Slog Comments
SL Letter of the Day: A Failure to Communicate
1
Disagree with point #1.
Whatever city you live in, there are plenty of people around who you don't work with to fuck. If anything ever goes sideways with this hook up, you do not want to have to avoid somebody at work. Heck, even just being blunt about your intentions could have this negative result. Also, what if she turns out to be a psycho or a gossip? Your workplace can quickly turn into somewhere you don't want to be or worse somewhere you can't do your job effectively.
Make friends with her, keep getting invited to her parties and use them to meet other hot lesbians.
Whatever city you live in, there are plenty of people around who you don't work with to fuck. If anything ever goes sideways with this hook up, you do not want to have to avoid somebody at work. Heck, even just being blunt about your intentions could have this negative result. Also, what if she turns out to be a psycho or a gossip? Your workplace can quickly turn into somewhere you don't want to be or worse somewhere you can't do your job effectively.
Make friends with her, keep getting invited to her parties and use them to meet other hot lesbians.
2
Hmm. I like the advice that the way to subtly bring up that you would be potentially available is to come out to a possible target as bi and open, rather than to make any enquiries about the other people's relationship and preferences. When someone earnestly believes they are not putting out a "come fuck me" vibe (and many assume the existence of a spouse or partner makes that obvious), having that ignored by someone you will see again is pretty hard to pretend didn't happen.
I don't like the advice that there's nothing wrong with hitting on your co-workers: there is, in that you cannot escape each other if things go badly. After you discover they're crazy is too late.
I realize Dan is big into out poly and m-ish behavior right now, but for a lot of people it does not make sense to be out to everyone, especially co-workers. It has a very real potential to sound like you view Bob from accounting as a good source of sending potential hook-ups your way, which is probably the last thing he intended to add to his docket.
I don't like the advice that there's nothing wrong with hitting on your co-workers: there is, in that you cannot escape each other if things go badly. After you discover they're crazy is too late.
I realize Dan is big into out poly and m-ish behavior right now, but for a lot of people it does not make sense to be out to everyone, especially co-workers. It has a very real potential to sound like you view Bob from accounting as a good source of sending potential hook-ups your way, which is probably the last thing he intended to add to his docket.
3
1
2
get real
its all about the sex.
and this is Gommorah....
job? spouse? kids?
so what.
its. all. about. the. sex.
2
get real
its all about the sex.
and this is Gommorah....
job? spouse? kids?
so what.
its. all. about. the. sex.
5
How about starting by going to lunch together, and at some point, when you see another good-looking woman, lean toward the coworker and say something about how hot the other one is and see where things go from there?
6
4. No, there's not an expectation. But if you're into a gay girl or you think she's into you, you should let her know you're into girls.
7
@2 -- Yeah, I don't think it's necessary or professional to be out to your co-workers about whether you're monogamish or not -- how is that any of their business? A workplace is not the setting to divulge your kinks.
8
She should just say "I think you're cute" and wait for a response. If she gets no response, drop it.
9
Didn't "sexy sapphic hookups" go out with Vita Sackville-West? Whatever I might or might think about the conduct within her relationship of any Sapphist who took the LW up on her offer, I'd probably think rather worse or her taste. And yes, Ms Cute, this is inspired by Elizabeth Bennet's telling Jane, when Jane suggests that perhaps Charlotte Lucas actually feels some affection for Mr Collins, that if she believed that, she would only think worse of Charlotte's understanding than she currently did of her heart.
But, if the LW is to be advised in all good faith, I'd suggest that it be done with a bit of style. The LW should take to reading Orlando. Just the ticket.
But, if the LW is to be advised in all good faith, I'd suggest that it be done with a bit of style. The LW should take to reading Orlando. Just the ticket.
10
Mr. Ven,
I actually appreciated "sexy sapphic hookups" as opposed to "hot lesbian action." But since I'm teaching Austen right now (though not P&P), I also appreciated your nod to her.
I actually appreciated "sexy sapphic hookups" as opposed to "hot lesbian action." But since I'm teaching Austen right now (though not P&P), I also appreciated your nod to her.
12
"Coworker" is different than "supervisor".
"Supervisor" or "underling" precludes flirting, dating and fucking.
"Coworker", "peer" or "in an entirely different department" is fair game.
We spend more waking hours at work than in any other venue. If you won't date/fuck/marry your co-workers, you greatly diminish your chances of finding a good match.
I don't regret dating any of the work-peers I dated. I'm glad I passed on passes from women I supervised or who were clients.
"Supervisor" or "underling" precludes flirting, dating and fucking.
"Coworker", "peer" or "in an entirely different department" is fair game.
We spend more waking hours at work than in any other venue. If you won't date/fuck/marry your co-workers, you greatly diminish your chances of finding a good match.
I don't regret dating any of the work-peers I dated. I'm glad I passed on passes from women I supervised or who were clients.
14
Some workplaces frown on that sort of thing. Might want to check your HR website before proceeding.
Practically all workplaces frown on it severely where there is a chain of command conflict. It's way too much potential for a harrassment lawsuit (possibly from a third worker who detects a quid-pro-quo situation).
Finally, as other have said, if it eventually goes sour, you will have to deal with the awkwardness every day at work. Only you can tell whether that dissuades you.
Practically all workplaces frown on it severely where there is a chain of command conflict. It's way too much potential for a harrassment lawsuit (possibly from a third worker who detects a quid-pro-quo situation).
Finally, as other have said, if it eventually goes sour, you will have to deal with the awkwardness every day at work. Only you can tell whether that dissuades you.
15
@1: Your workplace can quickly turn into somewhere you don't want to be
Your point is valid, but it's also overly fixated on worst case scenarios, and the logic could just as easily be used to exclude dorm-mates, friends, or anyone you'd regularly encounter after a break up.
Back in grad school, fellow grad students paired off with each other all the time. Some broke up, some (including myself) ended up married. I don't recall anyone going psycho on someone else after a break up, and if they had, they would have been highly stigmatized for it.
Proximity more than anything else predicts likelihood of forming relationships, and for many people, proximity means your coworkers. Not everyone has the time or extroversion to cast about for potential mates among strangers.
Your point is valid, but it's also overly fixated on worst case scenarios, and the logic could just as easily be used to exclude dorm-mates, friends, or anyone you'd regularly encounter after a break up.
Back in grad school, fellow grad students paired off with each other all the time. Some broke up, some (including myself) ended up married. I don't recall anyone going psycho on someone else after a break up, and if they had, they would have been highly stigmatized for it.
Proximity more than anything else predicts likelihood of forming relationships, and for many people, proximity means your coworkers. Not everyone has the time or extroversion to cast about for potential mates among strangers.
16
It sounds from this person's letter that her coworker and coworker's GF have picked up on the attraction at at least some level. Hetero chicks are known for their girlcrushes, at least. However, that doesn't mean that they'd be cool with a hookup. They might just be having fun flirting with the presumably hetero girl and not intending things to go further.
Still, a polite and upfront "So I have this arrangement with my husband" might be in order. Based on said coworker's response to that, a "Do you have a similar one with your girlfriend; I am asking for non-hypothetical reasons" may be this LW's best option.
As for workplace romances. Yes, they can mess things up, but not everyone has places other than work to meet people.
Still, a polite and upfront "So I have this arrangement with my husband" might be in order. Based on said coworker's response to that, a "Do you have a similar one with your girlfriend; I am asking for non-hypothetical reasons" may be this LW's best option.
As for workplace romances. Yes, they can mess things up, but not everyone has places other than work to meet people.
17
@15: I've heard of undergraduates advising/begging their floor-mates not to date other people on the floor, because then you always run into them afterward and everyone else is sick of the drama. Not that it has to happen, but that it happens often enough to generate a "You really didn't see how this could go wrong?" And groups of friends sometimes have messy him-or-me breakups, but they don't involve everyone in your office concluding you're a hot mess.
She's not looking for a potential mate in the marriage partner sense, because she has one. She's looking for a potential hot secondary hook-up that would not result in any ongoing uncomfortableness despite the presence of two long-term relationships. That might be worth at least going outside the department.
I like @1's suggestion that she make friends with hot lesbian co-worker as a way to possibly break into some local lesbian social circles.
Best case: Hot three-way happens.
Worst case: Co-worker dubs her that freaky open marriage chick who hits on happily partnered people.
She's not looking for a potential mate in the marriage partner sense, because she has one. She's looking for a potential hot secondary hook-up that would not result in any ongoing uncomfortableness despite the presence of two long-term relationships. That might be worth at least going outside the department.
I like @1's suggestion that she make friends with hot lesbian co-worker as a way to possibly break into some local lesbian social circles.
Best case: Hot three-way happens.
Worst case: Co-worker dubs her that freaky open marriage chick who hits on happily partnered people.
18
"sexy sapphic hookups" sounds like a respectful women's erotica zine from the 90s.
Good luck to her though. Agree that she should not proposition her, but should instead just say that she's bi and in an open relationship w/ the husband. No need to go further than that.
re the party: I do think sometimes that lesbians seem like they're flirting w/ straight women but it's only because we're used to falling into those patterns w/ women; actual flirting w/ another lesbian or out bi girl would feel different, w/ actual intent behind it.
Good luck to her though. Agree that she should not proposition her, but should instead just say that she's bi and in an open relationship w/ the husband. No need to go further than that.
re the party: I do think sometimes that lesbians seem like they're flirting w/ straight women but it's only because we're used to falling into those patterns w/ women; actual flirting w/ another lesbian or out bi girl would feel different, w/ actual intent behind it.
19
@15: I'd hope that 2 women in LTRs in their late 20s would be less dramaphilic than college dorm kids. I know that's not always true, but...
20
There's a careful balancing act when it comes to the workplace, which is often dependent on how big your workplace is and who your coworkers are. I have hooked up with 2 of my coworkers, but no one knows about it. My workplace, overall, is over 100 people and those two know how to be discreet (plus, it was YEARS ago).
On the flip side, within my group, we have a gay man. I always suspected as much, and he knows that ALL of us are supporters, but he never "came out" to us...until a few months ago, when we were all at happy hour and he casually mentioned his boyfriend in passing. Our GROUP within the office is small and he's rigidly professional...so it took him over 3 years to even drop a mention of the BF. Of course, none of us flinched at the mention of a *boy*friend, so hopefully he'll finally decide to bring him around. We all bring our SO's around for stuff, and I would hope that, considering this seems to be something long-term, he would feel he could do the same (if he wants to, of course).
You just need to read your office culture properly. Some offices frown upon co-workers even being off-the-clock friends while others embrace anything and everything. And if it's non-traditional, I wouldn't flaunt it. No making out in the copy room and such.
On the flip side, within my group, we have a gay man. I always suspected as much, and he knows that ALL of us are supporters, but he never "came out" to us...until a few months ago, when we were all at happy hour and he casually mentioned his boyfriend in passing. Our GROUP within the office is small and he's rigidly professional...so it took him over 3 years to even drop a mention of the BF. Of course, none of us flinched at the mention of a *boy*friend, so hopefully he'll finally decide to bring him around. We all bring our SO's around for stuff, and I would hope that, considering this seems to be something long-term, he would feel he could do the same (if he wants to, of course).
You just need to read your office culture properly. Some offices frown upon co-workers even being off-the-clock friends while others embrace anything and everything. And if it's non-traditional, I wouldn't flaunt it. No making out in the copy room and such.
21
Regarding the answer to Question 1, many jurisdictions (all of Canada, perhaps some states in the US) consider sexual advances on co-workers to be sexual harassment even if they happen off hours and off work premises. If the co-worker goes to HR with a complaint, you might find your whole office in the boardroom getting a day-long HR lecture and video presentation on harassment in the workplace.
22
I think she'd definitely get more pussy if she were out about being bi and open. It makes a world of difference to be out. When I was in the closet at work in a starched white-collar job, *nobody* was giving off vibes. But when I come out to the whole fucking building, (and I swoon to think of it now) I got some very hot dick waved in my direction - yeah, always on the sly but (yeah, again) right there at work. One of them was my cold-as-ice boss and the other was the **hottest** man in 20 states who worked in another department. My! How word got out! I ended up 69ing with both of these very, very married guys several times by stopping the elevator between floors and getting it ON.
The upside was that I finally had some allies at work I could count on. The modest downside was that I found out who the homophobes were and a couple of them were people I really liked and who liked me as long as I was in the closet. Fuck them. Out was way, way better. Don't round of your bi side to straight. You'll end up in an insane asylum.
The upside was that I finally had some allies at work I could count on. The modest downside was that I found out who the homophobes were and a couple of them were people I really liked and who liked me as long as I was in the closet. Fuck them. Out was way, way better. Don't round of your bi side to straight. You'll end up in an insane asylum.
23
So based on Dan's answer to #4, is it wrong of me to treat my occasional attraction to woman as a fetish, and have only spoken to it at any depth with my boyfriend? Why does everyone need to know that the writer is bi?
I see how this is holding back the gay agenda (I am seriously not trying to be snarky here), by me putting a stigma on my perceived bi-ness and not wanting to tell everyone. Is that why Dan is telling her to be out about it?
I see how this is holding back the gay agenda (I am seriously not trying to be snarky here), by me putting a stigma on my perceived bi-ness and not wanting to tell everyone. Is that why Dan is telling her to be out about it?
24
@23. Advising bi people to come out is not about furthering the "gay agenda," it is about making life easier for the presumed hetero, partnered bi people out there. Yes, coming out removes the stigma- and the assumptions of others.
25
Back in grad school, fellow grad students paired off with each other all the time.
Grad school ain't work. No one's got any power in grad school.
Grad school ain't work. No one's got any power in grad school.
26
Bi married people should only come out if they are looking for same-sex extramarital action. Because there is only way people are going to perceive a married woman who runs around advertising, "Hey, I'm attracted to chicks, too!"
27
Based on a few dumbass cases I have seen in the past I want her to proposition her co-worker AND I want it to blow up. Why? Because I really want to see the tense HR rep to curl up in a fetal position sucking her thumb when, after defaulting to firing the man finds out there isn't a man.
28
@milemarker: Most compelling case for coming out ever. Makes me wish I had a closet to come out of.
29
The LW might be a little devious and honestly curious at the same time. The party would have been a good opportunity to ask both the crush and her partner something like: how do you make a long-distance relationship work, which could lead to a discussion about monogamy. Assuming encouraging responses, the LW could then ask if they hook up with bi women like her.
The line of questioning still works with the crush alone, but it still could leave open that question of whether both partners know they are in an open relationship.
The line of questioning still works with the crush alone, but it still could leave open that question of whether both partners know they are in an open relationship.
30
@27 that *would* be amusing.
However, I'm another who wouldn't hook up w/ a collegue. In fact, post-divorce, I had a rule for myself that placed my potential or current 3 C's -- client, contractor, or collegue -- off-limits. Yes, it was a little limiting. But, although Marie and Pierre Curie even shared a lab, I didn't think I was cut out for that much closeness. Not to mention that I really didn't want to find out how everyone else around me might take it. We also have a somewhat fluid management structure within my job category. Sometimes I'm managing people who have managed me on other jobs. Sometimes who the Proj Mgr is is determined by our skill set, not our rank. Sometimes it is determined by who wrote up the proposal. So, today's collegue could be tomorrow's boss. Potentially messy. I don't like mess.
Funnily enough, though, I had and have plenty of action. And I get to *still* enjoy sexual tension that everyone is keeping under wraps in the office. ;-)
However, I'm another who wouldn't hook up w/ a collegue. In fact, post-divorce, I had a rule for myself that placed my potential or current 3 C's -- client, contractor, or collegue -- off-limits. Yes, it was a little limiting. But, although Marie and Pierre Curie even shared a lab, I didn't think I was cut out for that much closeness. Not to mention that I really didn't want to find out how everyone else around me might take it. We also have a somewhat fluid management structure within my job category. Sometimes I'm managing people who have managed me on other jobs. Sometimes who the Proj Mgr is is determined by our skill set, not our rank. Sometimes it is determined by who wrote up the proposal. So, today's collegue could be tomorrow's boss. Potentially messy. I don't like mess.
Funnily enough, though, I had and have plenty of action. And I get to *still* enjoy sexual tension that everyone is keeping under wraps in the office. ;-)
31
Ms Cute - Perhaps, but your perspective is that of a woman with a male partner. Even if we were to remove all trace of the LW describing her extracurricular activities as if the entire purpose for the existence of lesbians were nothing more than to replace the spice in heterosexual relationships, I'm not sure all that many lesbians would be gung ho about the label. At least they wouldn't have been in my time. Perhaps things are different.
But I thank the LW for exemplifying so neatly the mindset that we're all straight-chasers at heart. It's unfortunate that it's not much more rare to see such a sense of entitlement.
But I thank the LW for exemplifying so neatly the mindset that we're all straight-chasers at heart. It's unfortunate that it's not much more rare to see such a sense of entitlement.
32
@ 1 you are absolutely right. "Don't cook in the bathroom don't shit in the kitchen," my sainted mother always said. And I have never heard a business owner or office manager state that he or she approved of it, either. As for the HR department, they absolutely don't want coworkers dating. Given all that, I's say questions 2 3 and 4 are moot.
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