy to look over the fence and mock the other side, but if they're valid question, being dismissive like you all seem to be, is unfair.
56
@55 THANK YOU! This whole string of comments is comical. I am personally strongly planted in the middle. I know there are people that believe everything is a conspiracy; and I can see here that there are people that believe EVERYTHING the gov't tells them. As hateful as you all say the conspiracy theorists are, aren't you also being the same way?? You talk about advancement, yet your tolerance is non-existent. You complain and push for tolerance and acceptance, yet you have none. When neither side has FACTS that prove a BELIEF, how can you argue one over the other? Why don't you all get involved in an intelligent discussion rather than sit here and bash people.
Comments (56) RSS